Distinguishing between free and bound variables

[.arpis.]

Alt title: distinguishing between variables and metavariables.

If I say, in English "Surely you don't mean x.", it is clear (from context) that "x" is a metavariable, standing in for a potential expression, and not a variable bound to an actual expression.

Any suggestions on how to model that distinction in lojban?

--
mu'o mi'e .arpis.

[la gleki]

{ju'o do na skudji lo nu do cliva mi}

[.arpis.]

The construct in question was not the "Surely you don't mean" part, but the "x" part of the sentence.

For example, {ju'o do na skudji ko'a} doesn't do it, because it indicates that {ko'a} is bound somewhere in context to mean a particular thing, and instead I'd like to provide a template, sort of like {ce'u} or {ke'a} or even {ma kau}, but not quite any of them.

{la'e do'i} might solve it, but feels like a hack.

{ko'a bi'u} also might, but seems ambiguous with "a new referent of the same {ko'a}" rather than "a new {ko'a}".

[Robert Slaughter]

On Sun, 2012-12-30 at 09:39 -0800, la gleki wrote:

{ju'o do na skudji lo nu do cliva mi}

Please always include an English gloss, because the number of people, even hereon the main list, who can sight-read lojban can probably be counted on one hand.

-- Bob Slaughter, rslau...@WHATmindspring.com http://www.facebook.com/robert.s.slaughter  "The price good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." -- Plato "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." -- Edmund Burke "The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing." -- Albert Einstein

[.arpis.]

> {ju'o do na skudji lo nu do cliva mi}

"I'm sure you're not saying that you're leaving me"

"I'm sure that you don't mean that you're leaving me"

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[v4hn]

On Sun, Dec 30, 2012 at 03:38:37PM -0500, Robert Slaughter wrote:
> On Sun, 2012-12-30 at 09:39 -0800, la gleki wrote:
>
> > {ju'o do na skudji lo nu do cliva mi}
>
> Please always include an English gloss, because the number of people,
> even hereon the main list, who can sight-read lojban can probably be
> counted on one hand.

Hopefully in binary at least, that would at least increase the bound to 31..
That sentence is not difficult at all in my opinion. {.u'i}

Maybe
{ju'o do na skudji lonu ba'e broda}
"Surely you don't mean to say -something unspecified-"
works?

That way you leave the different values for your /X/ up to context.
Honestly speaking, I'm not really sure I understood your english example.
What is it supposed to mean? I can't find a scenario in which the /X/ would
not take a specific value depending on context.


v4hn

[.arpis.]

Hopefully in binary at least, that would at least increase the bound to 31..
That sentence is not difficult at all in my opinion. {.u'i}

I was thinking that, but I didn't reply because it would have been unproductive.

{lo banli pensi vo'a se pensi simsa} (great minds think alike)

 

Maybe
{ju'o do na skudji lonu ba'e broda}
"Surely you don't mean to say -something unspecified-"
works?

That doesn't work for the same reason as {ko'a}; I may have used {cei} somewhere to bind it.

 

That way you leave the different values for your /X/ up to context.
Honestly speaking, I'm not really sure I understood your english example.
What is it supposed to mean?

If I say "You are not allowed to say things like 'X is stupid'", I don't mean that you're not allowed to call a particular person stupid but that you're not allowed to call anyone stupid; however, I'm not using {da} to bind to the referent of your insult. Instead I'm providing a template for making a bridi and telling you not to use any bridi that could be made using that template.
 

I can't find a scenario in which the /X/ would
not take a specific value depending on context.

It's not so much that /X/ doesn't take a specific value as that it doesn't take a specific value at time of utterance.

[v4hn]

On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 11:31:22AM -0500, .arpis. wrote:
> > Hopefully in binary at least, that would at least increase the bound to
> > 31..
> > That sentence is not difficult at all in my opinion. {.u'i}
>
> I was thinking that, but I didn't reply because it would have been unproductive.
> {lo banli pensi vo'a se pensi simsa} (great minds think alike)

{u'isai} If you say so.

> > Maybe
> > {ju'o do na skudji lonu ba'e broda}
> > "Surely you don't mean to say -something unspecified-"
> > works?

> That doesn't work for the same reason as {ko'a}; I may have used {cei}
> somewhere to bind it.

> If I say "You are not allowed to say things like 'X is stupid'", I don't
> mean that you're not allowed to call a particular person stupid but that
> you're not allowed to call anyone stupid; however, I'm not using {da} to
> bind to the referent of your insult. Instead I'm providing a template for
> making a bridi and telling you not to use any bridi that could be made
> using that template.
>
> > I can't find a scenario in which the /X/ would
> > not take a specific value depending on context.

Fair enough.
Still, in quotations broda/ko'a should work out,
because _your_ usage of {cei} should not influence the quote.

{tolcurmi lonu do cusku lu ko'a bebna li'u}
"it's not allowed that you say '/X/ is silly'"
works out in my opinion, for the speaker would use {losedu'u ko'a bebna}
if he would mean a specific (bound) {ko'a}.

If you would like to avoid these assignables,
{tolcurmi lonu do cusku lu li'o bebna li'u}
might do the trick..?


v4hn

[Michael Turniansky]

  For templating you can (and we do) use ko'a, et al, but if you don't like that, you can also use the broda series.

   do na ue xusra lo du'u broda.

                            --gejyspa

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