What we would like to see in Joomla 4?

[Todor Iliev]

Hi friends,

I am starting this discussion for everyone who would like to share his vision about Joomla 4.

Let we say what we would like to see in next major release.

I read Brian's and Nicholas' posts. I watched the presentations of Chris and Marcos. The plans sound great and I like the ideas of Brian and Nicholas.

Let me share my vision and ideas with you.

Joomla! CMS

I would like to see lighter and easier for extending content management system. I mean, fewer core extensions and much more free third-party extensions.

You have to provide a compatibility layer because you will have to remove half of the current extensions in JED again. Most extensions for Joomla 3 will have to work on Joomla 4.

The system has to work good enough on top five platforms as a service. It has to be easier for scaling.

I would like to see to publish releases with new features more frequently.

The focus should be much more on the CMS and user experience than the framework. It should be easier for end users to start using the CMS. I would like to see more help pages, tips and tricks in the administration.

It will be great if Joomla 4 be released in 2016.

Joomla! Framework

You should remove /libraries/legacy. You can merge /libraries/joomla and /libraries/cms folders. It will be better to merge them with Joomla! Framework(Platform).

The framework should provide code only needed for Joomla CMS. You can remove the following packages - facebook-api, twitter-api, linkedin-api, google-api, openstreetmap-api.

It will be better to focus on the framework as part of Joomla CMS than as a competitor of Zend, Laravel or Symfony. Do not lose time and energy to be their competitor.

You can replace some libraries with other ones.

The libraries oauth1, oauth2, datetime, http, log can be replaced with League/oauth1-client, League/oauth2-client, Carbon, Guzzle PHP HTTP, Monolog.

Composer

I would like to be possible to install third-party libraries with my extensions. I think about an extension and API (part of the framework). It could be Joomla Dependency Manager that will be able to manage packages just like Composer.

The installer will use the API to provide similar functionality to the developers. We will be able to describe dependencies in the manifest file, and the system will do the job when install/upgrade and extension.

It could be one of the ideas for Google Summer of Code 2016.

Templates

I would like Joomla 4 to be based on Twitter Bootstrap 4.

Most template providers and developers switched to Bootstrap 3 long time ago. Both are 90% compatible each other.

Furthermore, there are tons of good third-party scripts for Bootstrap, which will help us to make Joomla user-friendly and to provide better user experience easily.

Developer Tools

It will be great if we provide some developer tools. I think about the following ones:

• Dependency manager - I mentioned it earlier. It will manage libraries installed by third-party extensions.
• Distribution manager - it could be a component that will create distributions by one click. Then distributions should be published on Joomla servers (distributions.joomla.com)
• Translation manager - It could be a component that will help users to translate their language files. It can provide machine translation from Microsoft Translator and Google Translator. The translations can be contributed and stored on Joomla servers (translations.joomla.com).

Conclusion

I would like Joomla 4 to be scalable, easy for extending and compatible with Joomla 3 extensions/templates.

It has to provide great user experience (thanks to Bootstrap 4) and useful developer tools.

[Michael Babker]

Good luck having this discussion...

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[Izhar Aazmi]

Good luck having this discussion...

Doesn't sound like what it says ;-)

[ssnobben]

So is there not any comments, guidelines or discussions to this topic to Todor and all others about the status of what is going on with J 4? or is there some hidden discussions club in any hidden invited only channel?

Where should this be discussed if not here? or should all developers have their private own blog post for this important discussions/feedback?

[Niv Froehlich]

@ssnobben

Thanks, Stephan for speaking out on that.  I'd love if we as a community could drop the the 'defeatism and sarcasm' and get back to 'positive, encouraging, guiding, productive...' etc.

Cheers,

N

On Sun, Jan 17, 2016 at 11:09 AM, ssnobben <ssno...@hotmail.com> wrote:

So is there not any comments, guidelines or discussions to this topic to Todor and all others about the status of what is going on with J 4? or is there some hidden discussions club in any hidden invited only channel?

Where should this be discussed if not here? or should all developers have their private own blog post for this important discussions/feedback?

--

[Michael Babker]

The J4 group is hell bound and determined to do their own thing according to https://volunteers.joomla.org/working-groups/joomla-4-architecture#reports which is pretty much the exact opposite of what most folks suggest.  So I'll just echo my first post here, "Good luck having this discussion..."

[Niels Braczek]

I've tried to put everything together in a central place:

https://github.com/joomla-projects/joomla-pythagoras/wiki

Discussion is ment to happen using the issues section of that repository.

If you want to contribute more than a few comments - both is very
welcome - you should ask the team leader, Marco Dings, for an invitation
into the J4 Working Group Glip channel, which we use for internal
communication.

Regards,
Niels

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[Niv Froehlich]

@ Michael - thanks for the link

@ Todor

Thanks for sharing your ideas.  The best way to contribute to the J4 vision and architecture is

- visit the Joomla! Volunteers Portals

- click the 'Get Involved' link

(Note that there is currently no "Group Leader" listed - I would suggest contacting Marco Dings, who is listed as the Facilitator, J4WG Liason)

Cheers,

N

[ssnobben]

Thanks Niels this is a very good start and this should also be posted on J O O M L A. O R G asap (Developer News...,..) and maybe a splash page so people see that there is an active Joomla community that is not dead.

Developers and all other people should not have thousands channels to grasp a l l whats going on in the Joomla world..especially this very very important evolution of Joomla future or not.

[Michael Babker]

1) You assume every visitor to Joomla's homepage cares about community happenings, development activity, and whatnot.  How many just want the last release's CHANGELOG and the downloads?

2) It's been moaned publicly by a lot of people (yourself included) there are too many channels and too many sites on .org to maintain.  And you suggest yet another site/page to maintain?  Sorry.  .org should be damn near locked for new stuff as a whole right now until someone gets a real maintenance plan in place.  Too many servers and software installs are not running current versions to suggest adding anything else anywhere for any reason short of a major emergency IMO.  There are vulnerable software installs on the .org network if you know the backend architecture and sadly maintenance is not a priority.

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[Niels Braczek]

Am 18.01.2016 um 11:08 schrieb Michael Babker:

> 2) It's been moaned publicly by a lot of people (yourself included) there
> are too many channels and too many sites on .org to maintain. And you
> suggest yet another site/page to maintain?

Ssnobben just asks for a post, not a site.

[Michael Babker]

He has a knack for asking for splash pages and more posts on the front page than what goes there now.  Blog posts are fine if someone's writing them.  Also need to gauge value, not every single activity in community is front page worthy.  Splash pages aren't any good right now.  Refer back to too many sites issue.  We can't even get the community site off Joomla 1.5 and that blocks the server being upgraded past PHP 5.4.  There's a reason I'm so adamant about people making suggestions about how the sites are run, people want more stuff but don't realize there are 3 dozen software installs all over the place and barely enough resources to manage them all (anyone gotten listed in JRD or the showcase successfully recently?).

