Lojbanifying the Tranquility Calendar

DataPacRat

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Aug 26, 2011, 1:14:43 AM8/26/11

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I'm working with a fictional character, who is described as preferring
the Lojban language, and a minor variant of the Tranquility calendar,
which is mainly described at
http://www.mithrandir.com/tranquility/tranquility.html (and in which
today is Saturnday, Brahe 9, 43 AT). I'd like to transform the various
names of that calendar into their Lojbannic equivalents, but I don't
really trust my skill at applying the methods described in the
reference text, and thus I'm asking for your assistance:

Year names:
* BT, Before Tranquility
* AT, After Tranquility

Individual days:
* Moon Landing Day
* Armstrong Day
* Aldrin Day

Days of the week:
* Venusday
* Saturnday
* Solday
* Lunaday
* Marsday
* Mercuryday
* Jupiterday

Months:
* Archimedes
* Brahe
* Copernicus
* Darwin
* Einstein
* Faraday
* Galileo
* Hippocrates
* Imhotep
* Jung
* Kepler
* Lavoisier
* Mendel

Thank you for your time,
--
DataPacRat
lu .iacu'i ma krinu lo du'u .ei mi krici la'e di'u li'u traji lo ka
vajni fo lo preti

cybrown

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Aug 26, 2011, 9:02:19 AM8/26/11

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I can't help you with the Lojban but wanted to thank you for teaching
me something new today. I love the Tranquility calendar. What's up
with the days of the week you mentioned though? The article you linked
just calls them by their normal names (Friday, Saturday, Sunday, etc.)
Did you make up these names?

On Aug 26, 1:14 am, DataPacRat <datapac...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm working with a fictional character, who is described as preferring
> the Lojban language, and a minor variant of the Tranquility calendar,

> which is mainly described athttp://www.mithrandir.com/tranquility/tranquility.html(and in which

DataPacRat

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Aug 26, 2011, 10:44:11 AM8/26/11

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On Friday, 26 August 2011 09:02:19 UTC-4, cybrown wrote:

I can't help you with the Lojban but wanted to thank you for teaching
me something new today. I love the Tranquility calendar. What's up
with the days of the week you mentioned though? The article you linked
just calls them by their normal names (Friday, Saturday, Sunday, etc.)
Did you make up these names?

Kind of, but not quite. :)

In most Romance languages, the days of the week are named after the seven classic heavenly bodies - the Sun, the Moon, and the five planets visible to the naked eye. When those names were exported to the Germanic cultures, some of them were fiddled with to be named after the Germanic gods that were thought to be parallel to the Roman/Greek god of that planet - warlike Tyr for Mars, communicator Odin/Wotan for Mercury, thundering Thor for Jupiter, beautiful Frigga for Venus. Since the whole point of the Tranquility Calendar is to name things after thinkers and explorers, instead of the existing calendar that was an agglutination of whatever came up, it simply seemed odd to me to retain the existing days of the week - so I simply stripped away the extra layers that had been added to weekday-names, and got back to the original astronomical references, which seemed satisfyingly sciency.

Jonathan Jones

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Aug 26, 2011, 12:56:38 PM8/26/11

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Here's my effort:

On Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 11:14 PM, DataPacRat <datap...@gmail.com> wrote:

Year names:
* BT, Before Tranquility

pu zazytolxanka (pu + za'i + tolxanka)

* AT, After Tranquility

ba zazytolxanka (ba + za'i + tolxanka)

Individual days:
* Moon Landing Day

lurstagaudei (lunra + stagau + djedi)

* Armstrong Day
* Aldrin Day

Days of the week:

All of these have the meaning "x₁ is a ___day of week x₂ in calendar x₃."

