A suggestion for the Lojban names of weekdays and months.
Jonathan Jones
-----
Days:
-----
A discussion about the names of the weekdays was recently held in the thread "[lojban] la za'e filjvocedra (The Age of Easy Lujvo)", about the pros and cons of the two current methods of naming the days of the week - one based on numbers, the other on concepts. {pavdei} "1-day" = {lurdei} "moon-day", to provide an example.
In this discussion, .xorxes. pointed out that the current number method is anti-intuitive, because it seems as though, for example {mumdei} would mean "five days", not "fifth day". As corollary, he pointed out two examples: {reljeftu}, "fortnight", and {mumymentu}, "five minutes". To quote him, "[T]he place structure of {djedi} screams for 'N-dei' to mean {djedi be li N}, not {djedi me'e li N}."
Personally, I found this to be a very convincing argument against the use of {pavdei} et al. as names of weekdays. It is also, if I am correct, his main reason for preferring the concept way.
I, on the other hand, do not like the concept method, for the simple reason that I really, really like having a systematic method, and that is anything but. After more discussion, I came up with the following, which is agreeable to both .xorxes. and me.
It's actually basically the exact same thing as {pavdei}, etc., except backwards. So, they would be:
{djeno} "0-day"/{djeze} "7-day" = Sunday
{djepa} "1-day" = Monday
{djere} "2-day" = Tuesday
{djeci} "3-day" = Wednesday
{djevo} "4-day" = Thursday
{djemu} "5-day" = Friday
{djexa} "6-day" = Saturday
All eight of the above words have the exact same meaning as both current methods: "x1 is a [weekday name] of week x2 in month x3"
The benefits of this method are that it is logical, systematic, and doesn't conflict with spans (as in {mumdei} = "a five day span").
The con is, obviously, they take up 8 spots in gismu space, which may or may not be an atrocity, depending on your viewpoint.
-----
Months:
-----
Through further discussion, we have also come up with a really good method for month-naming. Currently, the only Lojban words we have for the months are cmevla, i.e. {.pamast.}, {.remast.}, etc. .xorxes. came up with a really good alternative, similar to my idea with the weeks, for each of the months, which are the following fu'ivla, based around {lunra}:
{lunrapa} "1-month" = January
{lunrare} "2-month" = February
{lunraci} "3-month" = March
{lunravo} "4-month" = April
{lunramu} "5-month" = May
{lunraxa} "6-month" = June
{lunraze} "7-month" = July
{lunrabi} "8-month" = August
{lunraso} "9-month" = September
{lunradau} "10-month" = October
{lunrafei} "11-month" = November
{lunragai} "12-month" = December
This has the advantage over the current cmevla method in that, being fu'ivla, we can give them place structure and use them in all the ways cmene can NOT be used. I don't see any cons at all, but I may be mistaken.
Since it is .xorxes. idea, I direct you to him for the proposed definitions, although I'm certain that it will begin "x1 is month N ...."
-----
In conclusion, it is my desire to inform the whole of jbogugde about these ideas and to get feedback , and to possibly confuse you lot to start using them whenever you are talking about days of the week or about months.
Feedback, suggestions, criticisms, praise, and flaming are all welcome and appreciated. :D
(I'm double-posting this to both lojban lists, please respond on the beginner's.)
--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.
.i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
Luke Bergen
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Jonathan Jones
I like it. My only comment is, what's wrong with cmevla? Why not make them .djepav. etc... Given xorxes' other proposal about merging cmevla into brivla, this wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing (assuming that I understand his other proposal well enough) and it wouldn't be infringing on the gismu space (not that I'm all that uncomfortable with that).
No reason other than it depends on .xorxes. proposal being approved. Actually, I'm ambivalent about {.djepav.} et al. over {djepa} et al.; as far as I'm concerned they're equivalent, especially in consideration of .xorxes. proposal to merge cmevla with brivla. But, unless and until .xorxes. merger proposal is accepted, cmevla can't have definitions like "{.djepav.} = 'x1 is a Monday of week x2 in month x3'", because as it stands, all cmevla have the same meaning, excepting the tiny detail of what the name is.
However, I don't think using {.djepav.} instead is really all that great a benefit, because if we use it, and then for some reason decide to create a meaning for {djepa}, and it doesn't have anything to do with {.djepav.}, I'm certain massive confusions will arise from it.
Jonathan Jones
In conclusion, it is my desire to inform the whole of jbogugde about these ideas and to get feedback , and to possibly confuse you lot to start using them whenever you are talking about days of the week or about months.
<snip>
Um, I just noticed this, so forgive me, I meant to say "convince you lot", not "confuse you lot".
Lindar
To take up that many spaces for named days of the week?
Also, xorxes' suggested merge of cmeva and brivla doesn't seem likely.
Why not {pavmomdei}? We already have {bavlamdei} and {prulamdei} so
another three-rafsi lujvo isn't that terrible.
I can appreciate that you found the fault in the current scheme, but
your proposal is a terrible idea.
The zi'evla for the months, not so much. I think it's kinda cool.
Really, the whole idea behind the proposal is pretty cool.
However, you'll never get a proposal passed for -that much- gismu
space for something that ridiculous.
{prudei} - a previous day
{prulamdei} - yesterday
{cabdei} - today
{bavlamdei} - tomorrow
{bavdei} - a future day
nonmomdei
pavmomdei
relmomdei
cibmomdei
vonmomdei
mumymomdei
xavmomdei
zelmomdei
or even...
djenonmoi
djepavmoi
djerelmoi
djecibmoi
djevonmoi
djemomymoi
djezelmoi
Remo Dentato
> -----
> Days:
> -----
> {djeNN}
I like it. giving a gismu-like name to weekdays seems more a good
thing thana bad thing to me!
> -----
> Months:
> -----
>months [...] are the following fu'ivla, based around {lunra}:
The only doubt that I have about using {lunra} is that it may suggest
a lunar calendar wih 28, 29 or 30 days months plus some extra day here
and there like it happens today for some culture. unfortunately I have
no alternative suggestion.
remod
Remo Dentato
> As grand as all of this is, I would have to say hell no.
>
> To take up that many spaces for named days of the week?
I don't think is very likely to create new gismu these days. And even
if we were doing that, those would be too similar gismu to be used for
different meanings (I seem to remember that this was one of the
criteria when gisum were chosen).
So, i don't see this as a major showstopper for the proposal.
remod
David Gowers (kampu)
> On Wed, Oct 6, 2010 at 8:15 AM, Lindar <lindar...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> As grand as all of this is, I would have to say hell no.
>>
>> To take up that many spaces for named days of the week?
>
> I don't think is very likely to create new gismu these days. And even
> if we were doing that, those would be too similar gismu to be used for
> different meanings (I seem to remember that this was one of the
> criteria when gisum were chosen).
cf [[badna, badri],
[bakni, bakfu, bakri],
[balji, balni, balre, balvi],
[bancu, bandu, banfi, bangu, banli, banxa, banzu], (!)
[barda, bargu, barja, barna, bartu],
[basna, basti],
[batci, batke]]
(and that is just for 'b'!)
Remo Dentato
> On Wed, Oct 6, 2010 at 5:16 PM, Remo Dentato <rden...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, Oct 6, 2010 at 8:15 AM, Lindar <lindar...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> As grand as all of this is, I would have to say hell no.
