Talking about a color

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TR NS

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May 18, 2015, 8:53:42 PM5/18/15
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So is `ka` the trick? e.g. To say my favorite is green.

    mi trajynei lo ka crino

?

v4hn

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May 19, 2015, 4:08:32 AM5/19/15
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On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 05:53:42PM -0700, TR NS wrote:
> mi trajynei lo ka crino

I'd prefer {mi trajynei lo si'o crino}


v4hn

TR NS

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May 19, 2015, 9:40:19 AM5/19/15
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The "concept of green". That works too, I suppose. Though it seems a bit philosophical. 

I wonder if there needs to be a thing-in-itself/nature abstractor?

Jorge Llambías

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May 19, 2015, 4:25:09 PM5/19/15
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Is the color green green? I would say it has to be.

If it is, then "lo crino" is perfectly fine.

mu'o mi'e xorxes 

TR NS

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May 21, 2015, 10:59:10 PM5/21/15
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On Tuesday, May 19, 2015 at 4:25:09 PM UTC-4, xorxes wrote:

Is the color green green? I would say it has to be.

If it is, then "lo crino" is perfectly fine.


I thought that would mean "the-green-thing".

Gleki Arxokuna

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May 22, 2015, 2:02:35 AM5/22/15
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or  "those, which are green".


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Jorge Llambías

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May 22, 2015, 5:00:03 PM5/22/15
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On Fri, May 22, 2015 at 3:02 AM, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:
2015-05-22 5:59 GMT+03:00 TR NS <tran...@gmail.com>:
On Tuesday, May 19, 2015 at 4:25:09 PM UTC-4, xorxes wrote:

Is the color green green? I would say it has to be.

If it is, then "lo crino" is perfectly fine.

I thought that would mean "the-green-thing".

or  "those, which are green".

Yes, the one(s) that are green.  So when the color green is green, it can be referred to as "lo crino".

v4hn

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May 23, 2015, 5:09:52 AM5/23/15
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On Fri, May 22, 2015 at 06:00:02PM -0300, Jorge Llambías wrote:
> Yes, the one(s) that are green. So when the color green is green, it can
> be referred to as "lo crino".

Yes. And you would need the context to tell you whether you're talking about
green men from outer space or a color. Good luck with that.


v4hn

Jorge Llambías

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May 23, 2015, 7:34:03 AM5/23/15
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When context isn't sufficient, you add more words: "lo crino se skari", "lo crino prenu pe fi'o krasi lo kensa". That's how it always works.

TR NS

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May 23, 2015, 11:08:42 AM5/23/15
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To me, it doesn't make sense for green to have the property green. One can construe it that way and listeners will sometimes take your meaning, of course, but I'm not sure it is technically accurate. But I admit it's a tricky question. Nonetheless, if somewhere says to me out of the blue,

    mi trajynei lo crino

I wouldn't think they are saying green-the-color is their favorite, but rather "I favor the green stuff". And I'd probably be looking around for something green. It occurs to me though that trajynei might provide a simple solution itself:

    mi trajynei lo crino lo se skari
    I favor green among colors.

This is very close to your:

    mi trajynei lo crino se skari

But lacks the use of metaphor, so is more exact in meaning. Correct?


Jorge Llambías

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May 23, 2015, 11:29:01 AM5/23/15
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On Sat, May 23, 2015 at 12:08 PM, TR NS <tran...@gmail.com> wrote:

To me, it doesn't make sense for green to have the property green.

But if green is not green but just some abstract property, what would make it more likeable than any other property? What properties does the property of being green has that makes it likeable?

One can construe it that way and listeners will sometimes take your meaning, of course, but I'm not sure it is technically accurate. But I admit it's a tricky question. Nonetheless, if somewhere says to me out of the blue,

    mi trajynei lo crino

I wouldn't think they are saying green-the-color is their favorite, but rather "I favor the green stuff".

Which is not very different from favoring green. Favoring green means that given a choice between green stuff and other-color stuff you are more likely to go with green stuff, other things being equal, right? 
 
And I'd probably be looking around for something green. It occurs to me though that trajynei might provide a simple solution itself:

    mi trajynei lo crino lo se skari
    I favor green among colors.

This is very close to your:

    mi trajynei lo crino se skari

But lacks the use of metaphor, so is more exact in meaning. Correct?