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[Hannes Papenberg]

Reading through the Wiki, I'm wondering if you are delusional or want to
kill this project on purpose. Besides the fact that I understand maybe
half of it, everything assumes that we can start with a clean slate and
create something new from the ground up. There are countless reasons why
that would not mean a prosperous Joomla community:

- a 100% break in backwards compatibility will stop everyone from moving
to the new system. See Python 2.7/3.5. They are several magnitudes
larger than us and are unable to get their community together again.
- a 100% break in backwards compatibility wipes out all our extensions
with one swift move. With that, it wipes out all developers that make a
living from Joomla
- a 100% break in backwards compatibility will void the (financial)
investment of all current site owners.
- Creating a new system takes time. Look at the Nooku guys, who worked
on their stuff for 3 years before version 1.0 was released. They didn't
have to include feedback from the community, etc. That was just the
development time. They also worked on that stuff non-stop.
- Implementing this following the rules that we have for commits in
Joomla will take a fuckload longer than that. I've been working on the
routing for the last 6 years, pushing with the crowdfunding for the last
2 years and all that for maybe 2-3 months of actual development work.
- Even with combined effort and pushing all our resources into what is
proposed from that Workinggroup, I estimate it to take 5 years to
implement all that, considering that people loose interest when their
code does not see the light of day soon, with all the complications,
etc. Joomla as a project was near death when it took us close to 3 years
to get from 1.0 to 1.5.

I've said it before and I'll say it again (and I know that I'm not the
only one thinking like that): Joomla 4.0 can not be the new grand
system. Joomla 4.0 can do 3 things: 1. Remove the deprecated code. 2.
Clean up some fuck ups we did in the past (Boostrap 2 instead of 3, the
4 different hashing methods that we have to support right now, etc.) 3.
Provide namespaced, clean MVC classes, which can be pretty easily
swapped with our existing MVC classes and provide a small benefit when
used instead of our current stuff.

Try more and it will die on Featuritis and be forever vaporware.

Regards,
Hannes Papenberg

[Niels Braczek]

Am 18.01.2016 um 13:11 schrieb 'Hannes Papenberg' via Joomla! CMS
Development:

> Besides the fact that I understand maybe half of it,

Don't be afraid to ask.

> everything assumes that we can start with a clean slate and
> create something new from the ground up.

It would be much easier, if we could, but the Working Group as a whole
decided to get there incrementally.

> - a 100% break in backwards compatibility

There will be a few places, where it isn't possible to provide backward
compatibility. The requirement for namespaces is such a place.
It is a explicit goal for Joomla4 to cause as little pain as possible
for updating. That also stands for 3PD, of course.

> Joomla 4.0 can not be the new grand system.

It can. It will.

[Hannes Papenberg]

>> - a 100% break in backwards compatibility
> There will be a few places, where it isn't possible to provide backward
> compatibility. The requirement for namespaces is such a place.
> It is a explicit goal for Joomla4 to cause as little pain as possible
> for updating. That also stands for 3PD, of course.

There is a difference between breaking some BC by cleaning up the stuff
that we marked as deprecated in the last years and breaking everything
at random. Actually, the namespacing does NOT require us to break
everything. While I agree that we should go the namespace route, we can
provide proxy classes so that existing extensions still work. As well as
the old and new MVC classes would have to co-exist for at least the 4.x
lifetime.

>> Joomla 4.0 can not be the new grand system.
> It can. It will.

No, it wont. And it is telling that the only argument that you pick up
is the BC argument.

Hannes

[Niels Braczek]

Am 18.01.2016 um 13:50 schrieb 'Hannes Papenberg' via Joomla! CMS
Development:

> Actually, the namespacing does NOT require us to break
> everything. While I agree that we should go the namespace route, we can
> provide proxy classes so that existing extensions still work.

That's true - and even easier - for everything else, too. The challenge
is to require as few changes to existing extensions as possible.

> As well as
> the old and new MVC classes would have to co-exist for at least the 4.x
> lifetime.

Agree. That's the only reason, why MVC still will be supported, although
it never has been an appropriate approach for web applications.

> And it is telling that the only argument that you pick up
> is the BC argument.

Well, I don't know any details about Nooku's development, so I can't
discuss it. So, bc is the only argument of yours left for me to address.

[Hannes Papenberg]

Ok, since you are ignoring the references to Python, Joomla 1.5 and the
routing proposal from me, I'll make it a direct question:

How will the Joomla 4.0 Working Group release the Joomla 4.0 that you
envision in the next 12 months? How will you prevent, that that takes 60
months?

Looking at the available data, this was kicked off 6 months ago. The
weekly meetings have happened 3 times and 0 (zero) code has been written
for this so far. Looking at the Joomla 4.0 repo, the last commit to that
was 3 months ago.

You guys complain that Joomla is limping behind other CMS out there.
Looking at the current results, we will NOT catch up in any way with
that plan. I've brought up that Joomla 1.5 was delayed. Yes, it was, but
"§$%&/( if Johan didn't invest 24/7/365 into that code and provided code
constantly. You could SEE the code. You could talk about it. You could
see progress. Each. And. Every. Day. 1.5 was delayed because he couldn't
find an end. We are currently sitting here and can't even find a beginning.

Give me a (believable) plan for the development and release of Joomla
4.0 in the next 12 months and I'll shut up. With the normal delays, that
would mean the release of Joomla 4.0 in 24 months, but still. Right now
I see nothing. Time is money.

For all those wondering out there: If we agreed on what I described
earlier, we would actually have progress and be about 30% the way
towards a Joomla 4.0 already, since George and Michael already worked
hard in the Joomla 4.0 repo to just drop the deprecated stuff:
https://github.com/joomla-projects/joomla-pythagoras

Hannes

[Niels Braczek]

Am 18.01.2016 um 14:48 schrieb 'Hannes Papenberg' via Joomla! CMS
Development:

> How will the Joomla 4.0 Working Group release the Joomla 4.0 that you
> envision in the next 12 months? How will you prevent, that that takes 60
> months?

Honestly, I don't know. We're working hard on having something
presentable (an alpha) until JAB this year. That still looks to be feasible.

> Looking at the available data, this was kicked off 6 months ago. The
> weekly meetings have happened 3 times and 0 (zero) code has been written
> for this so far. Looking at the Joomla 4.0 repo, the last commit to that
> was 3 months ago.

A lot of code has been written. The web services project is part of it.
The service layer, that Chris Davenport presented a month ago, is a big
part of it. I'm currently working on an acceptance (system) test
environment, that will help us to ensure maximum compatibility with 3.x.
You can see it in my fork of the pythagoras repo. A lot of framework
packages have been reworked to fit into Joomla!4. So, just because you
don't see anything on the main repo, that does not mean, we're not working.

> You guys complain that Joomla is limping behind other CMS out there.

?? I don't complain.

> Looking at the current results, we will NOT catch up in any way with

> that plan. [...] We are currently sitting here and can't even find a beginning.

We published recordings of sessions about Joomla!4. We have a public
repo with a lot of issues (= tasks) as base for discussions. We have a
wiki, collecting decisions, approaches, and resources. There are
articles in the community magazine. There have been several invitations
to join the working group. So, if you can't find a beginning, I'm
afraid, I can't help you.

> Give me a (believable) plan for the development and release of Joomla
> 4.0 in the next 12 months and I'll shut up. With the normal delays, that
> would mean the release of Joomla 4.0 in 24 months, but still. Right now
> I see nothing. Time is money.

I'm not the team leader, so it is not up to me to make final statements
about the planning. JAB16 is the only milestone, we've set so far.

[Hannes Papenberg]

So you are saying that you have nothing.

From the point where I got kicked of the Joomla 1.6 project (and that
was supposed to be a feature freeze at that moment) it took another 9
months until it was released. Up till then, we all already worked for
several years on the code. The changes that you are proposing are
several times as big as the changes we did in 1.6. Also, at that time we
had several people working practically full-time on Joomla. At least I
did. I don't see that being the case right now.