>>>
>>> To take up that many spaces for named days of the week?
>>
>> I don't think is very likely to create new gismu these days. And even
>> if we were doing that, those would be too similar gismu to be used for
>> different meanings (I seem to remember that this was one of the
>> criteria when gisum were chosen).
>
> cf [[badna, badri],
> [batci, batke]]
>
> (and that is just for 'b'!)
Ok, point taken.
But still the probability of making new gismu these day (and in the
foreseeable future) seems low to me.
Lindar
continue to be ignored. Your proposal to take up eight places in gismu
space for days of the week will be shot down. Unless you can format
your argument entirely in very understandable Lojban, you're not going
to get even one word into gismu space. It's just not going to happen.
So, you can either go with my suggestion, use the current standard, or
go with something like what selkik has proposed in another thread.
That's pretty much what you're down to.
MorphemeAddict
(I'm double-posting this to both lojban lists, please respond on the beginner's.)
-----
Days:
-----
A discussion about the names of the weekdays was recently held in the thread "[lojban] la za'e filjvocedra (The Age of Easy Lujvo)", about the pros and cons of the two current methods of naming the days of the week - one based on numbers, the other on concepts. {pavdei} "1-day" = {lurdei} "moon-day", to provide an example.
In this discussion, .xorxes. pointed out that the current number method is anti-intuitive, because it seems as though, for example {mumdei} would mean "five days", not "fifth day". As corollary, he pointed out two examples: {reljeftu}, "fortnight", and {mumymentu}, "five minutes". To quote him, "[T]he place structure of {djedi} screams for 'N-dei' to mean {djedi be li N}, not {djedi me'e li N}."
Personally, I found this to be a very convincing argument against the use of {pavdei} et al. as names of weekdays. It is also, if I am correct, his main reason for preferring the concept way.
I, on the other hand, do not like the concept method, for the simple reason that I really, really like having a systematic method, and that is anything but. After more discussion, I came up with the following, which is agreeable to both .xorxes. and me.
It's actually basically the exact same thing as {pavdei}, etc., except backwards. So, they would be:
{djeno} "0-day"/{djeze} "7-day" = Sunday
{djepa} "1-day" = Monday
{djere} "2-day" = Tuesday
{djeci} "3-day" = Wednesday
{djevo} "4-day" = Thursday
{djemu} "5-day" = Friday
{djexa} "6-day" = Saturday
All eight of the above words have the exact same meaning as both current methods: "x1 is a [weekday name] of week x2 in month x3"
The benefits of this method are that it is logical, systematic, and doesn't conflict with spans (as in {mumdei} = "a five day span").
The con is, obviously, they take up 8 spots in gismu space, which may or may not be an atrocity, depending on your viewpoint.
-----
Months:
-----
Through further discussion, we have also come up with a really good method for month-naming. Currently, the only Lojban words we have for the months are cmevla, i.e. {.pamast.}, {.remast.}, etc. .xorxes. came up with a really good alternative, similar to my idea with the weeks, for each of the months, which are the following fu'ivla, based around {lunra}:
{lunrapa} "1-month" = January
{lunrare} "2-month" = February
{lunraci} "3-month" = March
{lunravo} "4-month" = April
{lunramu} "5-month" = May
{lunraxa} "6-month" = June
{lunraze} "7-month" = July
{lunrabi} "8-month" = August
{lunraso} "9-month" = September
{lunradau} "10-month" = October
{lunrafei} "11-month" = November
{lunragai} "12-month" = December
This has the advantage over the current cmevla method in that, being fu'ivla, we can give them place structure and use them in all the ways cmene can NOT be used. I don't see any cons at all, but I may be mistaken.
Since it is .xorxes. idea, I direct you to him for the proposed definitions, although I'm certain that it will begin "x1 is month N ...."
-----
In conclusion, it is my desire to inform the whole of jbogugde about these ideas and to get feedback , and to possibly confuse you lot to start using them whenever you are talking about days of the week or about months.
Feedback, suggestions, criticisms, praise, and flaming are all welcome and appreciated. :D
(I'm double-posting this to both lojban lists, please respond on the beginner's.)
--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.
.i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
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Remo Dentato
> Your proposal to take up eight places in gismu
> That's pretty much what you're down to.
I love your accomodating, open-ended way of offering suggestions :)
btw, Why not try to take advantage of the good points on xorxes proposal?
What if we use:
{djenon} "0-day"/{djezel} "7-day" = Sunday
{djepav} "1-day" = Monday
{djerel} "2-day" = Tuesday
{djecib} "3-day" = Wednesday
{djevon} "4-day" = Thursday
{djemum} "5-day" = Friday
{djexav} "6-day" = Saturday
?
They are cmene obtained with {dje-} for {djedi} and the rafsi for the number.
Jorge Llambías
>
> Why not {pavmomdei}? We already have {bavlamdei} and {prulamdei} so
> another three-rafsi lujvo isn't that terrible.
One possible issue with ordinals is the potential for confusion
between first of the week and first of the month, or even first of the
year. That may or may not be a problem, but since numbers are already
used to name days according to their position in the month, using
numbers to also name them according to their position in the week has
to be done carefully so that the two systems don't enter into
conflict.
mu'o mi'e xorxes
Jorge Llambías
> On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 10:54 PM, Jonathan Jones <eye...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> {lunrapa} "1-month" = January
>> {lunrare} "2-month" = February
>> {lunraci} "3-month" = March
>> {lunravo} "4-month" = April
>> {lunramu} "5-month" = May
>> {lunraxa} "6-month" = June
>> {lunraze} "7-month" = July
>> {lunrabi} "8-month" = August
>> {lunraso} "9-month" = September
>> {lunradau} "10-month" = October
>> {lunrafei} "11-month" = November
>> {lunragai} "12-month" = December
>>
"masti" wouldn't work there because "st" is a valid initial, so
"mastipa" = "ma stipa".
> Using "zei" as above, we get
>
> masti zei pa = January
> masti zei re = February
> masti zei ci = March
> masti zei vo = April
> masti zei mu = May
> masti zei xa = June
> masti zei ze = July
> masti zei bi = August
> masti zei so = September
> masti zei pano / masti zei dau = October
> masti zei papa / masti zei fei = November
> masti zei pare / masti zei gai = December
>
> How's that?
You need:
masti zei pa zei no
masti zei pa zei pa
masti zei pa zei re
Remo Dentato
> On Wed, Oct 6, 2010 at 6:03 AM, MorphemeAddict <lyt...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 10:54 PM, Jonathan Jones <eye...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Here I see no reason to use "lunra" when "masti" is available.
>
> "masti" wouldn't work there because "st" is a valid initial, so
> "mastipa" = "ma stipa".
If having cmene for months and days names would work (I'm not clear if
there's any problem with that) we could have {ma'ipav} for January and
so on up to {ma'igaib} ('b' added arbitrarily) or {ma'iparel} for
December.
Is there any problem on having a cmene rather than a brivla? After all
it's what January is: a name.
Remo
Remo Dentato
I always thought that Lojbanistan was using International Fixed
Calendar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Fixed_Calendar)
for cultural neutrality!
:)
Jorge Llambías
>
> If having cmene for months and days names would work (I'm not clear if
> there's any problem with that) we could have {ma'ipav} for January and
> so on up to {ma'igaib} ('b' added arbitrarily) or {ma'iparel} for
> December.
