Google's newest programming language: Dart

[Chris Koerner]

Presentation: 
"Opening Keynote: Dart, a new programming language for structured web programming"

Time: Monday 09:00 - 09:50 / Location: To be announced

Breaking news: Google to unveil World News at GOTO Aarhus. The whole world will be on alert when Google presents a new programming language "Dart" in the opening keynote speak on conference monday. Join us and GOTO Aarhus and get all the details.

http://gotocon.com/aarhus-2011/presentation/Opening%20Keynote:%20Dart,%20a%20new%20programming%20language%20for%20structured%20web%20programming

[Chris Koerner]

"Now, Google has already released one language in recent history — Go — so we can assume that Dart won’t be a C-like system-oriented language. With the “structured web programming” moniker, it’s also likely to be some kind of interpreted, in-the-browser language — so more like JavaScript or Python, and less like Java or other compiled languages. One of the biggest hints, though, is that both Bracha and Bak have worked extensively with Smalltalk in the past — and an interpreted Smalltalkesque language would fit right into the “structured web programming” mold, too.

"

http://www.extremetech.com/computing/95417-google-announces-dart-programming-language

[opinali]

That would make sense: a stack with Go in the low-level, and Dart in the high-level. Add this to runtime tech like [P]NaCl an OS'es like Android/ChromeOS, and Google is quickly shaping up its own full platform. Dart will certainly be a safe / managed / VM-based language, so I just wonder if Dart will be adequate as an alternative for Java for Android programming... if Google and Oracle don't reach a reasonable agreement over Java, Google obviously needs a plan to move away from Java. Dart is being announced as a "web language" but unless they hope to put that in the browser as an alternative to Javascript (and even Google could not pull this out (*)), it doesn't make much sense to have a language that is only useful to write web apps, so this can be just the initial application.

((*) Microsoft failed miserably to impose their VBScript at the climax of MSIE's dominance, so no chance really, even though I would love the idea as I loathe Javascript enough to yell "standards be damned, go Google!".  But I guess Dart can be a language that is carefully designed to allow easy and efficient cross-compilation into Javascript, i.e. the language for a next-gen GWT.)

[robogeek]

On Sep 8, 12:47 pm, Chris Koerner <chessm...@gmail.com> wrote:
> "Now, Google has already released one language in recent history — Go<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go_%28programming_language%29> —

> so we can assume that Dart won’t be a C-like system-oriented language. With
> the “structured web programming” moniker, it’s also likely to be some kind
> of interpreted, in-the-browser language — so more like JavaScript or Python,
> and less like Java or other compiled languages. One of the biggest hints,

> though, is that both Bracha and Bak have worked extensively with Smalltalk<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smalltalk> in

> the past — and an interpreted Smalltalkesque language would fit right into
> the “structured web programming” mold, too.

> "http://www.extremetech.com/computing/95417-google-announces-dart-prog...

Why would you think that JavaScript is still trapped in the browser?
One of the co-presenters is Lars, who worked on HotSpot and V8, and V8
is used outside the browser. The Node.js platform is built on top of
V8, and is a programming platform for running JavaScript in server-
side non-browser applications.

I'm wondering if they'll present this new language running on top of
V8 and whether V8 will develop an ability to run multiple languages?
Right now it's a shame that the Node.js platform can only be
programmed with JavaScript.

+ David Herron
http://davidherron.com/node.js

[Cédric Beust ♔]

On Fri, Sep 9, 2011 at 8:38 AM, opinali <opi...@gmail.com> wrote:

if Google and Oracle don't reach a reasonable agreement over Java, Google obviously needs a plan to move away from Java.

Come on, now, this makes no sense at all.

-- 

Cédric

[Russel Winder]

On Fri, 2011-09-09 at 08:38 -0700, opinali wrote:

[ . . . ]

> away from Java. Dart is being announced as a "web language" but
> unless they hope to put that in the browser as an alternative to
> Javascript (and even Google could not pull this out (*)), it doesn't
> make much sense to have a language that is only useful to write web
> apps, so this can be just the initial application.

Oak was an embedded systems programming language for white and brown
goods. Then it transmogrified to Java a language for programming
applets and enlivening the browser experience. Then it transmogrified
to Java the language for programming all your server systems.

