LaTeX and Word people working together...

[askaholik]

...is there is such a thing? it can be ever possible?
I'm working with other 5 people on the same document (paper), and we
are debating whether it is good to use Word or LaTeX. I'm going for
LaTeX, but there are other people that are *strongly* pushing for
Word.

We all agreed that:
1) We need to work on the same document: we don't want to convert to
another format then put back the modifications (i.e. latex2rtf is not
practical: spoils all the references/formula/figures/etc, then putting
back the modifications is not easy)

2) With word, we can just send by email the updated file to all the
people, while with latex sources we need to share the whole directory,
which is not practical. Few of them don't have any IT background, and
I would like to keep things as easy as possible. We already discarded
the option of using pdf files, and let the no-LaTeX people just
commenting the pdf.

What I'm looking for is some sort of web-based document manager (even
google documents based) that allows to "compile" online the LaTeX. Or,
maybe a sort of MS Word plugin that makes possible to work with LaTeX
without messing up the structure of the document (for example Word
with HTML can do very nasty things, I suspect it can go nasty with
LaTeX as well). I'm not really confident with MS stuff, so I don't
know where to start actually!

Any idea?
cheers!!!

[Peter Flynn]

On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 8:06 AM, askaholik <aska...@gmail.com> wrote:

...is there is such a thing? it can be ever possible?

Not if you mean shared editing.  LaTeX is not a sharable edit format unless everyone uses LaTeX.
 

I'm working with other 5 people on the same document (paper), and we
are debating whether it is good to use Word or LaTeX. I'm going for
LaTeX, but there are other people that are *strongly* pushing for
Word.

They are right, but for the wrong reasons.
 

We all agreed that:
1) We need to work on the same document: we don't want to convert to
another format then put back the modifications (i.e. latex2rtf is not
practical: spoils all the references/formula/figures/etc, then putting
back the modifications is not easy)

Right.
 

2) With word, we can just send by email the updated file to all the
people, while with latex sources we need to share the whole directory,
which is not practical. Few of them don't have any IT background, and
I would like to keep things as easy as possible. We already discarded
the option of using pdf files, and let the no-LaTeX people just
commenting the pdf.

Right too.
 

What I'm looking for is some sort of web-based document manager (even
google documents based) that allows to "compile" online the LaTeX. Or,
maybe a sort of MS Word plugin that makes possible to work with LaTeX
without messing up the structure of the document (for example Word
with HTML can do very nasty things, I suspect it can go nasty with
LaTeX as well). I'm not really confident with MS stuff, so I don't
know where to start actually!

The easier way is for everyone to use Word with Named Styles in a template, saved as OOXML (this means a .docx file, NOT a .doc file, so everyone must have an up-to-date copy of Word, OpenOffice, LibreOffice, or anything that can open and save .docx files).

Use this for co-editing, sticking VERY STRICTLY to the named styles you provide in the template. The result is an XML document which can fairly simply be transformed into LaTeX for typesetting. That way you can produce decent PDFs but keep the wordprocessor interface for editing with. It also means that you can run similar transformations to generate a HTML copy for the web, an eBook, or whatever.

But it does rely on 100% adherence to the named styles. If you allow people to style things manually with the font menus, then the whole thing will fall apart. It means taking normal.dotx and adding to it any extra styles that you think your project needs. Most of the obvious ones are already there: Title, Heading1, Heading2, ListBullet, ListNumber, etc, and OOXML does identify crossreferences, footnotes, etc in a reprocessable manner in the XML.

My university does this for their online journals: authors need initial training (read: whipping or otherwise coercing) to use Styles and to set the Style Margin to a non-zero amount, but once they see the benefits, it's not a problem. We give them this document to explain it (that will need adapting for your circumstances). Writing the XSLT to transform to LaTeX has been done in lots of places.

The only difficulty is persuading the co-authors of the need for rigour in using styles. They, like the rest of the planet, have grown up brainwashed by Microsoft's brilliantly clever marketing (assisted by all the other wordprocessors) to believe that making a document look pretty is the same thing as making it right. LaTeX users know better: which is more usable:

\par\bigskip\goodbreak\noindent\textbf{\Large Conclusions}\par\medskip\nonbreak

or

\section{Conclusions}

The first one is what people do in Word if they have never seen Styles. The second one is the same as Heading1 in Word.