We already have pamast, remast, cimast, etc as cmevla. The thing with
cmevla is their artificially restricted grammar, so I can't use "la
.cimast. cicyractu" for "the March Hare" in Alice, and I refuse to use
"la me la .cimast. cicyractu".
(I currently have "la cibymasti cicyractu", but to me that sounds more
like "the Three Months Old Hare".)
> Is there any problem on having a cmene rather than a brivla? After all
> it's what January is: a name.
It would be much less of a problem if cmevla were syntactically more flexible.
Amber Shadow
way will fit lojban much better than the concept (japanese, chinese)
way, as well as being easy to remember and learn.
I personally like how it sounds ending in a vowel myself, but that's
just my opinion.
I also think it's brilliant to use {lunra} for the months. Because,
well, it makes sense. You say {djepa} and you know oh, it's {day-1}.
You say {lunrapa} and you know oh, it's {moon-[cycle]-1}. It just
makes sense. To me at least.
In short, I like it! Do it!
On Oct 5, 8:36 pm, Jonathan Jones <eyeo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> .
> >>http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en.
>
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Michael Eaton
As far as the existing standards for naming / numbering days go, the 'numeric' standard, as rightly pointed out, can cause some syntax issues, though these are slight and not amazingly difficult to work around, while the 'conceptual' standard is rather un-lojban in approach, being far less intuitive than a numbered system.
As for alternatives proposed in this very thread, would you really rather use, for instance, a fairly wieldy lujvo for so simple a concept as days of the week?
I'm not saying that days of the week SHOULD take up gismu space, nor am I saying that they will, I'm merely pointing out that the alternatives come with their own problems, and the use of gismu space would hardly be the travesty it is being made out to be.
-----Original Message-----
From: lojban-b...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:lojban-b...@googlegroups.com]On Behalf Of Lindar
Sent: 06 October 2010 09:30
To: Lojban Beginners
Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: A suggestion for the Lojban names of
weekdays and months.
Either way, the point still stands. xorxes' proposal is likely to
continue to be ignored. Your proposal to take up eight places in gismu
space for days of the week will be shot down. Unless you can format
your argument entirely in very understandable Lojban, you're not going
to get even one word into gismu space. It's just not going to happen.
So, you can either go with my suggestion, use the current standard, or
go with something like what selkik has proposed in another thread.
That's pretty much what you're down to.
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Ruler11
indeed. But "masti" is the only possible valsi.
Can't accept it.
.alyn.post.
> However, you'll never get a proposal passed for -that much- gismu
> space for something that ridiculous.
>
Lindar,
So that I might better understand, what kind of proposal would be
insufficiently ridiculous for proposing 7 gismu? I'd like to better
understand what is and isn't a worthly proposal for adding gismu,
outside of this specific proposal to add 7 gismu for days of the
week.
-Alan
--
.i ko djuno fi le do sevzi
Luke Bergen
- It has the sequential nature that a rational logical system should have.
- It's very flexible for different calendars to invent new day words without necessarily conflicting with other calendars by adding more fine grained color words for more days to a week or more broad color words for fewer days.
- It completely avoids the problem that xorxes pointed out of colliding with the Nday long periods system.
- I can't think of anything off the top of my head that would make sense for xundei, et al so not likely to collide with future lujvo.
- Don't need to worry about cmevla vs taking up gismu space vs etc... All the weekday words under gejyspa's system are canonical form lujvo.
- It's an original piece of lojban culture that isn't merely a copy off of other cultures techniques for naming days (hey imagine that!)
- It's prettier, in my opinion.
.alyn.post.
> > Is there any problem on having a cmene rather than a brivla? After all
> > it's what January is: a name.
>
> It would be much less of a problem if cmevla were syntactically more flexible.
>
xorxes,
Is there a proposal written to make them more flexible? I'm not
current on your proposals, and so I can't tell here if you're
alluding to a proposal that would correct this or if this problem
doesn't yet have a clear solution.
.alyn.post.
I was hoping I wasn't going to be the first person to question why
weeks had to have 7 days, or why the Gregorian Calendar was assumed
to be universal.
There are many fascinating proposals regarding calendar reform:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calendar_reform
The one that got the most traction was eventually blocked on
religious objections, namely that it didn't have repeating 7-day
cycles:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Calendar
I've personally wanted to see a marriage of lunar and solar
calendars along a 19-year cycle:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metonic_cycle
Having said all of this, my own attempts to follow a non-gregorian
calendar, with or without Lojban, has been a struggle in
reconciling any new calendar system with the world's use of the
gregorian calendar.
Jorge Llambías
<alyn...@lodockikumazvati.org> wrote:
> xorxes,
>
> Is there a proposal written to make them more flexible? I'm not
> current on your proposals, and so I can't tell here if you're
> alluding to a proposal that would correct this or if this problem
> doesn't yet have a clear solution.
I think it's written somewhere with the rest of the proposals, but
it's very simple, so I can write it here again:
Proposal: Merge CMEVLA with BRIVLA.
In other words, allow CMEVLA to be used exactly in the same places
where BRIVLA can be used.
.alyn.post.
.i .ui je'e ki'e mu'o mi'e .alyn.
Michael Turniansky
Luke Bergen
--
Michael Turniansky
Ok then, remove that one bullet point. I believe there are still 4 or 5 other fine points (and one subjective one). If we're going to pick an arbitrary sequence for defining week-day names, why not color? Are numbers more sequential than colors on a spectrum? And it avoids the confusion of "5 day time interval" as opposed to "5th day".... and it isn't a cmevla or take up gismu space.Was your suggestion mostly a joke gejyspa or was there any seriousness to it?
Luke Bergen
.alyn.post.
What makes color superior to texture (smooth => rough) progression?
What makes color superior to temperature (cold => hot) progression?
Or, in a single question, is color sufficiently arbitrary, or is it
equally arbitrary to other sensation scales? I see your argument of
color vs. numbers, but what is the argument for color vs. other
sensory progression?
-Alan
On Wed, Oct 06, 2010 at 01:26:51PM -0400, Luke Bergen wrote:
> Ok then, remove that one bullet point. I believe there are still 4 or 5
> other fine points (and one subjective one). If we're going to pick an
> arbitrary sequence for defining week-day names, why not color? Are numbers
> more sequential than colors on a spectrum? And it avoids the confusion of
> "5 day time interval" as opposed to "5th day".... and it isn't a cmevla or
> take up gismu space.
> Was your suggestion mostly a joke gejyspa or was there any seriousness to
> it?
>
> On Wed, Oct 6, 2010 at 1:19 PM, Michael Turniansky
> <[1]mturn...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Wed, Oct 6, 2010 at 11:56 AM, Luke Bergen <[2]lukea...@gmail.com>
> [3]lojban-b...@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> [4]lojban-beginne...@googlegroups.com.
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> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en.
>
> References
>
> Visible links
> 1. mailto:mturn...@gmail.com
> 2. mailto:lukea...@gmail.com
> 3. mailto:lojban-b...@googlegroups.com
> 4. mailto:lojban-beginners%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com
> 5. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en
Michael Turniansky
What makes color superior to phonetic ('a', 'e', ...) progression?
What makes color superior to texture (smooth => rough) progression?
What makes color superior to temperature (cold => hot) progression?
