Re: [lojban] CCL and xorlo
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.arpis.
Sep 19, 2012, 11:53:00 AM9/19/12
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I'll take a stab at a response.
The people actively contributing to the lojban community are, for the most part, volunteers who are busy with their (paying) jobs, updating the document is a herculean effort, and there are other updates besides xorlo that need to be made; because of this, progress can sometimes be slow, especially since the amount of effort that is not immediately apparent is easy to underestimate.
The increase in popularity you suggest probably comes at too high a cost for little gain: an unfinished/imperfect language that has become popular tends to be less amenable to fixing (the Java programming language is an extreme example), and the people who join the community as a result of fashion are exceedingly unlikely to actually contribute any significant effort.
Regardless, modern learning materials _are_ a priority of the community. I haven't read through them, but the wave lessons seem to be very detailed now: http://www.lojban.org/tiki/wavelessonscontinued
I learned from reading the CLL (here: http://dag.github.com/cll/) and I had no issues adjusting to xorlo (especially using this reference: http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+Section%3A+gadri); basically wherever you see {le} and {lo}, take it with a grain of salt.
--
mu'o mi'e .arpis.
The people actively contributing to the lojban community are, for the most part, volunteers who are busy with their (paying) jobs, updating the document is a herculean effort, and there are other updates besides xorlo that need to be made; because of this, progress can sometimes be slow, especially since the amount of effort that is not immediately apparent is easy to underestimate.
The increase in popularity you suggest probably comes at too high a cost for little gain: an unfinished/imperfect language that has become popular tends to be less amenable to fixing (the Java programming language is an extreme example), and the people who join the community as a result of fashion are exceedingly unlikely to actually contribute any significant effort.
Regardless, modern learning materials _are_ a priority of the community. I haven't read through them, but the wave lessons seem to be very detailed now: http://www.lojban.org/tiki/wavelessonscontinued
I learned from reading the CLL (here: http://dag.github.com/cll/) and I had no issues adjusting to xorlo (especially using this reference: http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+Section%3A+gadri); basically wherever you see {le} and {lo}, take it with a grain of salt.
On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 6:16 AM, <jseme...@gmail.com> wrote:
I was just wondering if anyone is working on updating the CCL (or any learning materials for that matter) to correct for xorlo?
I remember hearing or reading somewhere (for the life of me I can't recall the source) a few days ago that it was being worked on but I've failed to find any information about such a thing. I only ask because I want to try taking a crack at learning lojban again but I'd rather wait until the online CCL thing is updated with xorlo. I find the thought of learning lojban while trying to figure out how it really works with xorlo instead. Leads to me being very confused and frustrated I suppose. So I occasionally click on the lojban website, check to see if the CCL has had xorlo incorporated and it never is so I end it at that. Rinse and repeat.
I really could go through the effort of course, but I'm a weirdo who's mind does not work in his own favor, so I frustrate easily, constantly obsessing over learning it right the first time and not worrying that this xorlo thing. I like learning from the CCL, reading over all the details and quirks of the language, its like a fun language puzzle to me. It makes me think a lot, and makes me want to write stuff and explore this language like an odd puzzle. I'm nerdy like that I suppose. So having one resource without having to mentally wonder wtf is different in actual current lojban use since there seems to be no way to learn lojban post-xorlo like I want. So it seems my two options are: learn lojban as it currently resides within the online reference grammar book thing, then after all that update my knowledge to accommodate the xorlo proposal, or have the xorlo proposal page in another tab (as i've done before) while reading the section of the CCL (I forget the acronym for the online version, my apologies) reading that and switching between the two and rewriting the info to incorporate xorlo. But I seem to lose motivation quite quickly unfortunately due to the daunting task, and remembering that I probably would have to go through the rest of the book as well to update stuff. I don't know, I'm crazy I guess.
