Yacht

[Betsemes]

coi rodo
I have been looking for a lojban word for "yacht" on jbovlaste, but
found nothing. Generally speaking, a yacht is a private boat or ship
used for pleasure. That word could also be used in the sense of
"racing boat" though.

I initially thought on fu'ivla:
blotrjate (from Spanish "yate"): x1 is a yacht/private pleasure
boat/ship owned by x2, propelled by x3
But later I thought on a lujvo:
puksivblo (pluka sivni bloti) x1=b1=s1 is a yacht/private pleasure
boat/ship owned by x2=s2=p2, propelled by x3=b3

I'm unsure about {sivni}. Comments?

mu'o mi'e betsemes

[selpa'i]

Am 13.09.2012 15:04, schrieb Betsemes:
> coi rodo
> I have been looking for a lojban word for "yacht" on jbovlaste, but
> found nothing. Generally speaking, a yacht is a private boat or ship
> used for pleasure. That word could also be used in the sense of
> "racing boat" though.
>
> I initially thought on fu'ivla:
> blotrjate (from Spanish "yate"): x1 is a yacht/private pleasure
> boat/ship owned by x2, propelled by x3

The word comes from the Dutch "Jacht", which in Lojban would be {iaxt}.
So I'd suggest "blotriaxti" (probably not so pretty), or a stage-4
"iaxti" (the final i is taken from bloti). Of course, Jacht means hunt
(n), but the purpose of Jachts have shifted and are indeed more about
luxury and leisure or about racing nowadays(and who knows what else).

mu'o mi'e la selpa'i

--
pilno zo le xu .i lo dei bangu cu se cmene zo lojbo .e nai zo lejbo

doị mèlbi mlenì'u
.i do càtlu ki'u
ma fe la xàmpre ŭu
.i do tìnsa càrmi
gi'e sìrji se tàrmi
.i taị bo pu cìtka lo gràna ku

[Pierre Abbat]

On Thursday, September 13, 2012 15:54:35 selpa'i wrote:
> Am 13.09.2012 15:04, schrieb Betsemes:
> > coi rodo
> > I have been looking for a lojban word for "yacht" on jbovlaste, but
> > found nothing. Generally speaking, a yacht is a private boat or ship
> > used for pleasure. That word could also be used in the sense of
> > "racing boat" though.
> >
> > I initially thought on fu'ivla:
> > blotrjate (from Spanish "yate"): x1 is a yacht/private pleasure
> > boat/ship owned by x2, propelled by x3
>
> The word comes from the Dutch "Jacht", which in Lojban would be {iaxt}.
> So I'd suggest "blotriaxti" (probably not so pretty), or a stage-4
> "iaxti" (the final i is taken from bloti). Of course, Jacht means hunt
> (n), but the purpose of Jachts have shifted and are indeed more about
> luxury and leisure or about racing nowadays(and who knows what else).

A type-3 fu'ivla has to have a foreign part beginning with a consonant.
Changing "i" to "j" seems reasonable here. Often an "x" is inserted before it
if it begins with a vowel.

Pierre
--
The Black Garden on the Mountain is not on the Black Mountain.

[Jonathan Jones]

zo'oi.Yacht. za'i surla kei barda bloti

.i.e'o ko finti pa lujvo fo di'u ki'u lodu'u mi xebni lo fu'ivla

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mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
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[Betsemes]

On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 5:35 PM, Jonathan Jones <eye...@gmail.com> wrote:
> zo'oi.Yacht. za'i surla kei barda bloti

A yacht is not necesarily a "big boat" (ship). Surely you'd admit that
this: http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/photo_gallery.jsp?&hosturl=jarrettbay&&ywo=jarrettbay&slim=broker&boat_id=2438509&boatname=9m+Sea+Ray+260+Sundancer&photo_revised_date=1328305158000&photo_name=Miz+Wally&photo=0&url=
is not a "big boat", more likely, just a boat; but it's a yacht anyway.

> .i.e'o ko finti pa lujvo fo di'u ki'u lodu'u mi xebni lo fu'ivla

I'm also more inclined for lujvo; it seems many lojbanists look for
ancient words to make fu'ivla with no matter the end result is almost
unpronounceable. But {za'i surla kei barda bloti} also describes a
cruise ship, and a cruise ship is not a yacht. I think the private
usage nature of a yacht should be clearly stated.

[Jonathan Jones]

zoi gy.Cruise Ship.gy za'i surla litru kei barda bloti

And yes, I know yachts are also used for leisure trips. My point is that yachts are defined by being a boat for leisure, whereas cruise ships are defined by being a boat for leisure trips.