Or, in a single question, is color sufficiently arbitrary, or is it
equally arbitrary to other sensation scales? I see your argument of
color vs. numbers, but what is the argument for color vs. other
sensory progression?
-Alan
Luke Bergen
.alyn.post.
> On Wed, Oct 6, 2010 at 1:47 PM, .alyn.post.
> <[1]alyn...@lodockikumazvati.org> wrote:
>
> What makes color superior to phonetic ('a', 'e', ...) progression?
> What makes color superior to texture (smooth => rough) progression?
> What makes color superior to temperature (cold => hot) progression?
>
> Or, in a single question, is color sufficiently arbitrary, or is it
> equally arbitrary to other sensation scales? I see your argument of
> color vs. numbers, but what is the argument for color vs. other
> sensory progression?
>
> -Alan
>
> Ahhh... but that's the beauty of color, it's NOT a "progression". It is a
> circle. So you don't have one culture saying "it should start on THIS
> day", and another saying "it should start on THAT day"...
> That objection aside, I have no preference for ANY circular, culturally
> unbiased system. It was just the first to be suggested, as opposed to
> number, which have a beginning and end, just like your examples, and
> "arbitrary" substance/diety naming.
> --gejyspa
Ah, I was thinking of color in the sense of "wavelength" rather than
color in the sense of "color wheel."
-Alan
Lindar
^
|
|
|
Now you can all stop arguing.
The day we switch to an obviously better calendar like fixed
international (weeks should start on Monday, that's how they work in
the corporate world, that's how they should be, and frankly I could
give two shits about what the religious people think because half of
them are too loopy to be on board with anything in the first place let
alone Lojban [plenty of offence meant to people that would be offended
by this, none to those who wouldn't be]) is also the day we switch to
dozenal, stop selling cigarettes, forever get rid of the drug problem,
finally feed Africa, and make marijuana legal everywhere.
=D
Stop idealising. Make something that works for the current standard,
then fuck off with your ideals and show us how to use it.
So, back to my point, {li pa lo'o detri} is the first day of the week.
Add {pi} and expand as necessary to week number, month number, year
number, etc. If you want to lujvo it, pavdetri, pavypizyreldetri, etc.
Have fun, and you can thank me later.
.alyn.post.
I believe you add {pi'e}, rather than {pi}, as day, week, and month
is not base-10.
Luke Bergen
Adam Lopresto
Regardless of whether of not the use of gismu space is allowed, I don't really see any truly compelling reason why it shouldn't. The ability to accurately and clearly define a specific day of the week is a not entirely inconsequential function of language, and, regardless of who you are, it IS a part of your everyday communication. The difference between being able to say 'tuesday', as opposed to having to say 'the day two days after the next day', is not one to be overlooked.
As far as the existing standards for naming / numbering days go, the 'numeric' standard, as rightly pointed out, can cause some syntax issues, though these are slight and not amazingly difficult to work around, while the 'conceptual' standard is rather un-lojban in approach, being far less intuitive than a numbered system.
As for alternatives proposed in this very thread, would you really rather use, for instance, a fairly wieldy lujvo for so simple a concept as days of the week?
I'm not saying that days of the week SHOULD take up gismu space, nor am I saying that they will, I'm merely pointing out that the alternatives come with their own problems, and the use of gismu space would hardly be the travesty it is being made out to be.
-----Original Message-----
From: lojban-b...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:lojban-b...@googlegroups.com]On Behalf Of Lindar
Sent: 06 October 2010 09:30
To: Lojban Beginners
Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: A suggestion for the Lojban names of
weekdays and months.
Either way, the point still stands. xorxes' proposal is likely to
continue to be ignored. Your proposal to take up eight places in gismu
space for days of the week will be shot down. Unless you can format
your argument entirely in very understandable Lojban, you're not going
to get even one word into gismu space. It's just not going to happen.
So, you can either go with my suggestion, use the current standard, or
go with something like what selkik has proposed in another thread.
That's pretty much what you're down to.
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.alyn.post.
to going into my killfile, though the content of his messages is
very good.
Reading them, however, sometimes makes my day worse.
Lindar, I really really enjoy listening to your ideas and I get a
lot of out them. I struggle some days to read past the tone of your
e-mail, and that struggle is getting closer to my acting on it by
filtering your e-mail out of my inbox. I would really rather not do
this. I request that you separate your proposals and suggestions from
judgement or dismissiveness of other ideas. Your proposals are
strong enough to stand on their own merit.
-Alan
On Wed, Oct 06, 2010 at 02:14:44PM -0400, Luke Bergen wrote:
> wow, you actually are kind of a prick from time to time. I took no offence
> to anything you said but jeeze-oh-man. Could you get any more... intense?
> As far as I can tell, nobody here is being argumentative. We're having
> discussions about pros and cons of various systems before we decide on
> which (if any) should be standard.
>
> On Wed, Oct 6, 2010 at 2:02 PM, Lindar <[1]lindar...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> detri
>
> ^
> |
> |
> |
>
> Now you can all stop arguing.
>
> The day we switch to an obviously better calendar like fixed
> international (weeks should start on Monday, that's how they work in
> the corporate world, that's how they should be, and frankly I could
> give two shits about what the religious people think because half of
> them are too loopy to be on board with anything in the first place let
> alone Lojban [plenty of offence meant to people that would be offended
> by this, none to those who wouldn't be]) is also the day we switch to
> dozenal, stop selling cigarettes, forever get rid of the drug problem,
> finally feed Africa, and make marijuana legal everywhere.
>
> =D
>
> Stop idealising. Make something that works for the current standard,
> then fuck off with your ideals and show us how to use it.
>
> So, back to my point, {li pa lo'o detri} is the first day of the week.
> Add {pi} and expand as necessary to week number, month number, year
> number, etc. If you want to lujvo it, pavdetri, pavypizyreldetri, etc.
>
> Have fun, and you can thank me later.
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "Lojban Beginners" group.
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>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
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> To post to this group, send email to lojban-b...@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
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> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en.
>
> References
>
> Visible links
> 1. mailto:lindar...@yahoo.com
> 2. mailto:lojban-b...@googlegroups.com
> 3. mailto:lojban-beginners%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com
> 4. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en
Remo Dentato
> I think it's written somewhere with the rest of the proposals, but
> it's very simple, so I can write it here again:
>
> Proposal: Merge CMEVLA with BRIVLA.
>
> In other words, allow CMEVLA to be used exactly in the same places
> where BRIVLA can be used.
I like it but would this mean that {.alis.} would have the meaning
of "x1 is named Alice"?
If this is the case, how would {le} and {lo} work? Would {le .alis.}
be the same as {la .alis.} ?
Michael Turniansky
I'm conflicted by this message as well. Lindar's e-mail is very close
to going into my killfile, though the content of his messages is
very good.
Reading them, however, sometimes makes my day worse.
Lindar, I really really enjoy listening to your ideas and I get a
lot of out them. I struggle some days to read past the tone of your
e-mail, and that struggle is getting closer to my acting on it by
filtering your e-mail out of my inbox. I would really rather not do
this. I request that you separate your proposals and suggestions from
judgement or dismissiveness of other ideas. Your proposals are
strong enough to stand on their own merit.