Now moving past that rambling nonsense I'll come to my second question, how long ago was this xorlo proposal approved? I don't know about the date but I think its safe to say at least three years, I really don't know however. So why is it in all that time, there seems to have been no attempt (or rather no successful attempts) of changing the learning materials for this xorlo thing? Its a pretty big change in the language, though not too big I suppose. And for a newbie like me at least, seeing this big change and trying to learn with all the materials not using it, is very confusing and for me at least because as previously stated I am crazy, frustrating. Perhaps its a lot of work, in fact I know it is and I am very appreciative to anyone and everyone who has worked on lojban and teaching those curious. And I know there is a lot of work being done right now on aspects of the language, though I don't have much knowledge about what exactly this work is. From what I know its going over cmavo mostly and doing important things like finishing the language but again I'm not quite sure exactly how people are doing that. I'm very glad this is happening and people are doing this, but it seems all the effort is going towards "perfecting" the language which is quite a noble goal, but seems to be taking all the effort away from getting the language to grow. And by that I mean, getting more people to learn lojban and grow the community. The extra interest may lead to extra man power for all of this work I suspect.
Perhaps I'm wrong about all this, I admit I'm not very knowledgeable about the community at the moment. So I was just wondering what's going on with things these days? I'm trying trying to get back into lojban, but I feel as though at the moment that its not worth getting into if the community is divided and/or isn't quite focused on gaining more members to lojban. I'm not stating that is a fact at all, perhaps its exactly the opposite, I'm simply stating what it currently feels like to me at least.
P.S. Thank you for reading and sorry for rambling on too long, I tend to do that when I type late at night lol.
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mu'o mi'e .arpis.
la gleki
Sep 19, 2012, 11:54:01 AM9/19/12
to loj...@googlegroups.com, jseme...@gmail.com
xorlo changed almost nothing. And some even don't want to use {le} anymore.
So you can read on CLL without worrying of any major outdated things. {le} is just used much less. That's all.
Here is the CLL http://dag.github.com/cll/ with some corrections. xorlo is not included there. But there is nothing bad in it. The first link give answers to everything.
Here is the CLL http://dag.github.com/cll/ with some corrections. xorlo is not included there. But there is nothing bad in it. The first link give answers to everything.
Daniel Lyons
Sep 19, 2012, 12:19:14 PM9/19/12
to loj...@googlegroups.com
Hi jsemeria. I'm also new here.
I went through the same thought process. I wound up deciding to just
learn from the CLL for these reasons:
- The CLL is still prominently linked to on lojban.org
- My impression is that getting xorlo wrong amounts to using 'le' instead of 'lo'
- I have a paper copy of CLL
- Waiting is boring
As another outsider, I share some of your frustration, if not at the
same magnitude. I only knew about jbovlaste so I wrote
http://www.7gf.org/lojban/ before I found out about
http://vlasisku.lojban.org/ ; I spent a lot of time wondering what
jboski was up to before I discovered http://genrei.lojban.org/ . In
"figurative" language, the website seems to be "nervous" about linking
to new stuff and so conservatively shunts people to outdated
resources. There seem to be a lot of people working on a lot of
things, but Lojban seems to inspire or attract a certain kind of
perfectionism so progress looks slower than it actually is.
I'm not very community-oriented myself, because I'm just not all that
social. So I'm not learning Lojban in order to participate in the
Lojban community--not that I have anything against that approach, it
just isn't mine, and if it happens, great. I'm just saying, I wouldn't
attach too much importance to the community. In fact, a healthy
language should have multiple communities using it--it's only
dangerous with constructed languages because people will be tempted to
change the language. Assuming that doesn't happen, it should be
positive to have separate communities. One wouldn't expect to create a
single happy homogeneous Biblical Hebrew community that encompasses
everyone--people interested in Biblical Hebrew have personal reasons
for it, and when those reasons don't line up it isn't because there's
something wrong with those people or the language. At best you'd wind
up having very stunted conversations. I think the small magnitude of
the change presented by xorlo really shows how strong Lojban is--even
if you had a separate community that refused to accept it, there would
not be a loss of mutual intelligibility, and both would still be using
the same language in every practical sense, and that's considered the
largest change since CLL.