Yes, you might have plans and some very early PoCs, but if you want I
can show you plans and PoCs for Joomla 4.0 (or 2.0 at that time)
starting from 2009 till today. Plans and writing down good intentions
don't mean squat. Again, I already had code for the routing stuff and,
right now, almost 2 years after the crowdfunding and over 6 years after
I first proposed it, it is still not in Joomla, even though everybody
agrees that it should be.

Quite frankly, if you want to reach for the stars and create a new CMS,
feel free to do so. Go ahead and write that. But don't pull Joomla into
this. Joomla needs goals that are achievable in a reasonable amount of
time with the manpower that we have and that brings added value to our
users with zero or next to zero cost for them. Everything else means
failure for this project. None of those conditions are optional and the
proposal that the J4WG documented so far violates at least one of these
requirements.

Hannes

[Bakual]

Hannes can you please stop complaining and attacking the work of others? Thanks.

This project already has already enough people doing exactly that. Your "contribution" is not needed in that part of the project.

I'm sure your know how and time can be spent better into more productive areas.

[Niels Braczek]

Hi Thomas,

> Hannes can you please stop complaining and attacking the work of others?
> Thanks.

Thank you for jumping in, but for the health of the community I believe
this belongs to private mail. I'm just ignoring attacks on the web, and
that works good for more than 20 years now.

[Cynthia Turcotte]

I can think of a few things:

1. True SEF that is not contingent upon publishing an article or category to a menu

2. The ability to link to an article from multiple menus without having to create a new URL (resulting in duplicate content) in the additional menus.

Best,

Cynthia

[Niv Froehlich]

Directed to anyone from the Joomla 4 Working Group (J4WG):

The "Get Involved" link states (https://volunteers.joomla.org/working-groups/joomla-4-working-group#getinvolved)

Anybody able and willing to get her/his hands dirty to make J4 the best should 

Contact Marco Dings on glip

1.  For those who don't use 'glip,' (or don't even know what that means) can we provide a link and/or more detailed instructions in that section?

2.  It appears that many contributions to this email list can be categorized as "Suggestions/Wish List."  Is there a preferred/better way for these types of submissions to the J4WG?

Cheers,

N 

 

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[Bakual]

If you want to know what Glip is and join it, feel free to send me an email to thomas....@community.joomla.org. Or to any other leadership member. Even many other community members can invite you there.

If you want to contact Marco, you can use any of his contacts: https://volunteers.joomla.org/joomlers/marco-dings#contact. Glip is only one way.

Am Dienstag, 19. Januar 2016 22:03:54 UTC+1 schrieb Niv Froehlich:

Directed to anyone from the Joomla 4 Working Group (J4WG):

The "Get Involved" link states (https://volunteers.joomla.org/working-groups/joomla-4-working-group#getinvolved)

Anybody able and willing to get her/his hands dirty to make J4 the best should 

Contact Marco Dings on glip

1.  For those who don't use 'glip,' (or don't even know what that means) can we provide a link and/or more detailed instructions in that section?

2.  It appears that many contributions to this email list can be categorized as "Suggestions/Wish List."  Is there a preferred/better way for these types of submissions to the J4WG?

Cheers,

N 

 

On Mon, Jan 18, 2016 at 8:50 PM, Cynthia Turcotte <cynthia.turcotte1972@gmail.com> wrote:

I can think of a few things:

1. True SEF that is not contingent upon publishing an article or category to a menu

2. The ability to link to an article from multiple menus without having to create a new URL (resulting in duplicate content) in the additional menus.

Best,

Cynthia

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[Niv Froehlich]

Hi Thomas,

Thanks for your email and the helpful info (FYI - I've been on Glip since June 20, 2015 so I wasn't requesting the info is not for me).

I will submit this to the Volunteer Portal WG, but my thoughts:

1.  Streamlining Suggestions / Comments for Joomla 4 (and other specific initiatives)

The Volunteer Portal and publicly defined, discrete Working Groups provides opportunity to streamline and better handle comments and suggestions.

There are hundreds of people working on numerous aspects on Joomla - yet we seem to flood the email lists with comments/suggestions of every kind, when we could be directing those to the appropriate Working 

Case-in-point ("What we would like to see in Joomla 4" suggestions and comments that started this thread).

2.  Requirement for WG leaders to include info for submission of Suggestions / Comments from general community

Each WG can define the way in which they would like to receive comments/suggestions from the community (i.e. Glip, forum, etc.).  

We can then direct comments and suggestions to the appropriate channel.

To facilitate this, from the outset, when a WG is formed, on the 'Get Involved' tab, there should be info provided for how the general community (non-team members) can submit their suggestions and comments.

The Volunteer Portal team can oversee (co-ordinate) with the team leaders to make sure that this info is available and as clear as possible to the general public.

We are pretty much doing this any ways - but IMHO, just need to tweak the process slightly to really capitalize on the benefits.

The benefits: keep the email lists 'less flooded' and 'get the valuable comments and suggestions to the appropriate WG.'

---

At this point, I'd like to turn the discussion back to 'What we would like to see in Joomla 4,' but again, IMHO, better that the J4WG define how they want to receive that input on their 'Get Involved' tab

(https://volunteers.joomla.org/working-groups/joomla-4-working-group#getinvolved)

Cheers,

N

On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 5:10 PM, Bakual <bakual...@gmail.com> wrote:

If you want to know what Glip is and join it, feel free to send me an email to thomas....@community.joomla.org. Or to any other leadership member. Even many other community members can invite you there.

If you want to contact Marco, you can use any of his contacts: https://volunteers.joomla.org/joomlers/marco-dings#contact. Glip is only one way.

Am Dienstag, 19. Januar 2016 22:03:54 UTC+1 schrieb Niv Froehlich:

Directed to anyone from the Joomla 4 Working Group (J4WG):

The "Get Involved" link states (https://volunteers.joomla.org/working-groups/joomla-4-working-group#getinvolved)

Anybody able and willing to get her/his hands dirty to make J4 the best should 

Contact Marco Dings on glip

1.  For those who don't use 'glip,' (or don't even know what that means) can we provide a link and/or more detailed instructions in that section?

2.  It appears that many contributions to this email list can be categorized as "Suggestions/Wish List."  Is there a preferred/better way for these types of submissions to the J4WG?

Cheers,

N 

 

On Mon, Jan 18, 2016 at 8:50 PM, Cynthia Turcotte <cynthia.tu...@gmail.com> wrote:

I can think of a few things:

1. True SEF that is not contingent upon publishing an article or category to a menu

2. The ability to link to an article from multiple menus without having to create a new URL (resulting in duplicate content) in the additional menus.

Best,

Cynthia

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[Marco Dings]

All, Niv,

Thanks for the suggestions, you are adressing some vaild points. I will strive to include these in the way forward.

As i'm a strong believer in voice communication, i invite anybody that desires so to reach on on skype "marcodings" and we can discuss. I dare say i'm fluent in dutch, english and german and can get by in french so don't let langue be a hurdle.

Marco

On Wednesday, 20 January 2016 00:03:12 UTC+1, Niv Froehlich wrote:

Hi Thomas,

Thanks for your email and the helpful info (FYI - I've been on Glip since June 20, 2015 so I wasn't requesting the info is not for me).