-Alan
la'e di'u cu krinu lo du'u la lindar se cmene zo lindar .i lo notci be fi ly. cu gasnu lo nu so'a da djica lo nu vlile darxi ly. lo linsi kei .e lo nu jai bapli lo nu ly darno da
Jorge Llambías
>
> broda: x1 is the x2th day of week number x3 of year x4, under
> calendar/system x5
> calendar/system x5
That makes a lot of sense.
> Months, we'd
> have to convert a little, though, so there might be issues there.
Yeah, I don't think that brode could be the basis for month names,
since it's basically about days of the month, not about months.
> Or maybe
> the x2 place of brode doesn't belong there, and the rest need to be shifted
> over.
Or maybe add a third:
brodi: x1 is the x2th month of year x3, under calendar/system x4
> I'm nearly certain that the weekday approach is right. I'd like to see
> proper fleshing out of the months, but I think starting from here is *much*
> better than trying to shoehorn things into {djedi} and {masti}.
I agree.
Jorge Llambías
> 2010/10/6 Jorge Llambías <jjlla...@gmail.com>:
>>
>> In other words, allow CMEVLA to be used exactly in the same places
>> where BRIVLA can be used.
>
> I like it but would this mean that {.alis.} would have the meaning
> of "x1 is named Alice"?
Basically, yes. (Probably not the case for every cmevla, but that
would be the basic case for ordinary names.)
> If this is the case, how would {le} and {lo} work? Would {le .alis.}
> be the same as {la .alis.} ?
Only to the same extent that "le me la .alis." is the same as "la .alis."
(i.e. not really, but the difference is quite subtle).
MorphemeAddict
MorphemeAddict
On Wed, Oct 6, 2010 at 6:03 AM, MorphemeAddict <lyt...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 10:54 PM, Jonathan Jones <eye...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> {lunrapa} "1-month" = January
>> {lunrare} "2-month" = February
>> {lunraci} "3-month" = March
>> {lunravo} "4-month" = April
>> {lunramu} "5-month" = May
>> {lunraxa} "6-month" = June
>> {lunraze} "7-month" = July
>> {lunrabi} "8-month" = August
>> {lunraso} "9-month" = September
>> {lunradau} "10-month" = October
>> {lunrafei} "11-month" = November
>> {lunragai} "12-month" = December
>>> Here I see no reason to use "lunra" when "masti" is available."masti" wouldn't work there because "st" is a valid initial, so
"mastipa" = "ma stipa".
> Using "zei" as above, we get
>
> masti zei pa = January
> masti zei re = February
> masti zei ci = March
> masti zei vo = April
> masti zei mu = May
> masti zei xa = June
> masti zei ze = July
> masti zei bi = August
> masti zei so = September
> masti zei pano / masti zei dau = October
> masti zei papa / masti zei fei = November
> masti zei pare / masti zei gai = December
>
> How's that?
You need:
masti zei pa zei no
masti zei pa zei pa
masti zei pa zei re
mu'o mi'e xorxes
Jonathan Jones
(Unfortunately, I can't find a wikipedia article about it, so the neo-pagan Wheel of the Year article will have to do: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheel_of_the_year)
--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.
.i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
Lindar
Lindar'. It breaks the meaning of names. Also, sorry for the language.
I get annoyed when discussions get sidetracked by idealism. Create the
words (detri is what you want), then work on the system. We have a
word for both of the things proposed, detri.
Jonathan Jones
I like this idea. Actually, I think works much better than any proposal to date. I would suggest that, instead of having the broda brode and brodi, to have broda, brodi, and rodbrodi for brode instead.
Furthermore, I suggest {detla} for broda, with the rafsi {dle}, which I do not believe is taken yet, for {pavdle}, etc., and {masla} for brodi, with the rafsi {msa}, assuming that's a valid rafsi, which I doubt, which yields {dlemasla} for brode.
Jonathan Jones
Pierre Abbat
> Furthermore, I suggest {detla} for broda, with the rafsi {dle}, which I do
> not believe is taken yet, for {pavdle}, etc., and {masla} for brodi, with
> the rafsi {msa}, assuming that's a valid rafsi, which I doubt, which yields
> {dlemasla} for brode.
All rafsi have to be valid as the start of a word, so neither {dle} nor {msa}
is a valid rafsi.
Pierre
--
.i toljundi do .ibabo mi'afra tu'a do
.ibabo damba do .ibabo do jinga
.icu'u la ma'atman.
Jonathan Jones
Stela Selckiku
<alyn...@lodockikumazvati.org> wrote:
>
> I was hoping I wasn't going to be the first person to question why
> weeks had to have 7 days, or why the Gregorian Calendar was assumed
> to be universal.
Us Discordians of course use a 5-day system, which I haven't thought
yet of how to translate into Lojban. We do so purely for
wrench-throwing purposes, though, so if everything else is less
consistent with our system then all the better.
Also, while I'm on this thread: Dear Everyone: Stop proposing gismu
and rafsi. Haven't you any idea what a mess you'd make of Lojban if
you actually made new gismu with new rafsi twice a week like you're
always proposing? Make some zi'evla, we're nowhere near having too
many of those.
mi'e la stela selckiku mu'o
.alyn.post.
gimna:
x1 proposes gismu x2 and is told no by x3 because of reason THERE IS
NO x4 BECAUSE THE ANSWER IS NO.
Jonathan Jones
I think you might be overstating just a bit.
Also, I dislike zi'evla for the same reasons I dislike fu'ivla, which I will not repeat again in here because I'm sure I've said them often enough I don't need to.
Jonathan Jones
Jonathan Jones
Considering the desire for {XXV}, I'm proposing {donla} {do'a} for the aforementioned broda, which references {donri} and {la}.
I found 29 unclaimed {mXX} rafsi, although again I may be wrong about 10 of them. One of the unclaimed is {mV'V}, which is surprising.
For the aforementioned brodi, I'm proposing {mazla} {maz}, referencing {masti} and {la}.
The full list of unclaimed {dXX} rafsi are:
de'e do'a do'e do'u
dia die dii dio diu
dua due dui duo duu
dzo
def dev dez
did dif dip dis dit div dix
dob doc dod dof dog doj dok dol dom dop dos dov dox doz
duc duf dup duv dux duz
The full list of unclaimed {mXX} rafsi are:
mia mie mii mio miu
mo'e
mua mue mui muo muu
maz
med mef mep mev mez
mig miz
mod mof mog mop mot mox moz
mub mug mux
To reiterate and clarify:
"donla do'a x1 is the x2th day of week number x3 of year x4, under calendar/system x5" {pavdo'a} = "Monday", etc.
"mazla maz x1 is the x2th month of year x3, under calendar/system x4" {pavmazla} = "January", etc.
"mazdo'a d1=x1 is the d2=x2th day of month number m1=x3 of year d4=m4=x3, under calendar/system d5=m5=x5"
.alyn.post.
> To reiterate and clarify:
>
> "donla do'a x1 is the x2th day of week number x3 of year x4, under
> calendar/system x5" {pavdo'a} = "Monday", etc.
>
> "mazla maz x1 is the x2th month of year x3, under calendar/system x4"
> {pavmazla} = "January", etc.
>
> "mazdo'a d1=x1 is the d2=x2th day of month number m1=x3 of year d4=m4=x3,
> under calendar/system d5=m5=x5"
>
This is the best proposal I've seen yet, so I support it.
David Gowers (kampu)
> I found 45 unclaimed {dXX} rafsi, although possibly only 35, assuming {diV}
> and {duV} aren't permissible.
