index.html

[Hannes Papenberg]

Hi folks,
I know we talked about this some time ago already, but I actually don't
know the result of that discussion: Why are we still keeping the
index.html files?

I just looked this up and while its only 40kb(*) in size, its almost
1300 extra files in our codebase which are essentially useless and could
be removed right now and replaced with one line in our .htaccess. It
would be a big advantage if we removed those for all the people that
unzip first and then upload to their servers...

Any insight?

Regards,
Hannes

(*) Considering how harddrives work, its actually a lot more. The files
are only about 40kb in size, but with one file per harddrive sector, its
more like 700kb that this occupies.

[Michael Babker]

I think if we get https://github.com/joomla/joomla-cms/pull/4171 merged in then we're in better shape to try it, but that's just one opinion.

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[Sergio Manzi]

What about when Joomla is run under IIS or nginx? Do they have something corresponding to "Options -Indexes "?

[sovainfo]

For IIS : Yes, see http://technet.microsoft.com/nl-nl/library/cc731109%28v=ws.10%29.aspx

[sovainfo]

For nginx : Yes, see http://techglimpse.com/enable-directory-listing-mode-nginx/

[Johan Janssens]

# Why did we do this before 

This measure stems from the time before PHP 4.2 when register globals was on by default.  Adding index.html files prevented direct access to a folder. The goal was to prevent listing the content of a folder to prevent someone from trying to easily find out what files the folder contains.

If you know the php files in a folder you can try to call/executem them which could lead to exposure of server paths or in worse case could lead to being able to execute code on the server, especially on servers that had register_globals enabled.

In essence this technique is more security by obscurity. If someone knew the direct URL of a PHP file he could still try to execute it.

# Why can be stop doing this

- Joomla's code base has been completely refactored since the Mambo days. Globals are not longer used, and the code (in most cases) follows a one class per file standard preventing any code from getting executed.

-  Register globals (http://php.net/manual/en/security.globals.php) is deprecated and removed in PHP 5.4 and Joomla request context can only be setup by going in through index.php

Taken both into account there is really no reason to keep adding index.html files to folders. I also do not think Joomla should prevent directly listings out of the box. This is really the responsibility of the hosting provider and or sysadmin.

Johan

[Chad Windnagle]

I PRed this a while ago https://github.com/joomla/joomla-cms/pull/3788

Regards,
Chad Windnagle

On Tue, Oct 7, 2014 at 11:11 AM, Chad Windnagle <ch...@cohesivewebsites.com> wrote:

I PRed this a while ago https://github.com/joomla/joomla-cms/pull/3788

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[Sergio Manzi]

@sovainfo: thanks for the research!

@Johan Janssen: nice historical an technical insight! As far as regards not turning on "Options -Indexes"  in .htaccess (or the like...), I substantially agree, but I think we can put it in as a commented-out "advice"

Partially related to this matter, isn't it the time we get rid of "Options +FollowSymLinks" from htaccess.txt or at least we change it to "Options +SymLinksIfOwnerMatch"?

smz

[Sergio Manzi]

Oh... and if we get rid of all the index.html files (and I agree), we should remember to coordinate with the JED: if I'm not mistaken they have a requirement for that...

[Chad Windnagle]

JED dropped the requirement for index.html a while back. 

http://community.joomla.org/blogs/leadership/1737-the-jed-indexhtml-requirement-dropped.html

Regards,
Chad Windnagle

[Sergio Manzi]

... and be sure that some otherwise empty directory (/cache, /tmp, etc..) is created.

[Sergio Manzi]

I was mistaken! :-)

[Johan Janssens]

@chad : Thanks! I forgot about that one. With JED having removed the requirement it doesn't make sense at all for Joomla core to continue doing this.  

@sergio : I would keep this focussed on the question to remove the index.html files. Making additional changes to htaccess are worthwhile to consider but not coupled to Hannes his question. 

