new modules default to show "on all pages"
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Richard
Jun 15, 2012, 4:10:46 PM6/15/12
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I think a better default would be "no pages" much like the default is "unpublished" rather than "published".
Cons: 1 extra click
Pros: fewer incidents where a misplaced or broken module gets published on every page.
Any opinions?
Cons: 1 extra click
Pros: fewer incidents where a misplaced or broken module gets published on every page.
Any opinions?
Nick Savov
Jun 15, 2012, 4:23:33 PM6/15/12
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Agreed.
The CMS Google Group might a better place to post this though. Or you
could submit a patch for Joomla 3.0 and get it for 3.0's launch :)
Kind regards,
Nick
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The CMS Google Group might a better place to post this though. Or you
could submit a patch for Joomla 3.0 and get it for 3.0's launch :)
Kind regards,
Nick
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Matt Thomas
Jun 15, 2012, 5:37:37 PM6/15/12
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I very much disagree. Most modules are generally assigned to all pages, or a variation of that, and not often to no pages. In my opinion this would be adding many extra clicks to resolve human error.
Best,
Matt
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Nick Savov
Jun 15, 2012, 5:45:22 PM6/15/12
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Hi Matt,
It's two extra clicks.
Also, if it's a variation, having it set to "on all pages" as the default
would still result in two extra clicks.
Kind regards,
Nick
It's two extra clicks.
Also, if it's a variation, having it set to "on all pages" as the default
would still result in two extra clicks.
Kind regards,
Nick
brian teeman
Jun 15, 2012, 5:49:26 PM6/15/12
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Def agree with Matt
Some modules do that already and the first thing people say is my module is published but I cant see it
This is a change for no purpose
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Nick Savov
Jun 15, 2012, 5:54:00 PM6/15/12
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"This is a change for no purpose".
Please read the topic starter's "Pro".
Kind regards,
Nick
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Please read the topic starter's "Pro".
Kind regards,
Nick
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brian teeman
Jun 15, 2012, 6:18:46 PM6/15/12
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I read it
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Matt Thomas
Jun 15, 2012, 6:20:12 PM6/15/12
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I don't see how the pro outweighs the con. Knowing my own personal workflow, and that of many others, this would certainly add numerous extra clicks per site with very little potential benefit.
Best,
Matt
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Nick Savov
Jun 15, 2012, 7:03:26 PM6/15/12
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Either approach is valid, in my opinion.
One defaults to saves a few extra clicks.
The other defaults to save a few extra human errors.
By the way, if the goal is save a few extra clicks, the default should be
"On all pages except those selected" with no menu items selected, as that
would (from my estimations) save the most clicks on average.
Kind regards,
Nick
One defaults to saves a few extra clicks.
The other defaults to save a few extra human errors.
By the way, if the goal is save a few extra clicks, the default should be
"On all pages except those selected" with no menu items selected, as that
would (from my estimations) save the most clicks on average.
Kind regards,
Nick
Mark Dexter
Jun 15, 2012, 7:05:14 PM6/15/12
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If there is no general agreement, I think the status quo (whatever
that is) should probably prevail. Mark
that is) should probably prevail. Mark
brian teeman
Jun 15, 2012, 7:31:16 PM6/15/12
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As best practice dictates that you always test the new module immediately on installation then having it on no pages by default serves no purpose and this change will lead to gazillions of where is my module enquiries
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Nick Savov
Jun 16, 2012, 3:42:37 AM6/16/12
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Agreed.
Nick Savov
Jun 16, 2012, 3:48:14 AM6/16/12
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Best practice doesn't dictate that you always test the new module on *all*
pages though. In fact, that's bad practice.
Kind regards,
Nick
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pages though. In fact, that's bad practice.
Kind regards,
Nick
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Nick Savov
Jun 16, 2012, 3:55:19 AM6/16/12
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p.s. I should have also mentioned, "point noted" :)
p.s.s. Your observation got me thinking. Why do we even have the "No
pages" assignment?
p.s.s. Your observation got me thinking. Why do we even have the "No
pages" assignment?