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[Jonathan Jones]

Also, Cruise Ships are always big. So that gives us two differentiation points: Cruise ships are big, and used for trips of leisure, yachts are much smaller, though usually bigger than speedboats, and are used for leisure in general.

[Betsemes]

Okay. So your definitions:

zoi gy.Cruise Ship.gy za'i surla litru kei barda bloti

zo'oi.Yacht. za'i surla kei bloti
I take that you accept that a yacht is not necesarily big.

So then
cruise ship: {zazysurli'ukezbrablo} or {surli'ubrablo}
yacht: {zazysurkezblo} or just {surblo}; and since nobody proved it
wrong (yet), {puksivblo} might also be.

Thoughts?

mu'o mi'e betsemes

[Jonathan Jones]

My only objection to the use of sivni is that sivni is private as in private thoughts, but I don't really have a better alternative. "Private property" isn't property kept hidden or in secret, it's merely something owned by an individual (or sometimes a small group of individuals like in the case of family-owned and timeshares). But as I said, I don't have any good alternatives- I don't think pukypreposblo is better.

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[Betsemes]

On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 8:31 AM, Jonathan Jones <eye...@gmail.com> wrote:
> My only objection to the use of sivni is that sivni is private as in private
> thoughts, but I don't really have a better alternative. "Private property"
> isn't property kept hidden or in secret, it's merely something owned by an
> individual (or sometimes a small group of individuals like in the case of
> family-owned and timeshares). But as I said, I don't have any good
> alternatives- I don't think pukypreposblo is better.

pukypreposblo = pluka ke prenu ponse bloti

The objection I have about this is that a yacht is not necessarily
private in terms of possession, but it's private in terms of usage. A
cruise ship holds many passengers which are brought together by a
cruise ship agency, and many of those passengers most likely don't
know each other. A yacht may be owned by a yacht charter business, and
many are; but it's mostly chartered by families or group of friends,
or maybe even by coworkers; so it's more likely privately *used*.

And yes, that's my uncertainty about sivni; it has "private" on its
definition, but it seemed to be more about confidentiality althought I
was not sure.

[.arpis.]

It seems to me against the spirit of lojban to try to define a lujvo to mean something so specific (and culturally specific) as "yacht"; I'd use {surblo} to mean "boat used for relaxation" and let context disambiguate whether I meant cruise ship or yacht.

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mu'o mi'e .arpis.

[Jonathan Jones]

On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 1:00 PM, .arpis. <rpglover...@gmail.com> wrote:

It seems to me against the spirit of lojban to try to define a lujvo to mean something so specific (and culturally specific) as "yacht"; I'd use {surblo} to mean "boat used for relaxation" and let context disambiguate whether I meant cruise ship or yacht.

The entire /point/ of lujvo is to have specific meanings. Tanru are the general, ill-defined ones.
 

--

[.arpis.]

Yes, but there's a difference in degree (in my mind) between specific enough to necessitate a lujvo and too specific to warrant one. Note that I did use a lujvo and not the tanru {surla bloti}. We don't need (or want) a lujvo for "programming language theory computer lab", which is where I'm currently sitting (lojban.org is down so I don't have the translations of the terms available, but you get my point). It is in lojban's philosophy (in stark contrast to English) _not_ to overspecify)

If I wanted to talk about a yacht, (and I meant specifically a yacht and not just a boat intended for leisure purposes that happened to be a yacht; i.e. the yacht-ness was important), I would be inclined to go for a stage 2 fu'ivla e.g. {lo me la iat}.

[Mark E. Shoulson]

On 09/14/2012 03:00 PM, .arpis. wrote:
> It seems to me against the spirit of lojban to try to define a lujvo
> to mean something so specific (and culturally specific) as "yacht";
> I'd use {surblo} to mean "boat used for relaxation" and let context
> disambiguate whether I meant cruise ship or yacht.

I have yet to be convinced that simply {bloti} isn't sufficient. It
depends on the context, of course, but even if you need to say it's a
yacht and not just a boat, why not _explain what you mean_, in lujvo,
tanru, even whole phrases, and then just call it a {bloti} from then on?

~mark

[.arpis.]

I'm not averse to that.

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[Mark E. Shoulson]

It's a general peeve of mine.  People seem to expect that there must be *a* word that *exactly* translates some nuance of meaning that their native language happens to encapsulate in one lexeme.  A lojban of all fu'ivla is hardly a Lojban.  And even if you find one, even if there *is* a good lujvo for it, I'm still not sure you shouldn't fall back on the general gismu term once it's been introduced, or at least for variety in the text, like a synonym.