>
> Considering the desire for {XXV}, I'm proposing {donla} {do'a} for the
> aforementioned broda, which references {donri} and {la}.
>
> I found 29 unclaimed {mXX} rafsi, although again I may be wrong about 10 of
> them. One of the unclaimed is {mV'V}, which is surprising.
>
> For the aforementioned brodi, I'm proposing {mazla} {maz}, referencing
> {masti} and {la}.
>
> The full list of unclaimed {dXX} rafsi are:
>
> de'e do'a do'e do'u
> def dev dez
> did dif dip dis dit div dix
> dob doc dod dof dog doj dok dol dom dop dos dov dox doz
> duc duf dup duv dux duz
I removed the badly formed rafsi above and below
C[iu]V is invalid
>
>
> The full list of unclaimed {mXX} rafsi are:
>
> mo'e
> maz
> med mef mep mev mez
> mig miz
> mod mof mog mop mot mox moz
> mub mug mux
>
>
> To reiterate and clarify:
>
> "donla do'a x1 is the x2th day of week number x3 of year x4, under
> calendar/system x5" {pavdo'a} = "Monday", etc.
>
> "mazla maz x1 is the x2th month of year x3, under calendar/system x4"
> {pavmazla} = "January", etc.
>
> "mazdo'a d1=x1 is the d2=x2th day of month number m1=x3 of year d4=m4=x3,
> under calendar/system d5=m5=x5"
>
I also support this proposition.
Jonathan Jones
C[iu]V is invalid
<snip>
Yeah, I wasn't too sure about that, as I mentioned.
Remo Dentato
> "donla do'a x1 is the x2th day of week number x3 of year x4, under calendar/system x5"
> {pavdo'a} = "Monday", etc.
>
> "mazla maz x1 is the x2th month of year x3, under calendar/system x4"
> {pavmazla} = "January", etc.
>
> "mazdo'a d1=x1 is the d2=x2th day of month number m1=x3 of year d4=m4=x3, under calendar/system d5=m5=x5"
>
if {mo'e} is available, could we use that instead? So that January is
{pavmo'e}.
That would break the lujvo you made, though.
Jonathan Jones
Second off, why do you think {pavmo'e} is better than {pavmazla}? You gave absolutely no reasons.
Remo Dentato
> On Wed, Oct 6, 2010 at 11:48 PM, Remo Dentato <rden...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Thursday, October 7, 2010, Jonathan Jones <eye...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> "donla do'a x1 is the x2th day of week number x3 of year x4, under calendar/system x5"
>> {pavdo'a} = "Monday", etc.
>>
>> "mazla maz x1 is the x2th month of year x3, under calendar/system x4"
>> {pavmazla} = "January", etc.
>>
>> "mazdo'a d1=x1 is the d2=x2th day of month number m1=x3 of year d4=m4=x3, under calendar/system d5=m5=x5"
>>
> if {mo'e} is available, could we use that instead? So that January is
> {pavmo'e}.
> That would break the lujvo you made, though.
>
> First off, we need a gismu to have a rafsi, and since neither o nor e are in {mazla}, that means you'd have to make a different word.
>
> Second off, why do you think {pavmo'e} is better than {pavmazla}? You gave absolutely no reasons.
Just because of the similraty, both days and months would end with
CV'V and that I would find easier to remember.
btw, I was not arguing about the need of a rafsi. I'm convinced we
need them and I would actually be glad to have both maz a mo'e for
mazla.
Now that I think about it. Is there a process to set up an
experimental gismu in jbovlaste? (I mean in terms of
consensus/approvals, of course)
Lindar
detri
x1 is the date [day,week,month,year] of event/state x2, at location
x3, by calendar x4.
We ALREADY HAVE that word.
It's already there. It's in existence. We don't need more words that
mean the same thing.
.i li pa lo'o detri (lo cabdei)
"Today is the first."
.i li pa pi'e ci pi'e re pi'e re no pa no lo'o detri lo cabdei mi lo
*gregorian*
Today is the first day of the third week (the 15th?) of the second
month (February?) of the year 2010 (in base dau) at my location in the
gregorian calendar.
I'm sorry to be RAEG IN THRADD!! but you guys have kinda steam-rolled
over me every time I've brought this up. You -don't- need two whole
new gismu for this when we have -one- perfectly good word that does
the job exactly how you want. If you want to discuss what exactly is
permitted in the x1 of detri (should it be "day | month | year" or
"day of week | week | month | quarter | year | additional division |
another big measurement | bollocks" or ... whatever!), then that's
totally cool, but this discussion of new gismu really doesn't need to
go any further. Trust me, there have been PLENTY of gismu suggested.
Unless you can write your entire proposal and definition in Lojban,
you're not taking up any gismu space. Feel free to petition the byfy,
but I'm vetoing.
On a lighter note, if we can move back to the topic at hand using
detri, I would love to discuss what everybody thinks is appropriate
for a calendar.
I am for weeks starting on the first business day and ending on two
non-business days with seven days each week and four weeks each month,
thirteen months to a year with a non-day at the end of the year for
the celebration of the year's end and a leap-day after June. I also
believe the year should start in spring.
I'm also for making dozenal the standard, though.
This really doesn't change the fact that most of us live by a
Gregorian calendar and use decimal on a daily basis.
If you, your people, and your country actually live and work by a
different calendar (and/or number base), I would love to know about it
so we can take into account what you're used to and blend it into what
we're doing as well as create a way to express your calendar in Lojban.
Pierre Abbat
> Now that I think about it. Is there a process to set up an
> experimental gismu in jbovlaste? (I mean in terms of
> consensus/approvals, of course)
You can enter an experimental gismu in jbovlaste, but AFAIK can't assign it a
rafsi ("benzo" should have "bez", as in "bezysince" the six-spotted hoop
snake, but I couldn't enter it). There are 25 already entered. Voting works
the same way as for any other word.
Pierre
--
li ze te'a ci vu'u ci bi'e te'a mu du
li ci su'i ze te'a mu bi'e vu'u ci
Jorge Llambías
>
> detri
>
> x1 is the date [day,week,month,year] of event/state x2, at location
> x3, by calendar x4.
>
>
> "Today is the first."
Yes, the first of the month.
> .i li pa pi'e ci pi'e re pi'e re no pa no lo'o detri lo cabdei mi lo
> *gregorian*
>
> Today is the first day of the third week (the 15th?) of the second
> month (February?) of the year 2010 (in base dau) at my location in the
> gregorian calendar.
I don't think that's how "week" was intended in detri. I think it was
meant as week of the year, not week of the month. In fact week number
(be it of the month or of the year) is not well defined because of the
ambiguity in when the week starts. If it's Monday the second of
January, is that the first week or the second week of the month/year?
> You -don't- need two whole
> new gismu for this when we have -one- perfectly good word that does
> the job exactly how you want.
But "detri" doesn't do the job we want. Do you really expect
"relseldetri" to be understood as "Tueday"? Try saying "we meet every
Tuesday" using "detri".
> If you want to discuss what exactly is
> permitted in the x1 of detri (should it be "day | month | year" or
> "day of week | week | month | quarter | year | additional division |
> another big measurement | bollocks" or ... whatever!), then that's
> totally cool,
Last time this was discussed, the most support seemed to be for the
year;month;day order, but this is one of those recurring topics, so
who knows what will happen this time.