Rouven Weßling
Jun 16, 2012, 4:56:58 AM6/16/12
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p.s.s. Your observation got me thinking. Why do we even have the "No
pages" assignment?
Loadmodule plug-in
Best Regards
Rouven
elin
Jun 16, 2012, 8:49:52 PM6/16/12
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Also the famous hidden menu for structuring your urls.
To me one of the most annoying "features" of 2.5 is that it doesn't create a menu module when a new menu is created. Explaining the need for that extra step is just embarrassing.
At least make it an option when creating a menu.
Elin
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joomlagate
Jun 17, 2012, 6:10:02 PM6/17/12
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Hi, all,
I strongly suggest to allow new module display on “all pages” by default. Many times I forgot to choose the pages then I can not see my published module, this confused me a lot! Very bad design!
If someone in the Joomla core team disagree with me and refuse to change this, then, could you please kindly add an option in the “Options” of module manager component so that I can “choose” myself to allow this feature?
Thanks.
Joomlagate
发件人: joomla-de...@googlegroups.com [mailto:joomla-de...@googlegroups.com] 代表 Richard
发送时间: 2012年6月16日 4:11
收件人: joomla-de...@googlegroups.com
主题: [jgen] new modules default to show "on all pages"
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Richard
Jun 18, 2012, 11:59:25 AM6/18/12
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> Most modules are generally assigned to all pages...
Are you speaking from personal experience or do you have some sort of statistic? I'm asking because that's not my experience at all. We have over 300 modules and only a few of them are displayed on every page. I don't think either of us should expect that our personal experiences are representative.
Are you speaking from personal experience or do you have some sort of statistic? I'm asking because that's not my experience at all. We have over 300 modules and only a few of them are displayed on every page. I don't think either of us should expect that our personal experiences are representative.
Richard
Jun 18, 2012, 12:04:59 PM6/18/12
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> Some modules do that already and the first thing people say is my module is published but I cant see it...
If that's your only concern, rather than allow the possibility for a user error to take down an entire website, it would be more reasonable to just warn the user.
"Warning: This module hasn't been assigned to any pages and won't be visible until it has.
[Never Warn Me Again] [OK]"
If that's your only concern, rather than allow the possibility for a user error to take down an entire website, it would be more reasonable to just warn the user.
"Warning: This module hasn't been assigned to any pages and won't be visible until it has.
[Never Warn Me Again] [OK]"
Richard
Jun 21, 2012, 5:12:10 PM6/21/12
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NOTE: The following quotes were made in another thread but they belong here so I'm responding here.
@Brian
@Brian
I would be very against this being a configurable option as it would mean that the default expected behaviour woud not be the same on all sites and would create problems with documentation (both on joomla and extensions).
As someone already pointed out, some modules already do this so there is no universal default expected behavior. A single line of documentation is all that's needed. Something along the lines of "Make sure the module is assigned to 'all pages' or whatever pages you want the module displayed on. I don't see what problems could be created that you're talking about.
@Keith
As a community, we shouldn’t ever say that something shouldn’t be changed because ‘it’s always been done like that’.
I agree with you. If the community is split over something that could be added as a configuration setting, that seems the best route to satisfy everyone.
elin
Jun 21, 2012, 5:31:59 PM6/21/12
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First, there is no core team just all of us.
No we have no statistics, but I'm reasonable sure 300 is in the long tail of numbers of modules.
The only thing is to do some usability testing. Take a group of untrained joomla users and tell them to add a module to their site. Have them talk through their thinking. They are the audience that the default settings are for.
I have for a long time wished for more default options in the module manager. for example: show titles (I almost never want titles) , state, and position and a default page assignment could certainly be one of those. It would be great if someone might take up the task of working with Kyle to improve the module manager's usability by adding that (and probably some other features). I'd rather we think about it systematically than just start adding more and more options with no real plan.