We've also got the brod* series.  Mathematicians have no problem defining their specialized operations at the beginning of a paper and then using the symbols.  Particularly for technical or even slightly technical work, it's quite reasonable to explain these concepts you're going to be using, and take your time and don't try to cram them all into a lujvo, and simple use {ce'u} to assign it to a brod*, or even better, to a nonce lujvo that people reading the paper will now be able to understand even though it is highly simplified.

And don't get me started on fu'ivla...

~mark

On 09/14/2012 05:57 PM, .arpis. wrote:

I'm not averse to that.

On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 5:16 PM, Mark E. Shoulson <ma...@kli.org> wrote:

On 09/14/2012 03:00 PM, .arpis. wrote:

It seems to me against the spirit of lojban to try to define a lujvo to mean something so specific (and culturally specific) as "yacht"; I'd use {surblo} to mean "boat used for relaxation" and let context disambiguate whether I meant cruise ship or yacht.

I have yet to be convinced that simply {bloti} isn't sufficient.  It depends on the context, of course, but even if you need to say it's a yacht and not just a boat, why not _explain what you mean_, in lujvo, tanru, even whole phrases, and then just call it a {bloti} from then on?

~mark

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mu'o mi'e .arpis.

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[la gleki]

On Saturday, September 15, 2012 2:42:57 AM UTC+4, Mark wrote:

It's a general peeve of mine.  People seem to expect that there must be *a* word that *exactly* translates some nuance of meaning that their native language happens to encapsulate in one lexeme.  A lojban of all fu'ivla is hardly a Lojban.  And even if you find one, even if there *is* a good lujvo for it, I'm still not sure you shouldn't fall back on the general gismu term once it's been introduced, or at least for variety in the text, like a synonym.

I completely agree. When we get more nalglico jbopre they will try to import words from their own mother tongues. This will turn lojban into a semantic junkyard of all natlangs in the world. Well, nothing wrong in {iaxto}. Nothing wrong in {taksi} for "taxi". 

We are a global community. Usage decides in lojban semantics (but not in lojbanic syntax where I completely agree with Robin, syntax must be strictly regulated).

[Betsemes]

Okay,
After reading all of this about cultural neutrality et all, I guess
this would be acceptable:
leisure boat: surblo: x1 is a yacht/cruise ship/leisure boat(or ship)

owned by x2, propelled by x3

cruise ship: surli'ubrablo: x1 is a cruise ship owned/operated by x2
yacht: iaxti: x1 is a yacht owned/used by x2, propelled by x3

The current most accepted concept of yacht is (if I have not
misunderstood the concept) it being a boat or a relatively small ship
(currently, the largest one is 163.5 metres long) used for
recreational purposes, be it traveling, partying, racing, etc., even
living aboard. They may be powered by internal combustion engines or
by the wind (sails or kites).

[MorphemeAddict]

On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 8:31 AM, Jonathan Jones <eye...@gmail.com> wrote:

My only objection to the use of sivni is that sivni is private as in private thoughts, but I don't really have a better alternative. "Private property" isn't property kept hidden or in secret, it's merely something owned by an individual (or sometimes a small group of individuals like in the case of family-owned and timeshares). But as I said, I don't have any good alternatives- I don't think pukypreposblo is better.

hyphen: pukypreposyblo

stevo 

[MorphemeAddict]

On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 5:16 PM, Mark E. Shoulson <ma...@kli.org> wrote:

+1

stevo 

~mark

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[Jacob Errington]

I seriously suggest ke / -kem-. In fact, I thought about raising the point earlier, when I saw {za'i surla kei barda bloti} which is a "(relaxingly big) boat".

Anyway, I have a more constructive suggestion for "private": what about {tolgubni} ?

gubni = x1 is public/jointly owned/accessible to x2.

tolgubni = pei x1 is private, owned/accesible only to x2.

.i mi'e la tsani mu'o

[Michael Turniansky]

  As to a word for "yacht", I'm surprised no one has suggested "balblo"

   --gejyspa

[Jonathan Jones]

As mentioned previously on this thread, size isn't the determining factor for whether a boat is a yacht, and there are many ships (ex.: cruise ships, cargo ships, tankers, aircraft carriers) that are big and are /not/ yachts.

[Michael Turniansky]

  Which is why I did not say "brablo"  Private owership of ANY size boat, even a dinghy, is a "great" thing that would impress others.  See definition of banli.

      --gejyspa

[Jonathan Jones]

Sorry, that was an anglicism on my part. I was thinking of the sense of great that is synonymous with large. Don't ask me why.