Luke Bergen
> "relseldetri" to be understood as "Tueday"? Try saying "we meet every
> Tuesday" using "detri".
Jorge Llambías
> I found 45 unclaimed {dXX} rafsi, although possibly only 35, assuming {diV}
> and {duV} aren't permissible.
>
> Considering the desire for {XXV}, I'm proposing {donla} {do'a} for the
> aforementioned broda, which references {donri} and {la}.
The relationship between "donri"/"la" and the wanted meaning a bit
farfetched, I would almost prefer it if you said it was a randomly
generated form. Perhaps it's not as bad as the etymology of "bemro",
but still.
If we were to express the wanted meaning in terms of existing words,
it might be something like this:
ko'a me ko'e (to noi namcu toi) moi lo djedi pe lo me ko'i (to noi
namcu toi) moi be lo jeftu pe ko'o noi nanca ku'o fi'o ve detri ko'u
The key words are "jeftu-djedi-moi". Indeed "jefydeimoi" might be a
reasonable lujvo for this. The only problem with it is that it's an
awful mouthful to create names like "pavyjefydeimoi", "reljefydeimoi",
.... Or would it have to be "jefydeipavmoi", "jefydeirelmoi", ...?
Anyway, if the idea is to create a lujvo/cmavo/bemro/dzipo type of
gismu (i.e. one based on a Lojban etymology) then I suggest basing it
on something more sensible than on "donri" and "la".
(The best available rafsi for it seems to be "zoi", because all the
week-day names would be two syllables. It has the -oi of moi, but I
don't know where the "z" could be from.)
Oleksii Melnyk
about the pros and cons of the two current methods of naming the days of the week - one based on numbers, the other on concepts. {pavdei}
IMO "day of week" is not a kind of "-dei/djedi", but a kind of "detri". "... at DayOfWeek ..." is "... de'i SOMETHING ...". Do we really have a "logical" use case for "Monday" itself, without any event to attach "de'i X" to?
Moreover, "detri" implies the cultural bias(at x4), so, we can use any "foreign" day of week names. And consider "de'i li PA" to be the most neutral way of weekday naming.
And so for the month names. "January" is something near "de'i li pi'epa" (or pi'epi'epa, depends on x4 of detri)
mu'o mi'e lex
Lindar
> at DayOfWeek ..." is "... de'i SOMETHING ...". Do we really have a "logical"
> use case for "Monday" itself, without any event to attach "de'i X" to?
> Moreover, "detri" implies the cultural bias(at x4), so, we can use any
> "foreign" day of week names. And consider "de'i li PA" to be the most
> neutral way of weekday naming.
> And so for the month names. "January" is something near "de'i li pi'epa" (or
> pi'epi'epa, depends on x4 of detri)
I honestly think the x1 should change depending on the calendar.
If we're using a fixed calendar, it should be day, week, month, year.
(first day of second week of first month = 8th of Jan.) If we're using
the calendar I'm used to, probably should be either (day of week | day
of month | month of year | year) or (day of month | month | year) as
that would be "Monday the 15th of January, 2010" and "The 15th of
January, 2010" respectively.
We could also have archival dating, wherein it starts (year | month |
day) and mark that with the x4.
Oleksii Melnyk
the calendar I'm used to, probably should be either (day of week | day
of month | month of year | year) or (day of month | month | year)
I think, here we have 2 separate calendars: (day of month | month | year) and (day of week)(week, mostly used in offset format(next|last)). Year of week is rare (however I've seen it used once). And we are mixing them sometimes (last Xday of the Month,day of week | day
of month | month of year | year).
I don't like "just make the new word" way. But trahslating all our calendaring habits into lojban gives either too long, or too ambiguous dates.
Pierre Abbat
> 2010/10/7 Lindar <lindar...@yahoo.com>
>
> > the calendar I'm used to, probably should be either (day of week | day
> > of month | month of year | year) or (day of month | month | year)
>
> I think, here we have 2 separate calendars: (day of month | month | year)
> and (day of week)(week, mostly used in offset format(next|last)). Year of
> week is rare (however I've seen it used once). And we are mixing them
> sometimes (last Xday of the Month,day of week | day
> of month | month of year | year).
If the date is expressed as day, month, and year, the order should be year,
month, day. If, however, it's (day of 13-day period | day of 20-day period),
I think the order is arbitrary; neither is more significant than the other.
Jonathan Jones
Okay, how about zonri, then, to make something up off the top of my head?
Jorge Llambías
> 2010/10/7 Jorge Llambías <jjlla...@gmail.com>
>>
>> (The best available rafsi for it seems to be "zoi", because all the
>> week-day names would be two syllables. It has the -oi of moi, but I
>> don't know where the "z" could be from.)
Except for "mumyzoi". Pierre's recent post reminded me about the silly
"mz" rule.
There'e also "goi" that wouldn't have that problem, but I had thought
of it for the months.
> Okay, how about zonri, then, to make something up off the top of my head?
I have no opinion for the moment.
Remo Dentato
> "donla do'a x1 is the x2th day of week number x3 of year x4, under calendar/system x5"
> {pavdo'a} = "Monday", etc.
>
> "mazla maz x1 is the x2th month of year x3, under calendar/system x4"
> {pavmazla} = "January", etc.
>
> "mazdo'a d1=x1 is the d2=x2th day of month number m1=x3 of year d4=m4=x3, under calendar/system d5=m5=x5"
>
Jonathan Jones
Remo Dentato
> What would the gismu be that has "mo'e} as it's rafsi, instead of {mazla},
> which obviously can't have that rafsi, since it has neither "o" nor "e"?
Sorry I didn't get that far in thinking about this...
Amber Shadow
and then each month into either 24, 28, or 36 days and then split each
of those into six day weeks. Since lojbanists seem to like base 12 a
lot :)
On Oct 6, 9:32 am, ".alyn.post." <alyn.p...@lodockikumazvati.org>
wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 06, 2010 at 04:24:20PM +0200, Remo Dentato wrote:
> > BTW we are talking about the Gregorian Calendar, right?
>
> > I always thought that Lojbanistan was using International Fixed
> > Calendar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Fixed_Calendar)
> > for cultural neutrality!
>
> > :)
> I was hoping I wasn't going to be the first person to question why
> weeks had to have 7 days, or why the Gregorian Calendar was assumed
> to be universal.
>
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calendar_reform
>
> The one that got the most traction was eventually blocked on
> religious objections, namely that it didn't have repeating 7-day
> cycles:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Calendar
>
> I've personally wanted to see a marriage of lunar and solar
> calendars along a 19-year cycle:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metonic_cycle
>
> Having said all of this, my own attempts to follow a non-gregorian
> calendar, with or without Lojban, has been a struggle in
> reconciling any new calendar system with the world's use of the
> gregorian calendar.
David Gowers (kampu)
> It would be cool to split up the year into twelve months (as it is)
> and then each month into either 24, 28, or 36 days and then split each
> of those into six day weeks. Since lojbanists seem to like base 12 a
> lot :)
16, and Hugglesworth seems to think both 8 and 16 are useful.. , but I
haven't met anyone not Lindar who clearly favors base 12 (I understand
one reason for this is because it has a lot of divisors -- 2,3,4,6 vs
base 16's 2,4,8 or base 8's 2,4 ).
What base do you favor?