Elin
Elin
Hi, all,
I strongly suggest to allow new module display on “all pages” by default. Many times I forgot to choose the pages then I can not see my published module, this confused me a lot! Very bad design!
If someone in the Joomla core team disagree with me and refuse to change this, then, could you please kindly add an option in the “Options” of module manager component so that I can “choose” myself to allow this feature?
Thanks.
Joomlagate
发件人: joomla-dev-general@googlegroups.com [mailto:joomla-dev-general@googlegroups.com] 代表 Richard
发送时间: 2012年6月16日 4:11
收件人: joomla-dev-general@googlegroups.com
主题: [jgen] new modules default to show "on all pages"
I think a better default would be "no pages" much like the default is "unpublished" rather than "published".
Cons: 1 extra click
Pros: fewer incidents where a misplaced or broken module gets published on every page.
Any opinions?
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Joomlagate China
Aug 12, 2012, 3:31:30 AM8/12/12
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>
> Cons: 1 extra click
>
Only one extra click ? No, No, No! There is also one EXTRA scroll of page !
Did you noticed that the "Menu Assignment" option is not on the "first
screen"? This means, for any module, if you do not scroll the page,
you will NOT see the "menu assignment" option ! No matter the module
has a long description or not, that option is OUTSIDE the first
screen, and you need one extra scroll to see it!
What a stupid idea of assigning any module to "no pages" by default !
I tried to avoid being rude when discussing tech topics, but I can not
deny this feeling that this idea if really very stupid !
If the developer who had decided this default option really love such
an arrangement, could you please just add a new option to the "Module
Manager" options that the user can choose "assign module to all pages
by default" ?
Thanks.
> Cons: 1 extra click
>
Only one extra click ? No, No, No! There is also one EXTRA scroll of page !
Did you noticed that the "Menu Assignment" option is not on the "first
screen"? This means, for any module, if you do not scroll the page,
you will NOT see the "menu assignment" option ! No matter the module
has a long description or not, that option is OUTSIDE the first
screen, and you need one extra scroll to see it!
What a stupid idea of assigning any module to "no pages" by default !
I tried to avoid being rude when discussing tech topics, but I can not
deny this feeling that this idea if really very stupid !
If the developer who had decided this default option really love such
an arrangement, could you please just add a new option to the "Module
Manager" options that the user can choose "assign module to all pages
by default" ?
Thanks.
Nick Savov
Aug 12, 2012, 11:55:53 AM8/12/12
to joomla-de...@googlegroups.com
Careful with your language! Using "stupid" in reference to something that
is not stupid demonstrates a level of arrogance and rudeness that will not
be tolerated. This is especially true concerning the manner in which you
said it. Please be more courteous in the future.
Kind regards,
Nick
is not stupid demonstrates a level of arrogance and rudeness that will not
be tolerated. This is especially true concerning the manner in which you
said it. Please be more courteous in the future.
Kind regards,
Nick
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joomlagate
Aug 13, 2012, 12:30:28 AM8/13/12
to joomla-de...@googlegroups.com
Hi, Nick,
Sorry for my bad words. But please focus on the topic itself, do not focus
on my bad temper.
This time , I will say it softly and with smile: "Setting new modules show
on no page by default " is a f**king STUPID idea!
Well, do not be mad with my opinion, I am not blame you, nick, I am blaming
the guy who coded that feature.
Someone said that "there is no core team", well , well, what a clever
structure, because if there is no core team, then, when something goes wrong
or someone complains about a stupid feature design, nobody will take the
responsibility, and nobody will take action to correct that error.
This topic had been discussed for a while, did you see anybody claim that he
is responsible to change that option? Even nobody claimed that he will NOT
change that feature because he is the guy who in charge of that feature.
Very funny, right? If nothing will change, then why we discuss here?
Again, nick, please do not focus on my bad words, I can not find a good word
for this default setting!
If anybody else want to criticize me again, please, save your time, just
vote on this topic : Do you like or dislike this default setting? And try to
ask someone else: why you still have not taken any action?
