Joomla Extension Developers, what resources do you need for the final release of 2.5

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Jessica Dunbar

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Dec 4, 2014, 1:37:44 PM12/4/14
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Dear Joomla Extension Developers
We need your to help spread the word! 
We are currently planning the Joomla 2.5 marketing campaign. Joomla 2.5.28 will be releasing December 10th. As part of our campaign, we are asking extension developers if they would create a blog (of any length) that explains 2.5.28 will be the final release of the 2.5 series. Additionally, it would be helpful that you provide documentation on how to upgrade your extension within your blog post.
Here is documentation by Jennifer Gress, Tom Hutchison, and Connie Lippert to help people plan for upgrading http://docs.joomla.org/Why_Migrate. Furthermore, the marketing team is preparing a press pack to assist you with the proper messaging and Q & A about the development life cycle. 
In conclusion, our goal for this campaign is to work together to help the community find the resources they need for successful upgrade planning.
If you have suggestions on how else we can assist in this transition, please let us know.

Jess


Peter van Westen

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Dec 4, 2014, 4:07:56 PM12/4/14
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Would be nice if the marketing team could provide a nice (short and simple) blog post we - developers - can use as a starting point. Maybe also with some cool images/graphics.
Most devs are not bloggers and/or not to good with words.

Peter

Goyat LLC-吉田憲人

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Dec 4, 2014, 8:30:06 PM12/4/14
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Hi Jess,

I have already written how to migrate Joomla 2.5 to 3.x in Japanese and
spread it in my facebook members. Just for info.

http://www.joomlajp.org/cms/what-should-be-done/1280-how-to-migrate-joomla-2-5-to-3.html

Goyat
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Johan Janssens

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Dec 5, 2014, 9:57:52 PM12/5/14
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Hi Jessica,

Excellent initiative to create awareness around the end of life of Joomla 2.5. What I find missing a bit in the 'Why Migrate' document is information about a phasing out of Joomla 2.5.

I don't think that most people are well aware that Joomla 2.5 is reaching end of life on 31 January 2014 and they fully understand what this means. Can I ask for some prudency before urging people to migrate ? I think a first good step would be an information campaign about the end of life of 2.5 and what this exactly means. 

For example, removing the 2.5 download option from joomla.org : http://www.joomla.org/download.html and hiding it more would be a good step to prevent more 2.5 installations. Instead of a download option information about upgrading to the latest 2.5 and migration to 3.x could be presented to users. 

I did a quick check in our Joomlatools analytics to get an idea how many people are installing our extensions on Joomla 2.5 and got the following data :

1. 1 Dec 2013 47% of installs where on Joomla 2.5
2. 1 Dec 2014 23% of installs where on Joomla 2.5

On average 35% of Joomla install our extensions where installed on in the past year are running Joomla 2.5. These figures are installations and not upgrades,meaning these sites didn't have any of our extensions installed before. 

Since extensions are installed when sites are developed it's fair to assume that the 2.5 install base has grown by 30% in thee past year and right now still 25% of people are choosing 2.5 over 3.x.

Taking this information into account and taking into account that Joomla 2.5 has a bigger install base over 3.x I think it's in everyone best interest that a campaign to migrate people over to 3.x is handled with care and prudence. 

A migration is always a point in time where people will consider other technologies. I would like to see us be able to bring most if not all of the 2.5 install base over to 3.x. There is no rush. With a good planned approach I think we can!

Keep up the good work,

Johan

Michael Babker

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Dec 5, 2014, 10:14:41 PM12/5/14
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Hi Johan,

What you're seeing in terms of download numbers is actually pretty consistent with what I've been seeing for core Joomla downloads since recording download data after some of the detailed metrics were dropped from the JoomlaCode database last summer.  You can see what I've been tracking at https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AtNxys1hAr-HdDFDMWo0Z2ZuS3hIdWlzS3hnX0dOS1E&usp=sharing

Generally, numbers aren't broken down on the spreadsheet much further than total daily downloads or downloads of a package while it was the current release, but if you pull download reports from http://joomlacode.org/gf/project/joomla/frs/?action=FrsReport (note that numbers for Oct 1 forward generally do not include 3.3.6 due to moving the primary space for packages to GitHub), you can see the trends of new installs versus updates for each of the branches (2.5 versus 3.3).  A couple of days ago, this was the summary for our last version (2.5.27 and 3.3.6) downloads:

226,262 new installs of 2.5.27, 472,009 of 3.3.6
434,118 updates to 2.5.27, 488,422 for 3.3.6

As for your other suggestions, many of them are already being planned through the Update Working Group and Marketing teams, including an update of the download page.  It'd be great if you were interested in collaborating in the Update Working Group, seems like your ideas are in line with what the group is aiming to accomplish.

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Tom Hutchison

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Dec 6, 2014, 12:07:33 AM12/6/14
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All

Another one of the take aways developers should keep in mind, is my documentation on my extension(s) ready for a user migrating?  I am rolling the word extension across all aspects too, component, plugin, module and template. 

We are hoping you will help get the word out and at the same time ease your work load with this early notice by partnering with marketing. 

It should be easier to point your users at your specific doc links with a blog post and/or double checking users can find your migration advice. For example:

Please upgrade to "MyExtension" verX.x which is compatible with J2.5 and 3.x before you migrate. 

 or 

You must do xxxx then xxxx before migration. Then install this verX.x once 3.x is installed....

This should hopefully save your time answering a lot of questions in your ticket/forum/feedback/email channels about migration of your extension. If you have everything in place, great! If you will help get the word out, even better and much appreciated!!

Thanks
Tom

Johan Janssens

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Dec 6, 2014, 8:16:07 AM12/6/14
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Hi Michael,

Thanks for sharing the documents. This indeed verifies our own data. Based on this I think we safely assume that Joomla 2.5 is still being installed for 30% of new Joomla websites, or Joomla 2.5 still takes for 1/3 of the market share.

Based on this I don't think a migration awareness campaign is the first step. You run the risk of alienating 1/3 of your market.  A more prudent approach would be to try and get the number of new installs of 2.5 down first to more acceptable numbers. I think 10% would be a good number to scope for. Once you hit that you can be more firm in migration messaging for 2.5 sites.

As I said this can be done without making too much noise. First step is simply to make 2.5 harder to find and install. Removing it from the official site etc together with putting more focus on Joomla 3 should do the trick. 

The trend we are seeing makes new installs drop by 20% in the past 12 months, or +/- 2% a month. I think we can get this number up to 5% with not that much additional effort. That would mean a good 4-6 months before 2.5 new installs drop below 10%.  Once 10% is reached you can start working on migrating users from 2.5 to 3.x to increase market share of the 3.x release.

I'm happy to help where help is needed.  If the Update Working group needs help us this, happy to do so. Not a marketeer, just trying to use some common sense.

Johan

Johan Janssens

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Dec 6, 2014, 8:23:06 AM12/6/14
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Hi Tom,

I don't think this is a real problem that needs to be solved.  The market has already solved this problem on it's own. 

Most if not all developers (specially commercial developers) are already on both 2.5 and 3.x. Having an extension only on one of both releases is economically not viable. As demonstrated in my above reply (with our own data and that of Michael) a year ago the install base was split 50/50 between both 2.5 and 3.x. For a developer being only one would mean missing out on 50% potential revenue.  Data from the JED can confirm this. 

Hope that helps,

Johan

Charlie Heath

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Dec 6, 2014, 11:09:38 AM12/6/14
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From the perspective of a vertical market developer with specialized components for a few clients, the LTS lifetimes of 2 years combined with the lack of a stable API and comprehensive migration documentation is a significant problem.  I'll spare the details, but am three weeks of work and eight months of planning into component migration and still don't have a clear path to actually start client migrations.

I think a more reasonable LTS scheme would add security support on a legacy platform, making it possible to skip one major platform version to better match natural website lifetime expectations on a rolling basis and allow niche component developers to go at least 3 years instead of 1.5 between migration cycles.  This seems to be roughly the model  Drupal uses; V6 released in 2008 still on security support, V7 the current mainline, V8 in beta about a year to allow contributed modules to come to maturity on a feature-frozen core before declaring it the new mainline. V6 support will phase out three months after V8 becomes mainstream.  That's about a seven year supported platform lifetime for developer and website owner planning.

I know the J! organization put a lot of thought and planning into developing its LTS plan, and that a lot of volunteer hours are involved (thanks!).  But if the stats quoted by others here are correct, and J2.5 continues to have new deployments that are roughly equal to V3 deployments, I think the problem is bigger than has been acknowledged if security support is terminated too early.

Thanks again to all the volunteers for their work.  One question for Jessica; will the Advanced Search component have a V3 version?  It looks like the solution to a problem I have for intelligently searching complex structured documents but I'll need the V3 certified component to look at it closer.

Charlie Heath
Town Websites

Bakual

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Dec 6, 2014, 2:51:36 PM12/6/14
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I know for a fact that some hosters will start disabling 2.5 sites beginning next year. Especially those not on the latest release. So telling the users to migrate is in fact needed. They should no longer stay on a 2.5 starting with 2015-01-01. While it most likely still will be secure, they really should plan to migrate asap.

Bakual

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Dec 6, 2014, 2:59:32 PM12/6/14
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Hi Charlie

The new dev strategy we adopted beginning of this year will get you a longer lifespan. Joomla 3 will have an expected lifetime of at least 4 years, most likely more. The first version was released End of 2012.

Joomla 2.5 on the other hand was in maintenance mode for quite some time already (since January 2012). No new features where added, only bugs fixed. The first version of that series was 1.6 (numbers are confusing, I know) which was released january 2011. Also the API between Joomla 2.5.27 and Joomla 3 is compatible. Extensions which are written for Joomla 2.5.27 and don't use deprecated methods will run on Joomla 3 fine.

NoNumber (Peter van Westen)

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Dec 6, 2014, 3:06:53 PM12/6/14
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" Extensions which are written for Joomla 2.5.27 and don't use deprecated methods will run on Joomla 3 fine."