Jonathan Jones
Jonathan Jones
Lindar
Also because:
1/2 = .6
1/3 = .4
1/4 = .3
1/6 = .2
Which means that, in addition to 2,3,4 and 6 being divisors, 8 and 9
produce non-repeating decimals (2/3 or .8 and 3/4 or .9 respectively).
Also, how many eggs/doughnuts/plastic utensils/paper plates do you
tend to get? Is it a multiple of 10, or a multiple of 12? =D
RE: D'ni
It's actually called "ternary". "Trinary" isn't a real word. Don't mix
latin and greek.
(like 'television' or 'telephone' for example)
RE: People still trying to come up with a new gismu.
=D Stop, please. We already have a word for what you're trying to
make.
pavde'i
relde'i
etc.
There are your easy lujvo. If you want to be creative, help selkik
come up with culture weekdays. So far we've got banana day, but we're
not sure what day that is.
.alyn.post.
> RE: dozenal
>
I read that as two dozen. :-p
> It's actually called "ternary". "Trinary" isn't a real word. Don't mix
> latin and greek.
> (like 'television' or 'telephone' for example)
>
Or autokiniton and ipsomobile, for another example.
Jonathan Jones
RE: People still trying to come up with a new gismu.
=D Stop, please. We already have a word for what you're trying to
make.
pavde'i
relde'i
etc.
There are your easy lujvo.
jbofi'e says:
[1«2pavde'i 1??-tooth/teeth??»2]1.i `.' [3«4relde'i 2??-tooth/teeth??»4]3
I am definitely not naming the day of the week various quantities of teeth.
Jorge Llambías
> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 5:22 PM, Lindar <lindar...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> pavde'i
>> relde'i
>> etc.
>
Those could actually work as names for central incisor, lateral
incisor, canine, first molar, second molar, ... I don't know if there
is a standard ordering for those, probably there is.
In this case there is no interference from the place structure of
"denci" that would suggest a quantity value for the numbers, rather
than just a label.
Jonathan Jones
Here I was trying to make fun of Lindar for using the wrong rafsi, and you go and say that. Poo on you. zo'o
Pierre Abbat
> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 8:47 PM, Jonathan Jones <eye...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 5:22 PM, Lindar <lindar...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> pavde'i
> >> relde'i
> >> etc.
> >
> > I am definitely not naming the day of the week various quantities of
> > teeth.
>
> Those could actually work as names for central incisor, lateral
> incisor, canine, first molar, second molar, ... I don't know if there
> is a standard ordering for those, probably there is.
Most mammals have different kinds of teeth, up to four kinds: incisor
(ka'arde'i), canine (gerde'i), premolar (crazalde'i), and molar (zalde'i).
There are numbering systems for human teeth, which can be used for all
fi'orjoizdo smani but no others (to lo fi'uvosi'e be lo bemjoitco smani cu se
crazalde'i ba'e ci da toi), and a numbering system for all heterodont
mammals. In the system for all heterodont mammals, premolars are numbered
ending at 4, rather than starting at 1. I suspect the reason has to do with
homology of teeth.
Pierre
--
The Black Garden on the Mountain is not on the Black Mountain.
Lindar
hate about rafsi and how they should be fixed. Frankly, whomever
decided on the rafsi for the 'great rafsi shift' was retarded as all
hell. vlagi and tujli have rafsi, denci has an ending-rafsi that is
the tcita for detri, which has a starting rafsi, and nixli has two
short rafsi while nanla has none. Serious problems, I tells ya.
Anyway... uhhh... 'pavdetri' then.
Jacob Errington
I don't understand why we have CV'V rafsi. They don't reduce the number of syllables.
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Pierre Abbat
> Ok, everyone. I just recently started reconnecting with the lojban
> community, though I was an active member in the 1990's. During one Logfest
> meeting (I can't specify the year) the topic of how to specify weekdays was
> discussed extensively. What we determined was that different groups could
> use different day names and we came up with several options. We figured
> that any confusion could be clarified as needed. In the end we decided on
> two or three cycles to use, but left this open for eventually adding others
> as well. One cycle used the continents in order as you proceed around the
> earth following the Sun. I apologize for not remembering which was
> connected to which day. The one I preferred was based on the color wheel --
> Wednesday was color-day followed in order by red, orange, yellow, green,
> blue, and purple days. Wednesday was chosen for the off day because we
> couldn't think of any group that used that day as a religious one.
Besides the number system, I know of two:
soldei ce'o lurdei ce'o fagdei ce'o jaudje ce'o mudydei ce'o jimdei ce'o
derdei .i
xundei ce'o najdei ce'o peldei ce'o ri'odje ce'o cicnydei bladei ce'o zirdei
In both, Wednesday gets a word ending in "-dje" as the best-scoring lujvo.
As to the teeth: ka'arde'i ce'o gerde'i ce'o crazalde'i ce'o zalde'i.
mu'omi'e .pier.
--
li fi'u vu'u fi'u fi'u du li pa
karis.
Continents, in order as the sun travels and I think Wednesday was Africa
Colors, ie.six divisions color wheel following the rainbow starting with Thursday and ending on Tuesday. Wednesday is color day.
In both systems Wednesday was picked as the cusp day between weeks because none of us could think of a religion our group that made it central.
The goal of the discussion was how to specify days of the week as close to culturally neutral as possible. In the end we decided these systems and others were welcome as long as users of less common ones were willing to explain.
karis
Pierre Abbat
*nondei, pavdei, reldei, cibdei, vondei, mumdei, xavdei, zeldei. The 0th and
7th are synonyms. The problem with this is that people who number the days of
the week don't all agree on which day gets which number, and in some languages
(Slavic and Hungarian, which borrowed some days from Slavic), the week starts
on Monday but Wednesday is the middle.
*soldei, lurdei, fagdei, jaudje, mudydei, jimdei, derdei. These are based on
Japanese and Korean; the Chinese are sure to be familiar with them, as the
Japanese days are written in kanji. The first two are also obvious to speakers
of many Germanic and Romance languages. As far as I know, all
peoples/languages that assign heavenly bodies, gods, or elements to days agree
on which day is the day of the Moon.
*xundei, najdei, peldei, ri'odje, cicnydei, bladei, zirdei. As far as I know,
no one but Lojbanists names days of the week for colors.
In both the soldei system and the xundei system, one can make up nonexistent
weekdays, such as vardei (air is a Greek but not Chinese element), rusydei,
nukydei, or labdei. Also in both systems, Wednesday begins with a CVV rafsi.
I recommend using the soldei system if you want something familiar to a large
fraction of the world population, or the xundei system if you want something
equally unfamiliar to all. I do not recommend using the nondei system, because
it is likely that someone will misinterpret it.
As to months, the Gregorian calendar, which is the one in widest use, is the
fourth version of the Roman calendar. The current names of the months are:
janvari, febvari, martime, prilime, magjome, junxame, julzeme, .avgusto,
septebe, .oktobe, novmebe, dekmere. There were some former names like "madjio"
which were invalidated by a phonotactic ruling of the BPFK. The same month
names are used in the Julian calendar; the Pompilian and Romulan calendars,
and the Julian before Augustus, used some now-obsolete month names. If you
want to use an unrelated calendar with different month names, make up Lojban
words for them.
Pierre
--
I believe in Yellow when I'm in Sweden and in Black when I'm in Wales.