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Re: Can't We Have Another Vote for Systemd (Coup)
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Gregory Smith
Sep 25, 2014, 11:10:02 AM9/25/14
to
And the answer is no!
Of course.
The debian founding documents state that debian was created for the benefit of the user.
(The premise of the whole free software movement is the rights of the user: the developers rights are clearly best served by the standard proprietary copyright regime)
We are told that any vote by the user would be, in a word, disrespectful of the founding documents!
We are then informed that because earlier a general resolution by some attentive debian package maintainers failed there shall never be another attempt. Of course this earlier attempt occurred before everyone decided to update to Jessie from wheezy, but that makes no difference.
How convenient.
The fact of the matter is that the technical committee even ruling on this matter was an illegal abuse of process. Such wide ranging changes which are not purely technical in nature Must go to a general resolution to be voted on by all of the debian package maintainers. The abuse of the technical committee, which is stacked with former or current redhat and ubuntu(canonical) employees was intentional. It came just at the time when the correct person was in the chairmanship.
What has occurred in debian can be described as a coup.
And the trajectory has followed the standard coup path: a beurocratic organ was used to over ride and subvert a formally democratic body, then once such was completed the decision made by a few was declared fiat complete, then harsh critics of the new regime were silenced, and the population informed that they had two choices: conform or get out.
You can see the same in Egypt today. Same mechanisms. They use bullets though, rather than bans.
Debian, in its founding documents, like the free software movement it once belonged to in fact and in spirit, was created for the users. It is not, by fiat, a doacracy.
When it was created the users of debian and some of the programmers who created the "upstream" as it is now called were the debian packagers. Since then a new class that is neither user nor programmer has arising and stuck itself between us, all the while kicking the actually productive free software developers out of debian for social crimes.
That is the story, that is what has happened. They have taken our Linux distribution from us. The Frenchman above me is one of that number.
Hörmetjan Yiltiz
Sep 25, 2014, 2:30:01 PM9/25/14
to
So what you mean, is the decision was a result of "coup", and do not believe that another vote could be possible, even after 2/3 of active Debian users in this list ask for it?
祝好，
========================
He who is worthy to receive his days and nights is worthy to receive* all
else* from you (and me).
The Prophet, Gibran Kahlil
========================
He who is worthy to receive his days and nights is worthy to receive* all
else* from you (and me).
The Prophet, Gibran Kahlil
Joel Roth
Sep 25, 2014, 2:50:03 PM9/25/14
to
which Microsoft got its OOXML document "standard" approved
by the ISO technical committee.
http://www.groklaw.net/staticpages/index.php?page=20051216153153504
For those who don't know (or recall) Groklaw provided
factual journalism and investigative resources, initially
for the SCO vs. IBM and associated trials, where SCO
claimed ownership of Linux. These cases dragged out for
the better part of a decade. Microsoft was shown to
have funded and backed SCO.
Groklaw also accomplished a large part of the huge task
of transcribing to searchable text the transcripts of
the Microsoft vs. Comes trial, where many of MS's
illegal practices were revealed.
In a better world the Groklaw community would be here today
to analyze this issue. Pamela Jones froze the site when it
became clear that email traffic among her correspondents was
being monitored, that the confidentiality of communications
channels essential to running the site was no longer
trustworthy.
I would say that systemd takeover of major Linux distributions
and of Debian in particular would be a perfect subject
for Groklaw.
> Debian, in its founding documents, like the free software movement it once
> belonged to in fact and in spirit, was created for the users. It is not, by
> fiat, a doacracy.
>
> When it was created the users of debian and some of the programmers who
> created the "upstream" as it is now called were the debian packagers. Since
> then a new class that is neither user nor programmer has arising and stuck
> itself between us, all the while kicking the actually productive free
> software developers out of debian for social crimes.
>
> That is the story, that is what has happened. They have taken our Linux
> distribution from us. The Frenchman above me is one of that number.
Joel Roth
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John Hasler
Sep 25, 2014, 3:10:01 PM9/25/14
to
Hörmetjan Yiltiz writes:
> So what you mean, is the decision was a result of "coup", and do not
> believe that another vote could be possible, even after 2/3 of active
> Debian users in this list ask for it?
No, the decision was not the result of a "coup" and yes, a GR could
> So what you mean, is the decision was a result of "coup", and do not
> believe that another vote could be possible, even after 2/3 of active
> Debian users in this list ask for it?
overturn it. Since this is an open list a "vote" of its "members" would
be meaningless. However, there's no need for a vote. Debian is Free
Software. You can do as you wish with your copy of it, including
starting a new distribution that you run your way. Please do so and
start your own mailing list.