///Peter

[Peter Flynn]

And I should have added that if the document contains math or giant complex tables, it becomes 2-3 orders of magnitude harder to transform to LaTeX. It is technically possible, just difficult.

///Peter

[Sivasubramani S]

Hi Peter,

I too had a discussion with my colleagues about LaTex and MS Word. I could not convince those who are using Word and Power point.

I am being told that why are you taking pain in using Latex since everything is possible in word itself.

However, i dont agree with them after enjoying Latex.

How to justify that Latex is superior than word and power point?

On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 4:55 PM, Peter Flynn <angleb...@gmail.com> wrote:

And I should have added that if the document contains math or giant complex tables, it becomes 2-3 orders of magnitude harder to transform to LaTeX. It is technically possible, just difficult.

///Peter

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "LaTeX Users Group" group.
To post to this group, send email to latexus...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to latexusersgro...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/latexusersgroup?hl=en.

--
S Sivasubramani
Research Scholar
ESB 341, Power System Research Lab
IIT Madras, Chennai 36

[Gildas Cotomale]

> 2) With word, we can just send by email the updated file to all the
> people, while with latex sources we need to share the whole directory,
> which is not practical. Few of them don't have any IT background, and
> I would like to keep things as easy as possible. We already discarded
> the option of using pdf files, and let the no-LaTeX people just
> commenting the pdf.
>

With MS-Word you all must have the same version of the software... or
save in the least common denominator, and then most of them will find
it less interesting.
Sometimes one need to add some interesting notes when the proprietary
software is not there and you understand why simple text editors are
still alive.
But wait a while. Why do you need to share the hole directory
everytime when using LaTeX ? Can't you work on multiple file and merge
the final result ? or is it another nice stuff Word can't do?
And as you use a binary format, a transfert error for example and a
big part (if not all) is lost...
Etc.

> What I'm looking for is some sort of web-based document manager (even
> google documents based) that allows to "compile" online the LaTeX. Or,

You can export to XML (and/or maybe TeX) from many CMS with some
strict textual syntax (like wiki, textile, markupdown, etc.)

[Gildas Cotomale]

> I too had a discussion with my colleagues about LaTex and MS Word. I could
> not convince those who are using Word and Power point.
>
> I am being told that why are you taking pain in using Latex since everything
> is possible in word itself.
>

Not sure: it's an illusion...
An example. As teacher, my collegua and I have to prepare paper
quizzes and their results. Guess what? They have to maintain two
versoin (two times work) while I use a single .tex file (one
compiilaton without the results, a parameter to change and another
compilation with the results,.. Finaly one is trying to mimic that
with Access + VBA stuffs)

> However, i dont agree with them after enjoying Latex.
>
> How to justify that Latex is superior than word and power point?
>

Don't try to convince people that are not ready to listen to you or
won't ever change their habits.
For others, your LaTeX pcaghige may be your ambassador... Another
example : a friend of mine try to learn LaTeX after spenting some
times in order to write a letter (he has te place elements) and a just
put the same text in a text file with some minimal taging (letter
class) and the result was far superior.

[Peter Flynn]

On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 4:49 PM, Sivasubramani S <sivasubramani...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Peter,

I too had a discussion with my colleagues about LaTex and MS Word. I could not convince those who are using Word and Power point.

Don't try. If they want to use a synchronous typographic interface, it's because it's familiar to them, and nothing on earth will persuade them to leave the nest.
 

I am being told that why are you taking pain in using Latex since everything is possible in word itself.

Don't even try to answer. They cannot see the productivity gain, and will not like having it pointed out to them.

Almost everything is possible in Word, but sometimes it takes a lot of pain and time.
 

However, i dont agree with them after enjoying Latex.
How to justify that Latex is superior than word and power point?

It depends what you mean by "superior". LaTeX produces better typeset output, and it can be automated much more easily than Word, but the fact that after 25 years there is no synchronous typographic interface of the same quality as Word is disappointing.

Perhaps show them BaKoMaTeX? Don't show them LyX: the ERT will break them up :-)

The point about Word users is that their documents are not important in the long term, either to them or to their employer. It's not worth it to change to LaTeX (or XML, or anything else) — if it was, they would already have made the change.

