London, possibly city living in general.

[Carl Jokl]

The job hunting continues though I now have 2 offers on the table.

The second interview and role are a company based in London. This is a
Java based role. I am really torn right now because probably the
biggest fear relates to the same thing: London. There is a big pull
about being right in the middle of it all. So many conferences happen
there and I would probably actually get to participate in a JUG for
the first time in my life. The problem is that it is a pretty big
unknown. I seem to see a recurring theme from people who I know who
have lived in London. London is fun and exiting at first but
eventually they get fed up with it, particularly the expense / having
to live in very modest accommodation to live there. There could be
advantages but realistically life is not going to be all conferences
and high five-ing Peter Pilgrim every morning. As much as the people I
spoke to ultimately got fed up and moved out of London they also had
the London experience for a length of time, which I have never had.

The last role for which I have an interview is in Leeds. I would not
need to relocate. With West Yorkshire it is the devil I know. I know
that I don't really like the area. High crime and often low average
levels of education as well as earnings. If it were not for having
most of my family and many friends here then leaving would probably be
a no brainer but it could also be a case of thinking the grass is
greener elsewhere.

I believe there are some in the group that live in or around London
and might be able to give some perspective. This might extend to city
living in general and other large and expensive cities in the world.

[Shaine Ismail]

I lived in London for about 5 year ( and now commute down to London for work most days).

I like the work and enjoy the life but eventually for family reasons i moved back up to the midlands.

I would take the job in London and see how it goes, if you don't enjoy it move back, if you are good and flexible there is always work out there.

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[Moandji Ezana]

I very recently sort of did the opposite: I moved from Brussels to rural South Africa. A big move, but a) that's how I grew up and b) why not? What is there to lose, really? 

I've never lived in London, but a number of friends have. Everyone seems to get fed up with it at some point, and leaves. I agree with Shaine: when you're tired of it, leave. And not necessarily to go back to Yorkshire, either. :)

Also, you'd probably be working with more talented colleagues, which is a huge plus.

Moandji

[Fabrizio Giudici]

On Fri, 07 Oct 2011 13:52:43 +0200, Moandji Ezana <mwa...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I very recently sort of did the opposite: I moved from Brussels to rural
> South Africa. A big move, but a) that's how I grew up and b) why not?
> What
> is there to lose, really?

Clearly it's hard to find a common strategy for all of us, but I'm pretty
much with Moandji. Note that Milan is much smaller than London and
recently I'm working mostly in my home town, Genoa, which is even smaller.
But it's too large for me anyway. If I could, I'd happily move to the
countryside. I appreciate that big towns offer contacts, professional
relationships and well paid jobs, but frankly all the rest of things that
I define under the "life" word happen elsewhere.

--
Fabrizio Giudici - Java Architect, Project Manager
Tidalwave s.a.s. - "We make Java work. Everywhere."
fabrizio...@tidalwave.it
http://tidalwave.it - http://fabriziogiudici.it

[Robert Casto]

It's really going to depend on whether you like the city life or not. I lived in the burbs of Seattle and while it was nice there, it was way too far from work. 2 hour commute one way is not good for family life. I should have lived much closer in but the cost was the big hangup. If you can afford to be in the city, give up a car and other expenses, then it balances out. But in the end it depends on what is really important to you. Working with great people in a fast paced environment, or a more leisurely pace with others who are less concerned with their jobs/careers and more interested in sports, family, or other activities.

I believe people should live in many places and try different things out. That way you get to learn different cultures, styles, etc. And you get to see whether you like the climate and what you will want for retirement if any of us can get there.

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[Martijn Verburg]

Hey Carl,

If you have any questions about the London JUG - then drop me a line!
We're very active, so you'll gain an instant circle of colleagues -
also feel free to drop me any Q's about London - apologies for not
responding in full now, I gotta catch a flight now, so typing time is
limited :-)

Martijn
(LJC JUG co-leader)

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[dha...@fortybeans.com]

You don't have to live in London to work in London. I have been in the London area for 25 years now, ever since I left home in East Yorkshire. I spent a few years living right in the centre which was great fun, no regrets, but cramped and expensive. The last 10 years or so I've been living either in the suburbs just inside the M25 or the greenbelt semi-countryside just outside the M25. The former is about 45 minutes commute if you live near a tube stattion, the latter about 1-1.5 hours commute by train.

A great advantage of living where I do now (just outside the M25 near to Heathrow) is that it's commutable into London, easy access to the airport and 1-2 hours driving to the Thames Valley & Midlands, nicely covering about 90% of the tech jobs landscape in the UK. Although I am a Yorkshireman at heart (cue Monty Python sketch) I have never once regretted leaving Yorkshire to work down South, and it's only 3-4 hours drive to visit Yorkshire. Go for it.

All the best,
Darren

[vjosullivan]

It's a no brainer.

Leeds is further north than Edmonton, Canada (though not as far north
as Scotland). Have you been to Edmonton? It's living on the edge.
On a clear day you can see the north pole.

London, on the other hand, is much warmer. It's on a level with
Calgary in tropical south Canada. Did you know there's no word in
Canada for south? How weird is that?

[Carl Jokl]

I thought Canadians spoke English and/or French therefore you would
have "South" or "Sud".

It is all about the gulf stream. If it were not for that England might
have ice on its South coast.