I dislike Systemd but I dislike loony rants about "coups" and "taking
our distribution away from us" even more.
--
John Hasler
jha...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA
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Lisi Reisz
Sep 25, 2014, 4:20:01 PM9/25/14
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On Thursday 25 September 2014 19:04:07 Hörmetjan Yiltiz wrote:
> even after 2/3 of active
> Debian users in this list ask for it?
They haven't. A few of you have. Nothing like two thirds.
> even after 2/3 of active
> Debian users in this list ask for it?
Lisi
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Andrei POPESCU
Sep 25, 2014, 5:20:01 PM9/25/14
to
On Jo, 25 sep 14, 21:01:30, Lisi Reisz wrote:
> On Thursday 25 September 2014 19:04:07 Hörmetjan Yiltiz wrote:
> > even after 2/3 of active
> > Debian users in this list ask for it?
>
> They haven't. A few of you have. Nothing like two thirds.
Just to put some numbers behind this: according to
> On Thursday 25 September 2014 19:04:07 Hörmetjan Yiltiz wrote:
> > even after 2/3 of active
> > Debian users in this list ask for it?
>
> They haven't. A few of you have. Nothing like two thirds.
https://lists.debian.org/stats/ this list has 3282 subscribers. That's
of course not counting all those reading it via newsgroups (most notable
Gmane), Google Groups, the list archives, etc.
Kind regards,
Andrei
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Ric Moore
Sep 25, 2014, 5:20:01 PM9/25/14
to
On 09/25/2014 02:25 PM, Joel Roth wrote:
> I would say that systemd takeover of major Linux distributions
> and of Debian in particular would be a perfect subject
> for Groklaw.
How so?? Legally, Debian has the legal stance of a "Club". It is not a
> I would say that systemd takeover of major Linux distributions
> and of Debian in particular would be a perfect subject
> for Groklaw.
for-profit with Corporate Responsibilities towards share holders and/or
the Government, who authorizes and spells out the said protections and
responsibilities of a Legally Incorporated Corporation.
Who would you sue for relief?? A "club"?? Membership is free, you are
free to come and go at any time, there are no restrictions to your
freedom to belong to this "club" or not. You are free to boot Debian and
use it, or pound sand, since there is no financial investment on the
members of the "Club" where membership is completely and expressly
voluntary.
So, what would you allege as abuse to yourself, since the members of the
technical steering committee followed the letter of the Debian technical
committee rules? They had the power to decide and they did.
My old attorney in Texas told me that he "would sue anybody for
anything". once I dropped 5 grand on the table ...in advance. If you
have 5 grand to blow, I'll give you his name. I know he will take your
money, ...no doubt at all. Ric
--
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
Linux user# 44256
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Joel Roth
Sep 25, 2014, 5:50:02 PM9/25/14
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On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 05:01:03PM -0400, Ric Moore wrote:
> On 09/25/2014 02:25 PM, Joel Roth wrote:
>
> >I would say that systemd takeover of major Linux distributions
> >and of Debian in particular would be a perfect subject
> >for Groklaw.
>
> How so?? Legally, Debian has the legal stance of a "Club". It is not a
> for-profit with Corporate Responsibilities towards share holders and/or the
> Government, who authorizes and spells out the said protections and
> responsibilities of a Legally Incorporated Corporation.
I was thinking in terms of journalism and analysis.
> On 09/25/2014 02:25 PM, Joel Roth wrote:
>
> >I would say that systemd takeover of major Linux distributions
> >and of Debian in particular would be a perfect subject
> >for Groklaw.
>
> How so?? Legally, Debian has the legal stance of a "Club". It is not a
> for-profit with Corporate Responsibilities towards share holders and/or the
> Government, who authorizes and spells out the said protections and
> responsibilities of a Legally Incorporated Corporation.
Cheers
--
Joel Roth
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John Hasler
Sep 25, 2014, 7:10:01 PM9/25/14
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Ric Moore writes:
> You are free to boot Debian and use it...
You are also free to copy it, modify it in any way you wish, and start
your own distribution based on it.
> You are free to boot Debian and use it...
You are also free to copy it, modify it in any way you wish, and start
your own distribution based on it.
