Translating "as"

[selpa'i]

This construction has come up a lot more recently, and I am drawing a blank how to translate it. It might not be translatable at all, but maybe someone has a good solution. Here are some examples using this particular usage of "as":

(1) I respect you as a friend.

(2) I study my dreams as symbolic imagery.

(3) We kept this day as a holiday.

(4) She appeared to them as a fairy this time.

I've tried a few things, among other things {kai} and {fi'o tarmi}, but I'm not content. Suggestions and ideas are welcome.

mu'o mi'e la selpa'i

[vitci'i]

On 11/05/2012 01:05 PM, selpa'i wrote:
> This construction has come up a lot more recently, and I am drawing a blank
> how to translate it. It might not be translatable at all, but maybe someone
> has a good solution. Here are some examples using this particular usage of
> "as":

Probably these will be rendered differently. vlasisku is down atm, but...

> (1) I respect you as a friend.

Not sure how to interpret this exactly. I respect you because you are a
high-quality friend?

> (2) I study my dreams as symbolic imagery.

I study my dreams using the assumption that my dreams are symbolic imagery.

> (3) We kept this day as a holiday.

We caused this day to continue (not cease) to be a holiday.

> (4) She appeared to them as a fairy this time.

On this occasion, she appeared to them in the shape/semblance of a
fairy. {simlu lo du'u crida}?

[selpa'i]

All these uses of "as" have one thing in common: They talk about the
role something has in a situation, or in what way something presents
itself to the situation. I feel like there should be a uniform solution,
whatever it may be.

mu'o mi'e la selpa'i

--
pilno zo le xu .i lo dei bangu cu se cmene zo lojbo .e nai zo lejbo

doị mèlbi mlenì'u
.i do càtlu ki'u
ma fe la xàmpre ŭu
.i do tìnsa càrmi
gi'e sìrji se tàrmi
.i taị bo pu cìtka lo gràna ku


.


.

[.alyn.post.]

On Mon, Nov 05, 2012 at 11:05:53AM -0800, selpa'i wrote:
> This construction has come up a lot more recently, and I am drawing a
> blank how to translate it. It might not be translatable at all, but maybe
> someone has a good solution. Here are some examples using this particular
> usage of "as":
>
> (1) I respect you as a friend.
>

Isn't that poi? => .i mi sinma do poi pendo

-Alan
--
.i ma'a lo bradi cu penmi gi'e du

[selpa'i]

Am 05.11.2012 22:50, schrieb .alyn.post.:
> On Mon, Nov 05, 2012 at 11:05:53AM -0800, selpa'i wrote:
>> This construction has come up a lot more recently, and I am drawing a
>> blank how to translate it. It might not be translatable at all, but maybe
>> someone has a good solution. Here are some examples using this particular
>> usage of "as":
>>
>> (1) I respect you as a friend.
>>
>
> Isn't that poi? => .i mi sinma do poi pendo

That assumes that multiple "you"s exist, and only the one who is a
friend is respected. I don't think this is generally applicable.
{noi} doesn't really have this problem though: "I respect you, a
friend." Still, it doesn't quite hit the nail on the head if you look at
the other sentences.

mu'o mi'e la selpa'i

[selpa'i]

Am 05.11.2012 22:37, schrieb selpa'i:
> All these uses of "as" have one thing in common: They talk about the
> role something has in a situation, or in what way something presents
> itself to the situation. I feel like there should be a uniform solution,
> whatever it may be.

Figuring out what exactly it means in English is the first step. I don't
know what exactly it means at its core, otherwise finding a lojban
equivalent would be easy.

Two more examples:

(5) Lojban as a foreign language.

(6) "Express" as a noun also exists, but has a different meaning.

Here, the "role" character of this construction comes out quite clearly
in my opinion, so maybe this is the right direction...

Something like a BAI like "... with role" / "... in role" / "in it's
role as".

Which means that all that's needed is the right brivla and we're done.

[Jonathan Jones]

Vlasisku is back up, for me at any rate.

The best generic "role" BAI I can find is ci'e, which is the ciste modal.

Looking up "role" or its synoyms "function"and "faculty" finds nothing useful.

"Occupation" and "job" both find jibri, but they aren't close enough to the sense of "role" for this purpose.