* Venusday

Using the Lojban name of the planet: relplinydei (relpin + djedi)
Using the Lojban name for the God: mleceidei (melbi + cevni + djedi)

* Saturnday

Planet: xavyplinydei (xavyplin + djedi)
God: repceidei (crepu + cevni + djedi)

* Solday

soldei (solri +djedi )

* Lunaday

lurdei (lunra + djedi)

* Marsday

Planet: vonplinydei (vonplin + djedi)
God: jamceidei (jamna + cevni + djedi)

* Mercuryday

Planet: pavyplinydei (pavyplin + djedi)
God: cajyceidei (canja + cevni + djedi)

* Jupiterday

Planet: mumplinydei (mumplin + djedi)
God: ceirtrudei (cevni + turni + djedi) (ruler of gods); tanceidei (tsani + cevni + djedi) (god of the sky); lidyceidei (lindi + cevni + djedi) (god of thunder);

Months:
* Archimedes
* Brahe
* Copernicus
* Darwin
* Einstein
* Faraday
* Galileo
* Hippocrates
* Imhotep
* Jung
* Kepler
* Lavoisier
* Mendel

Thank you for your time,
--
DataPacRat
lu .iacu'i ma krinu lo du'u .ei mi krici la'e di'u li'u traji lo ka
vajni fo lo preti

As for the rest, because they are names, the best I can do is <lojbanized name> djedi as in {lo la.armstrong. djedi}.

--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

Jonathan Jones

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Aug 26, 2011, 1:05:17 PM8/26/11

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Of course, you could always just use the Lojban names for the days of the week, which are <number>dei: nondei, pavdei, reldei, cibdei, vondei, mumdei, xavdei, zeldei.

(nondei and zeldei are both Sunday, the reason for having two is because some cultures have Sunday as the beginning of the week and some have it as the end.)

.alyn.post.

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Aug 26, 2011, 1:08:23 PM8/26/11

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Wait, aren't the days of the way nonmoidei, pavmoidei, &c?

;-)

-Alan

On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 11:05:17AM -0600, Jonathan Jones wrote:
> Of course, you could always just use the Lojban names for the days of the

> week, which are <number>dei: [1]nondei, [2]pavdei, [3]reldei, [4]cibdei,
> [5]vondei, [6]mumdei, [7]xavdei, [8]zeldei.

>
> (nondei and zeldei are both Sunday, the reason for having two is because
> some cultures have Sunday as the beginning of the week and some have it as
> the end.)
>

> On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 10:56 AM, Jonathan Jones <[9]eye...@gmail.com>

> wrote:
>
> Here's my effort:
>

> On Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 11:14 PM, DataPacRat <[10]datap...@gmail.com>

> wrote:
>
> Year names:
> * BT, Before Tranquility
>

> pu zazytolxanka ([11]pu + [12]za'i + [13]tolxanka)
>
> * AT, After Tranquility
>
> ba zazytolxanka ([14]ba + [15]za'i + [16]tolxanka)

>
> Individual days:
> * Moon Landing Day
>

> lurstagaudei ([17]lunra + [18]stagau + [19]djedi)

>
> * Armstrong Day
> * Aldrin Day
>
> Days of the week:
>

> All of these have the meaning "x[1] is a ___day of week x[2] in calendar
> x[3]."
>
> * Venusday
>
> Using the Lojban name of the planet: relplinydei ([20]relpin +
> [21]djedi)
> Using the Lojban name for the God: mleceidei ([22]melbi + [23]cevni +
> [24]djedi)
>
> * Saturnday
>
> Planet: xavyplinydei ([25]xavyplin + [26]djedi)
> God: repceidei ([27]crepu + [28]cevni + [29]djedi)
>
> * Solday
>
> soldei (solri +[30]djedi)
>
> * Lunaday
>
> lurdei (lunra + [31]djedi)
>
> * Marsday
>
> Planet: vonplinydei ([32]vonplin + [33]djedi)
> God: jamceidei ([34]jamna + [35]cevni + [36]djedi)
>
> * Mercuryday
>
> Planet: pavyplinydei ([37]pavyplin + [38]djedi)
> God: cajyceidei ([39]canja + [40]cevni + [41]djedi)
>
> * Jupiterday
>
> Planet: mumplinydei ([42]mumplin + [43]djedi)
> God: ceirtrudei ([44]cevni + [45]turni + [46]djedi) (ruler of gods);
> tanceidei ([47]tsani + [48]cevni + [49]djedi) (god of the sky);
> lidyceidei ([50]lindi + [51]cevni + [52]djedi) (god of thunder);