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Richard Owlett
Sep 25, 2014, 9:40:01 PM9/25/14
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Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> On Jo, 25 sep 14, 21:01:30, Lisi Reisz wrote:
> On Jo, 25 sep 14, 21:01:30, Lisi Reisz wrote:
>> On Thursday 25 September 2014 19:04:07 H�rmetjan Yiltiz wrote:
>>> even after 2/3 of active
>>> Debian users in this list ask for it?
>>
>> They haven't. A few of you have. Nothing like two thirds.
>
> Just to put some numbers behind this: according to
> https://lists.debian.org/stats/ this list has 3282 subscribers. That's
> of course not counting all those reading it via newsgroups (most notable
> Gmane), Google Groups, the list archives, etc.
>
> Kind regards,
> Andrei
>
I'm a subscriber.
>>> even after 2/3 of active
>>> Debian users in this list ask for it?
>>
>> They haven't. A few of you have. Nothing like two thirds.
>
> Just to put some numbers behind this: according to
> https://lists.debian.org/stats/ this list has 3282 subscribers. That's
> of course not counting all those reading it via newsgroups (most notable
> Gmane), Google Groups, the list archives, etc.
>
> Kind regards,
> Andrei
>
My opinion is that systemd may break Debian attempting to solve a
non-existent problem.
P.S. to Andrei
I'm still following up on your suggestion to investigate
deboostrap/multistrap.
Thank you
<GRIN>
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Ric Moore
Sep 25, 2014, 10:00:01 PM9/25/14
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On 09/25/2014 06:46 PM, John Hasler wrote:
> Ric Moore writes:
>> You are free to boot Debian and use it...
>
> You are also free to copy it, modify it in any way you wish, and start
> your own distribution based on it.
There ya go! You can do as you please. It is, after all, a club. :) Ric
> Ric Moore writes:
>> You are free to boot Debian and use it...
>
> You are also free to copy it, modify it in any way you wish, and start
> your own distribution based on it.
--
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
Linux user# 44256
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Linux Dave
Sep 25, 2014, 11:30:02 PM9/25/14
to
The way I see it, Debian is a "do-ocracy" in the sense that if you want some sort of functionality of the software Debian offers, then you can write the code and change things. I think what the OP intends by this thread is that the everyday users of Debian should have been given more of a say in the Systemd decision. There are lots of ways this could have been done in a more open and transparent (meaning accessible to all) manner. Afterall, what is the harm in opening a general vote on the Systemd move on perhaps the Forums? And allow all registered users to vote. Perhaps even requiring everyone to re-register in a more controlled manner before being allowed to vote so that we can have some way of ensuring these people at least use Debian and have some skin in the game? Just a thought, and it would definitely provide fuel to silence the critics when the results are posted.
In terms of the heated discussions over Systemd. I think it boils down to what some (a lot, actually) of people feel that moving towards a monolithic init system which seems to be gobbling up critical infrastructure functions at an alarming rate runs counter to Linux fundamentals that have served this Distro extremely well up until now, apparently.On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 9:34 PM, Ric Moore <waywa...@gmail.com> wrote:
On 09/25/2014 06:46 PM, John Hasler wrote:
Ric Moore writes:
You are free to boot Debian and use it...
You are also free to copy it, modify it in any way you wish, and start
your own distribution based on it.
There ya go! You can do as you please. It is, after all, a club. :) Ric
--
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
Linux user# 44256
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Gregory Smith
Sep 26, 2014, 2:50:02 AM9/26/14
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Club or not, common law criminal fraud applies.
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Gregory Smith
Sep 26, 2014, 2:50:02 AM9/26/14
to
The mailing list operator has threatened to ban me from the mailing list because I posted systemd critical opinions which explain precisely what has occured in debian. This is the debian coup's modus operandi. They see criticism and then silence it. People keep sending mails to the list but they never get through after that.
Shown below:Don Armstrong <d...@debian.org>
6:26 PM (11 hours ago)
to listmasters, me
On Thu, 25 Sep 2014, Gregory Smith wrote:
> That is the story, that is what has happened. They have taken our
> Linux distribution from us. The Frenchman above me is one of that
> number.
On Thu, 25 Sep 2014, Gregory Smith wrote:
> This was an orchestrated fraudulent oligarchic takeover and charges
> need to be brought agains you and them.
These messages are off topic and inflammatory and have no place on
-user.
Further messages along these lines may result in removing your ability
to post to -user or additional Debian mailing lists without further
warning.
--
Don Armstrong http://www.donarmstrong.com
This isn't life in the fast lane, it's life in the oncoming traffic
-- Terry Pratchett
> This was an orchestrated fraudulent oligarchic takeover and charges
> need to be brought agains you and them.