So in short : The JED doesn't require index.html anymore. This makes it absolutely unnecessary to have them in the Joomla core. If you have them them you need to have them everywhere, if you don't have them everywhere, you don't need them anywhere. 

Simple, done, time to bring the broom out Hannes and do some cleanup! This can go in as patch for 3.4 for sure.

Johan

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[Chad Windnagle]

I can update my PR if you all want. Check what Michael wrote on it regarding the build script. That piece might be beyond my available time at the moment. 

Regards,
Chad Windnagle

[Sergio Manzi]

Agreed: I will make a separate PR for the SymLinks stuff.

It makes me feel happy when it is clean-up time: go for it, Hannes! :-)

... and don't forget about empty directories ...

[Johan Janssens]

@chad : Makes sense to update the PR. It's related to the topic here.

@all : Happy to see a short and productive discussion on the list. Lets have more of those! 

Johan

[Matt Thomas]

@all : Happy to see a short and productive discussion on the list. Lets have more of those!

+1,000,000!

Best,

Matt Thomas

203.632.9322
http://betweenbrain.com/

[Chad Windnagle]

PR is up to date

Regards,
Chad Windnagle

On Tue, Oct 7, 2014 at 12:08 PM, Johan Janssens <jjan...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Troy]

I'm sorry I can't agree with you at all. Joomla is designed for the
average website owner. I'm so sick of hearing "lets hack down joomla so
it only has xyz" making it better for devs and less friendly for
everyone else. If you wanna do that then hardcode HTML
Bear

[Johan Janssens]

Hi Bear, 

You are 100% correct that Joomla is build for small and mid size sites focussed on default LAMP stacks. I don't recall we ever said in this thread 'lets hack Joomla down so it only has xyz". If we did, or you read my reply like that my sincerest apologies.

For Joomla to strive and move forward us developers need to consider some of the 'best' practices we used for years and asked ourself if in light of recent technology advancement they are still necessary. The index.html files is one such old 'best' practice that is no longer needed.

I understand that those discussions might seem a bit odd, strange, geeky, ... and speckled with drama. They are however done with the best intentions in mind. Our mutual goal is to make Joomla better, leaner and meaner so you as a small site owner can keep enjoying it.

Sidenote, about the harcoded HTML, trust me, I do still enjoy writing some plain HTML from time to time. Just because not every project requires a CMS. 

Sincerely,

Johan Janssens, Joomla Co-Founder.

[brian teeman]

Hi Bear

What are you not agreeing to? Can you explain why?

Brian

[Troy]

My reply was ONLY in content to the statement about not needing to protect against directory listings.  I understand removing index.html :D

Bear

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[Brad Gies]

How about this as an option? Remove all the .html files except one, and then in the installer ask the user if they want .html files in all directories. The code is pretty simple, and it gives everyone what they want. A smaller installation .zip file, and the .html files in every directory if they want them.

Brad

[brian teeman]

Do you really think that the user who has such bad web hosting that they need the blank index.html files will understand the question?

[Johan Janssens]

Additionally, even if the user would understand the choice he is presented with. You are presented with following challenges :

1.  You would need to implement a mechanism to ensure all folders are writable. This isn't always possible through code, hence why Joomla has an overview of the folders that need to be writable for the installer in the administrator. 

If you want to do this in the installer. You would need to add the same overview to the installer, but then show all the folders that need to be writable. Once the operation has been completed you need to tell the person installing to make all the folders unwritable (besides the once that the extentension installer requires) again if Joomla cannot do it. 

2. The JED no longer requires extensions to include index.html files. If you automatically add index.html files for the core, you also need to go back to adding index.html files for extensions, when they are being installed. Otherwise you still allow directory listings of extensions.

As I said, this is really the responsibility of the hoster and server setup, not the application running on it. 

On Sat, Oct 11, 2014 at 9:42 AM, brian teeman <joom...@googlemail.com> wrote:

Do you really think that the user who has such bad web hosting that they need the blank index.html files will understand the question?