That's not completely true. From a php perspective maybe. But CSS/JavaScript is a different matter. If you stick to what's in core, you have the issue between whatever vs Bootstrap, Mootools vs jQuery, etc. Especially when it comes to admin-side extensions.

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Ole Ottosen (ot2sen)

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Dec 6, 2014, 3:34:48 PM12/6/14
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Hi Jess,

One thing that could be useful, for bloggers and international writers, as well as extension developers, would be that the press pack or media kit this time could be easily adjustable.

Would be nice to have clean Graphics without the English texts, to go with the default en-GB pack. And some easily adjustable file types too.
In general it would be nice to have access to all kind of Graphics, for those WHO would like to spread the Word. Like the Heart, and the neat j3 Graphics, etc.

Ole

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Johan Janssens

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Dec 6, 2014, 3:35:59 PM12/6/14
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Hi Thomas,

Disabling sites ? That sounds like a harsh step to take. Do you have any concrete information about the hosters you are talking about and the amount of Joomla installations that are impacted by this ? Have these hosters made any announcements about the fact they will disable 2.5 ? 

Johan

Tom Hutchison

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Dec 6, 2014, 4:29:57 PM12/6/14
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Johan, 

I think you misread my post. Of course extension developers would most likely have a 2.5 and a 3.x extension at this point. What I was talking about is "migration" of users from 2.5 to 3.x and if any special details must be known for a migration to go smoothly. Yes, the market might have already taken care of it. We are trying to stay ahead of the curve. 

It is no secret 2.5 is approaching EOL. This has been published and talked about. It's no secret even Google has been checking versions of not only our software but others and then notifying webmasters their software is out of date. 

I am now steering this thread back on track by posting Jess's original email which started it.

We need your to help spread the word! 
We are currently planning the Joomla 2.5 marketing campaign. Joomla 2.5.28 will be releasing December 10th. As part of our campaign, we are asking extension developers if they would create a blog (of any length) that explains 2.5.28 will be the final release of the 2.5 series. Additionally, it would be helpful that you provide documentation on how to upgrade your extension within your blog post.
Here is documentation by Jennifer Gress, Tom Hutchison, and Connie Lippert to help people plan for upgradinghttp://docs.joomla.org/Why_Migrate. Furthermore, the marketing team is preparing a press pack to assist you with the proper messaging and Q & A about the development life cycle. 

In conclusion, our goal for this campaign is to work together to help the community find the resources they need for successful upgrade planning.
If you have suggestions on how else we can assist in this transition, please let us know.

Jess

Thanks
Tom
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Bakual

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Dec 6, 2014, 5:11:28 PM12/6/14
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True. The output itself needs to be adjusted so it looks pretyy. That can be easy solved with two different layouts and a simple switch.

Bakual

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Dec 6, 2014, 5:15:35 PM12/6/14
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The biggest hoster in my country sent such mails half a year ago. I had the pleasure to have a meeting with them afterwards. I'm sure they will not be the only ones who don't want unsupported software on their servers.

Bakual

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Dec 6, 2014, 5:17:01 PM12/6/14
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I agree with One. Having pictures helps. Also having some example post would be great.

Johan Janssens

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Dec 6, 2014, 5:45:19 PM12/6/14
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Hi Tom, 

Thanks for the extra clarification. I did read your original post correctly. I'm also not trying to steer this discussion off topic. Feedback :

A. Migration of users

Users do not migrate to a new release just because the software vendor is telling them to do so. Any migration that is more then a simple upgrade is considered to be 'a risk' and is translated in 'a cost'. For a user to take this step the benefit of migrating needs to outweigh the cost it involves.

The numbers Michael en myself posted above confirm this. Users are in no rush to move to 3.x. Today the market tell us that 30% of new installations are still done on Joomla 2.5, with more then 50% of new installations being on 2.5 a year ago.

Lets look at the benefit vs cost factors that could influence users to migrate. 

1. Benefit 

Joomla 3.x doesn't have any key selling points over Joomla 2.5 that could help users see additional benefit to upgrade. The unique selling point for v3 has been mobile ready and user friendly.  From most users their perspective this is not enough of a reason to migrate. 

- The mobile readyness is only an issue for users on the frontend and can easily be solved using a mobile ready and responsive template. Most if not all Joomla 2.5 templates support are responsive and a large part is mobile ready.

- User friendlyness (in the administrator) is a feature Joomla 3 has failed on. The major feature request today for all our extensions at Joomlatools is the ability to manage everything from the frontend. When asked why, users are telling us the administrator in 2.5 and 3.0 is too complex. 

The Why Migrate document you proposed confirm this. If i'm a user on the fence the document doesn't help me make that decision. It doesn't demonstrate enough benefit. 

2. Cost

Joomla 2.5 is not yet 3 years old. Officially released in January 2012. For many users a time period of less then 3 years is too short to warrant an additional migrate cost. (as Charlie has also pointed out from his own experience) A migration for most means hiring a developer to help them migrate, if often brings additional costs to extensions etc. 

B. EOL of Joomla 2.5

I respectfully doubt that users are aware that Joomla 2.5 is reaching EOL and they know what EOL actually means. It has been published, and talked about for sure. The data speaks different though. 

If still 30% of new installations are done with Joomla 2.5 a month before EOL the only possible conclusion is that : users are not aware and the process to make them aware has failed.


So please, don't try to put my remarks off as 'steering' this thread of topic. I'm trying to constructively provide feedback.  My feedback might not be what you expected. I will re-iterate what I said in my original reply.

I don't think that most people are well aware that Joomla 2.5 is reaching end of life on 31 January 2014 and they fully understand what this means. The data supports this. Can I ask for some prudency before urging people to migrate ? 

I propose to first work on an information campaign about the end of life of 2.5 and what this exactly means while focussing project efforts on reducing the number of new 2.5 installs. If new installs hit below a 10% rate, this would be a good time to work on migrating users to Joomla 3.

Sincerely,

Johan

Johan Janssens

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Dec 6, 2014, 5:46:36 PM12/6/14
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Which hoster is that ? 

Sergio Manzi

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Dec 6, 2014, 6:09:54 PM12/6/14
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Thomas, sure that they were not talking about Joomla 1.5? I received a letter of such tone from Google for an old Joomla 1.5 site I manage in "Google Webamsters Tools".

It seems quite strange that 6 month ago they were willing to get rid of Joomla 2.5...

Michael Babker

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Dec 6, 2014, 6:15:16 PM12/6/14
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Don't know Thomas' situation specifically, but there were other hosts at the beginning of this year who had e-mailed clients stating that if they were running 1.5, their sites were going to be upgraded to 2.5 (which we all know by now isn't as simple as clicking a button) or accounts were going to be suspended; see http://community.joomla.org/blogs/leadership/1796-setting-the-record-straight-for-sites-on-joomla-15.html for Joomla's response to that.  As much as I'd like to say that his note is news to me, sadly it isn't.

In some ways, hosts are right to do so.  Using Rochen as an example (since they are sponsoring Joomla's hosting), their Acceptable Use Policy (http://www.rochen.com/legal/aup/) prohibits the use of vulnerable scripts which "Includes scripts (inclusive of all extensions, add-ons or plug-ins) with known security vulnerabilities. E.g. -- An outdated Joomla or Drupal install. Customer must keep all scripts hosted under their account up-to-date and properly secured.".

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Jacques Rentzke

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Dec 6, 2014, 7:00:20 PM12/6/14
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hi Johan

Jennifer Gress from the Update Working Group wrote this article for the December JCM:

It should give you and idea about what we are aiming at.

In the article she mentions this new Migration portal page on the Joomla wiki:

That splits into these 2 pages:

The aim is to prevent users running into issues due to not planning the upgrade properly, even though for many the process would be very simple.

You'll see that much (or all?) of what you mention is covered there. Marketing is using some of that in visuals, further posts, and a video.

There's also an update included in 2.5.28 that will notify users that 2.5 is reaching EOL, and point them to the help pages for more information.

The Extension developers can use some of what's on the wiki, or what's still to come from Marketing, and use that to inform their users.

Important would be for the extension devs to inform the user how the migration for that dev's extension should be handled. (install latest, or upgrade and then instal 3.x specific, or uninstall and reinstall).

Thanks for the input.

regards,

Jacques Rentzke
Joomla! Update Working Group

George Wilson

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Dec 6, 2014, 10:08:23 PM12/6/14
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A. Migration of users

Users do not migrate to a new release just because the software vendor is telling them to do so. Any migration that is more then a simple upgrade is considered to be 'a risk' and is translated in 'a cost'. For a user to take this step the benefit of migrating needs to outweigh the cost it involves.

The numbers Michael en myself posted above confirm this. Users are in no rush to move to 3.x. Today the market tell us that 30% of new installations are still done on Joomla 2.5, with more then 50% of new installations being on 2.5 a year ago.

I disagree with Joomla 2.5  being 30% of new installations - there's still enough people who download the full pack in order to do update via FTP. We still have bug reports about things that break as a result of that from time to time. I think my suspicion of this is backed up by joomla 2.5 being the platform for only 23% of installs of your software down from 47% of installs you quoted earlier (lies, damn lies and statistics right :p) And even with your extension there will always be people who are doing new functionality to existing sites - so even that figure might be high.

1. Benefit 

Joomla 3.x doesn't have any key selling points over Joomla 2.5 that could help users see additional benefit to upgrade. The unique selling point for v3 has been mobile ready and user friendly.  From most users their perspective this is not enough of a reason to migrate. 

For most users this is always the case. For example from 1.5->2.5 you could argue there were no killer features that would ensure users upgrade. If you say smart search I say tags (or whatever) In the majority of cases the reason for us doing this is to ensure a code base update. To make sure people can run on the latest code base with the improvements that brings - to this extend we induce the requirement for them to upgrade - so extension developers can have an improved API (because at the end of the day the USP for any Joomla is the wide extension base). However in anticipation of the response extension dev's can choose to upgrade at any time extension dev's can't afford to loose income from not supporting actively maintained Joomla versions and the majority of people would rather use core supported methods than 3rd party libraries (Nooku, FOF etc).

