Briefly: I don't consider either Loglan or Lojban viable auxlangs.They weren't designed for it. Their use of logical predicatestructure, while making simple sentences easy to produce, also bloatsthe lexicon, because you technically need a new predicate every timeyou change the underlying structure--something regular languages useadpositions to do. Unfortunately, they weren't designed for ease ofderivation, either: Loglanists were originally supposed to chaintogether individual predicate words, much as in Toki Pona. Thelanguage was designed for that--it still is, despite some retrofits.But it doesn't work. At least it doesn't if your predicate words areall [CCV/CVC]CV in form and you have no good way to borrow. (Loglanwas originally supposed to be an experimental language, remember, notnecessarily a full-fledged everyday language.) So soon groda madzo("big make"/enlarge) became groma, clika rando sonma madzo ("similarend sound make"/rhyme) became cliransonma, and so on--without any realderivational system.Now, this wasn't entirely a bad thing, because there was no system forfiguring out the structure of these new predicates either, and if apredicate's structure is incomplete, you begin generating nonsensesentences the moment you do much with negation or quantification.Lojbanists ignore this problem for some reason, though it's fairlyobvious, with the result that Lojban is pretty much designed toproduce gibberish for at least some predicates.Anyway--to simplify derivation, the Great Morphological Revisionmodified permissible predicate shapes and introduced"djifoa"--abbreviated "affixes" for at least the more productiveroots. You can't predict which roots will have djifoa, nor what theirform will be, but once you memorize the djifoa, formal derivation isfairly automatic.This is clearly an awkward solution--a retrofit to fix a fatal designflaw. What still astonishes me is that when the Lojbanists leftLoglan, they faithfully copied both flaw and retrofit. I would'veredesigned the system completely to eliminate the problem from thebeginning, but when I mentioned this to various Lojbanists, includingLeChevalier, their leader, they all replied that the djifoa system wasingenious and worth preserving--they even took credit for it.I've considered releasing a total reboot of Loglan without themorphological and derivational bugs, but I think languages based onlogical predicates are inherently unnatural. Human languages are basedon linguistic predicates, which are in turn based on an overarchingweb of relationships (case, etc.), not on mere place structure. One ofmy personal oddities as a Loglanist was that I actually memorized theplace structures of predicates; most Loglanists (and Lojbanists, Ithink) just memorized the basic meanings. But there's a differencebetweenmadzo = makeandmadzo = X makes Y from/out of Z.Compare this withbrudi = X is a brother of Y through parents Z.From a linguistic standpoint, the relationships differ sharply; aslogical predicates, however, their structures are identical. Loglanmitigated this with a system of case tags, which the Lojbanistsrejected. My Loglan 2.0 would be based on such a case system.
> I don't consider either Loglan or Lojban viable auxlangs.
Neither do I, so I can't see how this could support any furhter argument.
Anyway, I quickly browsed the rest.
If I understood correctly, the author would have created a spin-off of
Loglan in a different way and his way would have been much better than
Lojban.
The problem is that he didn't.
I'll be very interested in his effort, I hope he will let us know when
he has completed his equivlent of CLL so we can compare the two
languages.
remod
I especially retain this one :
natlangs are based on "linguistic predicates", Lojban on "logical
predicates". Linguistic predicates come in more naturally and allow
more semantic flexibility.
2012/2/24, Remo Dentato <rden...@gmail.com>:
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Lojban does have adpositions (sumtcita). All members of BAI are prepositions,
and tense markers can also be used as prepositions.
> From a linguistic standpoint, the relationships differ sharply; as
> logical predicates, however, their structures are identical. Loglan
> mitigated this with a system of case tags, which the Lojbanists
> rejected. My Loglan 2.0 would be based on such a case system.
What does he mean?
Pierre
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-- lo xlarai se cinmo cu ka nonkansa kei na gi'e ka ba'o se tolmorji zo'e noi do ba ze'e na kakne lo nu tolmorji fi ke'a
On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 7:47 PM, la .lindar. <lindar...@gmail.com> wrote:
> He also seems to think there's no rule for making compound words. There is, in fact, a very rigid system that can be unambiguously disassembled into component words.
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mu'o mi'e .arpis.
If that lujvo were to be defined, and people found its place structure hard
to memorize, they could still use modal tags like {fi'o ve lujvo}. In tanru you
have the additional option of using linked sumti...
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