Baby words: "be careful of X"

[Robin Lee Powell]

I don't see a good way to do this as a bridi. {kajde} isn't use,
it's mention; that is, {kajde} isn't warning someone, it's talking
about someone having been warned. I don't see anything else good.

Ideas?

The specific example was "Be carefull pulling on that toy; it's
going to spring back and hit you and that will hurt".

-Robin

--
http://singinst.org/ : Our last, best hope for a fantastic future.
.i ko na cpedu lo nu stidi vau loi jbopre .i danfu lu na go'i li'u .e
lu go'i li'u .i ji'a go'i lu na'e go'i li'u .e lu go'i na'i li'u .e
lu no'e go'i li'u .e lu to'e go'i li'u .e lu lo mamta be do cu sofybakni li'u

[Jonathan Jones]

Well, there's {.eu'nai ko'a ckape}....

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--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

[Arnt Richard Johansen]

On Tue, May 01, 2012 at 10:09:27PM -0700, Robin Lee Powell wrote:
>
> I don't see a good way to do this as a bridi. {kajde} isn't use,
> it's mention; that is, {kajde} isn't warning someone, it's talking
> about someone having been warned. I don't see anything else good.
>
> Ideas?
>
> The specific example was "Be carefull pulling on that toy; it's
> going to spring back and hit you and that will hurt".

A reasonably precise rendition might be ralci+tarti or ralci+pilno.

But for small children I'd probably say “ckape” and leave it at that. :-D

--
Arnt Richard Johansen http://arj.nvg.org/
Leser «Catcher in the Rye». Skal bli fint å bli ferdig med den så jeg
får litt mer dopapir. --Erling Kagge: Alene til Sydpolen

[Jonathan Jones]

On Wed, May 2, 2012 at 2:03 AM, Arnt Richard Johansen <a...@nvg.org> wrote:

On Tue, May 01, 2012 at 10:09:27PM -0700, Robin Lee Powell wrote:
>
> I don't see a good way to do this as a bridi.  {kajde} isn't use,
> it's mention; that is, {kajde} isn't warning someone, it's talking
> about someone having been warned.  I don't see anything else good.
>
> Ideas?
>
> The specific example was "Be carefull pulling on that toy; it's
> going to spring back and hit you and that will hurt".

A reasonably precise rendition might be ralci+tarti or ralci+pilno.

Those both seem to be the wrong sense of "careful" to me.
That is, they mean careful as in "handle with care", not "watch out".
 

But for small children I'd probably say “ckape” and leave it at that. :-D

--
Arnt Richard Johansen                                http://arj.nvg.org/
Leser «Catcher in the Rye». Skal bli fint å bli ferdig med den så jeg
får litt mer dopapir.                 --Erling Kagge: Alene til Sydpolen

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[Arnt Richard Johansen]

On Wed, May 02, 2012 at 03:03:52AM -0600, Jonathan Jones wrote:
> On Wed, May 2, 2012 at 2:03 AM, Arnt Richard Johansen <a...@nvg.org> wrote:
>
> > On Tue, May 01, 2012 at 10:09:27PM -0700, Robin Lee Powell wrote:
> > >
> > > The specific example was "Be carefull pulling on that toy; it's
> > > going to spring back and hit you and that will hurt".
> >
> > A reasonably precise rendition might be ralci+tarti or ralci+pilno.
>
> Those both seem to be the wrong sense of "careful" to me.
> That is, they mean careful as in "handle with care", not "watch out".

As a non-native speaker, I might have been unaware of the subtle shades of meaning of the word “careful” (although even after consulting two dictionaries, I'm not convinced there is a clear distinction between the two).

In any case, taken in context, Robin's example seems more like an exhortation to handle the toy with care, since watching out isn't likely to help – if it does spring back, there won't be enough time to react.

--
Arnt Richard Johansen http://arj.nvg.org/

Please Note: Some Quantum Physics Theories Suggest That When the
Consumer Is Not Directly Observing This Product, It May Cease to Exist
or Will Exist Only in a Vague and Undetermined State.
--Susan Hewitt and Edward Subitzky

[tijlan]

You can be careful of X by paying attention to X's potentials, so
{jundi} is an option. "Springing back and hitting you" is a
possibility allowed by the toy's structure, so you pay attention to
that structure: ko jundi (tu'a) lo stura.