Clearly Java is a programming language that doesn't know where it's
going and has no focused purpose. Can it have a future with such a
chequered past?

Or put another way, I never believe marketing hype.

And to bait people with "Lots of speculation about Dart; few facts. All
will be revealed at GOTO Aarhus." is clear evidence of marketing hype.

>
> ((*) Microsoft failed miserably to impose their VBScript at the climax
> of MSIE's dominance, so no chance really, even though I would love the

Let's hope the aftermath of the climax was not too messy :-)

--
Russel.
=============================================================================
Dr Russel Winder t: +44 20 7585 2200 voip: sip:russel...@ekiga.net
41 Buckmaster Road m: +44 7770 465 077 xmpp: rus...@russel.org.uk
London SW11 1EN, UK w: www.russel.org.uk skype: russel_winder

[Casper Bang]

Not too far fetched, Google's strategy seems to be to throw as much up against the wall and see what sticks. However, in this specific case I think we're more likely to see a language unifying client-server on the web (a la node.js for server and JavaScript for browser), given the background of Bracha and Bak.

[Cédric Beust ♔]

On Fri, Sep 9, 2011 at 12:35 PM, Casper Bang <caspe...@gmail.com> wrote:

Not too far fetched, Google's strategy seems to be to throw as much up against the wall and see what sticks. However, in this specific case I think we're more likely to see a language unifying client-server on the web (a la node.js for server and JavaScript for browser), given the background of Bracha and Bak.

Bak is certainly a VM expert but I'm a bit concerned by Gilad's infatuation with all things Smalltalk. I wonder if he'll have allowed some compromises in that area.

-- 

Cédric

[phil swenson]

what's wrong with smalltalk?

2011/9/9 Cédric Beust ♔ <ced...@beust.com>:

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[opinali]

Well, suppose just for the sake of argument that Oracle wins big time the patent suit and all Android devices have to pay a significant license fee to Oracle? I know that a new language alone is meaningless; if it still binds to the same APIs and VM, it wouldn't dodge any patents. But add a new, unified VM that can run both Java and the new language just as well and seamlessly (see Oracle's unified Java + Javascript VM research). Give to the new language bindings to all existing APIs to make adoption easy and gradual, but also build a next generation of frameworks that starts with the modern and unencumbered android.* packages - that's where you already find most of the value of Android already - but improves them with features from the new language and VM. Then you can build a relatively smooth migration path to a new SDK.

Now the irony is that Android has already made JavaME obsolete, and if Google is forced to go "Plan B" like above and succeeds, that would make the rest of Java obsolete in the mobile space. And I don't see this being any good for Oracle in the long term.

</wild-speculation> ;-)

[Cédric Beust ♔]

More information on Dash.  I'm not seeing Gilad credited at all in this message, though.

-- 

Cédric

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[Russel Winder]

On Fri, 2011-09-09 at 16:56 -0600, phil swenson wrote:
> what's wrong with smalltalk?

Nothing technically as a language other than it was image based, leading
to some interesting problems in large systems development.

It's problem was that it failed to continue to gain traction when Java
arrived and started to steam-roller it in commercial use. No-one chose
to take up the role of champion of Smalltalk against Java.

Unlike Lisp (which is unique and has a unique position in software), I
can't see Smalltalk making comeback after comeback.

[Fabrizio Giudici]

On 09/10/2011 07:11 AM, Cédric Beust ♔ wrote:
> More information on Dash
> <http://markmail.org/message/uro3jtoitlmq6x7t>. I'm not seeing Gilad

> credited at all in this message, though.
>

" Complex web apps ... are struggling against the platform and working
with a language that cannot be tooled and has inherent performance
problems. Even smaller-scale apps written by hobbyist developers have to
navigate a confusing labyrinth of frameworks and incompatible design
patterns. "
" Javascript as it exists today will likely not be a viable solution
long-term. Something must change."
" Javascript has historical baggage that cannot be solved without a
clean break. "

Wow. We don't know how this is genuine from Dash authors, but - to me,
little bastard - it's refreshing to see that *perhaps* there's at least
someone in Google who agrees that Javascript is a total mess. This is
also somewhat fun, because when Google introduced Chrome and its
optimized JS engine the message was different and totally enthusiastic
about JS. Just two different schools within Google or problems have
emerged since then? BTW, does the mess of JavaScript applies to the
server side as well (e.g. Node.js) according to this thinking in Google?