--
.i ma'a lo bradi cu penmi gi'e du

Luke Bergen

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Aug 26, 2011, 1:14:15 PM8/26/11

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oh god, not this debate again. Has the byfy given an official decision on the question of {nondei} and friends vs {soldei} and friends? I can't remember.

Jonathan Jones

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Aug 26, 2011, 1:15:44 PM8/26/11

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If you want. But pavdei etc. are the ones in jbovlaste. I don't believe pavmoidei et al. are listed anywhere. I do remember them being suggested back during the "Names of the months" discussion we had awhile back, but apparently nothing ever came of it.

Jonathan Jones

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Aug 26, 2011, 1:18:15 PM8/26/11

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On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 11:14 AM, Luke Bergen <lukea...@gmail.com> wrote:

oh god, not this debate again. Has the byfy given an official decision on the question of {nondei} and friends vs {soldei} and friends? I can't remember.

I believe the official stance is that both are equally valid. And who's debating?

DataPacRat

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Aug 26, 2011, 2:27:29 PM8/26/11

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On Aug 26, 1:05 pm, Jonathan Jones <eyeo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Of course, you could always just use the Lojban names for the days of the

> week, which are <number>dei: nondei <http://vlasisku.lojban.org/nondei>,
> pavdei <http://vlasisku.lojban.org/pavdei>,
> reldei<http://vlasisku.lojban.org/reldei>,
> cibdei <http://vlasisku.lojban.org/cibdei>,
> vondei<http://vlasisku.lojban.org/vondei>,
> mumdei <http://vlasisku.lojban.org/mumdei>,
> xavdei<http://vlasisku.lojban.org/xavdei>,
> zeldei <http://vlasisku.lojban.org/zeldei>.

>
> (nondei and zeldei are both Sunday, the reason for having two is because
> some cultures have Sunday as the beginning of the week and some have it as
> the end.)

Unfortunately, in the Tranquility Calendar, the week begins with
Friday/Venusday - which means that while the <number>dei system might
be usable, it could cause a certain amount of confusion when comparing
the existing Lojban dictionary definitions.

Jonathan Jones

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Aug 26, 2011, 2:33:25 PM8/26/11

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Only if you don't use mumdei for Friday.

Luke Bergen

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Aug 26, 2011, 2:42:26 PM8/26/11

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http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/browse_thread/thread/d14ba928ec271a15#

http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/browse_thread/thread/d14ba928ec271a15#%5C

http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/browse_thread/thread/8dafe66cc880b780#

^

Maybe "debate" was the wrong word to use. Discussing-at-great-length might have been more appropriate.

Jonathan Jones

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Aug 26, 2011, 2:46:00 PM8/26/11

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I didn't ask who had been in the past debating. I asked who's doing it now? I don't see any debating - or discussing-at-great-length - happening within this topic.

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Luke Bergen

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Aug 26, 2011, 2:51:23 PM8/26/11

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I was anticipating it in the same way that I would anticipate a lot of discussion if someone asked "so how does xorlo work with masses and what exactly _are_ sets in lojban"

Also I misread alyn's comment and thought he was jokingly trying to stir up some good fun trouble

.alyn.post.

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Aug 26, 2011, 2:52:04 PM8/26/11

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.i sei .ai mi puvi zunpre
.i mu'o mi'e .alyn.