It's more precise, yes, but tanru usually are not metaphors, and "crino se skari" is not metaphorical. 

Gleki Arxokuna

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May 23, 2015, 11:33:23 AM5/23/15
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2015-05-23 18:08 GMT+03:00 TR NS <tran...@gmail.com>:


On Friday, May 22, 2015 at 5:00:03 PM UTC-4, xorxes wrote:


On Fri, May 22, 2015 at 3:02 AM, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:
2015-05-22 5:59 GMT+03:00 TR NS <tran...@gmail.com>:
On Tuesday, May 19, 2015 at 4:25:09 PM UTC-4, xorxes wrote:

Is the color green green? I would say it has to be.

If it is, then "lo crino" is perfectly fine.

I thought that would mean "the-green-thing".

or  "those, which are green".

Yes, the one(s) that are green.  So when the color green is green, it can be referred to as "lo crino".

To me, it doesn't make sense for green to have the property green.

Lojban doesn't delve into philosophical issues of properties vs. objects (in philosophical sense).

One can construe it that way and listeners will sometimes take your meaning, of course, but I'm not sure it is technically accurate. But I admit it's a tricky question. Nonetheless, if somewhere says to me out of the blue,

    mi trajynei lo crino

I wouldn't think they are saying green-the-color is their favorite, but rather "I favor the green stuff". And I'd probably be looking around for something green. It occurs to me though that trajynei might provide a simple solution itself:

    mi trajynei lo crino lo se skari
    I favor green among colors.

This is very close to your:

    mi trajynei lo crino se skari

But lacks the use of metaphor, so is more exact in meaning. Correct?

I would agree that indeed a more precise solution like what xorxes said.
I think "noun + adjective" in "color green" is misleading here. Or even more correctly "color" is a word taking adjectives to construct special meanings. What is "liking color green" if not liking objects that have this color.
If you have read the well-known story by Borges you will remember that by such object you may assume all green objects in the Universe considered as one huge object.

TR NS

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May 23, 2015, 3:29:36 PM5/23/15
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On Saturday, May 23, 2015 at 11:33:23 AM UTC-4, la gleki wrote:


2015-05-23 18:08 GMT+03:00 TR NS <tran...@gmail.com>:


On Friday, May 22, 2015 at 5:00:03 PM UTC-4, xorxes wrote:


On Fri, May 22, 2015 at 3:02 AM, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:
2015-05-22 5:59 GMT+03:00 TR NS <tran...@gmail.com>:
On Tuesday, May 19, 2015 at 4:25:09 PM UTC-4, xorxes wrote:

Is the color green green? I would say it has to be.

If it is, then "lo crino" is perfectly fine.

I thought that would mean "the-green-thing".

or  "those, which are green".

Yes, the one(s) that are green.  So when the color green is green, it can be referred to as "lo crino".

To me, it doesn't make sense for green to have the property green.

Lojban doesn't delve into philosophical issues of properties vs. objects (in philosophical sense).

One can construe it that way and listeners will sometimes take your meaning, of course, but I'm not sure it is technically accurate. But I admit it's a tricky question. Nonetheless, if somewhere says to me out of the blue,

    mi trajynei lo crino

I wouldn't think they are saying green-the-color is their favorite, but rather "I favor the green stuff". And I'd probably be looking around for something green. It occurs to me though that trajynei might provide a simple solution itself:

    mi trajynei lo crino lo se skari
    I favor green among colors.

This is very close to your:

    mi trajynei lo crino se skari

But lacks the use of metaphor, so is more exact in meaning. Correct?

I would agree that indeed a more precise solution like what xorxes said.
I think "noun + adjective" in "color green" is misleading here. Or even more correctly "color" is a word taking adjectives to construct special meanings.

Ah, so you are saying that `lo crino se skari` is basically saying the same thing as `lo crino`.
 
What is "liking color green" if not liking objects that have this color.
If you have read the well-known story by Borges you will remember that by such object you may assume all green objects in the Universe considered as one huge object.


It might be a case of splitting hairs. But it seems like it would be a important distinction in conversation because I would expect the interpretation of `lo crino` to mean *some thing* that is green, not `ro lo crino` or maybe `loi crino` -- which according to Borges I guess would essentially mean the same thing as liking green. Cool.


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