These messages are off topic and inflammatory and have no place on
-user.
Further messages along these lines may result in removing your ability
to post to -user or additional Debian mailing lists without further
warning.
--
Don Armstrong http://www.donarmstrong.com
This isn't life in the fast lane, it's life in the oncoming traffic
-- Terry Pratchett
Gregory Smith
Sep 26, 2014, 3:00:03 AM9/26/14
to
Debian was not created as a doacracy of package maintainers,
that is a falsehood that the coupists keep repeating. Debian
was created as a universal operating system for the users.
Just as the Free Software movement itself was created NOT
for the developers and package maintainers of the software
of the 1970s but for the benifit of the end USER //AGAINST//
the developers who were taking control.
It was a revolt against the "doers" who had become dictators,
by the end users.
Here in Debian and other previously free-software projects
the "doers"* have Again become the dictators.
(*in debian the doers are not the programmers. I am a
programmer, media designer, and song writer on various
free software projects. I'm not a
debian maintainer, I'd never be accepted by their social rules.
Lots of non-programmers are however, they do as they are told,
they are good boys and girls)
Eventually software is completed, it does what it was designed to do
and does it well. At that point any more "Do"ing will push it
out of scope and is a bad thing. At that point, in free software
projects, the original creators go dormant...
and then shit pushers take over.
Debian might be an opensource project, but it has left the domain
of free-software. It's like a bad government who has stopped
serving its people and instead become their master.
that is a falsehood that the coupists keep repeating. Debian
was created as a universal operating system for the users.
Just as the Free Software movement itself was created NOT
for the developers and package maintainers of the software
of the 1970s but for the benifit of the end USER //AGAINST//
the developers who were taking control.
It was a revolt against the "doers" who had become dictators,
by the end users.
Here in Debian and other previously free-software projects
the "doers"* have Again become the dictators.
(*in debian the doers are not the programmers. I am a
programmer, media designer, and song writer on various
free software projects. I'm not a
debian maintainer, I'd never be accepted by their social rules.
Lots of non-programmers are however, they do as they are told,
they are good boys and girls)
Eventually software is completed, it does what it was designed to do
and does it well. At that point any more "Do"ing will push it
out of scope and is a bad thing. At that point, in free software
projects, the original creators go dormant...
and then shit pushers take over.
Debian might be an opensource project, but it has left the domain
of free-software. It's like a bad government who has stopped
serving its people and instead become their master.
Lisi Reisz
Sep 26, 2014, 3:20:01 AM9/26/14
to
On Friday 26 September 2014 07:27:42 Gregory Smith wrote:
> The mailing list operator has threatened to ban me from the mailing list
Good
> The mailing list operator has threatened to ban me from the mailing list
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Lisi Reisz
Sep 26, 2014, 3:20:03 AM9/26/14
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On Friday 26 September 2014 07:24:14 Gregory Smith wrote:
> Club or not, common law criminal fraud applies.
Which jurisdiction?
> Club or not, common law criminal fraud applies.
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The Wanderer
Sep 26, 2014, 8:50:01 AM9/26/14
to
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512
On 09/26/2014 at 02:27 AM, Gregory Smith wrote:
> The mailing list operator has threatened to ban me from the
> mailing list because I posted systemd critical opinions which
> explain precisely what has occured in debian. This is the debian
> coup's modus operandi. They see criticism and then silence it.
> People keep sending mails to the list but they never get through
> after that.
>
> Shown below: Don Armstrong <d...@debian.org>
>
> 6:26 PM (11 hours ago)
nationality...
> On Thu, 25 Sep 2014, Gregory Smith wrote:
>> This was an orchestrated fraudulent oligarchic takeover and
>> charges need to be brought agains you and them.
...and a call for legal action, without any actual basis in the law for
such action to be taken.
I don't see any indication that "systemd critical opinions" is what led
to your being warned about a post-ban.
I think you've made a few good (or at least "decent") points in the
midst of your rants, but I still think you're just plain incorrect about
most of it.
- --
The Wanderer
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all
progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw
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Hash: SHA512
On 09/26/2014 at 02:27 AM, Gregory Smith wrote:
> The mailing list operator has threatened to ban me from the
> mailing list because I posted systemd critical opinions which
> explain precisely what has occured in debian. This is the debian
> coup's modus operandi. They see criticism and then silence it.
> People keep sending mails to the list but they never get through
> after that.