 
2. Cost

Joomla 2.5 is not yet 3 years old. Officially released in January 2012. For many users a time period of less then 3 years is too short to warrant an additional migrate cost. (as Charlie has also pointed out from his own experience) A migration for most means hiring a developer to help them migrate, if often brings additional costs to extensions etc. 

I'd suggest that this is by far the most significant factor over the previous ones being mentioned.

Kind Regards,
George

sovainfo

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Dec 7, 2014, 1:34:54 AM12/7/14
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With release of 1.6.0 on 2011-01-08 makes J2.5 available for almost 4 years! (1 month short).

Bakual

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Dec 7, 2014, 9:03:42 AM12/7/14
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https://www.hostpoint.ch/ in the case I was personally involved.
They agreed to tone down the emails and only start with outdated installations. Originally they wanted to do it with all 2.5.x installations. I absolutely understand their reason why they do it. They have a lot of customers with Joomla and they had a lot of hacked 1.5 sites (due to JCE and stuff, not specificially core itself) where their support was simply overrun by those issues.

Bakual

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Dec 7, 2014, 9:04:08 AM12/7/14
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Definitively 2.5. I spoke with them face to face for over an hour :)

Omar

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Dec 7, 2014, 9:34:27 AM12/7/14
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Hi everyone,

 

I cannot speak on behalf of other hosting companies, however, the standard protocol is to provide the best possible service to clients, especially on a shared hosting environment.

 

This is usually to guarantee the server uptime in the highly competitive market.

SERVICE UPTIME GUARANTEE

We offer a Service uptime guarantee of 99.9% (“Service Uptime Guarantee”) of available time per month. If we fail to maintain this Service Uptime Guarantee in a particular month (as solely determined by us), you may contact us and request a credit of 5% of your monthly hosting fee for that month. The credit may be used only for the purchase of further products and services from us, and is exclusive of any applicable taxes. The Service Uptime Guarantee does not apply to service interruptions caused by: (1) periodic scheduled maintenance or repairs we may undertake from time to time; (2) interruptions caused by you from custom scripting, coding or the installation of third-party applications; (3) outages that do not affect the appearance of your website but merely affect access to your website such as FTP and email; (4) causes beyond our control or that are not reasonably foreseeable; and (5) outages related to the reliability of certain programming environments.

That being said, if any site has:

 

1.       Old extensions, component, plugins etc. that can or does cause server performance issues and/or interruptions on the server, the site will automatically get suspended

a.       The client will then be notified to correct the problem (similar concept to Google’s webmaster if your site has a virus/spyware)

 

Typically, we work with clients to upgrade their systems or provide links/resources to Joomla if we cannot do it ourselves.

 

Obviously, if a client is on a dedicated server, the above would not be an issue.  But, who would invest in a dedicated server while still using Joomla 1.5 or 2.5?  That wouldn’t make much sense.

 

Thanks

Omar

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Charlie Heath

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Dec 7, 2014, 10:43:45 AM12/7/14
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Is the API for V4 frozen, or is there a sufficiently documented subset of the admin api that is tagged for support through V4 and an example component that uses that subset?  Developers would then have the ability to add about two years to the expected life of their work at the time they send out their migration instructions for end of support on V2.5.  QA could include that component unit test in build release requirements for future V4  line.  Set end of security support on V2.5 core to release date plus three months from a working V4.0 pre-alpha release supporting that API, cut many extension developer's and QA's work in half.

Charlie Heath
Town Websites

Hannes Papenberg

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Dec 7, 2014, 11:33:28 AM12/7/14
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There is no plan for a Joomla 4.0, let alone anything that could be
released. So there is also no API that you could rely on.

Hannes
> <https://docs.joomla.org/Migration_Step_by_Step_Self_Assessment>
> https://docs.joomla.org/Planning_for_Migration
> *A. Migration of users*
>
> Users do not migrate to a new release just because the
> software vendor is telling them to do so. Any migration that
> is more then a simple upgrade is considered to be 'a risk' and
> is translated in 'a cost'. For a user to take this step the
> benefit of migrating needs to outweigh the cost it involves.
>
> The numbers Michael en myself posted above confirm this. Users
> are in no rush to move to 3.x. Today the market tell us
> that 30% of new installations are still done on Joomla 2.5,
> with more then 50% of new installations being on 2.5 a year ago.
>
> Lets look at the benefit vs cost factors that could influence
> users to migrate.
>
> 1. Benefit
>
> Joomla 3.x doesn't have any key selling points over Joomla 2.5
> that could help users see additional benefit to upgrade. The
> unique selling point for v3 has been mobile ready and user
> friendly <http://www.joomla.org/3/en>. >From most users their
> perspective this is not enough of a reason to migrate.
>
> - The mobile readyness is only an issue for users on the
> frontend and can easily be solved using a mobile ready and
> responsive template. Most if not all Joomla 2.5 templates
> support are responsive and a large part is mobile ready.
>
> - User friendlyness (in the administrator) is a feature Joomla
> 3 has failed on. The major feature request today for all our
> extensions at Joomlatools is the ability to manage everything
> from the frontend. When asked why, users are telling us the
> administrator in 2.5 and 3.0 is too complex.
>
> The /Why Migrate/ document you proposed confirm this. If i'm a
> user on the fence the document doesn't help me make that
> decision. It doesn't demonstrate enough benefit.
>
> 2. Cost
>
> Joomla 2.5 is not yet 3 years old. Officiallyreleased in
> January 2012. For many users a time period of less then 3
> years is too short to warrant an additional migrate cost. (as
> Charlie has also pointed out from his own experience) A
> migration for most means hiring a developer to help them
> migrate, if often brings additional costs to extensions etc.
>
> *B. EOL of Joomla 2.5*
> *
> *
> I respectfully doubt that users are aware that Joomla 2.5 is
> reaching EOL and they know what EOL actually means. It has
> been published, and talked about for sure. The data speaks
> different though.
>
> If still 30% of new installations are done with Joomla 2.5 a
> month before EOL the only possible conclusion is that : *users
> are not aware and the process to make them aware has failed*.
> <http://docs.joomla.org/Why_Migrate>. Furthermore, the
> websites, or Joomla 2.5 still takes for *1/3
> of the market share.*
> <http://joomla.org> :
> http://www.joomla.org/download.html
> <http://docs.joomla.org/Why_Migrate>.
> <http://groups.google.com/group/joomla-dev-cms>.
> For more options, visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/optout
> <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>.
>
>
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> https://groups.google.com/d/optout
> <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>.
>
>
>
>
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Johan Janssens

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Dec 7, 2014, 5:22:47 PM12/7/14
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Hosts are indeed right to do so if the project has abandonned support for a specific release. The more reason in the case of Joomla 2.5 to nor mark it EOL yet.

Johan

Sergio Manzi

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Dec 7, 2014, 5:51:06 PM12/7/14
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Good point, Johan!

Also look here: https://www.snowtechmedia.com/announcement-end-life-announced-joomla-2-5-migration-options/ They already start talking about "Crossgrading" as "The upgrade from Joomla 2.5.x to 3.3.x is a major one. This can be relatively expensive."

Methink we are shooting in our feet...

Don't get me wrong: I (as a sites developer/hoster) have already migrated to Joomla 3 all my websites (well, one remaining...) and I think everybody should start migrating ASAP if has not already done.

But again, "Joomla 2" has had a life cycle of just 2 years (we everywhere say that a normal Joomla Major release lifecycle is 4 years...): 2 years is not enough.

My personal opinion (and I know many will disagree) is that we should support (support = provide security patches and fixes for major, blocking, bugs) two major releases.

Sergio

Johan Janssens

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Dec 7, 2014, 5:52:09 PM12/7/14
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Hi George, 

On Sunday, December 7, 2014 4:08:23 AM UTC+1, George Wilson wrote:
A. Migration of users

Users do not migrate to a new release just because the software vendor is telling them to do so. Any migration that is more then a simple upgrade is considered to be 'a risk' and is translated in 'a cost'. For a user to take this step the benefit of migrating needs to outweigh the cost it involves.
 

The numbers Michael en myself posted above confirm this. Users are in no rush to move to 3.x. Today the market tell us that 30% of new installations are still done on Joomla 2.5, with more then 50% of new installations being on 2.5 a year ago.

I disagree with Joomla 2.5  being 30% of new installations - there's still enough people who download the full pack in order to do update via FTP. We still have bug reports about things that break as a result of that from time to time. I think my suspicion of this is backed up by joomla 2.5 being the platform for only 23% of installs of your software down from 47% of installs you quoted earlier (lies, damn lies and statistics right :p) And even with your extension there will always be people who are doing new functionality to existing sites - so even that figure might be high.

Feel free to disagree. I'm using objective data; nor personal hunches. If the data is wrong, please show me otherwise. Until then I will assume the data is right.
 

1. Benefit 

Joomla 3.x doesn't have any key selling points over Joomla 2.5 that could help users see additional benefit to upgrade. The unique selling point for v3 has been mobile ready and user friendly.  From most users their perspective this is not enough of a reason to migrate. 

For most users this is always the case. For example from 1.5->2.5 you could argue there were no killer features that would ensure users upgrade. If you say smart search I say tags (or whatever) In the majority of cases the reason for us doing this is to ensure a code base update.

I disagree, the unique selling point for 2.5 where a lot bigger then those from 2.5 to 3.x. The biggest selling point for 2.5 was and still is ACL, (albeit very complex and badly executed) it's feature users have been asking for since the birth of Joomla. 

The biggest feature request we extension developers got from users was support for the ACL. Closely followed by a request to support smart search, (but this was never a deal breaker for most users more a nice to have).