I guess I'm saying, give yourself permission to learn and use Lojban,
because nobody can stop you. :)
--
Daniel Lyons
I went through the same thought process. I wound up deciding to just
learn from the CLL for these reasons:
- The CLL is still prominently linked to on lojban.org
- My impression is that getting xorlo wrong amounts to using 'le' instead of 'lo'
- I have a paper copy of CLL
- Waiting is boring
As another outsider, I share some of your frustration, if not at the
same magnitude. I only knew about jbovlaste so I wrote
http://www.7gf.org/lojban/ before I found out about
http://vlasisku.lojban.org/ ; I spent a lot of time wondering what
jboski was up to before I discovered http://genrei.lojban.org/ . In
"figurative" language, the website seems to be "nervous" about linking
to new stuff and so conservatively shunts people to outdated
resources. There seem to be a lot of people working on a lot of
things, but Lojban seems to inspire or attract a certain kind of
perfectionism so progress looks slower than it actually is.
I'm not very community-oriented myself, because I'm just not all that
social. So I'm not learning Lojban in order to participate in the
Lojban community--not that I have anything against that approach, it
just isn't mine, and if it happens, great. I'm just saying, I wouldn't
attach too much importance to the community. In fact, a healthy
language should have multiple communities using it--it's only
dangerous with constructed languages because people will be tempted to
change the language. Assuming that doesn't happen, it should be
positive to have separate communities. One wouldn't expect to create a
single happy homogeneous Biblical Hebrew community that encompasses
everyone--people interested in Biblical Hebrew have personal reasons
for it, and when those reasons don't line up it isn't because there's
something wrong with those people or the language. At best you'd wind
up having very stunted conversations. I think the small magnitude of
the change presented by xorlo really shows how strong Lojban is--even
if you had a separate community that refused to accept it, there would
not be a loss of mutual intelligibility, and both would still be using
the same language in every practical sense, and that's considered the
largest change since CLL.
I guess I'm saying, give yourself permission to learn and use Lojban,
because nobody can stop you. :)
Daniel Lyons
Pierre Abbat
Sep 19, 2012, 2:09:14 PM9/19/12
to loj...@googlegroups.com
On Wednesday, September 19, 2012 03:16:47 jseme...@gmail.com wrote:
> I was just wondering if anyone is working on updating the CCL (or any
> learning materials for that matter) to correct for xorlo?
>
> I remember hearing or reading somewhere (for the life of me I can't recall
> the source) a few days ago that it was being worked on but I've failed to
> find any information about such a thing. I only ask because I want to try
> taking a crack at learning lojban again but I'd rather wait until the
> online CCL thing is updated with xorlo. I find the thought of learning
> lojban while trying to figure out how it really works with xorlo instead.
> Leads to me being very confused and frustrated I suppose. So I occasionally
> click on the lojban website, check to see if the CCL has had xorlo
> incorporated and it never is so I end it at that. Rinse and repeat.
Xorlo changes only the semantics and usage of articles. The syntax is not
> I was just wondering if anyone is working on updating the CCL (or any
> learning materials for that matter) to correct for xorlo?
>
> I remember hearing or reading somewhere (for the life of me I can't recall
> the source) a few days ago that it was being worked on but I've failed to
> find any information about such a thing. I only ask because I want to try
> taking a crack at learning lojban again but I'd rather wait until the
> online CCL thing is updated with xorlo. I find the thought of learning
> lojban while trying to figure out how it really works with xorlo instead.
> Leads to me being very confused and frustrated I suppose. So I occasionally
> click on the lojban website, check to see if the CCL has had xorlo
> incorporated and it never is so I end it at that. Rinse and repeat.
changed at all.
Other changes you may want to be aware of are:
*Dotside: you put a dot on each side of a cmevla, and you can say "la
.xavilat." instead of "la xavilot." (some place mentioned early in Genesis)
and "la .labruk." or "la .belarus." instead of "la blabruk". "la .xavilot."
and "la .blabruk." are still valid.