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[Beat]

agree.
+1 for removing all index.html's except in empty folders where a file is needed by git's design, so that we have the folder present in git repository (alternatively a dummy .gitignore file could be there, but removed at packaging Joomla).

Beat
http://www.joomlapolis.com/

[Johan Janssens]

Empty folders in Git are best solved using  either .gitignore or .gitkeep depending on developers preference. They 'could' be stripped out when the code is deployed or when a downloadable package is build. There is no harm in keeping them though.

[Chad Windnagle]

Hi Johan

Hannes and I have been discussing this on the PR. Currently we've opted to just pop in a few index.html for simplicities sake.

https://github.com/joomla/joomla-cms/pull/3788

Chad

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[Hannes Papenberg]

Wooohooo!!! Today we finally got rid of all the index.html files. :-)
\o/ That means for every new installation, about 1800 less files have to
be copied over. (The Konga-line for the party starts behind me. *music
on* *dancing commences*)

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[Vic Drover]

That's pretty awesome :)

Cheers,

Victor Drover
Founder and CEO, Anything Digital LLC (BBB Accredited)
Co-founder, Watchful.li & jInbound.com
262-309-4140
Facebook: AnythingDigital | watchfulli | JInbound
Twitter: @AnythingDig | @watchfulli | @JoomlaInbound

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[Johan Janssens]

Congrats Hannes! One little commit, ... one big step for Joomla.

[Hannes Papenberg]

Don't congratulate me. It was mainly the work of Elijah Madden and
Thomas and George who merged this. :-)

Am 10.12.2014 um 16:29 schrieb Johan Janssens:
> Congrats Hannes! One little commit, ... one big step for Joomla.
>
> On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 1:58 PM, Vic Drover
> <ad...@anything-digital.com <mailto:ad...@anything-digital.com>> wrote:
>
> That's pretty awesome :)
>
> Cheers,
>
> Victor Drover
> Founder and CEO, Anything Digital LLC

> <https://mail.google.com/> (BBB Accredited
> <http://www.bbb.org/milwaukee/business-reviews/computer-software-publishers-and-developers/anything-digital-llc-in-sussex-wi-1000009940/>)
> Co-founder, Watchful.li <https://watchful.li/> & jInbound.com
> <http://jinbound.com/>
> 262-309-4140
> Facebook: AnythingDigital
> <https://www.facebook.com/AnythingDigital> | watchfulli
> <https://www.facebook.com/watchfulli> | JInbound
> <https://www.facebook.com/JInbound>
> Twitter: @AnythingDig
> <https://twitter.com/AnythingDig> | @watchfulli
> <https://twitter.com/watchfulli> | @JoomlaInbound
> <https://twitter.com/joomlainbound>

>
>
> On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 6:04 AM, Hannes Papenberg
> <hack...@googlemail.com <mailto:hack...@googlemail.com>> wrote:
>
> Wooohooo!!! Today we finally got rid of all the index.html
> files. :-)
> \o/ That means for every new installation, about 1800 less
> files have to
> be copied over. (The Konga-line for the party starts behind
> me. *music
> on* *dancing commences*)
>

> Am 13.10.2014 <tel:13.10.2014> um 16:27 schrieb Chad Windnagle:
> > Hi Johan
> >
> > Hannes and I have been discussing this on the PR. Currently
> we've
> > opted to just pop in a few index.html for simplicities sake.
> >
> > https://github.com/joomla/joomla-cms/pull/3788
> >
> > Chad
> >
> > On Sun, Oct 12, 2014 at 7:44 PM, Johan Janssens
> <jjan...@gmail.com <mailto:jjan...@gmail.com>

> > <mailto:jjan...@gmail.com <mailto:jjan...@gmail.com>>>

> wrote:
> >
> > Empty folders in Git are best solved using either
> .gitignore or
> > .gitkeep depending on developers preference. They 'could' be
> > stripped out when the code is deployed or when a
> downloadable
> > package is build. There is no harm in keeping them though.
> >
> > On Sun, Oct 12, 2014 at 4:39 PM, Beat <bea...@gmail.com
> <mailto:bea...@gmail.com>

> > <mailto:bea...@gmail.com <mailto:bea...@gmail.com>>>

> <mailto:joom...@googlemail.com>> wrote:
> >
> > Do you really think that the user who has
> such bad web
> > hosting that they need the blank index.html
> files will
> > understand the question?
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[Sergio Manzi]

Congrats to everyone who was involved!