Of course I'm sceptical about the chances that a new language, that in
addition needs to be supported by browsers, is capable to overcome
Javascript. But I'd be glad if this happens (well, first I'd like to see
how Dash is). This would confirm an idea of mine, that while the 4/5
mainstream languages (and frameworks) keep on being mainstream, in the
crowd of wanna-be-mainstreams there's a continuous fight. As soon as a
candidate seems to emerge, a "better" one kills it. Needn't to say that
if the above sentences are true and JS can't be a viable solution in the
long-term, stuff such as jQuery (the latest silver bullet) aren't too (I
mean, they would need to be ported to Dash).

I've tried to re-google the sentences, but it seems that only that email
message is mentioning them. To avoid spreading possible FUD, I will
prevent myself from commenting elsewhere until someone finds a more
reliable quote (I mean, with an explicit attribution).

--
Fabrizio Giudici - Java Architect, Project Manager
Tidalwave s.a.s. - "We make Java work. Everywhere."
java.net/blog/fabriziogiudici - www.tidalwave.it/people
Fabrizio...@tidalwave.it

[opinali]

On Saturday, September 10, 2011 2:38:18 AM UTC-4, Russel wrote:

On Fri, 2011-09-09 at 16:56 -0600, phil swenson wrote:
> what's wrong with smalltalk?

Nothing technically as a language other than it was image based, leading
to some interesting problems in large systems development.

I don't think that was the only problem; and it was not an insurmountable problem (e.g. Parcels). Smalltalk was a bit outdated in the OOPL paradigm; for one thing, no visibility rules, so large applications always end up depending on tons of internal methods, always breaking in a new release of the Smalltalk system. (Naming conventions and documentation never worked as a mechanism to prevent abuse from private methods). More: insufficient standardization of core APIs so bad compatibility across vendors; to much reliance on inheritance; no concrete way to express protocols (there was a late proposal to do that - sort of Java interfaces - but it was too late); outdated framework design (start counting the methods in Object, etc.); no mechanisms for large-scale modularization (namespaces were added once again too late... and not sufficient); no support for modern trends like functional programming. Smalltalk could make a comeback but only with very serious fixing to become what is now considered a modern OOPL; by the way, one attempt to do that is Bracha's NewSpeak. So this gives an easy clue about Dart - I don't mean that Dart should be directly derived from NewSpeak, I mean that whatever language Dart is, it should focus on solving problems that we know that its authors consider to be very fundamental.

[and yeah, dynamic typing was also part of Smalltalk's problems ;-) Self and StrongTalk were not enough to fix that.]

A+

Osvaldo

 

It's problem was that it failed to continue to gain traction when Java
arrived and started to steam-roller it in commercial use.  No-one chose
to take up the role of champion of Smalltalk against Java.

Unlike Lisp (which is unique and has a unique position in software), I
can't see Smalltalk making comeback after comeback.

--
Russel.
=============================================================================
Dr Russel Winder      t: +44 20 7585 2200   voip: sip:russ...@ekiga.net

[kebernet]

So, I am just not sure this is that big of a deal. Not for a long time. I think it is good Google is kicking this off. I also think it is GREAT news that they have a less ad-hoc strategy to unify their toolchains (Closure/GWT/etc). As far as the Dart/Dash/Doh! runtime, it might be interesting later, but for the forseeable future, I would rather bet on SPDY and WebM as "big ideas." 

If they can make a good run at it, and pull in the GWT linker framework, I can see this making a run at CoffeeScript/ObjectiveJ/etc. But those aren't big targets.

[Xeno]

REEEEEAAALLLY?

Ever heard of Scala? Groovy/Grails? Better yet... ever USED them? Only some of the fastest growing and fastest adopted java languages out there right now. No direction huh? I want some of those tea leaves you've been smoking, Jeeves. Cheerio pip pip.