*Phonotactic changes: You have to worry about this only if you're going to
coin fu'ivla (which I do a fair bit). The words "mliau" (to meow), "cionmau"
(panda), "kriofla" (the spice clove), and "tarksako" (dandelion) may or may not
be valid, depending on which rules are chosen. The CLL is not entirely clear
on this.
None of this should keep you from learning Lojban, any more than having a
French book in the previous version of the orthography. You know not to eat
cigüe et ognons, even if it's spelled "ciguë et oignons". (Cigüe is poisonous
and easily confused with carotte.)
Pierre
--
The Black Garden on the Mountain is not on the Black Mountain.
MorphemeAddict
Sep 19, 2012, 2:59:50 PM9/19/12
to loj...@googlegroups.com
On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 12:19 PM, Daniel Lyons <fus...@storytotell.org> wrote:
Hi jsemeria. I'm also new here.
I went through the same thought process. I wound up deciding to just
learn from the CLL for these reasons:
- The CLL is still prominently linked to on lojban.org
- My impression is that getting xorlo wrong amounts to using 'le' instead of 'lo'
- I have a paper copy of CLL
- Waiting is boring
As another outsider, I share some of your frustration, if not at the
same magnitude. I only knew about jbovlaste so I wrote
http://www.7gf.org/lojban/ before I found out about
http://vlasisku.lojban.org/ ;
Looking at the cloud of selma'o (grammatical classes) at vlasisku makes me wonder. Is there any way to drastically reduce the number of selma'o?
stevo
Daniel Lyons
Sep 19, 2012, 3:13:19 PM9/19/12
to loj...@googlegroups.com
BE - be
BEI - bei
BEhO - be'o
All three of those are basically one concept.
--
Daniel Lyons
selpa'i
Sep 19, 2012, 3:14:17 PM9/19/12
to loj...@googlegroups.com
Am 19.09.2012 20:59, schrieb MorphemeAddict:
> Looking at the cloud of selma'o (grammatical classes) at vlasisku
> makes me wonder. Is there any way to drastically reduce the number of
> selma'o?
There are some ways to reduce it a little bit, for example merging lots
> Looking at the cloud of selma'o (grammatical classes) at vlasisku
> makes me wonder. Is there any way to drastically reduce the number of
> selma'o?
of connective selma'o (JOI, JA, VUhU) and removing some "unncessary"
ones like CAI and NAI and RAhO and moving them all to UI etc. But you'd
still end up with a high number of selma'o I think. Another way to get
rid of a lot of selma'o is to use grammatical tone, like gua\spi. That
language only has five selma'o.
mu'o mi'e la selpa'i
--
pilno zo le xu .i lo dei bangu cu se cmene zo lojbo .e nai zo lejbo
doị mèlbi mlenì'u
.i do càtlu ki'u
ma fe la xàmpre ŭu
.i do tìnsa càrmi
gi'e sìrji se tàrmi
.i taị bo pu cìtka lo gràna ku
MorphemeAddict
Sep 19, 2012, 3:43:26 PM9/19/12
to loj...@googlegroups.com
On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 3:14 PM, selpa'i <sel...@gmx.de> wrote:
Am 19.09.2012 20:59, schrieb MorphemeAddict:There are some ways to reduce it a little bit, for example merging lots of connective selma'o (JOI, JA, VUhU) and removing some "unncessary" ones like CAI and NAI and RAhO and moving them all to UI etc. But you'd still end up with a high number of selma'o I think. Another way to get rid of a lot of selma'o is to use grammatical tone, like gua\spi. That language only has five selma'o.
Looking at the cloud of selma'o (grammatical classes) at vlasisku makes me wonder. Is there any way to drastically reduce the number of selma'o?
This tinkering with the selma'o would result in an insignificant reduction in their number. Gua\spi may get by with only five 'selma'o', but it's not just because it uses tones.
