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Colin Purrington
Mar 21, 2018, 7:31:32 AM3/21/18
to iNaturalist
When viewing observations that need IDing, I've found myself wishing I could only view images that were submitted by users who are willing participants in the community. E.g., I'd love to exclude observations from school kids who are submitting pics from their textbooks. So I was wondering whether there is a way to filter away all observations that lack text in the Description field. Or that lack tags entirely. But the only way I've found is to include a specific search word (e.g., "think") that shows user has at least struggled with ID before uploading. What I'd *love* is a way to see observations from only those users who've ID'd at least 1 observation themselves. Or perhaps only those users who have modified their profile away from default. Both of these filters would just set up a low bar for being a member of a community rather than just a parasite (or parasite app). Anyone have any tricks?
Charlie Hohn
Mar 21, 2018, 8:56:07 AM3/21/18
to iNaturalist
Hmm. I like this in concept. But i often post things without description so you'd miss out on my observations if you did that. Which depending on your point of view could be a bug or a feature :) I really wish there were a way to filter for or against student accounts too, but until/unless student accounts are separated that is going to be hard. I think a filter for people who haven't visited the site in 6 months would be a start for old ones at least. Though there are also some users who added really good stuff and then left (or died in some cases, which is too bad, but happens to everyone)
Colin Purrington
Mar 21, 2018, 9:08:16 AM3/21/18
to iNaturalist
I wouldn't want to miss out on your observations, Charlie. I know I've submitted empty descriptions, too. That's why I'd prefer a filter that somehow captured a person's demonstrated willingness to be a contributing member of the community. E.g., having ID'd a certain number of observations already, or fussed with profile. I get the sense that 99% of the IDing effort is aimed at brand new observations ... and that is not going to be good long-term given the number of new users each day. There needs to be some way to send more eyeballs to older observations from members who actually contribute. I think. We want those community-minded folks to stay, not leave.
Charlie Hohn
Mar 21, 2018, 9:18:08 AM3/21/18
to iNaturalist
I agree. maybe we should make the ID search default to 'random'. I pretty much always use that instead of most recent.
Charlie Hohn
Mar 21, 2018, 9:24:58 AM3/21/18
to iNaturalist
I think the bigger and broader question here is, how do we continue expand and grow community? We have a wonderful core but we also have these users who aren't part of the community. personally i think the answer is stopping all 'duress' use of the site either via the student accounts thing or else via just outright banning using iNat as an assignment. Somehow I doubt we will get there though. I am not sure how to elevate the importance of this issue other than posting here though, and it already comes up several times a week and is getting worse. I am hoping some sort of more formal (though not necessarily more restrictive) Google Group procedure comes out of the recent retreat and discussion, such that we can get more guidance from admin about these particular issues that come up multiple times from multiple users again and again, so we know what our options are. This isn't, to be clear, griping about the iNat admins who do an amazing job. But I think one important way to build community is to get clarity on these ongoing issues, both on Google Groups and on the site itself. It is becoming clear that the profusion of assigned student accounts is creating a negative experience for other users, for people who want to use the data, and for the students themselves. What do we do about it? Filtering them out is only a short term solution, I think. If the biggest goal of iNat is to connect people with nature... well, 'duress accounts' aren't a good way to do that. At all. And that speaks a lot to the education system in many parts of the world in general (though this issue seems centered on the US?) but I do think there are things we can do as well.
Why are students not excited about being on iNat? What could make their experience better so they WANT to be here? Should we have a totally different app? Something half way between iNat and Seek with better tracking for what students find and 'grading' IDs and less (no?) reliance on the algorithm? Something that doesn't directly dump observations on the main iNat site, but maybe saves them somewhere so any interested students can add them to iNat later? That is another potential solution...
Why are students not excited about being on iNat? What could make their experience better so they WANT to be here? Should we have a totally different app? Something half way between iNat and Seek with better tracking for what students find and 'grading' IDs and less (no?) reliance on the algorithm? Something that doesn't directly dump observations on the main iNat site, but maybe saves them somewhere so any interested students can add them to iNat later? That is another potential solution...
