Affordable Hurdy Gurdy Construction

[maesoph]

Dear All:

Per your advice, I have contacted Hurdy Gurdy Crafters and am quite
pleased with the responses from Mel and Ann there. However, I don't
think I can tackle a Hurdy Gurdy from scratch and can't really afford
the kit. Is there any middle ground out there somewhere? I need to
make an HG that ultimately can be sold, so quality has to be there,
but I can't shell out $900 for a complete kit and only sell the HG for
$1200 or so (just guessing, but it's unlikely I would get more unless
I was a Pro at this). Any chance of getting material cost down to
$500 or less?????? Any ideas would be appreciated - maybe I should
take this straight to Mel and Ann though???

Mike

[Augusto de Ornellas Abreu]

You should take this to them, but be realist. I'd say it can't be done. The gurdy is a complex instrument, demanding hundreds of hours of work and hundreds of separate little CUSTOM-MADE pieces.

Do try to save more money and/or reexamine your priorities. You will find a way.

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[Wolodymyr Smishkewych]

I agree with Augusto--and especially since Mel and Anne are now making a very good and very affordable entry model (around $1000 USD, I think), the question I ask is: what is the purpose of  making the kit and then to resell it? Is it to get the experience of building one? I'm not sure the idea of building a HG from a kit in order to resell it and make money is very realistic, Mike--I wish I could say the opposite! It may well end up becoming a labor of love, and for that, you may as well love a good-sounding and reliably-working instrument...Jus' sayin'. :^)

All the best of luck to you, though!

Vlad

[Kazimierz Verkmastare]

This is a bit long, so pass it over if you want, but I hope it helps some of the folks understand a bit more of the economics of the instruments - we get a lot of questions about how to do it 'on the cheap' here but not a lot of indepth explanation of why that is not usually a feasible idea.  Maybe this will clear the air a bit.  At least maybe it will help folks understand what Mel and Alden and others have to go through to help us all make music and even learn some.

 

First, even with no experience, you can take your time, learn as you go, and build a working instrument from any level of raw materials down to harvested from trees in your area.  The skills of building from scratch are not that much different from building from a kit,  there are just more applications of different techniques.  While the skillset is bigger, it is not beyond the ability of a person who can build from a kit to learn to build from scratch.  And I personally suggest it, but not in the budget circumstances you are describing or with the final expectation you have.  I have seen a few gurdies that were the equivalent of a cheap Chinese violin, and none of them sounded good enough for me to part with money for (even my first gurdy, which after several major rebuilds and a bunch of money finally sounds good enough, but now looks unfortunately like a Frankenstein creation that I couldn't sell to a blind man for a dollar).  This is an instrument that you have to keep within rather high tolerances in materials and design, you can't cut corners.  And there is much more to it than just gluing a few pieces together - in my simple diatonic keybox there are more than 50 major components, more than 70 precision machining operations, and more than 50 specialized pieces of hardware.  Just for the keyslides and tangents INSIDE the box - I'm not counting fitting the key ends, the external brass slide stops, not counting any of those things.  Just the region inside the keybox. I am glad I didn't know how hard this machine is to build even badly - I would never have given myself the chance.  But man, it makes you feel great to finally build one that works well and looks good - made me feel better than any other instrument I have built.

 

I have had similar questions to yours in the past, and have found some truth in the breakdown of what I will give here as an example of how it works for me.

 

I gave up on the idea of even half of my hopeful sales price on any instrument being profit.  This after years of trying every way I can.  Once you count labor, not even my PVC flutes and whistles deliver that return regularly, and I can mass produce them.

 

I spend a lot of time (almost all of my time that I am not working my day job as an I.T. administrator) making one-of-a-kind or limited production run medieval instruments that I can't regularly sell no matter how beautiful they are or how good they sound - I live in Northwest Arkansas and I prefer to sell in person rather than on speculation, so my market for medieval instruments customers is not vast.  I have sources for all sorts of materials at ridiculously low prices, I have a fully outfitted shop for wood, metal, and natural materials productions (like skin, horn, antler), I have many friends who can provide technical information for free.  And I have yet to find in any of these instruments the magic formula you are speaking of.  I can say that even a simple instrument like a gourd banjo could be built for $60 materials and that level of instrument sold for $180, but that $60 doesn't count the time and shop resources needed to shape parts and fit parts (sandpaper, saw blades, tool maintenance, not labor costs) or finishing materials.  This is with the ability to do every operation in-house.  If I had to have an operation like resawing my neck stock done for me, I still couldn't charge more for the finished instrument but it would cost more just in materials and material prep, not counting my labor.