Based on my 5-minutes of research, it seems we might need to make a new word, and I don't think we can get the desired meaning with lujvo, so that leaves fu'ivla or gismu.

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mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

[selpa'i]

Am 05.11.2012 23:39, schrieb Jonathan Jones:
> Vlasisku is back up, for me at any rate.
>
> The best generic "role" BAI I can find is ci'e, which is the ciste modal.
>
> Looking up "role" or its synoyms "function"and "faculty" finds nothing
> useful.
>
> "Occupation" and "job" both find jibri, but they aren't close enough to
> the sense of "role" for this purpose.
>
> Based on my 5-minutes of research, it seems we might need to make a new
> word, and I don't think we can get the desired meaning with lujvo, so
> that leaves fu'ivla or gismu.

If a word is really needed (which is very possible), what should its
place structure be? I think this is an important step in understanding
the semantics at hand. If a sensible place structure can't be found,
then there is a problem with the concept somewhere.

x1 has/assumes role x2 in affair/event/situation x3

or in a different order

x1 is the role that x2 has in affair/event/situation x3

How about that?

[Jacob Errington]

On 5 November 2012 14:05, selpa'i <sel...@gmx.de> wrote:

This construction has come up a lot more recently, and I am drawing a blank how to translate it. It might not be translatable at all, but maybe someone has a good solution. Here are some examples using this particular usage of "as":

(1) I respect you as a friend.

.i mi do sinma sekai lo ka pendo -- it looks like a case of srana3 to me.

 

(2) I study my dreams as symbolic imagery.

.i mi lo selsne cu tadni co lanli fi lo ka jinvi lo du'u sinxa pixra -- unsure for "symbolic imagery"

 

(3) We kept this day as a holiday.

.i ma'a jdice lo du'u lo selde'i ca'o nalgundei

 

(4) She appeared to them as a fairy this time.

.i ca lo me lo cabna (le caku zo'o) moi sy fi ty. tolcanci co tarmi simlu lo ka crida

 

I've tried a few things, among other things {kai} and {fi'o tarmi}, but I'm not content. Suggestions and ideas are welcome.

mu'o mi'e la selpa'i

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[vitci'i]

On 11/05/2012 03:37 PM, selpa'i wrote:
> Am 05.11.2012 21:56, schrieb vitci'i:
>> On 11/05/2012 01:05 PM, selpa'i wrote:
>>> This construction has come up a lot more recently, and I am drawing a blank
>>> how to translate it. It might not be translatable at all, but maybe someone
>>> has a good solution. Here are some examples using this particular usage of
>>> "as":
>>
>> Probably these will be rendered differently. vlasisku is down atm, but...
>>
>>> (1) I respect you as a friend.
>>
>> Not sure how to interpret this exactly. I respect you because you are a
>> high-quality friend?
>>
>>> (2) I study my dreams as symbolic imagery.
>>
>> I study my dreams using the assumption that my dreams are symbolic imagery.
>>
>>> (3) We kept this day as a holiday.
>>
>> We caused this day to continue (not cease) to be a holiday.
>>
>>> (4) She appeared to them as a fairy this time.
>>
>> On this occasion, she appeared to them in the shape/semblance of a
>> fairy. {simlu lo du'u crida}?
>>
>
> All these uses of "as" have one thing in common: They talk about the
> role something has in a situation, or in what way something presents
> itself to the situation. I feel like there should be a uniform solution,
> whatever it may be.
>
> mu'o mi'e la selpa'i

Perhaps you could use {sumti} somehow.

[selpa'i]

Bump.

Just now, I found myself needing this construction yet again:

xu zo menli do melbi [as a name]
Do you like "menli" as a name?

I don't think solutions such as "xu zo menli do melbi va'o lo nu cmene"
are good enough, especially since it does not properly generalize.

Any other ideas?

[Jorge Llambías]

On Sat, Nov 10, 2012 at 8:02 PM, selpa'i <sel...@gmx.de> wrote:
>
> xu zo menli do melbi [as a name]
> Do you like "menli" as a name?
>
> I don't think solutions such as "xu zo menli do melbi va'o lo nu cmene" are
> good enough, especially since it does not properly generalize.
>
> Any other ideas?