///Peter

[Gildas Cotomale]

>> I too had a discussion with my colleagues about LaTex and MS Word. I could
>> not convince those who are using Word and Power point.
>
> Don't try. If they want to use a synchronous typographic interface, it's
> because it's familiar to them, and nothing on earth will persuade them to
> leave the nest.
>

Peter, you point it out some things interesting...
First: the power of habits and why things are difficult to change.
most human feel comfortable with familiar stuff even if it's a pain
(something August Dvorak lean)
Second (related): word processors (like Word) and text-typography
processors (like *TeX) use different "approaches". The first are
wysiwy-(get and try to do it by yourself) way whereas the other let
you describe/say what you mean and an automated program will give you
the result according to strict rules you don't have to care about
yourself. The second case users are often trained or involved in
semantic...

>>
>> I am being told that why are you taking pain in using Latex since
>> everything is possible in word itself.
>
> Don't even try to answer. They cannot see the productivity gain, and will
> not like having it pointed out to them.
>
> Almost everything is possible in Word, but sometimes it takes a lot of pain
> and time.
>
>>
>> However, i dont agree with them after enjoying Latex.
>> How to justify that Latex is superior than word and power point?
>
> It depends what you mean by "superior". LaTeX produces better typeset
> output, and it can be automated much more easily than Word, but the fact
> that after 25 years there is no synchronous typographic interface of the
> same quality as Word is disappointing.
>

Maybe because most of us (and specially all capable people) are not
fan of those kind of interfaces ? :-) XML addicts that prefer those
kind of interface for office works are OpenOffice-likes users... But
how many TeXers use and improve rare (commercial) attempts ?

> Perhaps show them BaKoMaTeX? Don't show them LyX: the ERT will break them up
> :-)
>

LyX is still a toy for be-semantic people ; it's closer to some XML
visual editors, it's not a true word-processor like (but it may be
helpful and very useful when switching to LaTeX)

> The point about Word users is that their documents are not important in the
> long term, either to them or to their employer. It's not worth it to change
> to LaTeX (or XML, or anything else) — if it was, they would already have
> made the change.
>

Of course, Word here is an instance of "closed formats" : they can
only serve for temporary/ephemera production... Or their users become
slaves of some companies like those oblige to always follow MS in
order to keep reading their documents :-S

[Peter Flynn]

On Sat, Oct 15, 2011 at 8:27 AM, Gildas Cotomale <gildas....@gmail.com> wrote:

First: the power of habits and why things are difficult to change.
most human feel comfortable with familiar stuff even if it's a pain
(something August Dvorak lean)

This is why any new interface (to LaTeX, XML, or anything else) probably needs to look like Word.
 

Second (related): word processors (like Word) and text-typography
processors (like *TeX) use different "approaches". The first are
wysiwy-(get and try to do it by yourself) way whereas the other let
you describe/say what you mean and an automated program will give you
the result according to strict rules you don't have to care about
yourself. The second case users are often trained or involved in
semantic...

My take is that they shouldn't have to be, if the interface is designed to interpret the keystrokes and mouseclicks better. I will be testing some changes as part of my research shortly.
 

Maybe because most of us (and specially all capable people) are not
fan of those kind of interfaces ? :-)

I think we only prefer the raw-markup approach because the WYSIWYG interfaces don't do the job properly.
 

XML addicts that prefer those
kind of interface for office works are OpenOffice-likes users... But
how many TeXers use and improve rare (commercial) attempts ?

That's expensive, either in time or money. If you need to use XML (for whataver reason), then you have to use an XML editor (of some kind). Unfortunately, just because OO and Word save in XML doesn't make them "XML editors". All they represent is the appearance on the screen, unless you take the trouble to use Named Styles.
 

LyX is still a toy for be-semantic people ; it's closer to some XML

visual editors, it's not a true word-processor like (but it may be
helpful and very useful when switching to LaTeX)

It's very good, but the interface needs some serious de-cluttering, and it needs to start behaving like a wordprocessor while interpreting like a structured editor.
 

Of course, Word here is an instance of "closed formats" : they can

only serve for temporary/ephemera production... Or their users become
slaves of some companies like those oblige to always follow MS in
order to keep reading their documents :-S

Word (well, the OOXML format) is open, but not everything that the Word program does is open to inspection. The problem with making an interface is that you either need to restrict yourself to the most common requirements (so that they can be handled robustly), or you have to allow for every possible thing the user wants, and handles none of them well.