On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 12:46:00PM -0600, Jonathan Jones wrote:
> I didn't ask who had been in the past debating. I asked who's doing it
> now? I don't see any debating - or discussing-at-great-length - happening
> within this topic.
>

> On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 12:42 PM, Luke Bergen <[1]lukea...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> [2]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/browse_thread/thread/d14ba928ec271a15#
> [3]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/browse_thread/thread/d14ba928ec271a15#%5C
> [4]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/browse_thread/thread/8dafe66cc880b780#

> ^
> Maybe "debate" was the wrong word to use. Discussing-at-great-length
> might have been more appropriate.
>

> On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 1:18 PM, Jonathan Jones <[5]eye...@gmail.com>

> wrote:
>
> On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 11:14 AM, Luke Bergen
> <[6]lukea...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> oh god, not this debate again. Has the byfy given an official
> decision on the question of {nondei} and friends vs {soldei} and
> friends? I can't remember.
>
> I believe the official stance is that both are equally valid. And
> who's debating?
>
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>
> --
> mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>
> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
>
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> References
>
> Visible links
> 1. mailto:lukea...@gmail.com
> 2. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/browse_thread/thread/d14ba928ec271a15#
> 3. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/browse_thread/thread/d14ba928ec271a15#%5C
> 4. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/browse_thread/thread/8dafe66cc880b780#
> 5. mailto:eye...@gmail.com
> 6. mailto:lukea...@gmail.com
> 7. mailto:lojban-b...@googlegroups.com
> 8. mailto:lojban-beginners%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com
> 9. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en

Jonathan Jones

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Aug 26, 2011, 2:55:24 PM8/26/11

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Ah.

Remo Dentato

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Aug 29, 2011, 3:00:03 PM8/29/11

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I'd be intrested in knowing more about this fictional characters and the effects of him speaking lojban!

On Friday, August 26, 2011, DataPacRat <datap...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Year names:
> * BT, Before Tranquility

> * AT, After Tranquility

The first thing is to decide how render "Tranquility" that is a specific instance of an English word (and not just the translation of {tolxanka}. Anyway, we're lucky that both start with 't' :)

Let's create a fu'ivla for such important word: {trankuiliti} and let's hope someone will do better.

So for the purpose of the years, we can consider events "before Tranquility" to have happened {pu lo trankuiliti} and abbreviate it as {pyty} and events "after Tranquility" to have happened {ba lo trankuiliti} and abbreviate it as {byty}. It's unfortunate that now "bt" means exactly the opposite it did earlier, but so is life.
Now,since lerfu strings can be legally used as numbers, 12BT can be {li parepyty} (12 in past of Tranquility) and 31AT would be {li cipabyty} (31 in the future of Tranquility).

> Individual days:

"Landing" is another word that needs some work. Jonathan suggested {stagai} which is more like anchoring/parking. I see it different from the act of "landing" which (to me) is the end on land of a travel that did not occur on land.

I could not think of anything better than {tumkla} = "x₁=k₁ comes/goes to destination x₂=k₂=t₁ from origin x₃=k₃ via route x₄=k₄ using means/vehicle x₅=k₅".
I know, every lujvo made with {klama} seems trivial and abused, but I couldn't find of a better way to indicate a destination (after all, we don't even have a gismu for "arriving" which is simply the opposite of leaving!).

I'm also convinced that weekdays names should be names and I like forming names with rafsi, so here are my proposals

> * Moon Landing Day   -> {tumkladj}
> * Armstrong Day        -> {armstrongydj}
> * Aldrin Day               -> {aldrinydj}

> Days of the week:
> * Venusday              -> {venusydj}
> * Saturnday              -> {saturydj}
> * Solday                  -> {solydj}
> * Lunaday            -> {lunadj}
> * Marsday              -> {marsydj}
> * Mercuryday           -> {mercurydj}
> * Jupiterday             -> {djupiterydj}
>
> Months:
> * Archimedes          ->

Remo Dentato

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Aug 29, 2011, 3:56:43 PM8/29/11

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I'm really sorry! I hit "Send" too quickly :(

> Individual days:

For these three days you'll need "numbers" too to be used in dates. Again
I would use a lerfu string.