[Ricky Clarkson]

Also, having been to Leeds and now living in the third world, the third world is better.  Or at least more optimistic, and of course warmer.

If I still lived in the UK I'd have been aiming for London, as there's something I like about not having to drive everywhere and the culture it forms, plus the proximity to some of the programmers I'd most like to learn from.

[Carl Jokl]

That should be on a signs as you go into Leeds.

"Welcome to Leeds, considered worse than the 3rd World".

[Russel Winder]

On Sat, 2011-10-08 at 18:33 -0300, Ricky Clarkson wrote:
[ . . . ]

> If I still lived in the UK I'd have been aiming for London, as there's
> something I like about not having to drive everywhere and the culture
> it forms, plus the proximity to some of the programmers I'd most like
> to learn from.

Having lived and worked in London for 28 years, 23 of them in our
current 1 bed flat in Clapham Junction, I am biased:

Commuting in the standard commuting hours, really, really, really sucks.
So don't do it. Ensure you get some form of flexitime so you can
arrange travel to be comfortable.

Cars are only for use when you travel from London to somewhere else
outside London, and it always takes 30mins to get out.

We could sell our 1-bed flat and buy a street of houses in Leeds.

Getting good Internet in the leafy countryside generally requires
spending a lot of money to get a fibre line put in. Being in the city
there are lots of high speed systems. But this only really matters for
folk like me who work from home. Unless you want to join the "get all
entertainment by streaming" community.

The flexibility of living in the city beats the joy of living in
woodland.

We live next to a cemetery, so we have trees, robins, blue tits, great
tits, foxes, woodpigeons, magpies, jays. Almost like being in real
woodland.

London has the majority of technical activity, user groups, meetings,
etc. LJC is an EC member -- represented by Ben and Martijn mostly, but
its a serious lively and growing bunch of folk.

--
Russel.
=============================================================================
Dr Russel Winder t: +44 20 7585 2200 voip: sip:russel...@ekiga.net
41 Buckmaster Road m: +44 7770 465 077 xmpp: rus...@russel.org.uk
London SW11 1EN, UK w: www.russel.org.uk skype: russel_winder

[vjosullivan]

I think it does say that on a subtitle to the opening scene of one of
the Monty Python films.

[Martijn Verburg]

I'll echo Russel's statements on the commute - if it's over 45 minutes each way you're going to get a little stressed, if it's over an hour each way then your life quickly becomes miserable.  Outside of that London is a pretty amazing city to live in, what ever hobbies, interests etc you might have - it's here.  The parks etc actually provide a large amount of green space, it's not just a concrete jungle.

As Russel stated, the LJC is really active and also has strong ties with Scala, Groovy, Clojure, Software Craftsmanship, CTOs and several other tech communities - you can literally go to an event every night here if you so wish :-).

Cheers,
Martijn

[Peter Pilgrim]

Hi

I am just catching up w/ JavaPosse thread. Sorry I have been on a California tour of JavaOne, Silicon Valley Code Camp and Silicon Valley JavaFX User Group talks and then seriously myself looking at business opportunities.
Hi-fiving me is not the plans at the mo ... I live in the suburbs. I have some private thoughts about living in the city centre or any city centre in any megacity on the planet. It is expensive and there will be, unless you are royalty, The Queen, not going to be green spaces. Although London has a great number of parks, those properties that surround them, are sought after.  I used to commute into the City of London, probably will do again. It's really funning I just read an Evening Standard article a week ago, about a couple who spend £20000 doing this four days a week from the East Midland lines across 6 counties. It is madness, and we are, most of us, IT developers, designers and architect with great access and know-how about telecommunication technologies. Why we need to commute into an office 5 days a week is stupid in the 21st century? Ok I accept we need to do daily sit-downs (Sorry Barry H etc it is the way Agile is currently done in London / Financial banking most of time) with the team.
I digress let me answer your question, try to decide North, East, South, or West in London where you want to have mid-term flat). What do you like to do in the evening? Pub, Football, Rugby, TV, extrovert and introvert whatever. Decide on price? Go for that? Can you commute easily from there to the office? What is your commute time tolerance? What do you like do? Bike or Moped or Walk -Bus-Train-Bus-Wak? Decide on the people? Hooray Henries or working class or chav class and look at the prices and the shops people can afford? Best advice visit the area first for flat, get a feel of shops, people, pubs whatever, it cost you nothing but 5 / 6 day travelcard and an early Saturday morning start and a walkabout prospective areas. etc Final advice lodge with a mate, or colleague for a couple of months, and word of mouth helps.

[Peter Pilgrim]

Should've been London one-day Travelcard of 5 or 6 zones that will work across Buses, Tube (the underground) and Overground trains.

[Carl Jokl]

Thank you for your advice.

I had accepted the Job in London starting on the 1st of November.

As the job is in Kentish Town I opted to live somewhere on the
Northern Line outward from Kentish Town. On Tuesday I put down a
deposit for a flat in Finchley. I had spent a couple of days in London
looking at potential places to stay. I didn't have the option of
staying with anyone while I looked so I have gone straight into
renting somewhere. I also didn't have the opportunity of doing a house-
share with anyone I know but that might be possible in the future. I
expect to get a monthly travel pass and have actually had an Oyster
card for some time but have just fully registered it to allow me to
purchase monthly or greater season tickets. The cost of the monthly
season ticket will be less than I currently spend on travel in West
Yorkshire.

Carl