Joomla 3 doesn't have any unique selling points. From a users and feature perspective Joomla 3 is a the same as 2.5, with a bit of a different look and feel : http://www.joomla.org/3/en

 
To make sure people can run on the latest code base with the improvements that brings - to this extend we induce the requirement for them to upgrade - so extension developers can have an improved API (because at the end of the day the USP for any Joomla is the wide extension base).

I understand the Joomla projects wants people to upgrade and so do I. I'm not saying you shouldn't move towards that goal. My comments are about how you do this, when you do it and why you do it. 

The Why Migrate message doesn't make sense at all in a time where you still allow people to install new Joomla 2.5 sites today. Your message will frustrate them and frustrated users are not loyal users. 
 
However in anticipation of the response extension dev's can choose to upgrade at any time extension dev's can't afford to loose income from not supporting actively maintained Joomla versions and the majority of people would rather use core supported methods than 3rd party libraries (Nooku, FOF etc).

This has nothing to do with Nooku or FOF. Nooku and FOF are build to make it easy for extensions developers to support various Joomla versions to take the pain away the Joomla project causes them by breaking API's. They are build out of necessity. 

Those developers among us that make a living selling extensions are since long on both 2.5 and 3. Why because we need to, if we don't we loose 50% of the market potential. I suspect that many of use will keep supporting Joomla 2.5 long after the project has marked it EOL. 

At least at Joomlatools we will. We don't force our users to migrate, we help them if they choose to do so. We have tools available to allow people to migrate from as far back as Mambo 4.5.2, and even today we still have people who do this and we are glad to help them with that. 
 
 
2. Cost

Joomla 2.5 is not yet 3 years old. Officially released in January 2012. For many users a time period of less then 3 years is too short to warrant an additional migrate cost. (as Charlie has also pointed out from his own experience) A migration for most means hiring a developer to help them migrate, if often brings additional costs to extensions etc. 

I'd suggest that this is by far the most significant factor over the previous ones being mentioned.

I choose to disagree. Cost is a contributing factor, unique selling points are more important to urge people to migrate. Joomla 3 simple doesn't provide enough unique selling points.

The risk you run into is that under pressure of migration and because of low benefits in Joomla 3 users will choose different systems. This is not a new trend. Market share of Joomla is dropping, today the combined market share of Joomla 2.5 and 3 installations is lower then the total active install base of Joomla 1.5 sites. 

Johan

Johan Janssens

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Dec 7, 2014, 5:57:17 PM12/7/14
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Thanks for the link Sergio. This is a good example of the market at play. The lack of key benefits in Joomla 3 makes it more interesting for people to crossgrade. 

It really doesn't matter what we believe or, we think, ... the market's opinion matters. Today the market is primarily on Joomla 2.5, with 25% of new sites sitll being installed on 2.5 today! 

Our challenge is 'how do we move most of these people to Joomla 3' without frustrating them. The timing in which this happens isn't not important the overall end result is. 

Johan

Hannes Papenberg

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Dec 7, 2014, 5:59:30 PM12/7/14
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The first release of the 2.x release series was 1.6 and that happened in january 2011, giving 2.x a lifetime of 4 years.

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Sergio Manzi

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Dec 7, 2014, 6:02:43 PM12/7/14
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That link, Johan, unhappily pop up in the first page of Google results when you search for "Joomla 2.5 EOL announcement".

https://www.google.it/search?q=joomla+2.5+EOL+announcement&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&gl=US&hl=en
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Johan Janssens

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Dec 7, 2014, 6:05:27 PM12/7/14
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I would not take 1.6 an 1.7 into account. The release date of 2.5 was January 2012. http://www.joomla.org/announcements/release-news/5403-joomla-250-released.html 

Joomla 2.5 was a LTS release (this scheme has since been abandoned) but in light of en EOL of 2.5 it an important aspect to take into account. 

Johan

Sergio Manzi

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Dec 7, 2014, 6:05:40 PM12/7/14
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Hannes, this can be the truth form a technical and "insider" point of view, but hardly anybody who is not a "Joomler" will agree the version 1.6 is the first 2.x version...

NoNumber (Peter van Westen)

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Dec 7, 2014, 6:06:11 PM12/7/14
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"Joomla 3 simple doesn't provide enough unique selling points."

I think the major USP of Joomla 3 is now (will be) that it is still supported by Joomla ;)

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Michael Babker

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Dec 7, 2014, 6:15:16 PM12/7/14
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Maybe the features unique to Joomla 3 aren't attention grabbing for the masses, but they have been in response to changes in the web industry, features that have made things easier for developers, or trying to address some user wants.  Joomla made it easier building responsive sites by adopting a responsive framework with Joomla 3, but as you've pointed out, template clubs could have and probably did do this before 3.0's release.  We've taken steps to improve the underlying platform security, from strengthening password hashing to incorporating support for two factor authentication.  Admittedly, users could probably care less about the latter (actually I've seen a few posts which call for Joomla to remove core support for any Google services because of US politics).  And because of a change contributed by some of our developers, providers like Akeeba have shifted from a self-built upgrade system to using the core platform.

So what do we have left to sell users on?  Two things that immediately come to mind are the CMS roadmap (even if dates need to be adjusted, though a review of it should occur with every release) and the features it proposes and the support lifetime of the 3.x series.  An issue we've all highlighted is the support term for 2.5, 3.x isn't projected to have a similarly short lifetime.

As for future features, I'll be the first to admit that a lot of work has gone into improving the platform for developers but there isn't necessarily any immediate benefit for users in many cases.  They might not care about optimizations in the routing code, but they surely appreciate quicker loading sites; that was a selling point of 3.3.  So how can we sell those developer improvements to users?

I feel like I've gotten far enough off topic for what this thread aims to do, but there are definitely some valid talking and action points to be taken out of the posts that have been made here thus far.
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Sergio Manzi

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Dec 7, 2014, 6:23:04 PM12/7/14
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Michael, I agree to every single point of what you said, but you know that (as an example) in September 2014 a major eCommerce extension developer was still advising his users to upgrade to J! 3 for "performance reasons"?

What do you think final users will do when they will be informed that the platform they have under their feet for their eCommerce businesses has suddently (from their maybe uninformed POW) become EOL, unsupported and passable of being banned from the server they are hosted? They'll jump to Joomla 3? Hardly, I think.

Sergio Manzi

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Dec 7, 2014, 6:26:26 PM12/7/14
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Sorry, read : .... was still advising his users against upgrading to J! 3 ...

Johan Janssens

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Dec 7, 2014, 6:34:20 PM12/7/14
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Joomla 2.5 was released on 24th of January 2012 : http://www.joomla.org/announcements/release-news/5403-joomla-250-released.html and was first 2.x release. Marked an LTS release under the old release scheme or under the new release scheme a major release. 

1. Old release strategy 


Quote "LTS (long term support) releases are supported for twenty-seven months."  This would mean that under the old schema the support for 2.5 would have ended on the 24th of May 2014

2. New release strategy


Quote "All major versions will have a projected life cycle of 4 years or longer from its initial release date" This would mean that under the new schema support for 2.5 would continue until 24th of January 2016. 

Additionally the new policy says : "The EOL (end-of-life) will be published so there is at least 6 months notice that a major version will reach end-of-life. The support period may, at the discretion of the PLT, be extended indefinitely beyond the initial minor release 2-year period."

Based on this one can argue that the 2.5 should be supported for at least another year. If one chooses to not follow that argument the PLT should be asked to consider granting an extension of the support period as per the release strategy. 

Personally I think 2.5 being an important release an both in install base and stratgic use an extension of the support period is warranted and I urge the PLT to consider this carefully before taking further actions. 

Such an extension would give following benefits to the Joomla project :

1. Users are not forced to migrate and less risk or cross-migration to other solutions.
2. Hosters will continue to support Joomla 2.5
3. Joomla project can work on improving the unique selling points for the 3.x series which will allow Joomla to better position itself in the current CMS market and differentiate itself from its competitors.

In relation to 3, a good review and refocus of the roadmap (http://developer.joomla.org/cms/roadmap.html ) is badly needed. Especially features planned for 3.8, 3.9 and 3.10 should be given a higher priority. Additionally a higher set of goals for Joomla 3 should set that will help to keep development on track and help Joomla to stay viable in the next 3-5 years. 

Johan

Sergio Manzi

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Dec 7, 2014, 6:35:32 PM12/7/14
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And the Wikipedia article about Joomla is full of bullshit that it's not doing us any good:
Joomla 3.3 (LTS) released in April 2014 and supported until September 2016
No info about the new release cycle, maybe a tiny external link.

After having read Wikipedia, will I upgrade to Joomla 3: I don't think so.

Michael Babker

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Dec 7, 2014, 7:05:47 PM12/7/14
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If you excuse the retrospectively stupid version number jump between 1.7 and 2.5 and count 1.6 through 2.5 as a complete series (most of the "insiders" do), then under the revised strategy, support for that entire branch technically couldn't end before January 24, 2015 as that would be the 4 year mark of the entire branch.  If you treat it under the new strategy and consider it a major version bump (which it is if you go solely on version numbers), then yes, by the new strategy support should continue through 2015.  At the time we were discussing the revised strategies, we effectively decided that 3.3 would be the first release under the new strategy (since we broke B/C going to it by changing the minimum supported PHP version mid-series) and that 2.5 wouldn't be considered as part of the strategy with regards to the support timeframes.  Hopefully that will shed a little light into some of the thinking (as I remember it, I don't always remember last week very well let alone 9 months ago).

