Wedding ring engraving

[Paul Predkiewicz]

Hello folks,
we are seriously considering to have our wedding rings engraved in lojban.
First we thought about just our pet names, which would be cipnis. for
her and mlat. for me.
But now, we could put there a sentence like "la cipnis. ze'e prami la
mlat." if i'm not totaly off, this sentence means simply, "someone
called bird, considering all time there is/was/will be loves someone
called cat" or "bird loves cat forever"
Now my question is: is it possible to make it mean something like "i,
bird, considering all time there is/was/will be loves someone called
cat"?
I imagine it to be something like "mi'e cipnis. ze'e prami la mlat."
or am i wrong?

[Lindar]

You're actually perfectly allowed to use {cipni} and {mlatu} as names, but you have to terminate them.

{la cipni ku ze'e prami la mlatu}

{la mlatu ku ze'e prami la cipni}

Perfectly valid Lojban.

[Paul Predkiewicz]

Oh i see. I wasn't aware of that.

Well, the reaccuring la remains though, which i somehow find slightly
unaesthetic, so what about my idea of using {mi'e}?
Another reason why i ask if {mi'e} can be used is that {la cipni ku
prami la mlatu} sounds like a very generic statement. Like "The monkey
eats a banana." instead of {mi'e cipni ku prami la mlatu} which kind
of adds the info that cipni is the one saying this and for me it
sounds more like a confession.

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[.arpis.]

How about {mi'e .cipnis. doi .mlat. mi ze'e prami do}?

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mu'o mi'e .arpis.

[Michael Turniansky]

  The short answer is "no".  "mi'e" assigns what "mi" refers to, but it doesn't itself fill a spot in the sentence.  So what you proposed means "I am Bird, Cat is loved".  What you CAN do is something like "mi no'u la cipni cu prami la mlatu" (or equivalently "la cipni no'u mi prami la mlatu" (you can also use "goi" instead of no'u in these two sentences, as well))

                --gejyspa

[Paul Predkiewicz]

Thanks alot, now i just hope it fits in the ring :D

[Lindar]

I quite like that.

mi no'u la cipni cu prami la mlatu

mi no'u la mlatu cu prami la cipni

"I, Bird, love Cat."
"I, Cat, love Bird."

They are quite explicitly names in both my version and this one, but this one sounds much more poetic and wedding-y.

[Timo Paulssen]

On Mon, 9 Jul 2012 08:37:50 -0400
Michael Turniansky <mturn...@gmail.com> wrote:

> The short answer is "no". "mi'e" assigns what "mi" refers to, but
> it doesn't itself fill a spot in the sentence. So what you proposed
> means "I am Bird, Cat is loved". What you CAN do is something like
> "mi no'u la cipni cu prami la mlatu" (or equivalently "la cipni no'u
> mi prami la mlatu" (you can also use "goi" instead of no'u in these
> two sentences, as well)) --gejyspa

How about this, instead?

{ mi'e la cipnis noi ze'e prami la mlat }

I'm Bird, who eternally loves Cat.

[Michael Turniansky]

  Ooh... That works nicely, too.   Let's see what Paul thinks.

  --gejyspa

[Paul Predkiewicz]

.u'ioiro'a Well, we decided onto one of the three following:
{mi no'u la cipni cu ze'e prami la mlatu}
{la cipni cu ze'e prami la mlatu}
{mi ze'e prami la mlatu}
one of those plus the date we will marry..
it really depends wether or not it fits into the ring.
worst case might be to settle for cipni & mlatu or maybe cipni su'i mlatu...

a'o we'll see ^^

[Robin Lee Powell]

+1

Another option, that more closely matches the English, is {mi no'u
la .cipnis. ze'e prami do no'u la .mlat.}; something like "I, Bird,
always love you, Cat".

-Robin

http://singinst.org/ : Our last, best hope for a fantastic future.
.i ko na cpedu lo nu stidi vau loi jbopre .i danfu lu na go'i li'u .e
lu go'i li'u .i ji'a go'i lu na'e go'i li'u .e lu go'i na'i li'u .e
lu no'e go'i li'u .e lu to'e go'i li'u .e lu lo mamta be do cu sofybakni li'u

[ianek]

di'aisai re do

mu'o mi'e ianek

[MorphemeAddict]

On Mon, Jul 9, 2012 at 7:47 AM, Paul Predkiewicz <paul.pre...@gmail.com> wrote:

Oh i see. I wasn't aware of that.

Well, the reaccuring la remains though, which i somehow find slightly
unaesthetic, so what about my idea of using {mi'e}?
Another reason why i ask if {mi'e} can be used is that {la cipni ku
prami la mlatu} sounds like a very generic statement. Like "The monkey
eats a banana."