 

I have built a few gurdies, and while I loved the process and was able to do everything myself (bearings, wheel collars, adjustable tangents, wheel truing and runout setup, wood milling and the like) I could only do that because I have 1200 square feet of almost every tool you could think of, both power and hand, that I have collected over the past 28 years.  Vlad by now has probably heard some stories of my shop from a friend of his who stayed with me a few weeks ago, this is not the average home craftsman shop.

 

I can say that I spent less than $400 each for the materials for my gurdies - simple sinphone style instruments with a few modern features like a chein.  Not fully developed modern instruments, and without a lot of extra fanciness.  But I also will say that I couldn't sell these instruments regularly for more than about $1000, likely less.  Once you figure in tool and cutter maintenance for the lathe and mill, bandsaw blade replacement and maintenance on the saw, replacables like drill bits and sandpaper and the like, you are still at less than 50% profit without counting the time you put in.

 

Going back to the gourd banjo (banjer), My level of experience with building instruments allowed me to cut and fully finish the neck and spike in less than a day of labor, and to fit it and finish the instrument in less than a second day of labor (not 2 days, but less than 16 hours total).  Everyone who saw this was amazed at how quickly I was able to do this work - my speed is not average.  So assuming that I had 14 hours of actual labor time involved, and assume that I have $15 in finishing materials and replaceables cost, this works out to $115 for 14 hours of work or about $8.20 per hour for labor.  Add in 15-20 hours spent researching and learning and designing before I even cut wood, and you are down at less than $4 per hour for the first instrument.  IF I was going to build in production, the next instruments wouldn't ever take me significantly less than the 14 hour mark, and so the best I could hope for (even growing the gourds, drying them myself, growing the goats, processing the hides, finding sheep and making my own gut strings wouldn't lower the cost, in fact, only the gourd growing might prove beneficial to the bottom line) is about $8.25 per hour.  Below poverty level work.  So if I want to make a better living, I have to end up making fancier instruments for somewhere around the same amount of time, instruments I can sell for a lot more without putting a lot more into them materials and construction time.  But that still brings me to having to spend at least half of what I would sell a basic instrument for in parts alone, and this is where you run into your problem.

 

To build a gurdy that would reasonably sell to someone other than a single lucky find of a customer who wasn't studying the market, only your instrument, for more than $1200 in today's market would have to have features equal to Mel and Anne's base models, and that goes beyond what I built (and by the way, still haven't sold).  In order to acquire the materials and actually convert the parts into what Mel and Anne sell as a kit would cost me, with my amazing shop and years of experience (and I'm not as good as many who do this and barely make a living) I could only beat the kit cost by a couple or three hundred at best, and that would be leaning on my supplier friends pretty hard and not counting any of my labor.  Wouldn't want to do it that way more than once.  Without my shop there would be no way to come close to what you would get from the HGC kits for the same or likely twice the money.

 

I have sold very few instruments, given away many more, and I do this because I love it and I don't expect it to pay for itself or even come close.  I have a moraharp on the bench right now because I really love the instrument, and if someone were to buy it once finished I would be sad and have to build another to have to play with.  Same with my jouhikko, my crwth, all my various harps and citoles and rebecs and lyres and my couple of gurdies.

 

I would love to make a sustenance living on my craft, it brings me that much joy.  But because it brings me that much joy, I still do it even though it costs me.  And yes, if you have a handsaw, a good coping saw, some planes, scrapers and rasps, a good set of chisels, some good hand carving knives and a drill press and are willing to pay for a few parts in the wheel area, you could probably build a gurdy out of reclaimed materials and a soundboard from spruce carefully chosen from the local home store.  And it wouldn't cost you more than $200 in very raw materials.  If you are a craftsman with my abilities or higher, you could make it look professional, and with people who are willing to help you may make your first one from scratch sound pretty good (I did, but after all the mods and reworks, the first one doesn't look good anymore.  That is why it was my prototype).  But it is unlikely, if not impossible, to find a way to build for less than $500 and sell for more than $1200 unless you are fully set up to produce and already knowledgeable in the aspects of design and setup that make the instrument worth buying.  And once you are there, you have already sunk WAY more money than you are talking about into it (trust me, I know personally very well).