So, reply this post with "Yes/No" or "Agree/Disagree", instead of teaching
me how to be polite. If I break the rule of this group, the admin can kick
me out; but if I had said something correct, even I used some impolite
words, please, take action to do the right things!
Who the hell is responsible for this default setting? Can't you see so many
people do want to change that?
My opinion is: let the user choose what should be the default settings, that
is to say, there should be such an option in the "Options" page of the
Module Manager component, where the user can choose "show on no page" or
"show on all page" as the default setting.
Thanks.
Joomlagate
http://www.joomlagate.com/
-----邮件原件-----
发件人: joomla-de...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:joomla-de...@googlegroups.com] 代表 Nick Savov
发送时间: 2012年8月12日 23:56
收件人: joomla-de...@googlegroups.com
主题: Re: [jgen] new modules default to show "on all pages"
Sorry for my bad words. But please focus on the topic itself, do not focus
on my bad temper.
This time , I will say it softly and with smile: "Setting new modules show
on no page by default " is a f**king STUPID idea!
Well, do not be mad with my opinion, I am not blame you, nick, I am blaming
the guy who coded that feature.
Someone said that "there is no core team", well , well, what a clever
structure, because if there is no core team, then, when something goes wrong
or someone complains about a stupid feature design, nobody will take the
responsibility, and nobody will take action to correct that error.
This topic had been discussed for a while, did you see anybody claim that he
is responsible to change that option? Even nobody claimed that he will NOT
change that feature because he is the guy who in charge of that feature.
Very funny, right? If nothing will change, then why we discuss here?
Again, nick, please do not focus on my bad words, I can not find a good word
for this default setting!
If anybody else want to criticize me again, please, save your time, just
vote on this topic : Do you like or dislike this default setting? And try to
ask someone else: why you still have not taken any action?
So, reply this post with "Yes/No" or "Agree/Disagree", instead of teaching
me how to be polite. If I break the rule of this group, the admin can kick
me out; but if I had said something correct, even I used some impolite
words, please, take action to do the right things!
Who the hell is responsible for this default setting? Can't you see so many
people do want to change that?
My opinion is: let the user choose what should be the default settings, that
is to say, there should be such an option in the "Options" page of the
Module Manager component, where the user can choose "show on no page" or
"show on all page" as the default setting.
Thanks.
Joomlagate
http://www.joomlagate.com/
-----邮件原件-----
发件人: joomla-de...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:joomla-de...@googlegroups.com] 代表 Nick Savov
发送时间: 2012年8月12日 23:56
收件人: joomla-de...@googlegroups.com
主题: Re: [jgen] new modules default to show "on all pages"
Adam Rifat
Aug 13, 2012, 6:13:16 AM8/13/12
to joomlagate, joomla-de...@googlegroups.com
I actually quite like it (agree) as currently I have to go through and take the module off all the pages I don't want it to appear on. And then when I create a new menu item I have to remember to go and assign the module to it if I want.
So, at least this way I can go through and choose the pages I want it to appear on (as opposed to taking it off the pages I don't it to appear).
But on balance either way it is an irritation and probably comes down to personal preference and or your exact usage...
Cheers,
Adam
elin
Aug 13, 2012, 9:46:32 PM8/13/12
to joomla-de...@googlegroups.com, joomlagate, Adam Rifat
Voting by developers is not particularly useful when it comes to usability research. I gave you a suggestion about how to collect appropriate and useful data, now it is your responsibility to do so if it is something you care about. You can also put a patch in the feature tracker with the change and hopefully some data you have collected and see what people think. YOU have responsibility to do the work to make a change you want to make a case for no one else. As I suggested, the best approach is probably instead of changing the user experience for milllions of users that you add a parameter to the configuration for com_modules allowing you to set the default to something different. Again, I suggest also that you get with the JUX group and see what they think. YOU have to take responsibility for a change you want and for making it work without breaking several million websites.
Elin
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