Charlie Hohn
Mar 21, 2018, 9:27:22 AM3/21/18
to iNaturalist
There is also this, where we aren't supposed to post feature requests, but could still be relevant in case you haven't seen it:
Tony Iwane
Mar 21, 2018, 5:13:25 PM3/21/18
to iNaturalist
One solution for Identify that we discussed is the ability to filter out observations made by people who recently joined or have less than x number of observations, which would weed out many student ones.
Or, conversely, one could choose to show only observations made by new users, to help get them going and get those first IDs on iNat. I think that for a new user, getting an ID and and encouraging comment quickly is a huge part of getting them to stick around.
Thoughts?
Tony Iwane
Charlie Hohn
Mar 21, 2018, 5:16:55 PM3/21/18
to iNaturalist
while i don't think it would do much to solve the student issues, i do think that being able to filter for new users would be valuable for both reasons you mention!
If you can filter for duress users somehow, that would be even better... but i can't imagine how that would work. It seems a waste of time to help with IDs on those.
Tony Iwane
Mar 21, 2018, 7:05:12 PM3/21/18
to iNaturalist
The hope is that such a filter will not turn up as many students (who will presumably have new accounts and/or not many observations) for those who don't want to see these observation in Identify.
Tony Iwane
Colin Meurk
Mar 22, 2018, 4:43:20 PM3/22/18
to iNaturalist
wont this be a turn-off for new experts that might have even been invited/enticed to join the community because of their expertise!
Tony Iwane
Mar 22, 2018, 6:32:14 PM3/22/18
to iNaturalist
Colin, how so?
Tony Iwane
bouteloua
Mar 23, 2018, 9:38:13 AM3/23/18
to iNaturalist
This would be a nice option to improve my Identify experience.
I also never thought to filter by keywords like "think." Great idea.
Many experts don't want their observations identified by other people anyways, so I'm not sure how it would be a detriment to them. For them to have the ability to filter out new users when *making* identifications would be helpful.
Determining the cut-off would be interesting, e.g.
Days since joining? active days? number of observations? number of identifications?
What is the average number of days until a new user has reached 50 observations?
Or the avg number of days until 25 research-grade observations?
Or the avg number of days, or observations someone has made, before they make an Improving identification on someone else's observation?
cassi
I also never thought to filter by keywords like "think." Great idea.
Many experts don't want their observations identified by other people anyways, so I'm not sure how it would be a detriment to them. For them to have the ability to filter out new users when *making* identifications would be helpful.
Determining the cut-off would be interesting, e.g.
Days since joining? active days? number of observations? number of identifications?
What is the average number of days until a new user has reached 50 observations?
Or the avg number of days until 25 research-grade observations?
Or the avg number of days, or observations someone has made, before they make an Improving identification on someone else's observation?
cassi
Colin Purrington
Mar 23, 2018, 10:25:26 AM3/23/18
to iNaturalist
Another fun filter might be "just users who have gone maverick on >1 ID and had that ID accepted". Those users are likely to be engaged *and* open to dialogue about IDs.
mkken...@gmail.com
Mar 23, 2018, 10:34:12 AM3/23/18
to iNaturalist
I am a bit confused as to the real issue related to student postings - is it 'simply' to exclude text book photos?
are student postings associated with a class project ok if they actually went outdoors and took a picture?
If there is a real issue with poor/inappropriate content being added associated with classroom projects is there a way to create a new Classroom/Training app where observations are not immediately added to the iNaturalist database. Individual classroom projects would be under 'embargo' until content reviewed by the teacher or project lead.
In my opinion it is very important to engage youth and to foster interest in the flora and fauna around them.
I would love to see school age kids from our coastal communities out wandering our beaches and posting pictures. It is unlikely that they will know the names of many of the taxa that they photograph and this is a great tool for them to use to learn what exists in their area.
are student postings associated with a class project ok if they actually went outdoors and took a picture?
If there is a real issue with poor/inappropriate content being added associated with classroom projects is there a way to create a new Classroom/Training app where observations are not immediately added to the iNaturalist database. Individual classroom projects would be under 'embargo' until content reviewed by the teacher or project lead.