I will submit this to the Volunteer Portal WG, but my thoughts:

1.  Streamlining Suggestions / Comments for Joomla 4 (and other specific initiatives)

The Volunteer Portal and publicly defined, discrete Working Groups provides opportunity to streamline and better handle comments and suggestions.

There are hundreds of people working on numerous aspects on Joomla - yet we seem to flood the email lists with comments/suggestions of every kind, when we could be directing those to the appropriate Working 

Case-in-point ("What we would like to see in Joomla 4" suggestions and comments that started this thread).

2.  Requirement for WG leaders to include info for submission of Suggestions / Comments from general community

Each WG can define the way in which they would like to receive comments/suggestions from the community (i.e. Glip, forum, etc.).  

We can then direct comments and suggestions to the appropriate channel.

To facilitate this, from the outset, when a WG is formed, on the 'Get Involved' tab, there should be info provided for how the general community (non-team members) can submit their suggestions and comments.

The Volunteer Portal team can oversee (co-ordinate) with the team leaders to make sure that this info is available and as clear as possible to the general public.

We are pretty much doing this any ways - but IMHO, just need to tweak the process slightly to really capitalize on the benefits.

The benefits: keep the email lists 'less flooded' and 'get the valuable comments and suggestions to the appropriate WG.'

---

At this point, I'd like to turn the discussion back to 'What we would like to see in Joomla 4,' but again, IMHO, better that the J4WG define how they want to receive that input on their 'Get Involved' tab

(https://volunteers.joomla.org/working-groups/joomla-4-working-group#getinvolved)

Cheers,

N

On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 5:10 PM, Bakual <bakual...@gmail.com> wrote:

If you want to know what Glip is and join it, feel free to send me an email to thomas.hunziker@community.joomla.org. Or to any other leadership member. Even many other community members can invite you there.

If you want to contact Marco, you can use any of his contacts: https://volunteers.joomla.org/joomlers/marco-dings#contact. Glip is only one way.

Am Dienstag, 19. Januar 2016 22:03:54 UTC+1 schrieb Niv Froehlich:

Directed to anyone from the Joomla 4 Working Group (J4WG):

The "Get Involved" link states (https://volunteers.joomla.org/working-groups/joomla-4-working-group#getinvolved)

Anybody able and willing to get her/his hands dirty to make J4 the best should 

Contact Marco Dings on glip

1.  For those who don't use 'glip,' (or don't even know what that means) can we provide a link and/or more detailed instructions in that section?

2.  It appears that many contributions to this email list can be categorized as "Suggestions/Wish List."  Is there a preferred/better way for these types of submissions to the J4WG?

Cheers,

N 

 

On Mon, Jan 18, 2016 at 8:50 PM, Cynthia Turcotte <cynthia.turcotte1972@gmail.com> wrote:

I can think of a few things:

1. True SEF that is not contingent upon publishing an article or category to a menu

2. The ability to link to an article from multiple menus without having to create a new URL (resulting in duplicate content) in the additional menus.

Best,

Cynthia

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[ssnobben]

Thanks Niv for good suggestions and Marco its good that you like voice communication but you also have to be communicative regularly for all Joomla people in the community so people know whats going on. 

What also worries me is when long time contributors like Hannes P doesnt understand half of what your working group proposing for the way forward for Joomla and you can not voice all others if they dont understand either.

So please also communicate with all the rest of people that would like to know whats going on so they also can join and contribute and that also spread the word how great Joomla will be in future.

Its so many channels now so its difficult so grasp every information in these channels instead of just posting on Joomla.org whats going on. For example if there is an working group report make that report seen in the developer news front page on Joomla.org too. Post the developer videos links on front page too etc Then people see the activity thats going on for Joomla progress on all levels.The phpBB forums could be used with different groups access too using JFusion for a SSO solution so you have one login for all Joomla sites..

Question: Is this the development of new Joomla 4 or where is that going on? -->  https://github.com/joomla-projects/joomla-pythagoras

Cheers!

If you want to know what Glip is and join it, feel free to send me an email to thomas....@community.joomla.org. Or to any other leadership member. Even many other community members can invite you there.

If you want to contact Marco, you can use any of his contacts: https://volunteers.joomla.org/joomlers/marco-dings#contact. Glip is only one way.

Am Dienstag, 19. Januar 2016 22:03:54 UTC+1 schrieb Niv Froehlich:

Directed to anyone from the Joomla 4 Working Group (J4WG):

The "Get Involved" link states (https://volunteers.joomla.org/working-groups/joomla-4-working-group#getinvolved)

Anybody able and willing to get her/his hands dirty to make J4 the best should 

Contact Marco Dings on glip

1.  For those who don't use 'glip,' (or don't even know what that means) can we provide a link and/or more detailed instructions in that section?

2.  It appears that many contributions to this email list can be categorized as "Suggestions/Wish List."  Is there a preferred/better way for these types of submissions to the J4WG?

Cheers,

N 

 

On Mon, Jan 18, 2016 at 8:50 PM, Cynthia Turcotte <cynthia.tu...@gmail.com> wrote:

I can think of a few things:

1. True SEF that is not contingent upon publishing an article or category to a menu

2. The ability to link to an article from multiple menus without having to create a new URL (resulting in duplicate content) in the additional menus.

Best,

Cynthia

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[Niv Froehlich]

@snobben

Agreed with much of what you say.  Just FYI, I have reached out Sander (Group Lead) for the Joomla Volunteers Portal, where each Working Group is defined and listed, to see how I can be of assistance.

Sander has reviewed and already responded, so you can say work is in-progress on ways we can improve communications.

One idea is to review each WG's 'Get Involved' page to ensure that they've defined the channel/platform on which they would like to receive input from the general community for their specific scope of work.

For example, with respect to topic of this particular thread, "What we'd like to see in J4," it's not feasible and very inefficient to expect that all J4 Working Group members would review all threads and channels - so it would be helpful if that's better defined, as well as have an area in which the community can review existing ideas already proposed and comment/expand on those as well.

The way I see it, a lot of people have put a lot of hard work in the new structure to define Working Groups - they foundation is there, and we can certainly build on it to improve how we as a community communicate.

Cheers,

N

[Niels Braczek]

Am 23.01.2016 um 16:06 schrieb ssnobben:

> Question: Is this the development of new Joomla 4 or where is that going
> on? --> https://github.com/joomla-projects/joomla-pythagoras

Yes, it is. Also have a look at the forks (and theit different
branches), as a lot of things is not PR ready...

[Niv Froehlich]

Just incidentally, you can get a lot of insight into how the Joomla 4 Architecture Group is progressing through the minutes posted by Marco Dings at https://volunteers.joomla.org/working-groups/joomla-4-architecture#reports

I found these minutes to be very informative!  Thanks Marco for posting!

Cheers,

N

[ssnobben]

If Joomla could add different languages-localization easy similar like Craft example here see video https://craftcms.com/features/localization that would be great and work with new Hannes router ;)

[ced1870]

Hi all

I agree with these suggestions

1/ "You should remove /libraries/legacy. You can merge /libraries/joomla and /libraries/cms folders. It will be better to merge them with Joomla! Framework(Platform)."
>> this is actually a pain to find where are stored the data, and I don't think that splitting all in 3 different folders is still needed

2/ "The focus should be much more on the CMS and user experience than the framework."'
>> yes, without users, Joomla! is nothing. Don't forget that. Joomla! is not a word of developpers only

3/ "You have to provide a compatibility layer because you will have to remove half of the current extensions in JED again. Most extensions for Joomla 3 will have to work on Joomla 4."
>> of course ! else you will loose every people. Still many users does not update to J!3 due to compatibility issues and the efforts needed. And you can't blame users for that, you can only blame the developpers that does not do that better

Hope Joomla! will always be better for ALL
Regards
CEd


Le vendredi 15 janvier 2016 14:11:34 UTC+1, Todor Iliev a écrit :

Hi friends,

I am starting this discussion for everyone who would like to share his vision about Joomla 4.