As for the roadmap, I agree totally.  In some of my final discussions with the PLT before stepping out of the role, I shared some ideas for a more formally organized Release Team assigned to each minor release series based on my own experiences trying to herd cats for each of the releases I took a lead in coordinating.  Part of that team's responsibility would be to review the roadmap alongside the PLT to form the goals and visions for each release.  IMO, while the roadmap and project goals should definitely drive that process, the team lead should also be taking into consideration user feedback and current development activities; maybe there's a feature being highly requested by users which isn't a roadmap item but logically fits into Joomla.  Ultimately, the roadmap would be updated and the release's goals would be published just as the previous series was preparing for its stable release (similar to how we announced goals for 3.4 (http://developer.joomla.org/news/583-announcing-joomla-cms-3-4.html) as 3.3 had entered its beta phase).  This would ensure that the roadmap is getting reviewed probably once or twice per year and that clear announcements about development and where we would like contributors to help out are published in a reasonable timeframe.

George Wilson

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Dec 7, 2014, 7:39:12 PM12/7/14
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Johan the same "new roadmap" does also state that it's there to "answer questions of the development and release cycle of for Joomla 3" - not 2.5 - so I'll argue that actually we've allowed users to have increased time from May 24th.

Also RE: your comment about using objective data. The data you have provided does not show new installs of Joomla in any way. The data shows the total number of installs of the full Joomla 3.3.6 package. And for the reasons I described it's obvious that they are different things because people don't all use the full package to make new installs as install by FTP can and definitely does happen. So that makes your figures complete speculation as well.

Kind Regards,
George

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NoNumber (Peter van Westen)

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Dec 7, 2014, 8:23:20 PM12/7/14
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To stay off topic:
I wonder what percentage of downloads are by developers apposed to actual users. I my self have downloaded the full J2.5 package multiple times for testing purposes.
Also, the Joomla download numbers do not take into account actual installs, just downloads. Nowadays a lot of user installs are done via Softaculous and other host provided install options. No idea what percentage.
Having said that, it would be good to have some sort of stats reporting script in the Joomla installer that pushes basic details on install to Joomla.org
That way we do have solid stats for future reference. Would be good to have that in Joomla 2.5.28 too.

Sergio Manzi

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Dec 7, 2014, 8:38:44 PM12/7/14
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As a minimum this should be an opt-in thing, or we'll run into a lot of privacy related issues...

NoNumber (Peter van Westen)

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Dec 7, 2014, 9:00:27 PM12/7/14
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I don't think sending version info causes any privacy issues, The Joomla version check does that too.

Sergio Manzi

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Dec 7, 2014, 9:03:30 PM12/7/14
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I guess you're right. As long as nothing else is sent (i.e. domain name...) it's just a "version check"...

Michael Babker

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Dec 7, 2014, 9:47:13 PM12/7/14
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Stats collection came up last year.  Of what I remember of the discussion, it would have to be an opt-in thing depending on how some laws are interpreted (regardless of what data is collected) and putting it in the installer wouldn't work because of the third party install platforms which bypass our installer, meaning the data would have to be sent in the main app too.  Such a function would also have to be written, the only "phone home" we have is to the update server and it provides zero collectable data the way JUpdater functions (GET request to remote server, responds with an XML file and lets local install figure out what to do with it).

Johan Janssens

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Dec 7, 2014, 10:12:57 PM12/7/14
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Hi Michael,

I don't think the thread is going off topic. The original request was : "what resources you need for the final release of 2.5"

I believe that we have demonstrated that it would be in everyone best interest if 2.5.28 would not be the 'final release of 2.5' and the support period would be extended. This is also what the new 4 year release strategy suggests (see my lower reply) and this request embraces the market reality of Joomla today.

As for your question.  Users don't care about changes in the web industry, a user has no idea what the web is capable of doing. Users care about their problem and they are looking for fast and easy solutions.

Security, performance, mobile ready ... developer improvements are all all great things and needed enchantments. None of them are unique selling points. Users expect these from any system implicitly. Ask any user what makes Joomla stand out and see what he answers you. I bet that none of them will mention any of those. They are implied.

What you need to sell users on ? Listen to your users, they will tell you. What users are telling us today : Joomla 3 administration is too complex. Too many options,  and settings. Clunky workflows, an overly complex ACL system ... 

What users need : Power in simplicity (which once was Mambo's biggest strength).   

Johan
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Johan Janssens

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Dec 7, 2014, 10:29:54 PM12/7/14
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On Monday, December 8, 2014 1:05:47 AM UTC+1, Michael Babker wrote:
If you excuse the retrospectively stupid version number jump between 1.7 and 2.5 and count 1.6 through 2.5 as a complete series (most of the "insiders" do), then under the revised strategy, support for that entire branch technically couldn't end before January 24, 2015 as that would be the 4 year mark of the entire branch.  If you treat it under the new strategy and consider it a major version bump (which it is if you go solely on version numbers), then yes, by the new strategy support should continue through 2015.  At the time we were discussing the revised strategies, we effectively decided that 3.3 would be the first release under the new strategy (since we broke B/C going to it by changing the minimum supported PHP version mid-series) and that 2.5 wouldn't be considered as part of the strategy with regards to the support timeframes.  Hopefully that will shed a little light into some of the thinking (as I remember it, I don't always remember last week very well let alone 9 months ago).

I would base my approach on user perception. Joomla 2.5 was announced as an LTS release, aka a major release. This is how the market sees this release. The recent communication about major releases gives it a support period of 4 years. Adopting this in a retro-active way, makes most sense and is least confusing.

I would also put it in retrospect that the end of life of Joomla 1.5 was September 2012. Your effectively putting another LTS at end of life only 2 years after the previous one, this doesn't make much sense, 4 years after seems like a much better and easier to explain target. Again this would be 2016. 
 

As for the roadmap, I agree totally.  In some of my final discussions with the PLT before stepping out of the role, I shared some ideas for a more formally organized Release Team assigned to each minor release series based on my own experiences trying to herd cats for each of the releases I took a lead in coordinating.  Part of that team's responsibility would be to review the roadmap alongside the PLT to form the goals and visions for each release.  IMO, while the roadmap and project goals should definitely drive that process, the team lead should also be taking into consideration user feedback and current development activities; maybe there's a feature being highly requested by users which isn't a roadmap item but logically fits into Joomla.  Ultimately, the roadmap would be updated and the release's goals would be published just as the previous series was preparing for its stable release (similar to how we announced goals for 3.4 (http://developer.joomla.org/news/583-announcing-joomla-cms-3-4.html) as 3.3 had entered its beta phase).  This would ensure that the roadmap is getting reviewed probably once or twice per year and that clear announcements about development and where we would like contributors to help out are published in a reasonable timeframe.

That's a good proposal indeed. I'm totally missing any form of user focus (and developer) focus in the roadmap.
A 'light' core, what does that do for me as a user ? Nothing really. That roadmap and strategy for Joomla needs a lot of work if you want to inspire trust with users. 

Johan
Message has been deleted

Johan Janssens

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Dec 7, 2014, 10:36:25 PM12/7/14
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Looks like it indeed.

NoNumber (Peter van Westen)

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Dec 7, 2014, 11:06:44 PM12/7/14
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Just to add the install numbers from my side (NoNumber extensions).

Extension installs (so new installs, not updates):
Joomla 2.5: 17%
Joomla 3: 83%

Extension updates:
Joomla 2.5: 34%
Joomla 3: 66%

I expect the new installs of my extensions to also be on existing Joomla setups, not just on brand new installs.
So going by these numbers, Joomla 2.5 only accounts for about 15% of new Joomla install. That is no where near the 35% mentioned earlier.

Of course, the download numbers of my extensions only say so much. The actual numbers will remain a mystery.

דניאל הפונדק

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Dec 8, 2014, 1:11:02 AM12/8/14
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To compare,
Drupal 6 was released early 2008, same as 1.5. It is still supported - https://www.drupal.org/d6-lts-support
Joomla 2.5 was released in 2012 and is EOL 2014 ???

Which platform seems more stable and cheaper to maintain a website on?

wdburgdorf

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Dec 8, 2014, 3:48:23 AM12/8/14
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I am largely with Johan here, wishing that the support for 2.5, at least security fixes, be extended. Of course I wish my clients let me upgrade their sites. I know 3.x is much better, but mostly from a devs point of view, and for a few end users who work a lot on their content. But how to sell to the average site owner?
Imagine a chat with a client: Dev: "We need to upgrade your site." Client: "What's my advantage?" Dev: "None, really, you'll see no difference. Will cost you $1000. Ok?" Client: "Sure! Thank you!"

And so on.

Whether J2.5 has initially been released 2 or 4 years ago makes no big difference IMHO. I launched my most recent 2.5 site in May 2013 - had to use 2.5 because the extensions we needed did not yet support 3.x then (there were 3.x versions, but they were not compatible with each other when we started development in early 2013 ...). So how to convince the client to fork out a lot of money again after little more than a year? Alternative: me working several days for free (yes, upgrading a complex site will take days.)

Please extend, if at all possible.


 
2. Cost

Joomla 2.5 is not yet 3 years old. Officially released in January 2012. For many users a time period of less then 3 years is too short to warrant an additional migrate cost. (as Charlie has also pointed out from his own experience) A migration for most means hiring a developer to help them migrate, if often brings additional costs to extensions etc. 

>> I'd suggest that this is by far the most significant factor over the previous ones being mentioned.

>I choose to disagree. Cost is a contributing factor, unique selling points are more important to urge people to migrate. Joomla 3 simple doesn't provide enough unique selling points.

Hannes Papenberg

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Dec 8, 2014, 4:32:19 AM12/8/14
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What bothers me right now is, that we are having this discussion now, 3
weeks before the actual date and not over half a year ago, when the
announcenment was made
(http://developer.joomla.org/news/583-announcing-joomla-cms-3-4.html) or
over a year ago, when the discussion about this actually happened:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/joomla-dev-cms/release$20strategy/joomla-dev-cms/sqYQ9qcFJnY/MokvN3ECJwIJ

The EOL of 2.5 has been discussed pretty thoroughly and more
importantly, we have actively been communicating this to the world and
you come around the corner NOW to tell us that it's too soon.