In my opinion it is very important to engage youth and to foster interest in the flora and fauna around them.
I would love to see school age kids from our coastal communities out wandering our beaches and posting pictures. It is unlikely that they will know the names of many of the taxa that they photograph and this is a great tool for them to use to learn what exists in their area.
Charlie Hohn
Mar 23, 2018, 12:17:07 PM3/23/18
to iNaturalist
the issue with students is simply that when assigned to use iNat rather than doing so by choice, they tend to submit low quality observations, fail to remain on the site to manage their observations, and some of the more unscrupulous ones cheat. It isn't a matter of not wanting young or nearly learning people on the site, both are great users when they are engaged and want to be here. The issue is when people are coerced into posting here but don't really want to. There's lots of other documentation of this issue, see https://docs.google.com/document/d/1nxdB_WPrBHHPjLwN1-9ZbRzeZkE6vsO22FDrFpfFa0w/edit .
Colin Meurk
Mar 23, 2018, 4:16:13 PM3/23/18
to iNaturalist
hi tony = maybe i misunderstood but thought one option/implication being discussed was to downgrade identifications by new users (targetted at students and other less engaged or novice users). i was commenting
such a blanket rule would potentially inadvertently deter legit and new expert users.
From: inatu...@googlegroups.com <inatu...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Tony Iwane <tiw...@gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, 23 March 2018 11:32:14 a.m.
To: iNaturalist
Subject: [inaturalist] Re: Filtering out low-quality observations during identification
Sent: Friday, 23 March 2018 11:32:14 a.m.
To: iNaturalist
Subject: [inaturalist] Re: Filtering out low-quality observations during identification
Colin, how so?
Tony Iwane
On Thursday, March 22, 2018 at 1:43:20 PM UTC-7, Colin Meurk wrote:
On Thursday, March 22, 2018 at 1:43:20 PM UTC-7, Colin Meurk wrote:
wont this be a turn-off for new experts that might have even been invited/enticed to join the community because of their expertise!
On Thursday, March 22, 2018 at 10:13:25 AM UTC+13, Tony Iwane wrote:
One solution for Identify that we discussed is the ability to filter out observations made by people who recently joined or have less than x number of observations, which would weed out many student ones.
Or, conversely, one could choose to show only observations made by new users, to help get them going and get those first IDs on iNat. I think that for a new user, getting an ID and and encouraging comment quickly is a huge part of getting them to stick around.
Thoughts?
Tony Iwane
On Wednesday, March 21, 2018 at 6:27:22 AM UTC-7, Charlie Hohn wrote:
There is also this, where we aren't supposed to post feature requests, but could still be relevant in case you haven't seen it:
On Wednesday, March 21, 2018 at 9:24:58 AM UTC-4, Charlie Hohn wrote:I think the bigger and broader question here is, how do we continue expand and grow community? We have a wonderful core but we also have these users who aren't part of the community. personally i think the answer is stopping all 'duress' use of the site either via the student accounts thing or else via just outright banning using iNat as an assignment. Somehow I doubt we will get there though. I am not sure how to elevate the importance of this issue other than posting here though, and it already comes up several times a week and is getting worse. I am hoping some sort of more formal (though not necessarily more restrictive) Google Group procedure comes out of the recent retreat and discussion, such that we can get more guidance from admin about these particular issues that come up multiple times from multiple users again and again, so we know what our options are. This isn't, to be clear, griping about the iNat admins who do an amazing job. But I think one important way to build community is to get clarity on these ongoing issues, both on Google Groups and on the site itself. It is becoming clear that the profusion of assigned student accounts is creating a negative experience for other users, for people who want to use the data, and for the students themselves. What do we do about it? Filtering them out is only a short term solution, I think. If the biggest goal of iNat is to connect people with nature... well, 'duress accounts' aren't a good way to do that. At all. And that speaks a lot to the education system in many parts of the world in general (though this issue seems centered on the US?) but I do think there are things we can do as well.
Why are students not excited about being on iNat? What could make their experience better so they WANT to be here? Should we have a totally different app? Something half way between iNat and Seek with better tracking for what students find and 'grading' IDs and less (no?) reliance on the algorithm? Something that doesn't directly dump observations on the main iNat site, but maybe saves them somewhere so any interested students can add them to iNat later? That is another potential solution...
