The pronunciation of "o"

[Matthew Ewer]

Just started learning lojban today, and I can't find a strong consensus on the pronunciation of "o", which is...frustrating.  It's in the name of the language.

Note that I speak American English, and pronounce the examples given as such.  And maybe that's my problem.

There are two sides:

1. "O" as in "thought" (or "bought", "lot", "mob", "Bob", etc.)

2. "O" as in "boat" (or "throat", "probe", "loan", "dome", etc.)

In camp 1, "thought":
https://mw.lojban.org/papri/The_Crash_Course_(a_draft) - "as in choice, not or ough in thought (not as in so, o should be a "pure" sound)."
https://www.reddit.com/r/lojban/comments/4nf60x/pronunciation_question/ - ""note" is certainly a misleading example. {o} in Lojban is like "OUGH" in "thought", like Spanish "o", it's [o] in English transcription."

Inconsistent:
http://www.omniglot.com/writing/lojban.htm - The recorded pronunciations here are inconsistent.  In the bottom one it sounds like "thought", but in the top one it sounds like "boat".

In camp 2, "boat":
https://la-lojban.github.io/sutysisku/cirkotci.html - (recording)
https://mw.lojban.org/images/b/b1/Lojban_interactive.swf - (recording)
https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Lojban/Sounds_and_alphabet - "Back mid vowel, as in open, NOT as in opera"
http://www.lojban.org/publications/level0/brochure-utf/phonol.html - "joke, note"

It is kinda leaning towards camp "boat", as I've gone hunting for further evidence, but the first link especially ("'thought', not 'so'") confuses me, it being on the official lojban page.

Explanations?

Thanks,

Matthew Ewer

[solpahi]

I understand your confusion. All of this could have been avoided if the
pages had used IPA or linked to sound recordings.

Lojban {o} can be pronounced as either IPA [o]
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/84/Close-mid_back_rounded_vowel.ogg)
or IPA [ɔ]
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/02/Open-mid_back_rounded_vowel.ogg).


The diphthong in "boat","throat" etc. should not be used for {o}.

~~~mi'e la solpa'i

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[gleki.is...@gmail.com]

Em sábado, 25 de fevereiro de 2017 12:44:54 UTC+3, selpa'i escreveu:

I understand your confusion. All of this could have been avoided if the
pages had used IPA or linked to sound recordings.

If la cirkotci incorrectly utters {o} then we need a new recording.

[Mike S.]

The underlying reason of your confusion, I believe, is that there is no consistent vowel sound that can be heard across all of the world's English dialects (or even just the major ones) that is closely equivalent to the Lojban "o".  All the English vowels near "o" tend to be weird in one way or another, varying, merging, diphthongizing, etc.  So Lojban guide authors are naturally and understandably hesitant to give a precise "this is it" definition for "o" to English speakers.

If you know any Spanish, then Spanish "o" is fine.  If you know the two Italian "o" sounds, or the two (Parisian) French ones, or the two (Standard) German ones, aim for the middle of any of those pairs.  These are close; Japanese "o" is also close.  Lojban's "o" is actually more international than English's approximations.

As a northeast American English speaker myself, I would say if you know how northeast Americans tend to pronounce the "o" in "coffee" (AW not AH), then say that vowel, but make it nice and "round" with the lips.  Otherwise, say a long-o sound as in "boat" and try to drop the useless "w" sound at the end of that sound.  That's tricky; you will need pay attention to your natural tendencies.  With practice, it's doable.

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