Joomla 3.x has enough selling points to warrant an upgrade. Lots and
lots of bug fixes that could not be implemented into the 2.5 branch,
lots and lots of new features, more speed, better language
implementation, easier to program for, etc. Yes, its not a quantum leap
like from the brothers Wright to the current Airbus A380, but no one
expects that and no one promised that. Rather, we are talking about the
difference between iPhone 4 and iPhone 6. Incidentally, that is the same
timeframe that we are talking about and for some reason, people seem to
be okay with forking over 800 Euros for a new iPhone that has the same
selling points as the old one.

Hannes

Am 08.12.2014 um 09:48 schrieb wdburgdorf:
>
> I am largely with Johan here, wishing that the support for 2.5, at
> least security fixes, be extended. Of course I wish my clients let me
> upgrade their sites. I know 3.x is much better, but mostly from a devs
> point of view, and for a few end users who work a lot on their
> content. But how to sell to the average site owner?
> Imagine a chat with a client: /Dev:/ "We need to upgrade your site."
> /Client: /"What's my advantage?" /Dev: /"None, really, you'll see no
> difference. Will cost you $1000. Ok?" /Client:/ "Sure! Thank you!"
>
> And so on.
>
> Whether J2.5 has initially been released 2 or 4 years ago makes no big
> difference IMHO. I launched my most recent 2.5 site in May 2013 - had
> to use 2.5 because the extensions we needed did not yet support 3.x
> then (there were 3.x versions, but they were not compatible with each
> other when we started development in early 2013 ...). So how to
> convince the client to fork out a lot of money again after little more
> than a year? Alternative: me working several days for free (yes,
> upgrading a complex site will take days.)
>
> Please extend, if at all possible.
>
>
>
>
> 2. Cost
>
> Joomla 2.5 is not yet 3 years old. Officiallyreleased in January
> 2012. For many users a time period of less then 3 years is too
> short to warrant an additional migrate cost. (as Charlie has also
> pointed out from his own experience) A migration for most means
> hiring a developer to help them migrate, if often brings
> additional costs to extensions etc.
>
>
> >> I'd suggest that this is by far the most significant factor over
> the previous ones being mentioned.
>
> >I choose to disagree. Cost is a contributing factor, unique selling
> points are more important to urge people to migrate. Joomla 3 simple
> doesn't provide enough unique selling points.
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Chris Davenport

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Dec 8, 2014, 4:53:41 AM12/8/14
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Just because we're ending official support for 2.5 does not mean that anyone's website will suddenly stop working or that it will be impossible to get support for 2.5 in the future.  There are plenty of 2.5 sites still out there (I even have a couple myself) and there are plenty of people in the community still willing to provide support for those sites.

If a security issue were to be found in 2.5 some time in the next 2 or 3 years (at least), I strongly suspect that someone in the community will provide a fix, for free, on our forum somewhere.  I'm sure that the same would be true if a security issue were to be found in 1.5 which is now many years past its EOL.

Indeed, I would see this as an opportunity for web shops to offer extended support for these old platforms.  The risk of them having to actually do any work is low and the reward is that they get an income from keeping an eye on their client's sites and monitoring the usual sources for security issues (which they should be doing anyway).

People with 2.5 sites don't need to drop everything and upgrade now, but they should be planning to upgrade as soon as they can.  The sky is not going to fall.  It is not the end of the world.  They chose to procrastinate, which is human nature after all, but the consequences are not horrific.

The EOL date was set a long time ago, it should not be a surprise to anybody and I see no reason to extend it.

Just my personal opinion.

Chris.


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Bakual

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Dec 8, 2014, 5:01:51 AM12/8/14
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Sergio: 1.6 WAS the first release of the 2.x series. The chosen numbering is bullshit but Hannes is absolutely correct.


Am Montag, 8. Dezember 2014 00:05:40 UTC+1 schrieb Sergio Manzi:
Hannes, this can be the truth form a technical and "insider" point of view, but hardly anybody who is not a "Joomler" will agree the version 1.6 is the first 2.x version...

On 2014-12-07 23:59, Hannes Papenberg wrote:

The first release of the 2.x release series was 1.6 and that happened in january 2011, giving 2.x a lifetime of 4 years.

Am 07.12.2014 23:51 schrieb "Sergio Manzi" <s...@smz.it>:
Good point, Johan!

Also look here: https://www.snowtechmedia.com/announcement-end-life-announced-joomla-2-5-migration-options/ They already start talking about "Crossgrading" as "The upgrade from Joomla 2.5.x to 3.3.x is a major one. This can be relatively expensive."

Methink we are shooting in our feet...

Don't get me wrong: I (as a sites developer/hoster) have already migrated to Joomla 3 all my websites (well, one remaining...) and I think everybody should start migrating ASAP if has not already done.

But again, "Joomla 2" has had a life cycle of just 2 years (we everywhere say that a normal Joomla Major release lifecycle is 4 years...): 2 years is not enough.

My personal opinion (and I know many will disagree) is that we should support (support = provide security patches and fixes for major, blocking, bugs) two major releases.

Sergio


On 2014-12-07 23:22, Johan Janssens wrote:
Hosts are indeed right to do so if the project has abandonned support for a specific release. The more reason in the case of Joomla 2.5 to nor mark it EOL yet.

Johan
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Leo Lammerink

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Dec 8, 2014, 6:13:15 AM12/8/14
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I also do not believe this discussion after we have had a full Upgrade
working Group (Lead by Jaques Rentzke) documenting all and working very
hard for over 60 days to create proper documentation (Jenn Gress:
Kudos), a marketing campaign is completely developed aorund EOL of J25
and now we start discussing that again here at this here? Don't we have
anything better tot do? This was a past station so let it be please?
Where have the oponents been on Slack for the past month's????

Leo

Sergio Manzi

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Dec 8, 2014, 6:29:40 AM12/8/14
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Thomas, I know! It is not to me that this must be explained: this I must explain to the owner of the site I originally developed with J! 1.5 in 2011 (I didn't feel confident to use a non-LTS release and a needed extension wasn't available for 1.6), then I asked money to migrate to 2.5 in 2012 and now I have to ask more money for upgrading to 3.x. For what (from his POW)? N.o.t.h.i.n.g.!
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George Wilson

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Dec 8, 2014, 8:41:43 AM12/8/14
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If you're basing this on your data. Then you said yourself

"1 Dec 2014 23% of installs where on Joomla 2.5"

which ties in relatively nicely with Peter's 17% suggesting the number is closer 20% than 30% and the 20% figure still doesn't include the number of people doing new features on existing sites.

Kind Regards,
George

On 8 December 2014 at 03:33, Johan Janssens <jjan...@gmail.com> wrote:
George the data is our own internal data and it shows 'new' installs of our extensions on Joomla sites. It doesn't show Joomla installs. A new install is an installation of our extension on a site that didn't have the extension installed before, if so it would be an 'upgrade'. 

Johan

Michael Babker

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Dec 8, 2014, 9:00:03 AM12/8/14
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On Sun, Dec 7, 2014 at 10:12 PM, Johan Janssens <jjan...@gmail.com> wrote:
As for your question.  Users don't care about changes in the web industry, a user has no idea what the web is capable of doing. Users care about their problem and they are looking for fast and easy solutions.

Security, performance, mobile ready ... developer improvements are all all great things and needed enchantments. None of them are unique selling points. Users expect these from any system implicitly. Ask any user what makes Joomla stand out and see what he answers you. I bet that none of them will mention any of those. They are implied.

I've always felt this is a problem.  WordPress has adopted the approach that users should not know the underlying platform their site is running on; they shouldn't know or care their sites may be on outdated PHP versions or on what informed folks would consider crap hosts.  To me that's dangerous; if a site owner is just throwing content up without the intent of maintaining that site (ensuring it stays current in terms of content and underlying platform), are they really doing themselves any favors?  With all of the high visibility security issues over the last few years, I would seriously hope users have a higher concern about security.  I'm obviously living in a dream world with those types of hopes though.  The reality is WordPress has it right; just make it work so the user doesn't have to be involved with their site upkeep, nor do they need to be aware of what version of the platform their running, or even if their host is using still maintained PHP versions (their PHP 5.2 and 5.3 install base makes the system administrator in me want to cry).

What you need to sell users on ? Listen to your users, they will tell you. What users are telling us today : Joomla 3 administration is too complex. Too many options,  and settings. Clunky workflows, an overly complex ACL system ... 

What users need : Power in simplicity (which once was Mambo's biggest strength).

By giving users flexibility, we've created an absolute nightmare.  Settings for almost everything you can imagine, and things that just make you want to scream.  We really need to stop adding options and look at our existing inventory; what could truly go away?

Being frank, Joomla has lost its innovation.  What has truly changed in the platform since the Mambo days?  A shift to OOP practices and some new paint on the admin panel.  Sure, we gave users a more flexible ACL system, but how much effort has gone into improving it since the initial rollout?  Sure, we've added some new components; Smart Search, Tags, and Content History being the main three, but what did those features do for our userbase?  There hasn't been a feature introduced into Joomla, as a user or a developer, that has made me want to drop everything in quite some time, and I would start to worry about that.

On Sun, Dec 7, 2014 at 10:29 PM, Johan Janssens <jjan...@gmail.com> wrote:
I would also put it in retrospect that the end of life of Joomla 1.5 was September 2012. Your effectively putting another LTS at end of life only 2 years after the previous one, this doesn't make much sense, 4 years after seems like a much better and easier to explain target. Again this would be 2016.

That was a pitfall of the old strategy and badly needed to change.  Had it not and we stuck with the schedule it put us on, we would have released 3.5 in April/May as the LTS of 3.x and 4.0 would have been released in September/October.  Had that happened, today we'd be discussing whether to drop support for a third major release series; I'm glad that isn't the discussion we are having.