On Wednesday, March 21, 2018 at 9:18:08 AM UTC-4, Charlie Hohn wrote:I agree. maybe we should make the ID search default to 'random'. I pretty much always use that instead of most recent.
On Wednesday, March 21, 2018 at 9:08:16 AM UTC-4, Colin Purrington wrote:I wouldn't want to miss out on your observations, Charlie. I know I've submitted empty descriptions, too. That's why I'd prefer a filter that somehow captured a person's demonstrated willingness to be a contributing member of the community. E.g., having ID'd a certain number of observations already, or fussed with profile. I get the sense that 99% of the IDing effort is aimed at brand new observations ... and that is not going to be good long-term given the number of new users each day. There needs to be some way to send more eyeballs to older observations from members who actually contribute. I think. We want those community-minded folks to stay, not leave.
On Wednesday, March 21, 2018 at 8:56:07 AM UTC-4, Charlie Hohn wrote:Hmm. I like this in concept. But i often post things without description so you'd miss out on my observations if you did that. Which depending on your point of view could be a bug or a feature :) I really wish there were a way to filter for or against student accounts too, but until/unless student accounts are separated that is going to be hard. I think a filter for people who haven't visited the site in 6 months would be a start for old ones at least. Though there are also some users who added really good stuff and then left (or died in some cases, which is too bad, but happens to everyone)
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Tony Iwane
Mar 23, 2018, 5:04:21 PM3/23/18
to inatu...@googlegroups.com
Colin M - It's likely I didn't explain the idea very well, sorry about that. The proposal would be to add a filter to Identify that would allow one "filter out" observations that were likely made by new users, which presumably most students would fall under. This would be an easy way for those who don't want to see the lower-grade observations often made by students who are "coerced" into using the app, as Charlie (and I) would describe it. What metric should be used to determine what a "new user" is would have to be determined, and it looks like cassi threw out some suggestions.
Conversely, one could use this filter to only see observations by new users and focus on helping them out, if one wants to. I think quick comments and IDs really help retain new users - no one wants to sign up, make some observations, and never get any feedback about them. Personally I'd like to use a filter like that, and I'm sure there are others who would as well.
This would not solve all the issues of bad data, or students incorrectly agreeing to their friends' observations, etc., but would address these observations popping up in the feeds of identifiers who don't want to see them. One downside would be that it would filter out new non-student users as well, of course, as you point out.
Colin P - that's a cool idea!
-----
Creating a student type account would take quite a bit of development and design work, so the other thing I'd like to do before considering something like that would be to make better documentation for educators and have it be less hidden than it is now - currently it's pretty buried. My guess is that many educators hear about iNat and think it's a cool idea to engage their students, but aren't familiar with the platform itself, or what the best practices for iNat are. If we catch them before they make plans to use iNat and provide them with better information, I think that will do a lot to bring down the numbers of poor observations. Or maybe I'm just really optimistic? Anyway, that's why I made that Google doc that Charlie linked to, to try and get ideas about best practices for educators. Please add to it if you can.
I'm also hoping that the Seek app will be a better alternative for younger kids. I did a family workshop this past weekend and a lot of the kids were really into it.
Tony
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Charlie Hohn
Mar 23, 2018, 5:17:02 PM3/23/18
to iNaturalist
Thanks Tony! I may have stolen the 'coerced' language from Ken-ichi.
it's really hard to say the extent to which better documentation would help with the student issue, but considering that the other option takes up a lot of dev time, it seems worth trying in any event. I also agree with you that for the younger students, the Seek app might offer an enjoyable alternative, and maybe even the dev of the seek app could involve teachers giving 'missions' and being able to see a report on what students find, or something (i have no idea if that is where you all are going with it or not). Those who get really into Seek and want more could easily make the transition to iNat, and since the photos with location data are saved on their phone they could even start by importing Seek photos!
I still like the student account (and/or student app) idea but this is a huge website with just a few devoted admins, so of course time is a big consideration. It is with all conservation related stuff... time and resources.
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