If you shouldn't pull on the toy at all, you don't even jundi, you
just don't do the pulling: ko na lacpu.

To a baby, however, I would say simply "ckape".

mu'o

[Jonathan Jones]

On Wed, May 2, 2012 at 3:17 AM, Arnt Richard Johansen <a...@nvg.org> wrote:

On Wed, May 02, 2012 at 03:03:52AM -0600, Jonathan Jones wrote:
> On Wed, May 2, 2012 at 2:03 AM, Arnt Richard Johansen <a...@nvg.org> wrote:
>
> > On Tue, May 01, 2012 at 10:09:27PM -0700, Robin Lee Powell wrote:
> > >

> > > The specific example was "Be carefull pulling on that toy; it's
> > > going to spring back and hit you and that will hurt".
> >
> > A reasonably precise rendition might be ralci+tarti or ralci+pilno.
>
> Those both seem to be the wrong sense of "careful" to me.
> That is, they mean careful as in "handle with care", not "watch out".

As a non-native speaker, I might have been unaware of the subtle shades of meaning of the word “careful” (although even after consulting two dictionaries, I'm not convinced there is a clear distinction between the two).

Well, to elaborate, "Be careful transporting that, it's made of class" means to be careful not to break it- the danger is to the the object. Whereas "Be careful, the stove is hot" means to be careful interacting with it- the danger is to you.

So, basically the difference is whether the person you're talking to is the lo ckape or the lo se ckape, approximately.
 

In any case, taken in context, Robin's example seems more like an exhortation to handle the toy with care, since watching out isn't likely to help – if it does spring back, there won't be enough time to react.

--
Arnt Richard Johansen                                http://arj.nvg.org/

Please Note: Some Quantum Physics Theories Suggest That When the
Consumer Is Not Directly Observing This Product, It May Cease to Exist
or Will Exist Only in a Vague and Undetermined State.
                                   --Susan Hewitt and Edward Subitzky

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[Jonathan Jones]

*glass

[Pierre Abbat]

On Wednesday, May 02, 2012 01:09:27 Robin Lee Powell wrote:
> I don't see a good way to do this as a bridi. {kajde} isn't use,
> it's mention; that is, {kajde} isn't warning someone, it's talking
> about someone having been warned. I don't see anything else good.
>
> Ideas?
>
> The specific example was "Be carefull pulling on that toy; it's
> going to spring back and hit you and that will hurt".

"o'idai do lacpu le va selkei .i punfra lo nu darxi do .ija'ebo cortu"
For a brivla, I suggest "capyju'i": j1 is careful of j2=c1, which is dangerous
to c2 under conditions c3.
"ko capyju'i le va selkei do lo nu lacpu"

mu'omi'e .pier.
--
li ze te'a ci vu'u ci bi'e te'a mu du
li ci su'i ze te'a mu bi'e vu'u ci

[la .lindar.]

For a brivla, I suggest "capyju'i": j1 is careful of j2=c1, which is dangerous
to c2 under conditions c3.
"ko capyju'i le va selkei do lo nu lacpu"

I agree. I was about to say "What about {jundi}?". A common expression is "Mind the _____.", which essentially equates to "Pay attention to the _____ because you're probably going to break something or get hurt.". I also vote for {capyju'i}. 

[Bob LeChevalier, President and Founder - LLG]

Robin Lee Powell wrote:
> I don't see a good way to do this as a bridi. {kajde} isn't use,
> it's mention; that is, {kajde} isn't warning someone, it's talking
> about someone having been warned. I don't see anything else good.
>
> Ideas?

The problem seems to be that people are insisting on translating "Be
careful" as an imperative based on "careful". That is English idiom. I
am pretty sure that not all languages express warnings in terms of
"being careful".

