Aesop translation

[Remo Dentato]

I've translated one of the Aesop fable ("The Crab and hist Mother") and posted it here:

http://xanrilisri.thecomicseries.com/

Aesop seems a good choice for translating into Lojban as the text is rather short, there's no copyright and it is available in many languages.

I intended to start from project Gutenberg text (http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/19994) but I noticed the English version is rather different from the original!
So, for this translation I relied more on the Italian translation (http://www.lafeltrinelli.it/products/9788854138476/Favole_Testo_greco_a_fronte_Ediz_Integrale/Esopo.html) that matches the Greek text (http://mythfolklore.net/aesopica/chambry/151.htm) much better.

If anyone has made other Aesop translations and wants me to publish it, let me know, I'll be happy to add them.

As usual, please let me know of any mistake I might have made.

mu'o mi'e la .remod.

[Remo Dentato]

What fool am I? I should have checked before. Of course some Aesop fables were already translated in the pre-xorlo era by Nick Nicholas!
I didn't check if it was before or after the great rafsi reallocation.

I'll try to check with Nick if he's fine with me re-adapting them to a post-xorlo version.

mu'o mi'e la remod.

[Remo Dentato]

New page added with nitcion translation of "the fox and the grapes".

Any contribution/comment/feedback is welcome!

mu'o mi'e la remod

[Remo Dentato]

Another page: "The Wild Boar and the Fox".

I would really benefit from getting some comment.

Btw, I tried to contact Nick Nicholas without success, anyone has been in contact with him lately?

[la gleki]

On Sunday, January 13, 2013 12:58:05 PM UTC+4, remod wrote:

Another page: "The Wild Boar and the Fox".

I would really benefit from getting some comment.

Btw, I tried to contact Nick Nicholas without success, anyone has been in contact with him lately?

On Sat, Jan 5, 2013 at 11:34 AM, Remo Dentato <rden...@gmail.com> wrote:

New page added with nitcion translation of "the fox and the grapes".

Any contribution/comment/feedback is welcome!

ji'a la Zalaim pu co'i fanva si'a lo drata lisri be fi'e la esop

i einai do tcidu la'oi http://vk.com/topic-5014685_27633758

[Remo Dentato]

Just added plain text at the bottom to ease search/copy etc.

[Michael Turniansky]

  I'm not sure what you mean by "lo nu mi gasnu kei na tolselki'u" Are you trying to say something along the lines of "lo nu mi gasnu kei na selki'u la'edi'u"?  Or perhaps "lo nu mi gasnu kei na selki'u noda"?  (I guess it's mostly the meaning of the lujvo that's confusing me)

              --gejyspa

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[Remo Dentato]

My intention:

{lo nu mi gasnu} -> my doing

{na tolselki'u} -> is not unjustified (without reason)

I hoped the lujuvo would have been clear enough being based on {to'e se krinu}

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[Michael Turniansky]

  Okay, that's what I thought you were going for.  So my second translation of "lo nu mi gansu kei na selki'u no da" is what your intended meaning.  "My action is not justified by nothing" (i.e. -> "lo nu mi  gansu kei selki'u su'o da" (my action is justified by something))  The discomfort that I have with the negativity being  part of the brivla instead of within the arguments is thinking "okay, what would 'lo broda cu tolselki'u lo brode' mean?" lo broda is justified by something, but not by brode?  If so, why not simply write "lo broda cu selki'u na'e bo lo brode" or even simpler, "lo broda na selki'u lo broda"?   It just doesn't feel to me (pe'i) that "krinu" has a polar opposite in the same way that say "canci" or "banli" does.  It's not on any kind of scale -- A is either a reason for B, or it's not.

            --gejyspa

[Jorge Llambías]

On Mon, Jan 28, 2013 at 6:52 PM, Michael Turniansky
<mturn...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Okay, that's what I thought you were going for. So my second translation
> of "lo nu mi gansu kei na selki'u no da" is what your intended meaning. "My
> action is not justified by nothing" (i.e. -> "lo nu mi gansu kei selki'u
> su'o da" (my action is justified by something))

I agree, I think "nonselki'u" would be better for "unjustified".

One-placer "x1 is unjustified" cannot be the opposite of two-placer
"x1 is justified by x2".

> The discomfort that I have
> with the negativity being part of the brivla instead of within the
> arguments is thinking "okay, what would 'lo broda cu tolselki'u lo brode'
> mean?" lo broda is justified by something, but not by brode? If so, why not
> simply write "lo broda cu selki'u na'e bo lo brode" or even simpler, "lo
> broda na selki'u lo broda"? It just doesn't feel to me (pe'i) that "krinu"
> has a polar opposite in the same way that say "canci" or "banli" does. It's
> not on any kind of scale -- A is either a reason for B, or it's not.

I think a suitable antonym for "justify" could be "undermine", so I
would interpret "tolselki'u" as "x1 is undermined by x2". Instead of
x2 providing support for x1, it takes it away.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

[Remo Dentato]

I see what you mean about the scalar opposite of {krinu}.  What if I had said: {lo broda cu na na selki'u} -> .. is not (not justified)

I want to render the double negation.

I might also have used {lo nu mi gasnu kei na rincau}  "my doing is not lacking-reason".  Maybe this would have been clearer.

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[tsani nicte]

On Jan 28, 2013, at 17:40, Remo Dentato <rden...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I see what you mean about the scalar opposite of {krinu}. What if I had said: {lo broda cu na na selki'u} -> .. is not (not justified)
> I want to render the double negation.
>
> I might also have used {lo nu mi gasnu kei na rincau} "my doing is not lacking-reason". Maybe this would have been clearer.
>

{rincau} doesn't really solve the problem, because it's formal definition, assuming jvajvo, is going to be {ka ko'a ko'e ce'ai ko'a claxu lo ka ce'u krinu ko'e}, which translates into English as "x1 lacks the property of x1 justifying x2." Now, you have an elided {se}, which is permissible with the proviso that the lujvo without the SE be useless. {rincau} with the definition I gave *is* useful, I'd say, and you should therefore not elide the {se}, I think.

Now, you are allowed, when using ka and du'u abstractions in the formal definition, to use {makau} instead of ce'u with the same rules for eliding SE. Likewise, I think that the version with the ce'u could also be useful, and it is therefore not advisable to define using makau.

Next, if you had decided on using makau, there are some ideas bouncing around on what makau really does, and it seems like there some connection to {da}. In particular:
{.i ko'a claxu lo ka ce'u broda makau} ~> {.i ko'a broda noda}

That leads me to agree with xorxes: nonselki'u is the lujvo for the job, if you absolutely want to use a lujvo.

If you want to render the double negation without using a lujvo, you could use {na} twice, but I think that it'd be more interesting to play around with the quantifier:
.i lo nu mi gasnu cu se krinu naku no da

Finally, and on a different note, instead of {lo nu mi gasnu}, how about {lo du'u mi mokau zukte}, which translates to "[The fact that] I did what I did."

.i mi'e la tsani mu'o

[Remo Dentato]

Sorry tsani I've seen those {makau} and {mokau} used around but I should have missed their introduction. I don't get what a direct+indirect question is supposed to mean.

As for "unjustified" I will probably go with xorxes suggestion, it is probably the cleanest way to say it.

Thanks.

[Remo Dentato]

Done with {nunselki'u}. Thanks!

[Michael Turniansky]

  No, he said NONselki'u (i.e. selki'u no da, hte way I rendered it), not NUNselki'u (lo nu selki'u)

           --gejyspa

[Remo Dentato]

My bad. I'll fix it

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