///Peter

[askaholik]

thank you everybody for the nice feedbacks I've got from you!

Gildas, yes, I can use multiple files and compile them separately. The
main problem is with the images, and some template files that the
journal is providing.
Thankyou "Sivasubramani S" and Peter for your important contribution.

So far, I found very interesting google docs and LaTeX, in particular
the online converter: docs.latexlab.org
I'll try to put my LaTeX files as easy doc files, so MS-WORD people
might find easier to modify.
I'll let you know the result of this "experiment". Any comment is -
obviously- more then welcome.

[e-letter]

Gildas Cotomale wrote:

> An example. As teacher, my collegua and I have to prepare paper
> quizzes and their results. Guess what? They have to maintain two
> versoin (two times work) while I use a single .tex file (one
> compiilaton without the results, a parameter to change and another
> compilation with the results,.. Finaly one is trying to mimic that
> with Access + VBA stuffs)
>

Off-topic, but could you please explain the parameter to allow for
conditional compilation; thanks.

[Russell Friesenhahn]

Gildas,

Not off-topic!  Would you please provide an example of this?  My fiancee is a teacher and may find this useful.

Thanks,
Russell

[r]

On Oct 14, 8:06 am, askaholik <askaho...@gmail.com> wrote:
> ...is there is such a thing? it can be ever possible?
> I'm working with other 5 people on the same document (paper), and we
> are debating whether it is good to use Word or LaTeX. I'm going for
> LaTeX, but there are other people that are *strongly* pushing for
> Word.
>

I use a bibtex database as justification to prevent personal usage of m
$word

> We all agreed that:

> 2) With word, we can just send by email the updated file to all the
> people, while with latex sources we need to share the whole directory,
> which is not practical. Few of them don't have any IT background, and
> I would like to keep things as easy as possible. We already discarded
> the option of using pdf files, and let the no-LaTeX people just
> commenting the pdf.
>

Perhaps you could send a pdf to view and the latex source for
particular content within the plain-text e-mail message. So if
collaboration is required for content in chapter 1, this file would be
sent in the body of the message (e.g. the bottom). Recipients are
asked to review the pdf and make changes to the source in the e-mail
text body. Then the command terminal utility 'diff' is used to review
changes. You would become a de facto editor, but have control over
final document style. Some recipients may become intrigued that plain
text commands in an e-mail message can be used to create high quality
pdf documents...

[Gildas Cotomale]

2011/10/24 e-letter :

> Gildas Cotomale wrote:
>
>> An example. As teacher, my collegua and I have to prepare paper
>> quizzes and their results. Guess what? They have to maintain two
>> versoin (two times work) while I use a single .tex file (one
>> compiilaton without the results, a parameter to change and another
>> compilation with the results,.. Finaly one is trying to mimic that
>> with Access + VBA stuffs)
>>
> Off-topic, but could you please explain the parameter to allow for
> conditional compilation; thanks.
>

i seached CTAN for exams and quizzes and found the exam class
<http://www-math.mit.edu/~psh/#ExamCls>
<http://www.ctan.org/tex-archive/macros/latex/contrib/exam>

\documentclass[a4paper,11pt]{exam} %
http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/LaTeX/Teacher%27s_Corner
%\usepackage...