 

It has been done before, rarely, but for the most part this is not the kind of machine that an amateur can build successfully first time on the budget that a pro has to maintain in order to be profitable without all the special dedicated tooling and experience in designs and correcting issues on the fly that the pros have (and ask them, they still throw out way too many pieces and even the occasional completed instrument because it got away from them)

 

You can, as an amateur gurdy builder (not an amateur luthier, but specifically a gurdy maker) build a functional instrument, even a nice sounding one, first time out.  But be prepared to make most parts at least twice, spend money on things you didn't think you would need, spend dozens or hundreds of hours in frustration, travelling to examine and play with good sounding instruments, it is ultimately possible.  But only when the proper planets are aligned, the Gurdy elves are sitting in your shop correcting for free every night while you sleep your daily miscalculations, and the aliens have arrived to transfer the knowledge of the great gurdy building masters directly into your head could you do it on the budget you propose with the profit you desire.

 

This is one instrument that you build because you really have to build it, not because you have any hope of recouping your cost.  If you don't absolutely have to build it, you will be better off 99.9% of the time having someone with a LOT more experience build it for you, or at least do all the really hard work.  If you are only building it to see if you can, then expecting it to bring the kind of return a professionally built instrument may occasionally bring, then you should take a closer look at this particular project, because you are missing something.

 

Chris

[Michael McMillan]

Hi Mike--

Don't buy a kit just because you don't have enough money for a finished one. You have to enjoy woodworking and have some aptitude for it, and some tools. If that isn't your thing, just save more money -- have a big garage sale, or something. Making a hurdy-gurdy is like having a second job -- one that you don't get paid for [at least not in money], but with satisfaction in doing the work and seeing it progress.

 

> I don't think I can tackle a Hurdy Gurdy from scratch and can't really afford the kit.  Is there any middle ground out there somewhere?

 

A kit *is* the middle ground, between scratch-built and ready-made. The only middle ground between scratch-built and a kit is getting some critical parts pre-made. Mel and Ann sell individual components, the things too hard to make yourself. But you're just creating a ton of work for yourself having to make the rest from scratch, trying to save a little money. Plus, you will need more tools, have to find the right kinds of woods yourself, etc. And it will be less likely to work right. A kit is the *minimum,* as far as I'm concerned. It's still a huge challenge, though it can be very enjoyable. But it isn't like a snap-together model airplane kit!

 

> I need to make an HG that ultimately can be sold, so quality has to be there

 

I don't know why you're already talking about selling it, but the more you do yourself, the less you have to be willing to get for it. You may be very good, but people are naturally going to understandably question its 'amateur' construction. [A well-made kit can be put together inaccurately.] This is especially true if you are thinking of selling it online, where people can't really tell what they're getting. And where are you going to find someone local just dying to buy a homemade hurdy-gurdy?

 

> I can't shell out $900 for a complete kit and only sell the HG for $1200

 

You'd have to expect that, maybe. You might get your money back for it, but you cannot plan to make a bunch of money off the months you spent making it. If selling it is a big issue, then get a ready-made one. It costs more, but you can be assured of getting your money back, right?

 

I'm making a Hurdy Gurdy Crafters kit. No way I'm going to sell it after putting so much work into it! It won't be as good as a pro's because I'm an amateur, which means I might be introducing problems I'm not aware of yet, but I'll still like it better because I made it myself. People are different, but I'd never bother with the committment required for a kit, all the while planning to sell it later. Better to have one of HGC's finished ones, with that goal in mind.

 

Michael

http://harvey-house.info/blog-hg/

[Michael McMillan]

Mike--

 

This may seem a joke, but it is a true story. Back in the 1990's I told myself I couldn't afford a hurdy-gurdy kit, much less a ready-to-play one. I found this web page:

 

HOW TO MAKE A VERY NICE SOUNDING HURDY GURDY FOR UNDER $20
http://dennishavlena.com/hurdy.htm

 

So, I made a hurdy-gurdy totally from scratch based upon this sketchy information. It did cost me over $20, though! I've played it in public and even won a talent contest with it. I still have it. It was fun to make, but it is more of a frustration and noise generator than a musical instrument. Making this "toy" one more than ever inspired me to want a "real" one. If I had gotten the kit back then, I could have been playing something nice the last 10+ years. So, don't try to cut too many corners...

 

 --Michael

 

 

 

On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 7:40 PM, maesoph <aesoph...@yahoo.com> wrote:

[timw]

Hello Mike,
I am new to the world of hurdy gurdy's and this is my first post on
this forum. We seem to be in similar circumstances, want a hurdy gurdy
but find it hard to spend the money, for whatever reasons. I decided
to build my own. I build furniture as a hobby, but have never made a
musical instrument. I started making tools for and reading about
violin-making. During one of my internet searches for violin-making I
stumbled upon information on hurdy gurdys...then I found out the cost,
Gulp.