> * Moon Landing Day -> {tumkladj} -> {tykydy}
> * Armstrong Day -> {armstrongydj} -> {ayrydy}
> * Aldrin Day -> {aldrinydj} -> {aylydy}

For example, the Moon Landing Day,1970 would be li tykydy pi'e papyty

I'm also convinced that weekdays names should be names and I like forming
names with rafsi, so here are my proposals

> Days of the week:
> * Venusday -> {venusyd}
> * Saturnday -> {saturnyd}
> * Solday -> {solyd}
> * Lunaday -> {lunad}
> * Marsday -> {marsyd}
> * Mercuryday -> {mercuryd}
> * Jupiterday -> {djupiteryd}

Ending with "d" will leave less doubts on what those names do name.

For months, I've opted for the sound "m" to end the names, to remind of
{masti}. For months I would have loved to mimic what the inventor of
this calendar had done (using the letters from "A" to "M") but i found
difficult to adapt it to lojban due to the different sounds of letters
and the missing "h". So maybe numbers would be the better options.

> Months:
> * Archimedes -> arkimedesym
> * Brahe -> bra'em
> * Copernicus -> kopernikusym
> * Darwin -> daruinym
> * Einstein -> ainstainym
> * Faraday -> faradeim
> * Galileo -> galileom
> * Hippocrates -> xippocratesym
> * Imhotep -> imy'otepym
> * Jung -> iungym
> * Kepler -> keplerym
> * Lavoisier -> lavuasierym
> * Mendel -> mendelym

That said, the date of your message (Saturnday, Brahe 9, 43 AT) would be:

{saturnyd bra'em so pi'e vocipyty}

And you could have said:

{lo cabdei cu detri lu saturnyd bra'em so pi'e vocipyty li'u}

> Thank you for your time,

It has been very useful for me. I understand now that I should study
better how dates work in lojban!

I hope you can find some useful element in what I wrot!

remod

ianek

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Aug 29, 2011, 4:27:30 PM8/29/11

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On Aug 29, 9:56 pm, Remo Dentato <rdent...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > * Moon Landing Day -> {tumkladj} -> {tykydy}
> > * Armstrong Day -> {armstrongydj} -> {ayrydy}
> > * Aldrin Day -> {aldrinydj} -> {aylydy}

Are you sure "ay" is a valid part of a lerfu string? Shouldn't that be
{abu}?

mu'o mi'e ianek

DataPacRat

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Aug 29, 2011, 5:46:49 PM8/29/11

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On Aug 29, 3:56 pm, Remo Dentato <rdent...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Friday, August 26, 2011, DataPacRat <datapac...@gmail.com> wrote:

> It has been very useful for me. I understand now that I should study
> better how dates work in lojban!
>
> I hope you can find some useful element in what I wrot!
>
> remod

I am /very/ happy with what I read in your post, and I expect to adopt
most of it. :) (Once I have a good set of words to use, I'll be
running them through TengScribe to put them in the character's
preferred orthography, and then, once I work out a decent
presentation, putting up a webpage with the full calendar.)

I just ran all the words you proposed through an online Lojbanic
translator ( http://www.lojban.org/jboski/index.php ), to make sure
they followed proper word-formation rules, but a few of them came up
with errors.

> * Armstrong Day -> {armstrongydj} -> {ayrydy}
> * Aldrin Day -> {aldrinydj} -> {aylydy}

For these two, the long form seems fine, but the short form doesn't
quite seem to work. Fortunately, each of these days only occurs once
every year (or every four years), so I can probably get away with just
the long form, if need be.

> xippocratesym

I'm not really sure why the translator rejected this one.