For this particular case, I think "melbi" already has the place that you need:

xu zo menli do melbi lo ka cmene

For the general case, I think you need, as you already proposed, a
selbri that means something like "x1 qua x2 is/does x3".

Making x3 the main bridi with "qua" as a tag has the same sort of
problems that "zmadu" has, since you want to distinguish:

I give you this as your friend.
I give you this as a present.
I give you this as my friend.

where in each case the "as"-term is linked to a different argument. So
it seems to me the best thing is either use a selbri meaning "qua" in
the main bridi, or make a lujvo (like the -mau lujvo) that already
selects which argument is being qualified.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

[selpa'i]

Am 11.11.2012 01:19, schrieb Jorge Llambías:
> For the general case, I think you need, as you already proposed, a
> selbri that means something like "x1 qua x2 is/does x3".
>
> Making x3 the main bridi with "qua" as a tag has the same sort of
> problems that "zmadu" has, since you want to distinguish:
>
> I give you this as your friend.
> I give you this as a present.
> I give you this as my friend.
>
> where in each case the "as"-term is linked to a different argument. So
> it seems to me the best thing is either use a selbri meaning "qua" in
> the main bridi, or make a lujvo (like the -mau lujvo) that already
> selects which argument is being qualified.

I think you can attach the "qua" tag with a {be} or {pe} to attach it to
one of the arguments. The problem right now is just that no such selbri
exists, and I don't know what to do about that. It's somewhat urgent
that this word be made, but at the same time, making new gismu is not
easily accepted.

Since this concept seems so widely applicable, it would seem to be
useful to have a gismu for it that begins with x, so that one of the
remaining experimentals of the xV'V series can be used as its BAI.

I just don't want to go too far on my own only to be forced later to
undo everything.

Also, the current theatre project from the other thread is a place where
this construction is required and I have to finish it by this Monday.
I'm not sure what to do now...

[Jorge Llambías]

On Sat, Nov 10, 2012 at 9:29 PM, selpa'i <sel...@gmx.de> wrote:
>
> I think you can attach the "qua" tag with a {be} or {pe} to attach it to one
> of the arguments.

If you are happy with "pe" for that, then you don't need anything else:

xu zo menli poi cmene cu melbi do

"poi" would be used to restrict to a particular aspect or capacity of
an individual rather than to some particular individual(s) from a set.
(That sort of matches the etymology of "qua" too.)

[selpa'i]

Am 11.11.2012 01:50, schrieb Jorge Llambías:
> On Sat, Nov 10, 2012 at 9:29 PM, selpa'i <sel...@gmx.de> wrote:
>>
>> I think you can attach the "qua" tag with a {be} or {pe} to attach it to one
>> of the arguments.
>
> If you are happy with "pe" for that, then you don't need anything else:

I meant something analogous to "lo broda be bai ko'a" and "ko'a pe bai
ko'e".

> xu zo menli poi cmene cu melbi do
>
> "poi" would be used to restrict to a particular aspect or capacity of
> an individual rather than to some particular individual(s) from a set.
> (That sort of matches the etymology of "qua" too.)

That is a possible solution, yes. It has been proposed before in this
thread, and it's actually a usage I've never had anything against. I've
used it in some texts myself. The reason why I didn't go for it here is
that I felt like something was missing, but it's hard to pin down what.
I will think about it. Even though it seems to be lacking something,
it's very simple and it will (have to) do for the time being.

(The proposed gismu would still be useful regardless.)

[la gleki]

On Sunday, November 11, 2012 4:29:00 AM UTC+4, selpa'i wrote:

Am 11.11.2012 01:19, schrieb Jorge Llambías:
> For the general case, I think you need, as you already proposed, a
> selbri that means something like "x1 qua x2 is/does x3".
>
> Making x3 the main bridi with "qua" as a tag has the same sort of
> problems that "zmadu" has, since you want to distinguish:
>
> I give you this as your friend.
> I give you this as a present.
> I give you this as my friend.
>
> where in each case the "as"-term is linked to a different argument. So
> it seems to me the best thing is either use a selbri meaning "qua" in
> the main bridi, or make a lujvo (like the -mau lujvo) that already
> selects which argument is being qualified.