Let we say what we would like to see in next major release.

I read Brian's and Nicholas' posts. I watched the presentations of Chris and Marcos. The plans sound great and I like the ideas of Brian and Nicholas.

Let me share my vision and ideas with you.

Joomla! CMS

I would like to see lighter and easier for extending content management system. I mean, fewer core extensions and much more free third-party extensions.

You have to provide a compatibility layer because you will have to remove half of the current extensions in JED again. Most extensions for Joomla 3 will have to work on Joomla 4.

The system has to work good enough on top five platforms as a service. It has to be easier for scaling.

I would like to see to publish releases with new features more frequently.

The focus should be much more on the CMS and user experience than the framework. It should be easier for end users to start using the CMS. I would like to see more help pages, tips and tricks in the administration.

It will be great if Joomla 4 be released in 2016.

Joomla! Framework

You should remove /libraries/legacy. You can merge /libraries/joomla and /libraries/cms folders. It will be better to merge them with Joomla! Framework(Platform).

The framework should provide code only needed for Joomla CMS. You can remove the following packages - facebook-api, twitter-api, linkedin-api, google-api, openstreetmap-api.

It will be better to focus on the framework as part of Joomla CMS than as a competitor of Zend, Laravel or Symfony. Do not lose time and energy to be their competitor.

You can replace some libraries with other ones.

The libraries oauth1, oauth2, datetime, http, log can be replaced with League/oauth1-client, League/oauth2-client, Carbon, Guzzle PHP HTTP, Monolog.

Composer

I would like to be possible to install third-party libraries with my extensions. I think about an extension and API (part of the framework). It could be Joomla Dependency Manager that will be able to manage packages just like Composer.

The installer will use the API to provide similar functionality to the developers. We will be able to describe dependencies in the manifest file, and the system will do the job when install/upgrade and extension.

It could be one of the ideas for Google Summer of Code 2016.

Templates

I would like Joomla 4 to be based on Twitter Bootstrap 4.

Most template providers and developers switched to Bootstrap 3 long time ago. Both are 90% compatible each other.

Furthermore, there are tons of good third-party scripts for Bootstrap, which will help us to make Joomla user-friendly and to provide better user experience easily.

Developer Tools

It will be great if we provide some developer tools. I think about the following ones:

• Dependency manager - I mentioned it earlier. It will manage libraries installed by third-party extensions.
• Distribution manager - it could be a component that will create distributions by one click. Then distributions should be published on Joomla servers (distributions.joomla.com)
• Translation manager - It could be a component that will help users to translate their language files. It can provide machine translation from Microsoft Translator and Google Translator. The translations can be contributed and stored on Joomla servers (translations.joomla.com).

Conclusion

I would like Joomla 4 to be scalable, easy for extending and compatible with Joomla 3 extensions/templates.

It has to provide great user experience (thanks to Bootstrap 4) and useful developer tools.

[ssnobben]

Hi Marco,

you did some good update reports about the progressing of the Joomla 4 Architecture group work 3 months ago https://volunteers.joomla.org/working-groups/joomla-4-architecture#reports

Would be nice to know whats going on with the Joomla 4 project and have some updates from you guys.

Cheers!


On Wednesday, 20 January 2016 00:23:36 UTC+1, Marco Dings wrote:

If you want to know what Glip is and join it, feel free to send me an email to thomas....@community.joomla.org. Or to any other leadership member. Even many other community members can invite you there.

If you want to contact Marco, you can use any of his contacts: https://volunteers.joomla.org/joomlers/marco-dings#contact. Glip is only one way.

Am Dienstag, 19. Januar 2016 22:03:54 UTC+1 schrieb Niv Froehlich:

Directed to anyone from the Joomla 4 Working Group (J4WG):

The "Get Involved" link states (https://volunteers.joomla.org/working-groups/joomla-4-working-group#getinvolved)

Anybody able and willing to get her/his hands dirty to make J4 the best should 

Contact Marco Dings on glip

1.  For those who don't use 'glip,' (or don't even know what that means) can we provide a link and/or more detailed instructions in that section?

2.  It appears that many contributions to this email list can be categorized as "Suggestions/Wish List."  Is there a preferred/better way for these types of submissions to the J4WG?

Cheers,

N 

 

On Mon, Jan 18, 2016 at 8:50 PM, Cynthia Turcotte <cynthia.tu...@gmail.com> wrote:

I can think of a few things:

1. True SEF that is not contingent upon publishing an article or category to a menu

2. The ability to link to an article from multiple menus without having to create a new URL (resulting in duplicate content) in the additional menus.

Best,

Cynthia

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[ssnobben]

Hi Marco!

I would like to know whats going on with the new Joomla you have been proposed and lead.

What is the status of the new Joomla dev process and how have it been succeed?

I only can follow this "working group"? https://volunteers.joomla.org/working-groups/joomla-4-architecture#reports with some latest reports from

Joomla!4 archtecture minutes of meeting 2015/12/02

So whats going on Marco? Have you stepped down without reporting this or whats happening with the new Joomla?

Or can someone else inform me and others what going on ?

On Wednesday, 20 January 2016 00:23:36 UTC+1, Marco Dings wrote:

If you want to know what Glip is and join it, feel free to send me an email to thomas....@community.joomla.org. Or to any other leadership member. Even many other community members can invite you there.

If you want to contact Marco, you can use any of his contacts: https://volunteers.joomla.org/joomlers/marco-dings#contact. Glip is only one way.

Am Dienstag, 19. Januar 2016 22:03:54 UTC+1 schrieb Niv Froehlich:

Directed to anyone from the Joomla 4 Working Group (J4WG):

The "Get Involved" link states (https://volunteers.joomla.org/working-groups/joomla-4-working-group#getinvolved)

Anybody able and willing to get her/his hands dirty to make J4 the best should 

Contact Marco Dings on glip

1.  For those who don't use 'glip,' (or don't even know what that means) can we provide a link and/or more detailed instructions in that section?

2.  It appears that many contributions to this email list can be categorized as "Suggestions/Wish List."  Is there a preferred/better way for these types of submissions to the J4WG?

Cheers,

N 

 

On Mon, Jan 18, 2016 at 8:50 PM, Cynthia Turcotte <cynthia.tu...@gmail.com> wrote:

I can think of a few things:

1. True SEF that is not contingent upon publishing an article or category to a menu

2. The ability to link to an article from multiple menus without having to create a new URL (resulting in duplicate content) in the additional menus.

Best,

Cynthia

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[Sergio Manzi]

Is Joomla 4 code available for preview somewhere?

Thanks!

smz

[Elijah Madden]

I'd love to see a better separation of front and backend. I favor a complete separation actually. Joomla used to be tied to Mootools (maybe still is for some things) but that fell out of favor so it became JQuery and Bootstrap. Templates, JHtml functions, etc are tightly coupled with these things. Joomla does provide enough flexibility to override and escape from these dependencies but it's not always easy. 