> lavuasierym

The translator was trying to interpret 'la' separately from
'vuasierym', meaning this string isn't unambiguously a single word.

I'm now 95% towards my goal for this stage - now I just have to re-
read the rules on Lojbannic word-formation to see if I can figure out
how to fix the words. (Of course, if somebody wants to post fixes
before I figure it out myself, I'm perfectly willing to work with
that. :) )

Remo Dentato

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Aug 29, 2011, 6:03:13 PM8/29/11

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On Monday, August 29, 2011, DataPacRat <datap...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Aug 29, 3:56 pm, Remo Dentato <rdent...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Friday, August 26, 2011, DataPacRat <datapac...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> It has been very useful for me. I understand now that I should study
>> better how dates work in lojban!
>>
>> I hope you can find some useful element in what I wrot!
>>
>> remod
>
> I am /very/ happy with what I read in your post, and I expect to adopt
> most of it. :) (Once I have a good set of words to use, I'll be
> running them through TengScribe to put them in the character's
> preferred orthography, and then, once I work out a decent
> presentation, putting up a webpage with the full calendar.)
>
> I just ran all the words you proposed through an online Lojbanic
> translator ( http://www.lojban.org/jboski/index.php ), to make sure
> they followed proper word-formation rules, but a few of them came up
> with errors.
>
>
>> * Armstrong Day -> {armstrongydj} -> {ayrydy}
>> * Aldrin Day -> {aldrinydj} -> {aylydy}
>
> For these two, the long form seems fine, but the short form doesn't
> quite seem to work. Fortunately, each of these days only occurs once
> every year (or every four years), so I can probably get away with just
> the long form, if need be.
>

The short form is wrong, sorry :( it should be {aburydy} and {abulydy}. My fault!
also the long form should end in "d" and no longer in "dj"

>
>> xippocratesym
>
> I'm not really sure why the translator rejected this one.
>

for the double "p", should be {xipokratesym} (note that the "c" was wrong too).

>> lavuasierym

for the initial "la". It is avoidable if you remember to always use "dotside" as in {.lavuasierym.} or change it in {lyvuasierym}

>
> The translator was trying to interpret 'la' separately from
> 'vuasierym', meaning this string isn't unambiguously a single word.
>

SorryI planned to check everything twice but since I sent the first email in error, I had to rush to complete the "right" one

Let us know how your character comes out!

remod

>
> I'm now 95% towards my goal for this stage - now I just have to re-
> read the rules on Lojbannic word-formation to see if I can figure out
> how to fix the words. (Of course, if somebody wants to post fixes
> before I figure it out myself, I'm perfectly willing to work with
> that. :) )
>

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DataPacRat

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Aug 29, 2011, 11:52:51 PM8/29/11

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On Aug 29, 6:03 pm, Remo Dentato <rdent...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Monday, August 29, 2011, DataPacRat <datapac...@gmail.com> wrote:

> > I am /very/ happy with what I read in your post, and I expect to adopt
> > most of it. :) (Once I have a good set of words to use, I'll be
> > running them through TengScribe to put them in the character's
> > preferred orthography, and then, once I work out a decent
> > presentation, putting up a webpage with the full calendar.)

> Let us know how your character comes out!

I've put a rough draft of what I've typed out so far at
http://www.datapacrat.com/calendar/ ; I welcome any corrections,
suggestions for improvement, or other feedback.

Ian Johnson

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Aug 30, 2011, 7:06:34 PM8/30/11

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Making a fu'ivla for "tranquility" is malgli; making a fu'ivla for "tranquil" and then using a {ka} or something similar is less malgli. (Frankly I think this would not be that hard to render in a lujvo. Perhaps with {cando}, although I'm not sure how well that applies to the ambient notion of tranquility.) Also a possible problem is that the stress is (and must be, to maintain brivla morphology) {tran-ku-i-LI-ti}, which sounds odd to an English ear.

mu'o mi'e latros

--

Remo Dentato

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Aug 31, 2011, 1:15:05 AM8/31/11

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On Wed, Aug 31, 2011 at 1:06 AM, Ian Johnson <blindb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Making a fu'ivla for "tranquility" is malgli; making a fu'ivla for
> "tranquil" and then using a {ka} or something similar is less malgli.