The most compelling reason to give 2.5 any sort of extended support is marketshare.  By that argument, 1.5 support should have never ended.  In truth, I feel like the project needs to put all of its focus into its current release and creating an effective plan for the next major release, whenever it may happen.  While the resources to support 2.5 would be minimal at this point (*IF* I were to suggest extending 2.5 support, it would be for security issues only; 2.5 is 2 years and 11 months old this month), it would really set a bad precedent if we said today that we're extending support.  The same discussion would happen again, only when that happens, the argument "you've extended it once, why not now" will weigh very heavily on those discussions.  There were a lot of "good" things done during the branch's lifetime, likewise a lot of "bad".  Let's move forward, the project really needs to get to a forward thinking state and stop riding the coattails of its own legacy.

NoNumber (Peter van Westen)

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Dec 8, 2014, 9:13:49 AM12/8/14
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Just a thought...
Why do we need to put energy in trying to convince users to upgrade to Joomla 3 anyway?
Just let Joomla .5 and Joomla 2.5 websites live on as they already do. Just don't put any extra effort in offering updates and development.
There will be websites running on Joomla 2.5 in 3 years from know, and probably also some Joomla 1.5 sites.
What do we care?
The extension developers will stop their support for Joomla 2.5 when it fits them (when keeping support hurts their business more than it profits). And website developers will stop using Joomla 2.5 when it is no longer workable (like Joomla 1.5 is now) because of lack of extensions and changing server specs.

So my question is: why worry about trying to inform people about the need to upgrade at all?
Simply concentrate on making Joomla 3/4 as bad ass as possible and push it into this new era.
And concentrate on marketing Joomla 3.

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Sergio Manzi

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Dec 8, 2014, 9:24:28 AM12/8/14
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Peter, I agree 100%, but the problem is "security fixes" and those hosts (Thomas cited a case, but there will be others) not willing to keep on their servers web sites using a code base for which security fixes are not being released anymore.
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Sergio Manzi

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Dec 8, 2014, 9:27:45 AM12/8/14
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Thinking it better... there is a businesses opportunity for hosting companies accepting to keep 2.5 on their servers..... hmmm....  interesting! :-)

NoNumber (Peter van Westen)

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Dec 8, 2014, 9:28:27 AM12/8/14
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Yes,so that will send the message to users that way. If you choose to not update your site every so many years, you will also not care about crappy hosts and potential security issues.
Do we care that Joomla 1.5 sites get hacked? Should we?
Let hosts do what they think is good. People can change host in 5 minutes.

wdburgdorf

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Dec 8, 2014, 9:48:00 AM12/8/14
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Hannes and Leo, I totally agree with you, 3.x is a great improvement and it is late to oppose the EOL now. But: However much better 3.x is than 2.x, the average end user sees no difference at all. All he sees most of the time is the frontend. No change - if all goes well with the upgrade ... So all the cool improvements you mention, Hannes, I myself care a lot, but what's it to the paying client?
Being late: When it was announced, I had no idea how difficult it would be to upgrade a site. It's a huge amount of work (I actually already hired other developers for support for one particularly difficult site). And now I see how much I'd have to charge my clients and even if all clients agreed, I could never make it until the end of the year. That's just me, so please ignore me, if you like, I see it's very much my own fault. But I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels he's getting in trouble now - if you don't extend.
And of course I don't mean provide full support indefinitely - just security fixes for a "short while" (half year?). Would give us more time to convince clients and to do the actual upgrades. If nothing else, it would at least appease edgy hosters ...

Hannes Papenberg

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Dec 8, 2014, 10:08:59 AM12/8/14
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I have several sites that I still have to move from 2.5 to 3.x right
now. I wont make it this year either. But I also wont break out with a
sweat because this is not a year-2000-issue where all sites on 2.5 will
explode on January 1st 00:01. I communicated a few weeks ago to my
clients that we have to migrate to 3.x and what would be necessary to do
that. We are using that opportunity to clean up some old mess that is in
the sites, considering that they've been moved from Joomla 1.5 to 2.5
and now to 3.x and it will most likely take until March to get this all
done. But that is okay. Because if we are honest to each other, Joomla
itself hasn't had a really serious security issue in years. (At least it
feels like that. Maybe I'm missing something) All the hacked websites
that I repaired or gave advice on were hacked through some third party
extension. Drupal and Wordpress had far more and far worse security
issues in their core than Joomla since at least Joomla 2.5.0. I
personally am very confident with the Joomla codebase in terms of
security and that said, I think your main problem will not be an
unsupported Joomla 2.5, but extension developers dropping support for
their code and their stuff not being supported anymore.

What I'm trying to say is: Joomla is not really the issue and its not
really bad if you take your time to migrate.
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Leo Lammerink

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Dec 8, 2014, 10:22:37 AM12/8/14
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I do really agree with Hannes (and that does not happen that often) and
I also understand your concerns. Sometimes a (mini)migration of Joomla
2.5 to Joomla 3.3.6 can be a major PITA as we see each day. We currently
do about 12 upgrades/migrations a week and where we sometimes only need
30 minutes it normally takes a few days to a few weeks sometimes with
extensive extension suites (take a site with JomSocial, Mosets, AEC all
combined) and causes major headaches on occasion especially where
developers like iJoomla with JomSocial (no critics just facts) drop a
lot of extension and plugin compatibility from J25 to J33 and you have
to exclude them one by one before you can upgrade (mini-Migrate) -->huge
discovery tour!

That's why it is good that so much attention is given to future releases
into backward compatibility. If only extension developers would do the
same life would be so much easier for the end-user (but bad for our
business ;-)

Leo

NoNumber (Peter van Westen)

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Dec 8, 2014, 10:54:08 AM12/8/14
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This is all I will be doing in informing people about Joomla 2.5 => Joomla 3.
http://www.nonumber.nl/go-pro/pre-sale-questions#12_How-can-I-upgrade-from-Joomla-2-5-to-Joomla-3


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Jacques Rentzke

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Dec 8, 2014, 11:29:01 AM12/8/14
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Thank you Peter

I think that's exactly the type of page all extension developers should put up on their sites. 

In most cases (hopefully) it would be a simple:
1) follow these steps with my extensions before you upgrade to 3.x. 
2) here's a link with more information and help with upgrading/migrating Joomla from 2.5 to 3.x

The best page to link to is perhaps the start one:

But some might prefer (like the NoNumber example) to link deeper into the docs.
(we will try to add ways for the user to get back to the start of that "section" if they want to)

For those who have not had a look at those new pages:
They provide a lot of detailed information that will help prevent issues during upgrading. 
 
Jacques

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Beat

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Dec 8, 2014, 5:22:48 PM12/8/14
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I think that Johan has several good points. (even though i hate to support old versions, specially with different html markups in my extensions).

We are missing the Joomla 2.5 phase-out phase before EOL. Or actually, we are starting the 2.5 EOL marketing WAY too late.

Let's face it: We are a year late with communication, and if we don't want to shoot in our foots, let's adapt the schedule: 2.5.28 will still be the last bug-fixing and mini-features release for 2.5 series, and:
1. Joomla 2.5 disappears from j.org homepage downloads (except for an "old versions" link).
2. We continue with ONLY security releases fixing medium and high level vulnerabilities for another year at least to give people enough time to plan their upgrade.
3. We drive a positive communication about Joomla's long-term commitment.

Maybe this phase could be called "Security-maintained-EOL-phase" ?

I believe that providing hotfixes for major and medium security issues during the first years of EOL status is a good step towards our existing user-base.

If we have 40% of actively-supported Joomla versions installed-base being 2.5-versions, doing a sudden EOL now would be taken as being very unfriendly not only by those 40%, but also by the 60% remaining ones. And that's not talking about all the extra remaining (now mostly secured) 50% Joomla 1.5 sites.

Extended security releases happened for Joomla 1.5 by the community (e.g. https://github.com/PhilETaylor/Joomla1.5.999 )

Earlier it happened for Joomla 1.0 too (and actually, there are secured 1.0s running fine on php 5.4 still floating around).

Let's be friendly to our biggest asset: Our existing Community that is actively using Joomla, and fix our old-versions upgrade philosophy:

1. Extended EOL-Security phase-out phase
2. Develop and/or make available for free a good upgrade tool for old Joomla versions
3. Communicate that we *care for our installed users-base* and won't let fall 40% of our installed base of supported releases overnight.

A last thought:

Even Microsoft could not EOL overnight with Windows XP for years. Is Joomla in a position to slam 40% of its users-base ?

It's ok, to tell people 15 days before the planed EOL "Ok guys, we got it: you need more time to upgrade, and want to stay secure with Joomla until then. We heard you, and we won't let you down with security releases".

But we should decide and communicate within the next 10 days, ideally at Joomla 2.5.28 release announcement...

Sorry to be quickly reacting here, having really little time available this busy end of year.

Best Regards,
Beat

brian teeman

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Dec 8, 2014, 5:31:41 PM12/8/14
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Everyone makes good points but the reality is that it is a really very simple issue and just down to semantics.

EOL is just the wrong term as it is sending the wrong message. The message should be that this is the last release of 2.5  but not that your site will stop working or that it is hackable.  I'm not sure what it should be but End Of Life is just too extreme

My 3c

Omar

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Dec 8, 2014, 5:58:32 PM12/8/14
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How about just saying End of Support or End of Service?

 

Obviously, it does need an end to an existing system in order to have any advancement.

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Jennifer Gress

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Dec 8, 2014, 6:37:39 PM12/8/14
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"End of Official Support" is what was talked about long ago in the update working group. It gives flexibility so that if someone in the community wanted to pick up doing security patches or whatever for 2.5 they could still do so. It's just "official support" (meaning the PLT maintaining it) that will end. I also stated that whatever is phrase is used it needs to be defined and explained so that people understand what it means. Their sites aren't going to "die" on 1/1/15.

