It's Greek to me

[Pierre Abbat]

lu do'i .itkuile ga'a mi li'u pei?

mu'omi'e .pier.
--
.i toljundi do .ibabo mi'afra tu'a do
.ibabo damba do .ibabo do jinga
.icu'u la ma'atman.

[Gleki Arxokuna]

u'i i'e

[Gleki Arxokuna]

How shall we define it?
Wiktionary says

Greek (uncountable) Unintelligible speech or text, such as foreign speech or text, or regarding subjects the listener is not familiar with, such as mathematics or technical jargon; or statements that the listener does not understand or agree with.

.e'u

{.itkuile -  x1 (quoted text/object) is unintelligible [for x2]}

Now I wonder if there is any need in this word when {jimpe} does the same.

The definition needs to be more specific.

On Monday, July 23, 2012 10:11:11 PM UTC+4, Pierre Abbat wrote:

[selpa'i]

Am 25.07.2012 18:39, schrieb Marica Odagaki:

xu ki'a lu .itkuile li'u xelso

jboski and vlasisku doesn't parse ".itkuile"

and neither do I, to whom Lojban is still Greek.

vlasisku is not a parser. It can only decompose lujvo, but this is a zi'evla based on Ithkuil (the language).

Am 25.07.2012 19:07, schrieb Gleki Arxokuna:

How shall we define it?
Wiktionary says

Greek (uncountable) Unintelligible speech or text, such as foreign speech or text, or regarding subjects the listener is not familiar with, such as mathematics or technical jargon; or statements that the listener does not understand or agree with.

.e'u

{.itkuile -  x1 (quoted text/object) is unintelligible [for x2]}

Now I wonder if there is any need in this word when {jimpe} does the same.

The definition needs to be more specific.

That is possible, but quite terrible. You seem to be overlooking the joke (or I am seeing a joke where there is none).
.itkuile: x1 pertains to Ithkuil in aspect x2

It's funny when used as "this is so complicated, I can't understand it", but defining it that way removes some of the metaphorical character from the expression. Of course, you'd get some laughs when someone looks it up expecting it to mean "x1 pertains to Ithkuil [..]" only to find this joke-definition. Happens somewhat regularly with the many other joke-brivla when someone looks them up on IRC.

mu'o mi'e la selpa'i

-- 
.i pau mi me ma .i pa mai ko mi jungau la'e di'u 
.i ba bo mi va'o lo nu nelci lo nu me ma kau cu barkla 
.i va'o lo nu na nelci cu denpa ti lo nu mi drata

[.arpis.]

On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 1:21 PM, selpa'i <sel...@gmx.de> wrote:

Am 25.07.2012 18:39, schrieb Marica Odagaki:

xu ki'a lu .itkuile li'u xelso

jboski and vlasisku doesn't parse ".itkuile"

and neither do I, to whom Lojban is still Greek.

vlasisku is not a parser. It can only decompose lujvo, but this is a zi'evla based on Ithkuil (the language).

Am 25.07.2012 19:07, schrieb Gleki Arxokuna:

How shall we define it?
Wiktionary says

Greek (uncountable) Unintelligible speech or text, such as foreign speech or text, or regarding subjects the listener is not familiar with, such as mathematics or technical jargon; or statements that the listener does not understand or agree with.

.e'u

{.itkuile -  x1 (quoted text/object) is unintelligible [for x2]}

Now I wonder if there is any need in this word when {jimpe} does the same.

The definition needs to be more specific.

That is possible, but quite terrible. You seem to be overlooking the joke (or I am seeing a joke where there is none).
.itkuile: x1 pertains to Ithkuil in aspect x2
 

It's funny when used as "this is so complicated, I can't understand it", but defining it that way removes some of the metaphorical character from the expression. Of course, you'd get some laughs when someone looks it up expecting it to mean "x1 pertains to Ithkuil [..]" only to find this joke-definition. Happens somewhat regularly with the many other joke-brivla when someone looks them up on IRC.