I don't think, Ian. fui'vla are there exactly for importing from other
language words that may have not counterpart in lojban. Is it malglico
when one try to force a native language construct into lojban (e.g.
"being a chicken" for being a coward)

In this case we are not talking about the concept of "tranquility"
that can best be done with a lujvo (i would go with {tolxanka} maybe)
but we are talking about a specific word "Tranquiiity" which has been
spoken on the Moon a certain day at a certain time.

Personally, I would consider malglico trying to translate this
"Tranquility" with a lujvo because a lujvo is a relation an not a
word, it's just because in our native language there's not such
distinction that we mix the two things.

> (Frankly I think this would not be that hard to render in a lujvo. Perhaps
> with {cando}, although I'm not sure how well that applies to the ambient
> notion of tranquility.)

Yes, in the end, we could build a lujvo for that, after all we can
decide meaning for a lujvo quite arbitrarily but, again, I think that
for things like this (I would expect some form of consistency when
borrowing a calendar into lojban) fu'ivla are a good option. We
probably use them too little and in too specific, obscure, occasions.

> Also a possible problem is that the stress is (and
> must be, to maintain brivla morphology) {tran-ku-i-LI-ti}, which sounds odd
> to an English ear.

This is true, The option would be to use {trankuilti} ({ui} is a
diphton}) or an accent ({trankuìliti} {tranKUIliti}). Probably
{trankuilti} would work the best.

I realize I didn't give the gloss! {trankuilti} = "x1 is the epoch of
the Tranquility calendar"

remod

Jonathan Jones

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Aug 31, 2011, 1:45:19 AM8/31/11

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On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 11:15 PM, Remo Dentato <rden...@gmail.com> wrote:

Personally, I would consider malglico trying to translate this
"Tranquility" with a lujvo because a lujvo is a relation an not a
word, it's just because in our native language there's not such
distinction that we mix the two things.

That is not a valid argument. fu'ivla are also relations.

rden...@gmail.com

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Aug 31, 2011, 2:01:03 AM8/31/11

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On , Jonathan Jones <eye...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 11:15 PM, Remo Dentato rden...@gmail.com> wrote:

>> Personally, I would consider malglico trying to translate this
>> "Tranquility" with a lujvo because a lujvo is a relation an not a
>> word, it's just because in our native language there's not such
>> distinction that we mix the two things.
> That is not a valid argument. fu'ivla are also relations.

I realized I was unclear the second I hit "Send" :( Sorry.

I meant the confusion between the relations:

"x1 is the word 'Tranquility' spoken on the Moon ... etc"
"x1 is a state of tranquility experencied by ... etc"

we just say "tranquility" in both cases.

My argument is that for the first relation, a specific usage of an English word, I would propose a fui'vla ({trankuilti} if we agree to solve the accent issue this way) and for the second i would use the lujvo {tolxanka} ({nu tolxanka}).

Hope I managed to be a little bit clearer.

remod

Jorge Llambías

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Aug 31, 2011, 7:52:35 AM8/31/11

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On Wed, Aug 31, 2011 at 2:15 AM, Remo Dentato <rden...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> The option would be to use {trankuilti} ({ui} is a
> diphton}) or an accent ({trankuìliti} {tranKUIliti}). Probably
> {trankuilti} would work the best.

"trankuíliti" is not really an option since it's two words, fu'ivla
"trankuili" followed by cmavo "ti".