>
> Shown below: Don Armstrong <d...@debian.org>
>
> 6:26 PM (11 hours ago)
> On Thu, 25 Sep 2014, Gregory Smith wrote:
>> That is the story, that is what has happened. They have taken
>> our Linux distribution from us. The Frenchman above me is one of
>> that number.
So, a gratuitous (and presumably derogatory?) reference to a poster's
>> That is the story, that is what has happened. They have taken
>> our Linux distribution from us. The Frenchman above me is one of
>> that number.
nationality...
> On Thu, 25 Sep 2014, Gregory Smith wrote:
>> This was an orchestrated fraudulent oligarchic takeover and
>> charges need to be brought agains you and them.
such action to be taken.
I don't see any indication that "systemd critical opinions" is what led
to your being warned about a post-ban.
I think you've made a few good (or at least "decent") points in the
midst of your rants, but I still think you're just plain incorrect about
most of it.
- --
The Wanderer
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all
progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw
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Miles Fidelman
Sep 26, 2014, 11:30:02 AM9/26/14
to
Joel Roth wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 05:01:03PM -0400, Ric Moore wrote:
>> On 09/25/2014 02:25 PM, Joel Roth wrote:
>>
>>> I would say that systemd takeover of major Linux distributions
>>> and of Debian in particular would be a perfect subject
>>> for Groklaw.
>> How so?? Legally, Debian has the legal stance of a "Club". It is not a
>> for-profit with Corporate Responsibilities towards share holders and/or the
>> Government, who authorizes and spells out the said protections and
>> responsibilities of a Legally Incorporated Corporation.
> I was thinking in terms of journalism and analysis.
>
>
Actually, there is quite a bit of law and case law regarding
> On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 05:01:03PM -0400, Ric Moore wrote:
>> On 09/25/2014 02:25 PM, Joel Roth wrote:
>>
>>> I would say that systemd takeover of major Linux distributions
>>> and of Debian in particular would be a perfect subject
>>> for Groklaw.
>> How so?? Legally, Debian has the legal stance of a "Club". It is not a
>> for-profit with Corporate Responsibilities towards share holders and/or the
>> Government, who authorizes and spells out the said protections and
>> responsibilities of a Legally Incorporated Corporation.
> I was thinking in terms of journalism and analysis.
>
>
"unincorporated associations" - which is technically what Debian is. It
has bylaws and officers. And there's also Software in the Public
Interest, which acts as fiscal agent.
Miles Fidelman
--
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is. .... Yogi Berra
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Andrei POPESCU
Sep 30, 2014, 7:40:02 PM9/30/14
to
On Vi, 26 sep 14, 11:03:07, Miles Fidelman wrote:
> Joel Roth wrote:
> >On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 05:01:03PM -0400, Ric Moore wrote:
> >>On 09/25/2014 02:25 PM, Joel Roth wrote:
> >>
> >>>I would say that systemd takeover of major Linux distributions
> >>>and of Debian in particular would be a perfect subject
> >>>for Groklaw.
> >>How so?? Legally, Debian has the legal stance of a "Club". It is not a
> >>for-profit with Corporate Responsibilities towards share holders and/or the
> >>Government, who authorizes and spells out the said protections and
> >>responsibilities of a Legally Incorporated Corporation.
> >I was thinking in terms of journalism and analysis.
> >
> Actually, there is quite a bit of law and case law regarding "unincorporated
> associations" - which is technically what Debian is. It has bylaws and
> officers. And there's also Software in the Public Interest, which acts as
> fiscal agent.
In which jurisdiction?
> Joel Roth wrote:
> >On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 05:01:03PM -0400, Ric Moore wrote:
> >>On 09/25/2014 02:25 PM, Joel Roth wrote:
> >>
> >>>I would say that systemd takeover of major Linux distributions
> >>>and of Debian in particular would be a perfect subject
> >>>for Groklaw.
> >>How so?? Legally, Debian has the legal stance of a "Club". It is not a
> >>for-profit with Corporate Responsibilities towards share holders and/or the
> >>Government, who authorizes and spells out the said protections and
> >>responsibilities of a Legally Incorporated Corporation.
> >I was thinking in terms of journalism and analysis.
> >
> Actually, there is quite a bit of law and case law regarding "unincorporated
> associations" - which is technically what Debian is. It has bylaws and
> officers. And there's also Software in the Public Interest, which acts as
> fiscal agent.
http://www.debian.org/devel/developers.loc
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