I don't like the idea of having "joke-brivla" in which the official definition and the use are different. One compromise is to have the word mean "complicated and confusing" but have a note in its definition about its etymology. Another is to recognize that there is an elided {pe'a} in that usage and be careful using it.

One of the things I _like_ about lojban is its _lack_ of idiomatic/metaphoric/undocumented constructs that make it difficult for learners to achieve proficiency.

mu'o mi'e la selpa'i

-- 
.i pau mi me ma .i pa mai ko mi jungau la'e di'u 
.i ba bo mi va'o lo nu nelci lo nu me ma kau cu barkla 
.i va'o lo nu na nelci cu denpa ti lo nu mi drata

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mu'o mi'e .arpis.

[Gleki Arxokuna]

On Wednesday, July 25, 2012 9:21:37 PM UTC+4, selpa'i wrote:

Am 25.07.2012 18:39, schrieb Marica Odagaki:

xu ki'a lu .itkuile li'u xelso

jboski and vlasisku doesn't parse ".itkuile"

and neither do I, to whom Lojban is still Greek.

vlasisku is not a parser. It can only decompose lujvo, but this is a zi'evla based on Ithkuil (the language).

Am 25.07.2012 19:07, schrieb Gleki Arxokuna:

How shall we define it?
Wiktionary says

Greek (uncountable) Unintelligible speech or text, such as foreign speech or text, or regarding subjects the listener is not familiar with, such as mathematics or technical jargon; or statements that the listener does not understand or agree with.

.e'u

{.itkuile -  x1 (quoted text/object) is unintelligible [for x2]}

Now I wonder if there is any need in this word when {jimpe} does the same.

The definition needs to be more specific.

That is possible, but quite terrible. You seem to be overlooking the joke (or I am seeing a joke where there is none).
.itkuile: x1 pertains to Ithkuil in aspect x2

It's funny when used as "this is so complicated, I can't understand it", but defining it that way removes some of the metaphorical character from the expression.

I understood the joke. pe'i metaphorical expressions are possible in Lojban but must be clearly defined

to prevent culture-specific misunderstanding.

In the Netherlands and Russia they say "It's Chinese to me" in such situations.

And is there any connotation of the Greeks, Greek alphabet or Greek culture when you say "It's Greek to me"?

I guess no.

Therefore I don't understand how we can define it as x1 pertains to Ithkuil in aspect x2
but use it for a different thing.

"greek" and Greek are just two words for me.

As the last option I'd prefer

do'i me la .itkuil. pe'a ga'a mi

But I like your solution with "Greek in the second sense" for Lojban.

Just build the full meaning of the metaphor into it's definition and we are done.

[selpa'i]

Am 26.07.2012 06:58, schrieb Gleki Arxokuna:
> I understood the joke. pe'i metaphorical expressions are possible in
> Lojban but must be clearly defined
> to prevent culture-specific misunderstanding.

If you define a metaphor that way, it's not really a metaphor anymore.
You only get the full effect if .itkuil means the language and then say
things like {xu di'u .itkuile} to express your confusion. Of course
metaphors are fine, and when they are not obvious, you can mark them
with pe'a.

> In the Netherlands and Russia they say "It's Chinese to me" in such
> situations.

In Germany, people say "das kommt mir spanisch vor" = "this seems
spanish to me" to exress not-understanding or that something is odd.
Using foreign languages in such metaphors is common all over the planet,
so using .itkuil (or any other non-lojban language, even though the
comical effect is greater with .itkuil, it being another conlang and
known for its complexity) will do the job. Again, use pe'a or zo'o when
you aren't sure people will get it.

mu'o mi'e la selpa'i

--

pilno zo le xu .i lo dei bangu cu se cmene zo lojbo .e nai zo lejbo

[John E Clifford]