All brivla must have penultimate stress.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

Ian Johnson

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Aug 31, 2011, 8:22:44 AM8/31/11

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My mistake, I didn't click the link in the OP and took "Tranquility" literally. Now that I know what's going on, I'd just make a cmevla (mu'a {trankUIlitis}) and leave it at that. We don't need a relation for this purpose at all.

mu'o mi'e latros

Remo Dentato

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Aug 31, 2011, 8:23:52 AM8/31/11

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2011/8/31 Jorge Llambías <jjlla...@gmail.com>:

> On Wed, Aug 31, 2011 at 2:15 AM, Remo Dentato <rden...@gmail.com> wrote:
> "trankuíliti" is not really an option since it's two words, fu'ivla
> "trankuili" followed by cmavo "ti".

This escapes me. Why is that? I thought that a fu'ivla would have
continued until the end of the word.

> All brivla must have penultimate stress.

Ok, so definitely {trankuilti} should work.

Thanks,

remod

.alyn.post.

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Aug 31, 2011, 8:31:38 AM8/31/11

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On Wed, Aug 31, 2011 at 02:23:52PM +0200, Remo Dentato wrote:
> 2011/8/31 Jorge Llamb�as <jjlla...@gmail.com>:

> > On Wed, Aug 31, 2011 at 2:15 AM, Remo Dentato <rden...@gmail.com> wrote:

> > "tranku�liti" is not really an option since it's two words, fu'ivla

> > "trankuili" followed by cmavo "ti".
>
> This escapes me. Why is that? I thought that a fu'ivla would have
> continued until the end of the word.
>
> > All brivla must have penultimate stress.
>
> Ok, so definitely {trankuilti} should work.
>
> Thanks,
>
> remod
>

Hrm, camxes agrees with remod:

$ echo "trankuiliti"|java -jar lojban_peg_parser.jar
text
BRIVLA
fuhivla: trankuiliti

$ echo "trankuili ti"|java -jar lojban_peg_parser.jar
text
bridiTail3
|- BRIVLA
| fuhivla: trankuili
|- CMAVO
KOhA: ti

Is that a bug or a feature?

-Alan

Jorge Llambías

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Aug 31, 2011, 5:58:42 PM8/31/11

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On Wed, Aug 31, 2011 at 9:31 AM, .alyn.post.
<alyn...@lodockikumazvati.org> wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 31, 2011 at 02:23:52PM +0200, Remo Dentato wrote:

>> 2011/8/31 Jorge Llambías <jjlla...@gmail.com>:

>> > On Wed, Aug 31, 2011 at 2:15 AM, Remo Dentato <rden...@gmail.com> wrote:

>> > "trankuíliti" is not really an option since it's two words, fu'ivla

>> > "trankuili" followed by cmavo "ti".
>>
>> This escapes me. Why is that? I thought that a fu'ivla would have
>> continued until the end of the word.

Of course every word continues until its end, how could it be otherwise?

But the end of a brivla is found one syllable after the stressed
syllable, not when a space is found.

> Hrm, camxes agrees with remod:
>
> $ echo "trankuiliti"|java -jar lojban_peg_parser.jar
> text
> BRIVLA
> fuhivla: trankuiliti

"trankuiliti" is fine, (with stressed "lí") but the one we were
discussing had the stress on "kuí". Try "tranKUIliti" on camxes.

Remo Dentato

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Sep 1, 2011, 4:30:57 AM9/1/11

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2011/8/31 Jorge Llambías <jjlla...@gmail.com>:

> But the end of a brivla is found one syllable after the stressed
> syllable, not when a space is found.

I see! I completely missed that. I thought that the rule "all brivla
are stressed on the penultimate syllable" was a reiteration of the
general rule about the stress. I now understand that this is a more
stringent, which make accents in Lojban basically only applicable to
cmevla.

> "trankuiliti" is fine, (with stressed "lí") but the one we were
> discussing had the stress on "kuí". Try "tranKUIliti" on camxes.