%# exam parameters
%## answers
\printanswers % If you want to print answers (class option: answers),
i.e. shows "solution/solutionorlines/solutionordottedlines"
environments, or emphasis CorrectChoice commands.
%\noprintanswers % If you don't want to print answers
%## scores
%\addpoints % if you want to count the points
\noaddpoints % if you don't want to count the points
%# exam formating
%## questions
\qformat{\textbf{Question \thequestion}\quad(\thepoints)\hfill} %
%\qformat{Question \thequestion\dotfill \emph{\totalpoints\ points}} %
%\qformat{Question \thequestion: \thequestiontitle\dotfill\thepoints}
% une \titledquestion{some title}[points] instead of \question[points]
%## answers
%### long texts : environments "solution/solutionorlines/solutionordottedlines"
\framedsolutions % solution environment uses \fbox (defaut).
%\shadedsolutions % Solution environment uses \colorbox (requiers
"color" package) with gray background.
%\definecolor{SolutionColor}{rgb}{0.8,0.9,1} % light blue
\renewcommand{\solutiontitle}{\noindent\textbf{Solution:}\par\noindent}
% Changes the title of the solution environment
%### short texts : commands CorrectChoice/correctchoice/answerline
\CorrectChoiceEmphasis{\bfseries} % defaut
%\CorrectChoiceEmphasis{\color{red}} % with color package
%\CorrectChoiceEmphasis{\color{red}\bfseries} % with color package
%## points
%### apparence of the command \half
%\usehorizontalhalf % \frac{1}{2}
%\useslantedhalf % (defaut)
%### surrounding the points
%\bracketedpoints % brackets instead of parenthesis;
\nobracketedpoints will back to defaut
%\boxedpoints % enclosed in boxes instead of parenthesis;
\noboxedpoints will returns to defaut
%### where the points are printed
%\pointsinmargin % to print the points in the left margin;
\nopointsinmargin will revert
%\pointsinrightmargin % to print the points in the right margin;
\nopointsinrightmargin will revert
%### total points formating
%\totalformat{Question \thequestion: \totalpoints} %
%\totalformat{\fbox{Total: \totalpoints}} %
%### bonus total points formating
%\bonustotalformat{Question \thequestion: \totalbonuspoints} %
%\bonustotalformat{\fbox{Total: \totalbonuspoints}} %
%## others

\begin{document}
...
\end{document}

That's from my document template (i removed packages calls to short
the message)
When my document is ready, i compile a first pdf file with
\noprintanswers then a second one with \printanswers

2011/10/25 Russell Friesenhahn :

> Gildas,
>
> Not off-topic!  Would you please provide an example of this?  My fiancee is
> a teacher and may find this useful.
>
> Thanks,
> Russell
>

She may also take a loot at probsoln or mathexm and many others i haven't try :)

[Gildas Cotomale]

2011/10/25 r :

>
>
> On Oct 14, 8:06 am, askaholik <askaho...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> ...is there is such a thing? it can be ever possible?
>> I'm working with other 5 people on the same document (paper), and we
>> are debating whether it is good to use Word or LaTeX. I'm going for
>> LaTeX, but there are other people that are *strongly* pushing for
>> Word.
>>
>
> I use a bibtex database as justification to prevent personal usage of m
> $word
>

;D That's because they don't know they can use bibtex with m$word and
likes... (google for Bibtex4Word or JabTex; and even BibTex's page
<http://www.bibtex.org/Using/> has a note for word users...)

>> We all agreed that:
>> 2) With word, we can just send by email the updated file to all the
>> people, while with latex sources we need to share the whole directory,
>> which is not practical. Few of them don't have any IT background, and
>> I would like to keep things as easy as possible. We already discarded
>> the option of using pdf files, and let the no-LaTeX people just
>> commenting the pdf.
>>
>
> Perhaps you could send a pdf to view and the latex source for
> particular content within the plain-text e-mail message. So if
> collaboration is required for content in chapter 1, this file would be
> sent in the body of the message (e.g. the bottom). Recipients are
> asked to review the pdf and make changes to the source in the e-mail
> text body. Then the command terminal utility 'diff' is used to review
> changes. You would become a de facto editor, but have control over
> final document style. Some recipients may become intrigued that plain
> text commands in an e-mail message can be used to create high quality
> pdf documents...
>

Very good... People will have less resistance to use mail than a text
editor, but some of them will put HTML inside the messages... Anyway,
they will adhere if they are not told they are using LaTeX (they have
been told it's difficult or evil)

[jorge garcia]

Hi askaholik

I work with latex and to work in the same document I used to keep in  one directory provided by DropBox. So when I go to another Pc I can get the same files and can share with other people.
The only problem that I found it is to have in both Pcs the same latex packages, but this is easy to fix!

Hope this help you

GoodBye!

2011/10/14 askaholik <aska...@gmail.com>

[Paul Johnson]

On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 4:40 PM, e-letter <inp...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Gildas Cotomale wrote:
>

>>
> Off-topic, but could you please explain the parameter to allow for
> conditional compilation; thanks.
>

I use LyX to work with LaTeX documents. LyX recently introduced the
term "branch" to describe a conditionally included category of text,
like "answers" to test questions an so forth. You can create several
branches in a document, and activate or de-activate them at will.