Using «la» equates to the capitalization of a name, not to anything like "the". So «la cipni ku/cu prami la mlatu» means "Bird loves Cat" (but without the tense of English "loves"). Either of «ku» or «cu» can be used in this case. They differ grammatically, but the result is essentially the same here. It's not especially generic at all, although each argument can refer to any entity actually called that. 

stevo

[Jacob Errington]

.i iu mi no'u la cipni ze'e prami do nu'e la mlatu

melrai :P

mu'o mi'e la tsani

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[Paul Predkiewicz]

> It's not especially generic at all, although each argument can refer
> to any entity actually called that.

Yeah, that is what i meant. I know {la} doesn't mean "the", but more
like "next-up: a name"
I was just trying to say that as it is the statement {la cipni cu
prami la mlatu} leaves alot of questions open...
On the other hand it seems i tend to forget the following, a wedding
ring engraved with
{la cipni cu ze'e prami la mlatu}
and another engraved with
{la mlatu cu ze'e prami la cipni}
pretty much adds a whole lot of context. so i guess even if only this
sentence fits inside the rings, it would still be selfdesprict, since
if you knew what a wedding ring is you could easily assume that the
wearer is the person who loves the loved one.

But when written down on the internet, it doesn't sound like much.

Oh and, if you use gismu as a name, to form a valid sentence, do you
need to put a full stop there {la cipni. cu prami}? Or is {la cipni cu
prami} fine too? Or is it even {la .cipni. cu prami}?

[Paul Predkiewicz]

On Tue, Jul 10, 2012 at 3:36 AM, Jacob Errington <nict...@gmail.com> wrote:
> .i iu mi no'u la cipni ze'e prami do nu'e la mlatu
>
> melrai :P
>
> mu'o mi'e la tsani

That is indeed very cute :3
i like the nu'e, but wouldnt la mlatu slip into the x3 of prami? Of
course if it had an x3, which it doesn't..

[Jonathan Jones]

I can never accurately remember which are called cmene and which are called cmevla, but let's assume eg. {la mlatu} are the ones called cmevla. If I'm wrong, someone will correct me.

Only cmene need to be surrounded by pauses. It is never wrong to put a pause where one is not needed, but cmevla have no need of them at all, however, that is why they need to be followed by ku/cu in some situations, whereas cmene never do.

--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

[Paul Predkiewicz]

I see, the {cu}/{ku} of course is to prevent the lover i call bird to
become something i call a loverbird. Though, would pauses around a
cmevla make the {ku}/{cu} unneccessary? Or is {la .cipni. prami} still
something i call a loverbird?

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[Lindar]

Or is {la .cipni. prami} still
something i call a loverbird?

Always, without exception.

Two selbri next to each other make a tanru, so you have to terminate {la} if the name is a selbri. 

[Paul Predkiewicz]

Ok, XD uhm
does {la .cipni. prami} differ from {la cipni prami} in meaning?

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[Jonathan Jones]

On Tue, Jul 10, 2012 at 2:56 AM, Paul Predkiewicz <paul.pre...@gmail.com> wrote:

Ok, XD uhm
does {la .cipni. prami} differ from {la cipni prami} in meaning?

No. The "." have absolutely no effect on meaning, ever. This is true of any occurrence, not merely regarding {la}. There are places where they are required for grammatical reasons, and they are allowed at pretty much any point and as often as desired, but they only affect the grammar of an utterance, not the meaning.
 

[Jonathan Jones]

On Tue, Jul 10, 2012 at 1:58 AM, Paul Predkiewicz <paul.pre...@gmail.com> wrote:

I see, the {cu}/{ku} of course is to prevent the lover i call bird to
become something i call a loverbird. Though, would pauses around a
cmevla make the {ku}/{cu} unneccessary? Or is {la .cipni. prami} still
something i call a loverbird?

It would still be "something named a-bird-type-of-lover". The ku or cu is needed to separate the sumti from the selbri. Without it, the two gismu combine to form a tanru which is then swallowed whole y la.
 

[Michael Turniansky]

  No.  Most people forget that "ne'u" is a COI, so it grabs the "la mlatu"

                 --gejyspa 

[Paul Predkiewicz]

Ok i just read a bit about all the selma'o, didn't really know about
it much. i never really got into exploring cmavo, instead tried to
learn a bunch of gismu first.
My problem here was, and kinda still is, that i thought {nu'e} would
only touch the following {la mlatu} and not the preceding {do}.
But i guess {do}'s definition "identified by vocative" means exactly this...

cmavo are pretty much virgin soil for me..

[.arpis.]