Thank you, Brian for saying this. It was almost exactly the same time I was saying it in the update group. <twighlight zone theme song>

brian teeman

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Dec 8, 2014, 6:56:39 PM12/8/14
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Just a headsup that if you want to change from EOL it needs to be done yesterday or joomla will ship with a plugin called EOL

Michael Babker

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Dec 8, 2014, 6:59:09 PM12/8/14
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The plugin is named "End of Support" notifier (plg_quickicon_eosnotify).  That's OK.

On Mon, Dec 8, 2014 at 6:56 PM, brian teeman <joom...@googlemail.com> wrote:
Just a headsup that if you want to change from EOL it needs to be done yesterday or joomla will ship with a plugin called EOL
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Jennifer Gress

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Dec 8, 2014, 7:01:07 PM12/8/14
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it says end of support december 31, 2014 so no worries there. it doesn't say end of life. https://github.com/joomla/joomla-cms/pull/5063

good to bring it up and make sure though. thank you. :)

Omar

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Dec 8, 2014, 7:09:31 PM12/8/14
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Hi all,

 

I remember sending something like this a while back, but it’s a good idea to revisit again:

http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/lifecycle

Every Windows product has a lifecycle. The lifecycle begins when a product is released and ends when it's no longer supported. Knowing key dates in this lifecycle helps you make informed decisions about when to upgrade or make other changes to your software. Here are the rights and limits of the Windows lifecycle.

End of support

End of support refers to the date when Microsoft no longer provides automatic fixes, updates, or online technical assistance. This is the time to make sure you have the latest available update or service pack installed. Without Microsoft support, you will no longer receive security updates that can help protect your PC from harmful viruses, spyware, and other malicious software that can steal your personal information. For more information go to Microsoft Support Lifecycle .

I hope this helps.  I think it addresses most, if not all of the issues of what’s being discussed in terms of EOL and migrations, updates, etc.

 

Thanks

Omar

 

 

From: joomla-...@googlegroups.com [mailto:joomla-...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Michael Babker
Sent: Monday, December 8, 2014 6:59 PM
To: joomla-...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [jcms] Re: Joomla Extension Developers, what resources do you need for the final release of 2.5

 

The plugin is named "End of Support" notifier (plg_quickicon_eosnotify).  That's OK.

To post to this group, send email to joomla-...@googlegroups.com.

Sergio Manzi

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Dec 8, 2014, 7:23:50 PM12/8/14
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Sorry, but "End of support" is exactly the message we don't want to give if we adopt this new revised strategy proposed by Beat (and which I agree with....)

Let's call it EOD: End Of Development

Sergio Manzi

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Dec 8, 2014, 7:26:04 PM12/8/14
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Then' we'll play all the bells and whistles with the "Move on" (not exactly that.. can't remember right now) strategy...

Michael Babker

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Dec 8, 2014, 7:27:52 PM12/8/14
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Until decided otherwise by the PLT, right now the plan is for End of Support.

Sergio Manzi

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Dec 8, 2014, 7:28:27 PM12/8/14
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I said... IF

Town Websites

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Dec 8, 2014, 10:36:24 PM12/8/14
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The word legacy might be what you want to use for end of life security support.    Debian calls their ‘After end of life’ security support LTS (obviously not the right term for Joomla) , and that support extends 20 months after the ‘end of life’ on Debian Squeeze, through Feb of 16 when end of life was June 1st ‘14.

 

I’ll have 50 or so hours I could offer to an official support team for V2.5 should I be able to postpone platform-driven migrations next year.

 

Charlie Heath

Town Websites

 

 

 

From: joomla-...@googlegroups.com [mailto:joomla-...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Beat
Sent: Monday, December 08, 2014 5:23 PM
To: joomla-...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [jcms] Re: Joomla Extension Developers, what resources do you need for the final release of 2.5

 

I think that Johan has several good points. (even though i hate to support old versions, specially with different html markups in my extensions).

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Beat

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Dec 9, 2014, 4:37:46 AM12/9/14
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On Tuesday, December 9, 2014 4:36:24 AM UTC+1, Charlie Heath wrote:
I’ll have 50 or so hours I could offer to an official support team for V2.5 should I be able to postpone platform-driven migrations next year.

Thanks Charlie!
Hope PLT will consider your generous and committing offer !


To clarify again: My proposal for high-security-releases only above is a personal proposal.


The message of Joomla 2.5.28 here:
https://github.com/joomla/joomla-cms/pull/5063/files#diff-57c6b000b0b38e4913ffc021400e622cR6

is great, but giving in-software notification of 20- days will probably feel a bit short for most users (don't forget that most users install and upgrade through their hosting panel, and don't visit joomla.org as a priority every day).

I have seen such messages in software, and a usual advance notice is at least 6 months if not a year. Specially for prominently visible messages like this one.


On Tuesday, December 9, 2014 12:37:39 AM UTC+1, Jennifer Gress wrote:
 <twighlight zone theme song>


And users might play song in their head "Oh Joomla, don't let me down" ;-)

Finally, for those wondering why I didn't react a year ago: It's because with the plan, at that time, I didn't expect Joomla 2.5 to be promoted as prominently as Joomla 3 until its last day, nor did I expect that people misunderstood the messages, and would be still massively downloading J 2.5 up to 20 days before phase-out. Ok, I didn't voice my surprise loudly, even though I was more and more surprised of that fact on the j.org homepage. :-)

Best Regards,
Beat
http://www.joomlapolis.com/

Bakual

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Dec 9, 2014, 4:45:22 PM12/9/14
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If someone wants to form a team which is going to maintain the 2.5 branch, feel free to do so and fork the repo.
But don't call it "official" and don't ask for anything from PLT.

The date is set and it's way to late now to change that.
I bet that in three months, the market share of J2.5 is massively lower than now. Not the least thanks to marketing. Those who still run 2.5 by then, just don't care about security at all.

Hannes Papenberg

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Dec 9, 2014, 6:17:52 PM12/9/14
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Those most likely also haven't updated their site since they first
installed it.

Am 09.12.2014 um 22:45 schrieb Bakual:
> If someone wants to form a team which is going to maintain the 2.5
> branch, feel free to do so and fork the repo.
> But don't call it "official" and don't ask for anything from PLT.
>
> The date is set and it's way to late now to change that.
> I bet that in three months, the market share of J2.5 is massively
> lower than now. Not the least thanks to marketing. Those who still run
> 2.5 by then, just don't care about security at all.
>
> Am Dienstag, 9. Dezember 2014 10:37:46 UTC+1 schrieb Beat:
>
>
> On Tuesday, December 9, 2014 4:36:24 AM UTC+1, Charlie Heath wrote:
>
> I’ll have 50 or so hours I could offer to an official support
> team for V2.5 should I be able to postpone platform-driven
> migrations next year.
>
>
> Thanks Charlie!
> Hope PLT will consider your generous and committing offer !
>
>
> To clarify again: My proposal for high-security-releases only
> above is a personal proposal.
>
>
> The message of Joomla 2.5.28 here:
> https://github.com/joomla/joomla-cms/pull/5063/files#diff-57c6b000b0b38e4913ffc021400e622cR6
> <https://github.com/joomla/joomla-cms/pull/5063/files#diff-57c6b000b0b38e4913ffc021400e622cR6>
>
> is great, but giving in-software notification of 20- days will
> probably feel a bit short for most users (don't forget that most
> users install and upgrade through their hosting panel, and don't
> visit joomla.org <http://joomla.org> as a priority every day).
>
> I have seen such messages in software, and a usual advance notice
> is at least 6 months if not a year. Specially for prominently
> visible messages like this one.
>
>
> On Tuesday, December 9, 2014 12:37:39 AM UTC+1, Jennifer Gress wrote:
>
> <twighlight zone theme song>
>
>
> And users might play song in their head "Oh Joomla, don't let me
> down" ;-)
>
> Finally, for those wondering why I didn't react a year ago: It's
> because with the plan, at that time, I didn't expect Joomla 2.5 to
> be promoted as prominently as Joomla 3 until its last day, nor did
> I expect that people misunderstood the messages, and would be
> still massively downloading J 2.5 up to 20 days before phase-out.
> Ok, I didn't voice my surprise loudly, even though I was more and
> more surprised of that fact on the j.org <http://j.org> homepage. :-)
>
> Best Regards,
> Beat
> http://www.joomlapolis.com/
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "Joomla! CMS Development" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
> an email to joomla-dev-cm...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:joomla-dev-cm...@googlegroups.com>.
> To post to this group, send email to joomla-...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:joomla-...@googlegroups.com>.

Bakual

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Dec 10, 2014, 5:43:19 AM12/10/14
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Exactly. Changes are we will see almost no 2.5.28 but a lot of lower 2.5.x :D

Johan Janssens

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Dec 20, 2014, 11:17:30 AM12/20/14
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+1 Not too late here, message can still be adjusted. 

Johan Janssens

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Dec 20, 2014, 11:19:04 AM12/20/14
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+1 I'm most happy to put my hand up to run a 2.5 Security Team that deals with this.

Johan

Charlie Heath

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Dec 20, 2014, 1:58:29 PM12/20/14
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Johan, I'm available as a volunteer if there will be an official security support phase for V2.5 lasting at least one year. I have experience in software development, QA, project management, and five years work with Joomla. An old resume here: http://townwebsites.org/CharlesHeathResume.html .  

Charlie

brian teeman

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Dec 20, 2014, 2:00:40 PM12/20/14
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On Saturday, 20 December 2014 18:58:29 UTC, Charlie Heath wrote:
Johan, I'm available as a volunteer if there will be an official security support phase for V2.5 lasting at least one year. I have experience in software development, QA, project management, and five years work with Joomla. An old resume here: http://townwebsites.org/CharlesHeathResume.html .  

Charlie



Such a shame that people are happy to volunteer to support a dead turkey when they dont support a live one 

Bakual

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Dec 21, 2014, 4:48:21 AM12/21/14
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Just for the record. There will never be an official security support phase.
If someone wants to form a team to do support 2.5, fork, create your own repo and do what you need to do. But don't ask for official approval. That's not going to happen.
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