I think one slipped in: /administrator/components/index.html

[Johan Janssens]

Sorry Hannes! A big pat on the back or Elijah Madden, Thomas and George. 

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[Bakual]

And Chad who started the discussion :)

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[Bakual]

If there is still one, feel free to do a PR :)

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[brian teeman]

On Wednesday, 10 December 2014 21:23:44 UTC, Bakual wrote:

If there is still one, feel free to do a PR :)

I know we  need to keep the file in an empty directory such as /cache

But 

1. do we need to keep the file in a directory that has sub-directories but no files eg /administrator/components
2. We have quite a few directories that dont have any files AND cant have any user created files do we need to keep thosee directories eg administrator/components/com_media/models/forms/index.html

[Bakual]

1. No. That file can be deleted.
2. The whole folder can be deleted here. Makes no sense to have that one.

[brian teeman]

On Wednesday, 10 December 2014 21:58:16 UTC, Bakual wrote:

1. No. That file can be deleted.

Good I see someone has create a PR

 

2. The whole folder can be deleted here. Makes no sense to have that one.

Looks like there are three to remove

administrator/components/com_media/models/forms/index.html 

administrator/components/com_tags/helpers/html/index.html

administrator/components/com_tags/models/fields/index.html

[Sergio Manzi]

Thomas, Brian, I'm the one who did the PR for the "last" index.html.

I left the others because they were in empty directories, but if everybody agrees I can get rid of those too...

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[Ove Eriksson]

Great step!

1. Shouldn't the index.html files be removed from the manifest files? Not urgent since my tests didn't show any messages when uninstalling or discovering a plugin. With a created installation package it,as expected, did not install.

I made an example with content-contact PR 5392

https://github.com/joomla/joomla-cms/pull/5392

2. Are there some problems with empty folders in images? If not could the index.html creation be removed from the media manager. existing and hopefully coming versons.
I can create the PR for the current version if you don't see any problems. (remove two lines)

[Bakual]

Those directories should be fine to remove. They look like copy-pasted stuff which never had a function.

Am Donnerstag, 11. Dezember 2014 00:01:35 UTC+1 schrieb Sergio Manzi:

Thomas, Brian, I'm the one who did the PR for the "last" index.html.

I left the others because they were in empty directories, but if everybody agrees I can get rid of those too...

On 2014-12-10 23:16, brian teeman wrote:

On Wednesday, 10 December 2014 21:58:16 UTC, Bakual wrote:

1. No. That file can be deleted.

Good I see someone has create a PR

 

2. The whole folder can be deleted here. Makes no sense to have that one.

Looks like there are three to remove

administrator/components/com_media/models/forms/index.html 

administrator/components/com_tags/helpers/html/index.html

administrator/components/com_tags/models/fields/index.html

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[Bakual]

Had to put some back in the top level directories because we use them in our build script.

[Tobias Zulauf]

Hi folks,

we need to update our xml files too here are some PRs for that and i hope i don't miss some xml's

https://github.com/joomla/joomla-cms/pull/5402

https://github.com/joomla/joomla-cms/pull/5401

https://github.com/joomla/joomla-cms/pull/5400

https://github.com/joomla/joomla-cms/pull/5399

https://github.com/joomla/joomla-cms/pull/5398

https://github.com/joomla/joomla-cms/pull/5396

https://github.com/joomla/joomla-cms/pull/5394

https://github.com/joomla/joomla-cms/pull/5393

Also this is here can be in (build/indexmaker.php) :)

https://github.com/joomla/joomla-cms/pull/5383

Regards,

Tobias