I'm correcting you; {cmene} refer to names, e.g. {zo .arpis. cmene mi .i ji'a zo cipni cmene la'oi Paul}. They refer to the use/meaning of a word; they are also, more or less, language angostic. {cmevla} refers to a morphological construct, and is primarily useful in lojban; they must end in a consonant (and if you aren't on the dot side, can't contain "la", "lai", or "doi" at the start of a syllable). They must always be followed by a pause, and, like all lojban words, if they start with a vowel, they must be preceded by a pause.

Elaborating on the rest of the discussion:
Under current convention (dot side), whenever a cmevla is used in a cmene, (e.g. {la .mlat.}) it must be surrounded by pauses in speech, which some people take pains to indicate with the dot character. Pauses in names have no meaning (besides word separation) when brivla are used in them.

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mu'o mi'e .arpis.

[Michael Turniansky]

No, no, it DOES only "touch" the "la mlatu"

.i iu mi no'u la cipni ze'e prami do nu'e la mlatu ->

[love] I, who is Bird, forever loves you, I promise Cat
 iu     <love>

mi      I (x1 of prami)

     no'u la cipni [ge'u]       who is Bird

[cu] ze'e    forever

prami    loving

do    you (x2 of prami)

    nu'e   I-promise

    la mlatu   Cat (x2 of nu'e)

  The nu'e la mlatu together are free-floating, not tied to anything, much like .iu

                  --gejyspa

[Paul Predkiewicz]

hm i guess i messed up what i meant, i meant {nu'e} grabs {la mlatu}
and {do} grabs {nu'e}

On Tue, Jul 10, 2012 at 3:15 PM, Michael Turniansky

[Paul Predkiewicz]

Yay, my sister just wrote that she will try if {la cipni cu ze'e prami
la mlatu} and {la cipni cu ze'e prami la mlatu} fit into the rings.
The longer version wouldn't fit for sure.
But considering it to be engraved into wedding rings, i'm pretty happy
with these sentences now

[selpa'i]

You know, seeing how cute this thing is, and the T-shirt that the girl
made for her dad, there is a certain charm to the Lojbanic world that I
don't want to disappear. I guess it's just a normal part of
minorities... Will we lose this when Lojban gets much bigger? Will Coca
Cola start sponsoring additional rafsi? Today's bridi-tail was brought
to you by Kentucky Fried Chicken?

mu'o mi'e la selpa'i

--
.i pau mi me ma .i pa mai ko mi jungau la'e di'u
.i ba bo mi va'o lo nu nelci lo nu me ma kau cu barkla
.i va'o lo nu na nelci cu denpa ti lo nu mi drata

[Michael Turniansky]

  Ah... so are you asking if "nu'e la mlatu" refers, in some sense, to "do" in the same way that a member of UI refers to the preceding word?  That's an interesting question, which is probably open.  My personal opinion is "no".  The COI+sumti is, as far as I'm concerned, is more-or-less completely outside the realm of the sentence, in much the same was a sei-construct is, and therefore where it appears is almost inconsequential, except that it affects what all subsequent "do" or "ko" refer to.

      --gejyspa

[Jonathan Jones]

Ah well, I had it backwards.

[Jacob Errington]

Please... These sentences are cute, but you should really take out the
{cu}. It's unnecessary, as the {ze'e} elides it.
By the way, (not sure if you're aware of this) {ze'e} has the
additional implication of stretching over *all* of time. As in, *a
LOT* of time. So much time, even, that it includes time before you
were born, before your parents were born, and even before the earth
had formed. {ze'e} is pretty much like from the beginning of time,
until the end of time. Now, that's *really* cute because it implies
you were in love before even having met each other in this life,
implying that you be soulmates. Now, seeing as you're saving space by
taking of {cu} how about tacking a {iu} onto the name of the beloved?
{iu} and {ui} are such pretty words in my opinion.

mu'o mi'e la tsani

[Paul Predkiewicz]

Yeah, well i did read {ze'e}'s definition, and to me the other time
intervall cmavo appeared boring, "for all time there was, is and will
ever be" sounds pretty nice to me...

Are you certain about leaving cu out? Cuz if i was to build a tanru of
a [alltime] lover of-the-type bird, wouldn't it be something like
{cipni ze'e prami}?

[Lindar]

Are you certain about leaving cu out? Cuz if i was to build a tanru of
a [alltime] lover of-the-type bird, wouldn't it be something like
{cipni ze'e prami}?

cmavo can't form tanru. It's identical in meaning if you remove {cu} and I think it is more aesthetically pleasing that way. 

[selpa'i]

Slight correction: TAGs(sumtcita; e.g. tenses and BAI) cannot form tanru. There are many cmavo that can, however. ke, ke'e, bo and all of NAhE being the most common, not to mention attitudinals.
ze'e is a tense though, and can not form a tanru. The {cu} can be elided.

mu'o mi'e la selpa'i