As usual for English, the "It's all Greek to me" gets its boost from Shakespeare (Julius Caesar in the discussion about JC thrice refusing the crown), but during various situations other versions have been popular: "It's all Dutch to me", "You might as well be talking Hottentot" and so on.  The Shakespeare case has originally an anti-elitist component, too (couldn't use plain old Latin, could he), which furthers the plot.  But the general pattern of blaming incomprehension on known of but unintelligible language is pretty general.  Ithkuil (I'm never sure I spell it right) certainly qualifies.  But, of course, successful metaphors rely on common cultural ties and -- despite the widespread pattern -- these may be lacking here.  The hearer may not know about Ithkuil or of it fabled (but real) complexity or may not recognize that what is being talked about is clearly NOT a specimen of Ithkuil (there was a cartoon once of a person confronted with some classic Greek inscription and dismissing it by saying it is all Greek to him).  We can, of course, mark the usage as non-literal and force another (but what other?) reading.  But that really does go against the whole idea of a metaphor and makes Lojban out to be the kind of narrow, literal, robotic language that external critics take it to be (even Spock had a sense of humor, though a rather elusive one).

---

From: selpa'i <sel...@gmx.de>
To: loj...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2012 8:04 AM
Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: It's Greek to me

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[Pierre Abbat]

On Thursday 26 July 2012 12:44:37 John E Clifford wrote:
> complexity or may not recognize that what is being talked about is clearly
> NOT a specimen of Ithkuil (there was a cartoon once of a person confronted
> with some classic Greek inscription and dismissing it by saying it is all
> Greek to him).

A Navajo linguist had written a treatise about verbs in various Athabaskan
languages and a thesis about comparative vocabulary in Cherokee and North
Iroquoian languages. Of Muskogean languages, though, she knew nothing. Once
someone asked her to translate a letter written in Seminole. She
replied, "It's Creek to me."

Pierre
--
li ze te'a ci vu'u ci bi'e te'a mu du
li ci su'i ze te'a mu bi'e vu'u ci

[Jonathan Jones]

On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 11:31 AM, Pierre Abbat <ph...@phma.optus.nu> wrote:

On Thursday 26 July 2012 12:44:37 John E Clifford wrote:
> complexity or may not recognize that what is being talked about is clearly
> NOT a specimen of Ithkuil (there was a cartoon once of a person confronted
> with some classic Greek inscription and dismissing it by saying it is all
> Greek to him).

A Navajo linguist had written a treatise about verbs in various Athabaskan
languages and a thesis about comparative vocabulary in Cherokee and North
Iroquoian languages. Of Muskogean languages, though, she knew nothing. Once
someone asked her to translate a letter written in Seminole. She
replied, "It's Creek to me."

.u'icai
 

Pierre
--
li ze te'a ci vu'u ci bi'e te'a mu du
li ci su'i ze te'a mu bi'e vu'u ci

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--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

[John E Clifford]

Oof!

---

From: Pierre Abbat <ph...@phma.optus.nu>
To: loj...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2012 12:31 PM

Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: It's Greek to me

[Gleki Arxokuna]

I must change my viewpoint a bit. When attitudinals or BAI are used don't they clearly state that it's a metaphor in the speaker's mind?

And one more general question.

Is it possible to speak without metaphors at all?

There can be objects or phenomena that show features that are between two gismu definitions

Like homeomorphism of a mug and a torus. If you slowly change the shape you'll get {kabri} out of {djine}. So where djine ends  and kabri starts?

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[Jonathan Jones]

On Fri, Jul 27, 2012 at 1:34 AM, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:

I must change my viewpoint a bit. When attitudinals or BAI are used don't they clearly state that it's a metaphor in the speaker's mind?

And one more general question.

Is it possible to speak without metaphors at all?

Yes, but it'd be a very boring conversation. Metaphors give speech spice. <- Look! A metaphor!
 

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[Jonathan Jones]

On Fri, Jul 27, 2012 at 1:34 AM, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:

...There can be objects or phenoIf you slowly change the shape you'll get {kabri} out of {djine}. So where djine ends  and kabri starts?

I would say at the point where the object no longer has a bottom.

[iesk]

Sorites alarm!