I think you can attach the "qua" tag with a {be} or {pe} to attach it to
one of the arguments. The problem right now is just that no such selbri
exists, and I don't know what to do about that. It's somewhat urgent
that this word be made, but at the same time, making new gismu is not
easily accepted. 

 

Some time ago i promised to help every time this problem arises. 

Even if I'm given the task to create a gismu at the light of speed I doubt that the source languages

have the necessary word for this.

The word "as"

In English and Russian these are basically prepositions

English "as" [az]/[ez]

Russian "kak"

In Hindi phrase "treat me as your friend" the preposition is translated as "kē rūpa mēṁ" [kerupmem]

Wiktionary treats this meaning as "in the manner or role specified"

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/as

from which we can assume that it's basically

Spanish "como" [komo]

Portuguese "como" [komo]

Italian "come" [kome]

What if we search for "role/part"?

My Mandarin dictionary says that it should be 

"角 - jué" that means "role; part; character"

"角色 - juésè" that means "role"

"play the role of" - "担任...角色"

Another option is to search for "qua".

"作为 (作為, 作为) zuòwéi" - accomplish; action; to regard (sth as sth); to look upon (sth as); conduct

作为知己 take sb. for a close friend

Also.

为

I

(為, 为)

wéi

act as; take...to be; to be; to do; to serve as; to become

II

(爲, 为)

wéi

variant of 為; to take as; to serve as; to act as; to behave as

Also. 

当 dàng treat as; regard as; take for

不要把我当小孩看待。 Don't treat me as (like) a child.

All of my Chinese friends seem to be sleeping at the moment so I can't check.

Arabic.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/part

دَوْر‎ • (dawr)  - position or role.

German Rolle

Russian [rol]

Italian [ruol]

Preliminary results.

jue 0.246117399315609 az 0.213872071597789 komo 0.094630165833114 kak 0.051855751513556 komo 0.048828639115557

results in {kazmo}. If we replace [jue] with "zuowei" [tsuouei]/[tsove] the results won't change in ther words Mandarin word completely ignored by the algorithm.

jue 0.246117399315609 az 0.213872071597789 komo 0.094630165833114 kak 0.051855751513556 komo 0.048828639115557

results in {kazve}.

Replacing with [dan] results in {dazne}

Since this concept seems so widely applicable, it would seem to be 
useful to have a gismu for it that begins with x, so that one of the 
remaining experimentals of the xV'V series can be used as its BAI. 

As you can see no traces of the phoneme [x/h].

You can infringe the algorithm of course and end up with (e.g.) {xezve} with {xe'e} as a BAI.

Although I'd prefer {komve} (from "como" and "wei") with {ko'ei} as a BAI.

But to tell you the truth I can see no good place for sumtcita of this pu'o gismu, if we strictly follow the algorithm.

All the places are taken.

[la gleki]

A correction. My friend from China said that

I regard you as my close friend = 我把你当作朋友。

So 当作 "dangzuo" might be used instead

She said that both expressions are valid. however, dangzuo is used more frequently.

[la gleki]

In English the correct translation is "in the capacity of". It's kinda idiom.

In Russian the correct translation is "v roli" (literally "in the role of"). It's kinda another idiom.

doi .xorxes., how is this concept expressed in Spanish?

Looks like the gismu algorithm would fail here because the source languages just don't have the necessary "prim".

So JCB's idea of remote global etymology would fail for this concept.

But as Lojban doesn't want to adhere to 6-language semantics and we assume that this concept deserves a gismu/fu'ivla

then the only thing that is left is simple mnemonics.

We can't compress "dangzuo" + "in the capacity of" + "v roli" into a single gismu (CVCCV/CCVCV) without losing recognisability.

So I suggest take special action here and accept

{datso} with mnemonics as  当作 "dang4zuo4" (pronounced as ~ [dang- tswoh]). The BAI could be {da'oi}.

Another option {*danso} obviously clashes with {dansu}.

[Jorge Llambías]

On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 11:20 AM, la gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:
> In English the correct translation is "in the capacity of". It's kinda
> idiom.
> In Russian the correct translation is "v roli" (literally "in the role of").
> It's kinda another idiom.
> doi .xorxes., how is this concept expressed in Spanish?