It would be better if Joomla would only provide the backend and provide services that deliver json data to front-end frameworks (Angular, React, anything, doesn't matter). Let it be up to those frameworks to do all the rendering. Joomla shouldn't need to know if the page needs a modal dialog or a sortable table or a tabbed interface. 

This is probably too radical a change for 4.0. Maybe more like 5.0 but this is the future of the web and the faster we move toward it, the better.

[Niels Braczek]

Am 27.04.2016 um 06:58 schrieb Elijah Madden:

> This is probably too radical a change for 4.0. Maybe more like 5.0 but this
> is the future of the web and the faster we move toward it, the better.

That actually becomes reality in Joomla!4 due to the Renderer concept.
Rendering is completely separated. Components just deliver the structure
(using standardised Content Elements). Renderers serialise the structure
to JSN, XML, HTML, ...

[piotr_cz]

Some brief communication about current state and what's happening.

Because from the WG reports it would look like this project has been abandoned in 2015.

From checking the Pythagoras repo I see there has been created a clean-base branch but I found it only by coincidence

[Niels Braczek]

Am 27.04.2016 um 15:47 schrieb piotr_cz:

> Some brief communication about current state and what's happening.
> Because from the WG reports it would look like

> <https://volunteers.joomla.org/working-groups/joomla-4-architecture#reports> this

> project has been abandoned in 2015.
>
>>From checking the Pythagoras repo I see there has been created a clean-base
> branch but I found it only by coincidence

You're absolutely right. We have to get better at communicating outward.

[ssnobben]

You're absolutely right. We have to get better at communicating outward.

Regards,
Niels

Absolutely. As now there seems there is no activity and Marco have left for the moon if you follow the previous reports that suddenly stopped coming.

So whats the status of this J 4 group? is there nobody that can update the rest of us whats going on? If its closed down pls start all over again with a new set up and a new group with people that would like to work with this..

[Hannes Papenberg]

And now? Yes, you have to get better at communicating, but that normally
entails that you at least try to give an update and answer a few of the
questions.

Looking at the Pythagoras repository, I see one branch that got
substantiel work done and that is the clean-base branch. Everything else
either hasn't been touched for months or simply got the clean-base
branch merged into it lately. It would be cool if I could say that the
clean-base branch is going to be the thing, but simply looking at the
commit history, you (Niels) have been the (almost) only one working on
this in the last 5 months. Your commitment here is applaudable, but in
fact this should trigger EVERYBODYS alarms right now. This basically
means that the whole community currently relies on one person to write
4.0 and that is a nearly worst case scenario. I know that you will say
"Then help out, join in." As I said before, I don't share your idea of
Joomla 4.0. Thus I can not support you on this one.

I'm again asking the community here to think about what we want and
where we are. From my perspective, Joomla 4.0 needs to happen this year
and so far we've got nothing that is even remotely as usable as Joomla
3.5. If we start now with a straight plan for Joomla 4.0 (Remove
deprecated code, provide a cleaned-up set of MVC classes, switch to
Bootstrap 4, maybe consolidate com_search and com_finder) we might be
able to release in december right in time for christmas. I know that
there are several people that would follow that path and who are active
developers in our community.

Regards,
Hannes

[Niels Braczek]

Am 28.04.2016 um 09:26 schrieb ssnobben:

> So whats the status of this J 4 group? is there nobody that can update the
> rest of us whats going on?

I'll publish a report on the volunteers portal very soon.

[Todor Iliev]

+1 Hannes.
Let someone ask Marco what is going on?

If he has no enough time, you should create another working group.
Let the most passionate people do Joomla! 4.

The conference JandBeyond will be the best place where you will be able to discus the new architecture.

It won't be necessary to implement all new features in Joomla 4. You can do it one by one in next releases.

In J! 3.6 could be implemented

• Custom fields
• New media manager
• New router
  

In J3.7 could be implemented

• Service layer and Command Bus
• Web services
  
• Admin template
  

In 3.8 could be implemented

• Doctrine as Database Abstraction Layer

In J4.0 could be implemented

• New renderer.
  
• New MVC (including DI Container). So, when I create an object in the controller, this object to be accessible in the views, modules and plugins.

Cheers!

[Niels Braczek]

Am 28.04.2016 um 11:53 schrieb 'Hannes Papenberg' via Joomla! CMS
Development:

> And now? Yes, you have to get better at communicating, but that normally
> entails that you at least try to give an update and answer a few of the
> questions.

A report is on its way.

> Looking at the Pythagoras repository, I see one branch that got
> substantiel work done and that is the clean-base branch. Everything else
> either hasn't been touched for months or simply got the clean-base
> branch merged into it lately. It would be cool if I could say that the
> clean-base branch is going to be the thing

The clean-base branch started out as an experiment. Originally, we tried
an incremental approach (that is, where all the branches came from), but
it turned out, that it would be impossible to show just the basic
architectural concepts at JaB (one of our goals since the Athens
sprint). So I suggested to start on a clean base, and was allowed to do so.

Now it has shown, that the clean base approach works, so it has left the
playground and was moved to the pythagoras repo.

> but simply looking at the
> commit history, you (Niels) have been the (almost) only one working on
> this in the last 5 months.

That is due to the history of the clean base branch (I hope). But now
there is code to look at and to test, so it is possible for everybody
interested in Joomla!s future to contribute.

> As I said before, I don't share your idea of
> Joomla 4.0. Thus I can not support you on this one.

That's too bad.

> I'm again asking the community here to think about what we want and
> where we are. From my perspective, Joomla 4.0 needs to happen this year
> and so far we've got nothing that is even remotely as usable as Joomla
> 3.5. If we start now with a straight plan for Joomla 4.0 (Remove
> deprecated code, provide a cleaned-up set of MVC classes, switch to
> Bootstrap 4, maybe consolidate com_search and com_finder) we might be
> able to release in december right in time for christmas. I know that
> there are several people that would follow that path and who are active
> developers in our community.

I see no problem with that. Pythagoras will be Joomla!5 then. If you
keep in mind, that Joomla 3.x/4 will be followed Pythagoras, and you
make the transition gap smaller, then I support you on this one.

[Niels Braczek]

Am 28.04.2016 um 13:23 schrieb Todor Iliev:

> The conference JandBeyond <http://jandbeyond.org/> will be the best place

> where you will be able to discus the new architecture.

Unfortunately, not a single Joomla 4 session was accepted for JaB (we
had proposed a couple). Hopefully, we at least can get a "Make it
happen" slot.

> It won't be necessary to implement all new features in Joomla 4. You can do
> it one by one in next releases.

There is a similar plan for the 3.x series (I'm not familiar with the
details, though). 4.0 features, that technically can go into 3.x, should
do so, to make the transition gap as small as possible.

[brian teeman]

On Thursday, 28 April 2016 12:43:52 UTC+1, Niels Braczek wrote:

Am 28.04.2016 um 13:23 schrieb Todor Iliev:

> The conference JandBeyond <http://jandbeyond.org/> will be the best place
> where you will be able to discus the new architecture.

Unfortunately, not a single Joomla 4 session was accepted for JaB (we
had proposed a couple). Hopefully, we at least can get a "Make it
happen" slot.

Thats a real shame and pretty surprising 

[piotr_cz]

I think Joomla has to rethink it's position on the market and future.

Most of the resources are focused on current version (see GSOC 2016 Project Ideas) and the J4/ Pythagoras looks like a hobby project, not taken seriously even at JaB.