You can indeed use kajde, just not as an imperative. Statements about
events are not necessarily in the past tense.

mi kajde do lenu ...
(which event you can mark with pu'o to warn of an impending catastrophe).

You can of course also add .e'unai at the appropriate point for emphasis

> The specific example was "Be carefull pulling on that toy; it's
> going to spring back and hit you and that will hurt".

With two sentences in English, what you are warning is ambiguous.

The caution statement (x3 of kajde) would be "if you pull on that toy,
then it will spring back, and hit you, and you will be hurt", possibly
with a nice strong attitudinal expressing (empathic)-pain on the last
clause.

But some would express it as imperative "Don't pull on that toy, or else
..." in which case it is expressed as a negative imperative, perhaps
with an afterthought causal connective.

lojbab



--
Bob LeChevalier loj...@lojban.org www.lojban.org
President and Founder, The Logical Language Group, Inc.

[Jacob Errington]

I agree with lojbab, "be careful" is probably an English idiom. French uses "fais attention à..." which is essentially "pay attention to..."; a native francophone might consider {jundi} first.

I'd suggest {.i .o'i lo nu <condition> ka'e jai ri'a cortu} where <condition> is whatever will make the toy hurt the baby.

Or, if you don't care about the condition exactly, {tu'a lo selkei ka'e jai ri'a cortu} or {lo selkei ka'e jai jai ri'a cortu}

Then again, do you use weirdo grammar like {ka'e jai ri'a} when talking to babies?

mu'o mi'e la tsani

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[Robin Lee Powell]

On Wed, May 02, 2012 at 10:03:07AM +0200, Arnt Richard Johansen
wrote:

> On Tue, May 01, 2012 at 10:09:27PM -0700, Robin Lee Powell wrote:
> >
> > I don't see a good way to do this as a bridi. {kajde} isn't
> > use, it's mention; that is, {kajde} isn't warning someone, it's
> > talking about someone having been warned. I don't see anything
> > else good.
> >
> > Ideas?
> >
> > The specific example was "Be carefull pulling on that toy; it's
> > going to spring back and hit you and that will hurt".
>
> A reasonably precise rendition might be ralci+tarti or
> ralci+pilno.
>
> But for small children I'd probably say “ckape” and leave it at
> that. :-D

Ah, yes, it was {ckape} that I was missing. Thank you.

It doesn't have anything like "caution" or "care" in its keywords,
even though it's exactly what I'd use to express that.

[Robin Lee Powell]

Indeed! Perhaps someone could stick that in jbovlaste?

[Robin Lee Powell]

On Wed, May 02, 2012 at 06:55:18PM -0400, Bob LeChevalier, President and Founder - LLG wrote:
> Robin Lee Powell wrote:
> >I don't see a good way to do this as a bridi. {kajde} isn't use,
> >it's mention; that is, {kajde} isn't warning someone, it's talking
> >about someone having been warned. I don't see anything else good.
> >
> >Ideas?
>
> The problem seems to be that people are insisting on translating
> "Be careful" as an imperative based on "careful". That is English
> idiom. I am pretty sure that not all languages express warnings
> in terms of "being careful".
>
> You can indeed use kajde, just not as an imperative. Statements
> about events are not necessarily in the past tense.
>
> mi kajde do lenu ...
> (which event you can mark with pu'o to warn of an impending catastrophe).

That exactly doesn't work, though; look at kajde.

x1 (event/experience) warns/cautions x2 (person) of/about danger x3 (event/state/property).

{kajde} describes that something happened/happens that warns someone
about a danger. It is the mention, not the use. tu'a/jai doesn't
fix this; {kajde cusku} is Ok-ish I guess. IOW, kajde is:

lo nu do fagri cortu cu kajde do tu'a lo fagri

It describes the event of learning about a danger; it is not used to
*say* "Danger!".

c.f. the problem with {mabla}; as jcowan has said, you can't have
your use and mention it too.

[Robin Lee Powell]

On Wed, May 02, 2012 at 10:18:01PM -0400, Jacob Errington wrote:
> I agree with lojbab, "be careful" is probably an English idiom.

