Wasn't sure exactly where discussion on the individual issues should go so I stuck a comment in the website issue. If it was better to stick it on the mailing list or wiki then please let me know.
Cheers
Richard
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Depending on what the scope of the website is (e.g. is it just replacing what is in Drupal, or replacing Drupal + all of Confluence, or Drupal + some of Confluence) I think, if the goal is to lower the bar, things like the Arquillian example in my opinion wouldn't meet that goal and, in fact, possibly raise the bar.
As far as I can tell, and please tell me if I'm wrong, to do a change to a page you would need fork the Git repo, find the file that matches the content you are wanting to change, change the file, then create a PR for the change. If you wanted to actually make sure it looked like the correct sort of change you'd need to install Ruby and associated GEMs to be able to check your change? This would also imply that people would have to have a GitHub account presumably.
Right now in the Confluence style approach, you would just hit Edit, use the WYSIWYG editor to make the change, and then hit Save. Access is via a multi-purpose LDAP account.
To me the latter seems a lower bar than the former?
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On 02.10.2015, at 20:17, Kohsuke Kawaguchi <k...@kohsuke.org> wrote:
> My key take away is that we can drive participation more by encouraging people to sign up and create an account, which converts them from anonymous drive-by visitors into a "card carrying member of the Jenkins community", which makes a lot of sense.
It's definitely in interesting concept.
The major problem I see with this is the need for moderation when everyone is allowed to post everywhere. And that doesn't even consider the manual work needed to correlate the work of numerous individual contributors as mentioned at the bottom. This requires that the moderator tools are exceptionally strong to not take up a lot of time.
One other issue that concerns me is that the vision requires a lot of participation to take off. Maybe I'm too pessimistic here, but I see a similar situation like those small business web sites with a section called 'special offers' or 'news' that is never updated. It just looks sad if e.g. you can vote on things in a list, and nothing has been voted on. A site should grow towards the described level of participation rather than go from basically nothing to that level. What do others think?
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I think a major disconnect to me still looks like scope. In previous discussions it's been the Drupal side only but then in comments in this thread it starts crossing over to the Wiki side of things as well.
I don't know if it exists already but a guide to what content would be available to people and what "side of the fence" it would sit in would be useful.
Richard.
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I'd completely bin comments. I don't see why the site needs to host a blog - why can't it just be links to Jenkins articles elsewhere.
Bigger requirements just end up sucking you towards the cpu-suck, security-nightmare and 'who has review/approve and commit bits' CRM nightmares like Wordpress.On Thu, Oct 8, 2015 at 12:45 AM, Daniel Beck <m...@beckweb.net> wrote:So from aggregating existing comments it looks to me like the following seems to be at least a reasonable basis for further discussion:
* Use a static site generator with a Git repo on GitHub as the source for the site. Goal: Allow community to contribute content.
[Updated Confluence could also work, but would retain the problems of unreviewed content, comments, and non-plain text editing.]
* Have actual content, like good documentation, especially for getting started. This includes moving some of the wiki's content into the site.
* Feature the blog [and possibly the event calendar] more prominently.
* Do not have "comments everywhere", limit to specific sections like the blog.
* Make it easy to contribute, possibly through having an "Edit" ("Improve this page"?) link on every page, if possible.
Comments?
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Do we have any site statistics on the current site of what pages are most frequently viewed? That could feed into a perhaps better discussion on what type of information to focus on.
Yes in the theme of 2.0 it is important to focus on new visitors/users, but I would argue that it's equally important to cater to the users that are coming back to the site after the initial experience, and make them want to come back for more in depth knowledge.Something that today is very front and center on the home page. By clicking the link "Extend Jenkins" I can learn how to do that (we can perhaps argue about the quality of the docs behind that link) but the fact that it's front and center on the page is an important notion to me and a very important feature of Jenkins itself and possible the biggest reason for us having such a wonderful and vibrant dev community could be attributed to the fact that users can "upgrade" themselves with just a click on the home page instead of diving into the depths of the documentation pages. And I think that's nothing to be glanced over and just put into the "Documentation" category.One thing that makes me a bit uneasy in the discussion so far is the fact that both Daniel and Gus seems to glance over the "Documentation" part as just being a category and not that there are many important things behind that category.To me one of the "selling points" of choosing Jenkins way back in the day was the meaning behind "Highly Extensible". It doesn't only mean that there are 1095 different plugins I can install, but that there is a possibility that I can make Jenkins do whatever I want.
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Yeah, so if I am understanding you correctly, Robert, you are saying that you would like to be able to highlight some bits of content over others? I would think that would just be a matter of marking particular content pieces with a tag that pushes them to the top of the homepage. It also sounds like you are suggesting these so marked articles should have some marketing-ish goop associated with them.....Personally, I think the demonstration of Jenkins extensibility is more impressive than the saying of it. And, that demonstration is the plugins. Thus rather than an article that say 'hey look, we are extensible', I would think we would just want to go straight into showing off the plugins, just as http://getbootstrap.com/ goes straight into showing you Bootstrap or the Play store goes straight into showing you the Andoid apps or http://www.deviantart.com/ goes straight into showing you the art. To me, showing off the plugins screams extensibility and the content stays fresh by virtue of the fact that people are interacting with the plugins themselves.
Sure we need to be able to get to blogs and events and doc, but so do these sites, and they do. Compare that with http://arquillian.org/, which is a prefectly fine site, but page 1 packs no punch in part becuase it lacks a particular angle to the story it wants to tell. Yawn, yawn, they have a blog.... and events and stuff...What concerns me about the technology discussion, is that if you buy my pitch that the second most important thing Jenkins-ci.org does today (behind allowing the download of Jenkins) is hosting the plugins, there is a whole set of things we need to start doing in order to do that right. The essence of that effort will be blending metadata from the plugin author, community users, and a site curator and then serving that up to the user in a flexible fashion.
There are some real technical challenges there and if anything, it seems like moving to a more static site model is a move away from providing that value. Maybe not. I just am not seeing the glue that would hold the anonymous markdown files together. I am sure it can be done.
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Thanks for the explanation, and video! Do you have any old screenshots
of the Allaire stuff, out of curiosity?
That grid does seems nice, and yeah, we do know which plugins are newest
(I'm a fan of @jenkins_release) though I do prefer the version without
icons.. :)
Getting plugin developers to *name* their plugin in a reasonable (and
consistent) way is hard enough, never mind getting them to add a wiki
page, and then add a short but meaningful description there... so I'm
going to be pessimistic about icons, I'm afraid.
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What I see happening here is solutions being mixed up with problem statements
Anyways, if you're passionate about the subject, fleshing out ideas and
proposals in confluence is IMHO the best path forward.