[Todor Iliev]

I have just seen the report about Joomla! X and documentation about the new architecture.
It sounds wonderful and really promising.

I'm eager to install the alpha version of Joomla! 4. :)

Thank you very much, Niels!

[piotr_cz]

Thank you Niels

[Beat]

I'm not surprised.

But I'm also very sad.

1) I'm not surprised:

Last year JAB 2015 I also proposed a single session: An interactive session of its own to discuss and share between us possible visions for Joomla's future, named "A brainstorm session for a Joomla Vision".

My session proposal got rejected with the standard message:

> Thank you so much for submitting a Session proposal for J and Beyond this year.
>
> Once again we have had to make some very difficult decisions selecting the sessions and ensuring a balanced program and unfortunately your session called
> "A brainstorm session for a Joomla Vision"
> was not selected.
>
> When you see the final selection of sessions next week I'm sure you will agree that JAB15 will be an awesome event and we look forward to seeing you there.

I didn't see any such session agended.

2) and I'm sad, because history repeates itself:

And when I asked a question in a LT keynote about "what is the humanity purpose vision" of Joomla 4 (you know, the thing that makes us wake up in the morning all excited to contribute to a grand cause), the moderator (you know who it was, my goal here is not to point a finger at anyone, but just at how we treat contributions and suggestions) made fun of me in front of the whole assembly (after the assembly applauded my question and suggestion).

So no, I'm not surprised and sad.

Again, this is not to criticize the great work all people organizing JAB are doing, nor anybody in particular.

But if "J and Beyond" is not about future, vision, brainstorm, and letting people who are in charge of Joomla 4 have a session accepted, then it's a real shame and something should be done immediately. Maybe at least change the name of the conference.

I'm really sad and shocked that Niel's session got rejected too.

But things do not need to stay so. Joomla People, it's time to act!

Rember first JAB, when people stood up to make Joomla  a better place ?

I'm starting here:

+1 I'm voting for all Joomla 4 (and 3.6+) rejected sessions proposals to be reconsidered and accepted, and put them high up on the priority list of JAB16!

JAB16 should not just be "A Family Gathering". It should stay a safe place where evolution and small and big peaceful disruptions can occur.

So many thanks to Niels for the work you already did for Joomla 4/5, and for staying onboard and working on the next big thing! I hope this thread will make things move forward too, and yes, maybe have a longer-term vision for Joomla 4 and for Joomla 5. Joomla badly needs them! :-)

Best Regards,
Beat
http://www.joomlapolis.com/

On Thursday, April 28, 2016 at 3:24:34 PM UTC+2, brian teeman wrote:

[brian teeman]

As it was me that rejected your session for JAB15 I can answer why it was rejected and it was simply because we had double the number of submissions to available sessions and I made a decision NOT to have any sessions that were purely discussions as there is plenty of time at JAB for discussions without having a formal slot.

As for JAB16 I cannot comment as I have retired

[Paul D. Bain]

On 04/29/2016 05:58 AM, 'brian teeman' via Joomla! CMS Development wrote:
> As it was me that rejected your session for JAB15 I can answer why it
> was rejected and it was simply because we had double the number of
> submissions to available sessions and I made a decision NOT to have any
> sessions that were purely discussions as there is plenty of time at JAB
> for discussions without having a formal slot.

Brian T.,

I presume that this message is in reply to the email of piotr_cz, which
email was sent at 2:55 AM on 29 April. Is that correct? Please let us
know.

It is difficult for me to ascertain who you are replying to, due to the
manner in which Thunderbird displays email threads-of-discussion.

Sincerely,
Paul Bain

[brian teeman]

No it was in reply to Beat

[ssnobben]

" NOT to have any sessions that were purely discussions....JAB for discussions without having a formal slot" 

So where is Joomla future formal discussed? and if not at this important JAB event where people can discuss together face to face? for me that should be the priority at least one time per year for all people to engaged to feel commitment and its should also be planned/prepared and lead by someone to create some discussion points and agenda there...

Or what you think?

[Niels Braczek]

Am 01.06.2016 um 12:02 schrieb ssnobben:

> So where is Joomla future formal discussed? and if not at this important
> JAB event where people can discuss together face to face? for me that
> should be the priority at least one time per year for all people to engaged
> to feel commitment and its should also be planned/prepared and lead by
> someone to create some discussion points and agenda there...

Don't forget, that JaB is not an official Joomla! event. The decisions
made by the organisers do not necessarily reflect the project's (or
OSM's) intentions.

Nevertheless, a slot was added with short notice, where I was allowed to
tell something about Joomla X (formerly known as Joomla 4), and George
Wilson presented his point of view. There was a discussion afterwards.

Recording of the Joomla 4 session:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Zb_cqsHMWI

I talked to as many people as possible about that session and the
different approaches to Joomla's future, and all of them stated to be
happy with the outcome, and to feel reliefed by the reconsiliation of
the two fractions.

After JaB, there was a PLT meeting, also covering the Joomla X future.

Meeting notes:
https://volunteers.joomla.org/reports/245-plt-meeting-after-j-and-beyond-2016

So, now we have merely 6 weeks to prove, that the clean-base approach
makes sense.

The first step will be to clean up the pythagoras repo, and move all
issues, branches, and PR's targeted at staging (=3.x) to the CMS repo,
and rename clean-base to master, so everybody can see, where the work
actually happens.

The next step should be a to-do list to make it easy for people to jump
in by picking a task.

Then there should be enough time (and hopefully some more brains and
hands) to complete the 'Chris-Davenport-Happy' milestone
(https://github.com/joomla-projects/joomla-pythagoras/blob/clean-base/docs/j4cdhms.md)

[Webdongle Elgnodbew]

Hi Niels

Watched the first 12 mins or so (will watch the rest when I get the time) ... first impression is that creating a 'look n feel' will be better for the end user.  Us keen amateurs will have a lot more to learn but nothing too taxing to understand changes that may need to be made to Templates.

My only concern is how fast changes in technology happen and I wonder need to keep pace with the changes will eventually severely restrict what a keen amateur can do.  And ultimately affect the amount of free time that professionals can spend.  However the speed of technological advancement is something we have no control over but is something we need to follow.

[Sergio Manzi]

Hello!

On 2016-06-01 13:52, Niels Braczek wrote:

...

After JaB, there was a PLT meeting, also covering the Joomla X future.

Meeting notes:
https://volunteers.joomla.org/reports/245-plt-meeting-after-j-and-beyond-2016

...

I'm reading this in the minutes

"Once the CDH goals have been met then some companies have committed to providing more resources into the product and this should be within the next few weeks after JAB."

and I have 3 questions:

1. what is "CDH"?
2. which companies?
3. what kind of resources?

Thanks,

smz

[brian teeman]

https://github.com/nibra/joomla-pythagoras/blob/staging/j4cdhms.md

 

1. which companies?

irrelevant  

1. what kind of resources?

irrelevant

 

Thanks,

smz

[brian teeman]

On Wednesday, 1 June 2016 14:00:10 UTC+1, Webdongle Elgnodbew wrote:

Hi Niels

Watched the first 12 mins or so (will watch the rest when I get the time) ... first impression is that creating a 'look n feel' will be better for the end user.  Us keen amateurs will have a lot more to learn but nothing too taxing to understand changes that may need to be made to Templates.