The formal/bureaucratic "in the capacity of" would be "en calidad de"
(lit. "in quality of").

But the usual way to express this concept in English is "as" and in
Spanish it's "como", so I wouldn't call the longer forms "the correct
translation".

[la gleki]

It was a hard work. But even now I can't find correct Bangla translation.

This is the case where dictionaries can't help and even native speakers soon become annoyed by la gleki's questions.

cmn	vei	0.246117399315609	confirmed by	http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E4%B8%BA#Mandarin
eng	az	0.213872071597789
spa	komo	0.094630165833114	confirmed by	xorxes
ara	ka	0.090023690444854	confirmed by	Manel Ahmed-Chaouch  (Algeria)
hin	djase	0.084890760726507	confirmed by	Nikhil Sinha, banseljaj
ben		0.05672545406686
rus	kak	0.051855751513556	confirmed by	la gleki
por	komo	0.048828639115557
jap	tocite	0.03224532771782	confirmed by	http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E3%81%A8%E3%81%97%E3%81%A6
pun	ditara	0.028691760989734	confirmed by	banseljaj
deu	alts	0.027375625164517	confirmed by	http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/als#German
fra	komy	0.024743353514083
ita		0.01632

The result is {kazve}. It would be nice to take {ka'ei} as a BAI but it might be already taken. {ka'ei} was in CAhA (see that infamous topic on MUhEI, possible worlds etc.)

Can we take special measures (like {dinri} was changed to {donri}, {ckamu} to {mleca} ) and choose {komve}/{ko'ei} instead ?

[la gleki]

doi la selpa'i xu do se slabu la'oi http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predicative_expression

i mi jinvi lo du'u do skicu tu'a la'e ri

i mu'a

They elected him [as] president. - Predicative nominal over the object

They were all happy campers. - Predicative nominal over the subject (They acted as happy campers???)

[la klaku]

(1) I respect you as a friend.

(2) I study my dreams as symbolic imagery.

(3) We kept this day as a holiday.

(4) She appeared to them as a fairy this time.

I don't think we need a new word - neither a BAI nor a gismu. Of course, we could just make a word anyway without much harm.
The problem is that what you're essentially doing is relating an object by describing it with a predicate. That's essentially how all language works, so no wonder it turns up so often. "I study my dreams as symbolic imagery." could be rendered: "I work as a field of study on my experiences as a dream as symbolic imagery" (of course, the sentence hiccups, because it's clumsy what the "as" attaches to, but you get my point).
You could say that it makes explicit that it's this property and not that property which makes it relevant. In the few cases where it needs to be made explicit that it's just about relevant, I agree with Tsani that we need the hypothetical srana3.

In line with my suggestion of not inventing a one-word-every-possible-use-word, the four original sentences could be translated thus:

I respect you as a friend.

One possible translation is {mi do sinma mu'i lonu do mi pendo}. Of course, if it's used as a contrast to "I love you", then it's just a roundabout way of saying {do simlu loka pendo (jenai pampe'o) kei mi}

I study my dreams as symbolic imagery.

Either one could just use {ta'i}, or do as Tsani did, with te lanli

We kept this day as a holiday.

{zo'e za'o nalgundei fi mi'a}. It doesn't make sense to "keep days". You can keep ascribing the property of "holiday" to them, though. (Again, what "as" is doing is just putting a selbri to a sumti and saying it's relevant)

She appeared to them as a fairy this time.

{ko'a tolcanci fi ko'e ta'i lo nu se xadni lo crida}

In conclusion I think it would be bad to invent a general mechanism to ascribe selbri  in mid-bridi without specifying what it describes or how. If ambigiuty is important, use {do'e}.

klaku

[la arxokuna]

Of course one can create any experimental cmavo. And we could imagine a {vo'o'oi} (selmaho NOI) that would distribute over properties of the same object rather than individuals.

But it's all philosophy (see the thread on object vs. properties vs. process languages).

But in this case we should solve the same problem for conjunctions.

What is {xekri je mlatu}? One black cat or two objects, one black and another one being a cat?

[Jorge Llambías]

On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 3:44 AM, la arxokuna <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:

What is {xekri je mlatu}? One black cat or two objects, one black and another one being a cat?