In raw LaTex, that can be done with the ifthen package, but I have
never fiddled with it very much. Actually, I tried it and could not
make it work, which I gather is a common first-timer experience.

But you can Google "LaTeX ifthen" and see plenty of examples, such as

http://www.devdaily.com/blog/post/latex/two-simple-examples-using-latex-ifthen-package

You will also see that the "ifthen" package is becoming a bit old, and
newer support is in the etoolbox package.

pj

--
Paul E. Johnson
Professor, Political Science
1541 Lilac Lane, Room 504
University of Kansas

[Peter Flynn]

On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 7:14 AM, Paul Johnson <paulj...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 4:40 PM, e-letter <inp...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Gildas Cotomale wrote:
>>

> Off-topic, but could you please explain the parameter to allow for
> conditional compilation; thanks.
>

I use LyX to work with LaTeX documents. LyX recently introduced the
term "branch" to describe a conditionally included category of text,
like "answers" to test questions an so forth. You can create several
branches in a document, and activate or de-activate them at will.

In raw LaTex, that can be done with the ifthen package, but I have
never fiddled with it very much. Actually, I tried it and could not
make it work, which I gather is a common first-timer experience.

The standard (plain TeX, but works fine in LaTeX) way to do this is to define a new \if of your own choosing, eg

\newif\ifsomething
...
\ifsomething

arbitrary amount of LaTeX code

\else

arbitrary amount of LaTeX code

\fi

You make up the something, and you can then use \somethingtrue or \somethingfalse to set the condition one way or the other.

The ifthen package gives you the command

\ifthenelse{condition}{do this when true}{do this when false}

The advantage of ifthen's condition statements is that they provide a robust way to test values for equality and inequality as well as test numeric values for equals, less-than, and greater-than, all of which can be tricky in plain TeX.

I believe (but I would need to check) that the ifthen method consumes more resources than the plain TeX method if the true and false actions are complex, because LaTeX has to read all the way to the final closing curly brace before it can even start processing the phrase, whereas with the plain TeX method, it can just skip forward to the \else or \fi accordingly as the test evaluates true or false.

///Peter

[Gildas Cotomale]

> I use LyX to work with LaTeX documents. LyX recently introduced the
> term "branch" to describe a conditionally included category of text,
> like "answers" to test questions an so forth. You can create several
> branches in a document, and activate or de-activate them at will.
>

I didn't know that. I should put a serious try to LyX :)

> In raw LaTex, that can be done with the ifthen package, but I have
> never fiddled with it very much. Actually, I tried it and could not
> make it work, which I gather is a common first-timer experience.
>

I use the ifthen package too, but only for settings of packages i may
comment later (so i don't have to worry about those additional lines)
or my correspondent may not have, or tweaking some other in some
particular ways according to the compilation (specially PDF stuff
depending on the use of latex or pdflatex command)

> But you can Google "LaTeX ifthen" and see plenty of examples, such as
>
> http://www.devdaily.com/blog/post/latex/two-simple-examples-using-latex-ifthen-package
>
> You will also see that the "ifthen" package is becoming a bit old, and
> newer support is in the etoolbox package.
>

I didn't know this new one either.
In TeXing world, we're always learning :)

[Ole Peter Smith]

LuX is the WYSIWYG of LaTeX - can never become right, unless you are WYSIWYG. And, if you are, why use LaTeX???

0le

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "LaTeX Users Group" group.
To post to this group, send email to latexus...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to latexusersgro...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/latexusersgroup?hl=en.

--
                                            /////
                                         ( O O )
=================oOO==(_)==OOo=================
      Humildadade, Ética e Sabedoria nunca subtraiam!
Pensar livremente é ser consciente dos seus paradigmas - 0le
                                .oooO   Oooo.
==================(     )=(     )=====================
                                     \  (     )  /
                                      \_)   (_/
===============================================
                        Ole Peter Smith, IME, UFG
    http://www.mat.ufg.br/docentes/olepeter - ole at mat.ufg.br
===============================================
                   Life sure is a Mystery to be Lived
                      Not a Problem to be Solved
===============================================