My only concern is how fast changes in technology happen and I wonder need to keep pace with the changes will eventually severely restrict what a keen amateur can do.  And ultimately affect the amount of free time that professionals can spend.  However the speed of technological advancement is something we have no control over but is something we need to follow.

You really should watch it ALL before commenting - the reason will become obvious when you do

[Sergio Manzi]

Thanks for the link. Now it is clear: "Chris Davenport Happy"!!

Thanks also for deciding what is relevant/irrelevant to me/the community.

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[Niels Braczek]

Am 01.06.2016 um 15:39 schrieb Sergio Manzi:

> 1. what is "CDH"?

'CDH' is 'Chris-Davenport-Happy' milestone
(https://github.com/joomla-projects/joomla-pythagoras/blob/clean-base/docs/j4cdhms.md)

> 2. which companies?

Some of the bigger 3PDeveloper companies (I know of two). It's not up to
me (and it's not the time) to reveal more information.

> 3. what kind of resources?

Mainly manpower.

[Sergio Manzi]

Thanks, Niels!

[Webdongle Elgnodbew]

@Brian

You really should watch it ALL before commenting - the reason will become obvious when you do

The reasons are clear and well stated in the first few minutes.  Yes I will watch it all later when I have more time.  However I doubt if I will have more comments until I ask more questions.  My comments about the pace of technology are general and have nothing to do with watching the video in full.  It would be nice if you stopped putting a negative spin on post and ignoring my positive initial impressions.

As for your answers to Sergio's questions 2 and 3 ... they are totally relevant because some companies try to control Joomla.  A recent example being when secret talks with Google nearly ended up them having ads placed in Joomla Admin.

@Niels

>  2. which companies?

Some of the bigger 3PDeveloper companies (I know of two). It's not up to
me (and it's not the time) to reveal more information.

>  3. what kind of resources?

Mainly manpower.

2. As this Joomla is open source by volunteers ... why the secrecy of who is offering to help ?

3.  Mainly Manpower suggests that is only part of the story ... what other resources and what do they expect in return ?

[Leo Lammerink]

"A recent example being when secret talks with Google nearly ended up them having ads placed in Joomla Admin" that was because some creepy OSM members (we all know who that is/are) tried to screw all with this 'initiative'.......I am fully aware that PLT and many others in some kind of influencing role blocked this with full force on even the threat of resigning from the project if that would happen...... This was widely communicated and those (former) members of PLT can speak for themselves but have been quoted on many, many occasions re. this matter.....So clearly the PLT and many contributors went out in force to stop this from happening so that worked and therefore this argumentation is not valid me think

Leo

--

[Sergio Manzi]

Kevin,

On 2016-06-01 17:12, Webdongle Elgnodbew wrote:

. . .

As for your answers to Sergio's questions 2 and 3 ... they are totally relevant because some companies try to control Joomla.  A recent example being when secret talks with Google nearly ended up them having ads placed in Joomla Admin.

of course I agree.

I would add that while I understand that there can be circumstances under which some aspects of the project management must be kept confidential, I think that in those cases, as a demonstration that this is an open, public community and not an "us and them" community, a statement of what is going on should be made. Something like this:

"We are are pursuing the goal of (add a description of the goals).  In this context negotiation  regarding (add a broad description of nature of the negotiations) are under way with external entities that for the time being must be kept confidential and cannot be named. The exact nature of the negotiations and the involved parties are known to (add a list of the Joomla persons with the "right to know"). The exact nature of the negotiations and the names of the involved parties will be disclosed to the community not later than (add a date)"

In the name of transparency, I also think all those involved with the management of the project (LTs members and the like..) should be obliged to publicly disclose their direct/indirect affiliation with any Joomla business (3rd party developers, web agencies, hosting companies, consulting firms, publishing companies, etc.)

I think this is due to all contributing their time to Joomla.

smz

[Robert G Mears]

The word Joomla is the anglicized spelling of the Swahili word jumla meaning “all together” or “as a whole”.
It has a similar meaning in at least Amharic, Arabic, and Urdu.

[brian teeman]

On Wednesday, 1 June 2016 16:12:13 UTC+1, Webdongle Elgnodbew wrote:

@Brian

You really should watch it ALL before commenting - the reason will become obvious when you do

The reasons are clear and well stated in the first few minutes.  Yes I will watch it all later when I have more time.  However I doubt if I will have more comments until I ask more questions.  My comments about the pace of technology are general and have nothing to do with watching the video in full.  It would be nice if you stopped putting a negative spin on post and ignoring my positive initial impressions.

When you watch the rest of the video you will see why

[Webdongle Elgnodbew]

Hi Leo

I agree that when Google tried to gets ads into Joomla admin that it was blocked ferociously.  However the way that it was blocked is not the point I was making.  The intention of Google to control the content of Joomla is what I was referring to when using that issue as an example.

Therefore Sergio's questions 2 and 3 are relevant because the companies and their contributions relate to the control of the Joomla project.  Let's be clear here ... I am NOT suggesting the unnamed companies and their unknown contributions are and attempt to control the Joomla project.  What I am saying is that (as was seen by the google example) there are companies who ... by various means ... would like to have control. 

Not naming the companies (and what they offer to contribute) when making announcements is understandable because there is a limit to the time and length of reports.  But to actively avoid giving the details when requested is secretive.  Secrecy and deliberately avoiding transparency sows the seed of suspicion.   It would be a simple matter to prevent the seed (that Niels planted) from growing by answering Sergio's questions 2 and 3.


Niels 'clean base' approach and work flow (imho) makes a lot of sense.  It is the comment about the companies "(and it's not the time) to reveal more information" that has created a lot of unanswered questions.


@Brian

When you watch the rest of the video you will see why

I will watch the rest of the video to see if it explains why the companies (and their contributions) are irrelevant.  But I suspect that there are many that wont which will make your answer "not relevant" as a pointless answer because you have not qualified your opinion.  An opinion without qualification is useless to those who would like to know the answer.

 

[Michael Babker]

For clarity it wasn't Google coming to Joomla trying to push their ads into the software.  It was leadership representatives negotiating a deal which included ad placement that was the issue.

[Webdongle Elgnodbew]

Hi Michael

For clarity it wasn't Google coming to Joomla trying to push their ads into the software.  It was leadership representatives negotiating a deal which included ad placement that was the issue

Yep that explains it more clearly but Sergio's questions 2 and 3 are still relevant and remain unanswered. 

[Niels Braczek]

Am 01.06.2016 um 21:11 schrieb Webdongle Elgnodbew:

> Yep that explains it more clearly but Sergio's questions 2 and 3 are still
> relevant and remain unanswered.

I answered them 5 hours before your post in <574EEF45...@bsds.de>.

The reason, why I don't want to reveal the companies, is that their
"donation of manpower" didn't happen yet. We talked about that during
JaB, so there is a lot of good intentions and good will. However,
currently there is not more, and I don't want to push anybody into an
uncomfortable position without need.

It has nothing to do with keeping things secret.

[Niels Braczek]

Am 02.06.2016 um 00:10 schrieb Niels Braczek:

> I answered them 5 hours before your post in <574EEF45...@bsds.de>.

Forget this. You were already referring to it...

[Webdongle Elgnodbew]

Hi Niels

The reason, why I don't want to reveal the companies, is that their
"donation of manpower" didn't happen yet. We talked about that during
JaB, so there is a lot of good intentions and good will. However,
currently there is not more, and I don't want to push anybody into an
uncomfortable position without need.

Great answer ... thanks