> French uses "fais attention �..." which is essentially "pay

> attention to..."; a native francophone might consider {jundi}
> first.

Yeah, I have no problem with {jundi} here in that regard; it feels
odd to me, but I'm perfectly willing to accept that as my
English-ness talking.

That doesn't make {kajde} acceptable, though.

[Jonathan Jones]

Wow, really? I suggested ckape before anyone else even read your post. :P

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[Robin Lee Powell]

I have two (currently sick) infants; a certain amount of brain
damage is to be expected. :P

If you mean you responded to the email first, that just means my
email client ordered it weirdly. If you mean something else, where
did you suggest it?, I'm curious.

-Robin

[Jonathan Jones]

You email ordered it weirdly.

[Efrain Caro]

To settle this "dispute", I will say that according to my email client
(gmail), Jonathan Jones replied "Well, there's {.eu'nai ko'a
ckape}...." on May 2, 1:09AM and Arnt Richard Johansen replied "But

for small children I'd probably say “ckape” and leave it at that. :-D"

on May 2, 4:03 AM. So Jonathan beat Arnt for almost 3 hours.

On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 6:14 AM, Robin Lee Powell

<rlpo...@digitalkingdom.org> wrote:
> I have two (currently sick) infants; a certain amount of brain
> damage is to be expected. :P
>
> If you mean you responded to the email first, that just means my
> email client ordered it weirdly. If you mean something else, where
> did you suggest it?, I'm curious.
>
> -Robin

[Jonathan Jones]

What dispute? Yeesh. I really need to remember to use zo'o instead of :P around you guys....

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[Robin Lee Powell]

Oh, I see your mail now; I ignored it because the key seemed to be
the {.e'u nai}. Sorry!

-Robin

[Bob LeChevalier, President and Founder - LLG]

Robin Lee Powell wrote:
> On Wed, May 02, 2012 at 06:55:18PM -0400, Bob LeChevalier, President and Founder - LLG wrote:
>
>>Robin Lee Powell wrote:
>>
>>>I don't see a good way to do this as a bridi. {kajde} isn't use,
>>>it's mention; that is, {kajde} isn't warning someone, it's talking
>>>about someone having been warned. I don't see anything else good.
>>>
>>>Ideas?
>>
>>The problem seems to be that people are insisting on translating
>>"Be careful" as an imperative based on "careful". That is English
>>idiom. I am pretty sure that not all languages express warnings
>>in terms of "being careful".
>>
>>You can indeed use kajde, just not as an imperative. Statements
>>about events are not necessarily in the past tense.
>>
>>mi kajde do lenu ...
>>(which event you can mark with pu'o to warn of an impending catastrophe).
>
>
> That exactly doesn't work, though; look at kajde.
>
> x1 (event/experience) warns/cautions x2 (person) of/about danger x3 (event/state/property).

Good catch.

>
> {kajde} describes that something happened/happens that warns someone
> about a danger. It is the mention, not the use. tu'a/jai doesn't
> fix this;

I'm not sure why not. After seeing the place structure, I would just
modify my response to "tu'a mi kajde ..."
"Something I do warns you about ..."

(Though I'll admit, I'm getting a bit rusty on such complexities.)

[Robin Lee Powell]

On Fri, May 04, 2012 at 03:52:10AM -0400, Bob LeChevalier, President and Founder - LLG wrote:
> Robin Lee Powell wrote:
> >
> >That exactly doesn't work, though; look at kajde.
> >
> > x1 (event/experience) warns/cautions x2 (person) of/about
> > danger x3 (event/state/property).
>
> Good catch.
>
> >{kajde} describes that something happened/happens that warns
> >someone about a danger. It is the mention, not the use.
> >tu'a/jai doesn't fix this;
>
> I'm not sure why not. After seeing the place structure, I would
> just modify my response to "tu'a mi kajde ..." "Something I do
> warns you about ..."

Right, but *what* is it that you do that warns them? Certainly
*saying* {tu'a mi kajde ...} doesn't do it, any more than "I have
warned you about ..." in English is warning someone. It's a mention
of a warning, not a warning.