[Michael Turniansky]

On Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 2:11 PM, Pierre Abbat <ph...@phma.optus.nu> wrote:

lu do'i .itkuile ga'a mi li'u pei?

mu'omi'e .pier.

   do bilga  lo nu te notci la'e di'u fo lo finti be la'e la'o net http://knowmore.washingtonpost.com/2015/03/25/the-equivalent-of-its-all-greek-to-me-in-30-other-languages/ net

           --gejyspa

[MorphemeAddict]

Another possibility for a complicated language for this expression is Ptydepe, starring in Václav Havel's play "The memorandum". 

stevo

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[Gleki Arxokuna]

ta'oru'e zoi zoi.itkuile.zoi co'u gendra i zo itku'ile mu'a ca zenba lo ka se pilno 

           --gejyspa

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[Pierre Abbat]

That reminds me of another expression: when pigs fly. I once suggested "ca le
bavla'i rusydei" (the element-day equivalent would be "vardei"), which could
be expanded to "ca lo cinomoi be lo febvari be'o noi rusydei". One could also
say "ca lo nu lo jipci cu se denci" or "ca lo nu lo xarju cu vofli". The
problem is that answering "ca ma co'e" with "lo bavla'i rusydei" means that it
will happen on Grayday, which is impossible, since there is no Grayday. What's
the right way to say it?

Pierre
--
I believe in Yellow when I'm in Sweden and in Black when I'm in Wales.

[Michael Turniansky]

On Fri, Oct 9, 2015 at 4:19 AM, Pierre Abbat <ph...@bezitopo.org> wrote:

That reminds me of another expression: when pigs fly. I once suggested "ca le
bavla'i rusydei" (the element-day equivalent would be "vardei"), which could
be expanded to "ca lo cinomoi be lo febvari be'o noi rusydei". One could also
say "ca lo nu lo jipci cu se denci" or "ca lo nu lo xarju cu vofli". The
problem is that answering "ca ma co'e" with "lo bavla'i rusydei" means that it
will happen on Grayday, which is impossible, since there is no Grayday. What's
the right way to say it?

   My kids know this one -- "na'i"  ;-)

   You could also try  "lo nu le gi'uste cu  toldujbi'o  pe'a" zo'o

         --gejyspa

 

Pierre

--
I believe in Yellow when I'm in Sweden and in Black when I'm in Wales.

[Gleki Arxokuna]

2015-10-09 15:50 GMT+03:00 Michael Turniansky <mturn...@gmail.com>:

On Fri, Oct 9, 2015 at 4:19 AM, Pierre Abbat <ph...@bezitopo.org> wrote:

That reminds me of another expression: when pigs fly. I once suggested "ca le
bavla'i rusydei" (the element-day equivalent would be "vardei"), which could
be expanded to "ca lo cinomoi be lo febvari be'o noi rusydei". One could also
say "ca lo nu lo jipci cu se denci" or "ca lo nu lo xarju cu vofli". The
problem is that answering "ca ma co'e" with "lo bavla'i rusydei" means that it
will happen on Grayday, which is impossible, since there is no Grayday. What's
the right way to say it?

   My kids know this one -- "na'i"  ;-)

   You could also try  "lo nu le gi'uste cu  toldujbi'o  pe'a" zo'o

lu na ka'e li'u mapti

[Jacob Errington]

On 10/09/2015 04:19 AM, Pierre Abbat wrote:
> That reminds me of another expression: when pigs fly. I once suggested "ca le
> bavla'i rusydei" (the element-day equivalent would be "vardei"), which could
> be expanded to "ca lo cinomoi be lo febvari be'o noi rusydei". One could also
> say "ca lo nu lo jipci cu se denci" or "ca lo nu lo xarju cu vofli". The
> problem is that answering "ca ma co'e" with "lo bavla'i rusydei" means that it
> will happen on Grayday, which is impossible, since there is no Grayday. What's
> the right way to say it?
>
> Pierre
>

.i pe'i lo nu no da me lo rusydei cu na vajni .i lo remna sa'e se tavla
cu jimpe ju'o lo du'u ca no da ja'o fasnu

.i mi'e la tsani mu'o