 

Tanru logical connectives were never officially well defined. The usual take has always been that "ko'a xekri je mlatu" expands to "ge ko'a xekri gi ko'a mlatu", but the first problem already arises when you put something in the x2 of "xekri je mlatu".

[Michael Turniansky]

"xekri je mlatu" is not any amount of objects.  It's a selbri.  "lo xekri je mlatu" is an object. "xekri je mlatu" is a description of  all objects that are both black and cats.

    --gejsypa

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[la arxokuna]

On Friday, June 14, 2013 3:56:38 PM UTC+4, gejyspa wrote:

"xekri je mlatu" is not any amount of objects.  It's a selbri.  "lo xekri je mlatu" is an object. "xekri je mlatu" is a description of  all objects that are both black and cats.

Okay. 

1. How would you describe one object that is black and white but at different time?

2. How would you describe two objects, one black and another one white?

[Felipe Gonçalves Assis]

On 14 June 2013 09:24, la arxokuna <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> On Friday, June 14, 2013 3:56:38 PM UTC+4, gejyspa wrote:
>>
>> "xekri je mlatu" is not any amount of objects. It's a selbri. "lo xekri
>> je mlatu" is an object. "xekri je mlatu" is a description of all objects
>> that are both black and cats.
>
>
> Okay.
> 1. How would you describe one object that is black and white but at
> different time?

{xekri fa'u blabi ca lo remei}

(By the way, I have always wanted a LAhE for {fa'u} such as {vu'i} is
for {ce'o}.)

> 2. How would you describe two objects, one black and another one white?
>

{xekri jo'u blabi}, or even {xekri ja blabi}, but, most likely, I
would just describe them separately:
{lo xekri [ku] jo'u lo blabi}

mu'o
mi'e .asiz.

[Michael Turniansky]

On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 8:24 AM, la arxokuna <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Friday, June 14, 2013 3:56:38 PM UTC+4, gejyspa wrote:

"xekri je mlatu" is not any amount of objects.  It's a selbri.  "lo xekri je mlatu" is an object. "xekri je mlatu" is a description of  all objects that are both black and cats.

Okay. 

1. How would you describe one object that is black and white but at different time?

2. How would you describe two objects, one black and another one white?

     Well, in the first case, I'd probably make that explicit with relative phrases or tanru, but since we are dealing with the question of conjunctions....

    That's what JOI are for.

    First the might use lo xekri ju'e blabi (jo'u might work as well, but might imply either an  always white or  always black thing) 

     For the second, the obvious choice lo xekri je lo blabi. 

 --gejyspa

[la arxokuna]

I'm not that sure about {ju'e}  but anyway the question was about NOI.

If {poi} now separates individuals than we have to mirror conjunctions (ju'e, je) and NOI-cmavo.

I don't welcome ad hoc decisions in lojban.

 --gejyspa

[Michael Turniansky]

  Ummm.. no it wasn't... you said "But in this case we should solve the same problem for conjunctions.

What is {xekri je mlatu}? One black cat or two objects, one black and another one being a cat?"

  Unless I'm missing something... but in any case, why do "we have to mirror conjunctions (ju'e, je) and NOI-cmavo"?  I say to you "na'i"

 --geyspa

[la arxokuna]

On Friday, June 14, 2013 6:41:37 PM UTC+4, gejyspa wrote:

  Ummm.. no it wasn't... you said "But in this case we should solve the same problem for conjunctions.

What is {xekri je mlatu}? One black cat or two objects, one black and another one being a cat?"

  Unless I'm missing something... but in any case, why do "we have to mirror conjunctions (ju'e, je) and NOI-cmavo"?  I say to you "na'i"

There was a suggestion to invent a new NOI-cmavo that would distribute over properties of the same object.  Whereas {poi} under this proposal would distribute over individuals.

[John E Clifford]

Are we starting up Kung Sun-Lung again: a black cat is not a cat, neither is it black? Admiottedly, some of the things that logiciqans have done to try to deal with string lisk "black cat" or "small galaxy" do lend themselves to this sort of analysis, but Lojban is supposed not to have that sort of problem.

---

From: la arxokuna <gleki.is...@gmail.com>
To: loj...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Friday, June 14, 2013 10:30 AM
Subject: Re: [lojban] Translating "as"