The large number of Lojban selma'o strikes me as way overblown.
stevo
mu'o mi'e la selpa'i
--
pilno zo le xu .i lo dei bangu cu se cmene zo lojbo .e nai zo lejbo
doị mèlbi mlenì'u
.i do càtlu ki'u
ma fe la xàmpre ŭu
.i do tìnsa càrmi
gi'e sìrji se tàrmi
.i taị bo pu cìtka lo gràna ku
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Jacob Errington
Sep 19, 2012, 3:52:25 PM9/19/12
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I recall reading once a post by xorxes I think, reducing the selma'o into a handful, although if I recall correctly, it was pretty drastic.
.i mi'e la tsani mu'o
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John E. Clifford
Sep 19, 2012, 4:46:52 PM9/19/12
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Although it is inappropriate to mention to someone just starting on Lojban, there is the developing Xorban over on engelang group, which, so far, has very few selma'o and seems set up to avoid the need for many of the seemingly redundant ones in Lojban.
Sent from my iPad
Sent from my iPad
John E Clifford
Sep 19, 2012, 5:09:19 PM9/19/12
to loj...@googlegroups.com
Pretty much, but it might simplify the rules a bit.
From: "jseme...@gmail.com" <jseme...@gmail.com>
To: loj...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2012 4:04 PM
Subject: Re: [lojban] CCL and xorlo
From: "jseme...@gmail.com" <jseme...@gmail.com>
To: loj...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2012 4:04 PM
Subject: Re: [lojban] CCL and xorlo
Thanks to everyone for the responses, I suppose I'm just getting in my own way when it comes to diving into learning as always.
What parts of the language are being "perfected" since it seems the language currently is good enough so that trying to gain more people that are interested would only help the language. Rather than focusing years and years on trying to "perfect" it which will never happen, no language is perfect. Right now I'd prefer seeing a focus on getting newbies to join and get interested so that they may help since at this rate with our current workforce, it seems it'll take decades before its finally "done". There just seems to be too much "work" and not enough people. So again I wonder, what parts of the language are needing so much effort? Then again that's just my opinion again, I've done no work for the language so its speculation on my part.
Also why reduce the amount of selma'o? With my limited knowledge, I assume selma'o are just the names given to the different cmavo groups so, even if you did reduce the number of selma'o the amount of cmavo would stay the same correct?
What parts of the language are being "perfected" since it seems the language currently is good enough so that trying to gain more people that are interested would only help the language. Rather than focusing years and years on trying to "perfect" it which will never happen, no language is perfect. Right now I'd prefer seeing a focus on getting newbies to join and get interested so that they may help since at this rate with our current workforce, it seems it'll take decades before its finally "done". There just seems to be too much "work" and not enough people. So again I wonder, what parts of the language are needing so much effort? Then again that's just my opinion again, I've done no work for the language so its speculation on my part.
Also why reduce the amount of selma'o? With my limited knowledge, I assume selma'o are just the names given to the different cmavo groups so, even if you did reduce the number of selma'o the amount of cmavo would stay the same correct?
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selpa'i
Sep 19, 2012, 5:10:19 PM9/19/12
to loj...@googlegroups.com
Am 19.09.2012 23:04, schrieb jseme...@gmail.com:
> Also why reduce the amount of selma'o? With my limited knowledge, I
> assume selma'o are just the names given to the different cmavo groups
> so, even if you did reduce the number of selma'o the amount of cmavo
> would stay the same correct?
I think he was just asking a hypothetical question. Still, some people
> Also why reduce the amount of selma'o? With my limited knowledge, I
> assume selma'o are just the names given to the different cmavo groups
> so, even if you did reduce the number of selma'o the amount of cmavo
> would stay the same correct?
believe that fewer selma'o means fewer rules, which is true. The
grammatical complexity is reduced. The amount of cmavo more or less
stays the same, unless one is removed for some reason or another one is
added (more likely).
.arpis.
Sep 19, 2012, 11:52:04 PM9/19/12
to loj...@googlegroups.com
On the other hand, there are also good reasons for _more_ selma'o, like that proposal for splitting PA so that some nonsensical numbers become ungrammatical.
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