I found a beautiful set of plans that Graeme McCormack graciously
offers for free download. He has a website at
http://sites.google.com/site/mccormackgraeme/antiquatedstrings

His website is called Antiquated Strings. I think he has three
different models that he's made and they are truly beautiful. I chose
'Jiri", his lute-backed gurdy. I too thought I couldn't make
something so complicated, but what do I have to lose? I never carved
anything before but have finished the carved peghead and it turned out
great. Now I KNOW I can do it. I think you can build one from scratch
too. Don't imagine the finished gurdy, but break it down into baby
steps. Enlarge your plans to full-size, pick one piece and build it,
build the next piece, and so on.

This is going to be a journy, but costs will be minimal and I will
learn alot in the process. I think you could build one! Tim

[timw]

Test Post. I responded to this post a week ago. It said post was
successful but it still hasn't showed up. Test Test.

On Oct 17, 5:40 pm, maesoph <aesoph_fam...@yahoo.com> wrote:

[Augusto de Ornellas Abreu]

Just be prepared to spend a lot more than the cost of a luthier-made gurdy if you want to build your own.

 

You will have to go through many fumbled attempts when building each of the pieces, you will have to make your own specialized tools, you will need to get a hold of some expensive equipment to make those tools and many of the specialized parts (you can save by buying some more difficult parts from HGCrafters, etc, for example)

 

Building a gurdy from scratch makes no sense if you think about cost only. You will probably spend way more than if you just bought one from a maker.

[cwhill]

How strange, I just got several mails several days old as well!
Your test came through OK though.

Colin Hill

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[Alden F M Hackmann]

I was away on vacation for a week and a half, just now returning to post the messages that needed to be cleared. My apologies for not getting to these sooner.

Alden F.M. Hackmann dark...@u.washington.edu

"Beati illi qui in circulum circumeunt, fient enim magnae rotae."

[Steven Tucker]

That is a very curious statement to make: That it will cost a lot of money to make your own instrument.

I'm fairly certain that most hurdy gurdies made in the last thousand years prior to the 1950s were all made with hand tools -- probably just a few saws, a carving knife, and maybe a gouge or two.  Sure, you can use a 10,000 dollar band saw to cut the wood, but a hand made Bow Saw will work just fine.  It will take about twenty times longer is all.

Perhaps you're also accounting for time spent.  With expensive specialized tools and jigs a professional builder might take 20 to 200 hours building an instrument (depending on the "add-ons" such as inlay).  A beginning woodworker with a couple of hand tools might expect to spend 50 to 500 hundred hours building a relatively simple instrument.

So if you are one of those people who believe that the only instrument worth having is one with superior craftsmanship, exquisite detail work, a flawless mirror finish, and a famous maker's name, then you'll just have to pay the big money.  If you're a musician and just want a great sounding personal instrument (and don't have a rich uncle or girlfriend) then I say grab the tools you have, gather the materials you can find and start putting in some hours.

-S

[Elizabeth Gilmore]

Great, I am hoping for advice on what strings to buy for my hungarian hurdy gurdy..... it has 3 strings, 1 melody, 2 drones.... its an early Nagy Balasz piece.....thanks

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[Dave Leonard]

Just jumping in on this, I have built several hurdy-gurdies from scratch. Only the first one had playing issues. I use only typical shop tools that most garage tinkerers would have around (antique table say, Chinese scroll saw, small Chinese drill press and small bench sander and a bunch of basic hand tools, and some homemade spool clamps. I have less into my shop tools than most people pay for a new hurdy-gurdy from a reputable builder, and I can use them over and over for other projects. I have never spent more than $150 dollars for instrument parts, and have not spent more than three or four months of three to six hour days about four days a week on building one. It is fun and only requires a modest amount of woodworking skill and a lot of patience. Anyone who has heard my hurdy-gurdy I've been playing since 2000 can vouch for the sound quality. The looks are a bit primitive compared to the fit and finish of someone who does this for a living, but it does have a rather cool handmade folk look to it. Perfect for the corner beggar-man hurdy-gurdy player. Besides that, it was fun to build!

Dave in Michigan

 

The Hurdy-Gurdy Man,

---

From: Steven Tucker <steven...@gmail.com>
To: hurdy...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 4:16 PM
Subject: Re: [HG-new] Re: Affordable Hurdy Gurdy Construction

[Alden F M Hackmann]

On Mon, 24 Oct 2011, Steven Tucker wrote:

> That is a very curious statement to make: That it will cost a lot of money to make your own instrument.

For a professional level of instrument, I believe this is the case.

> I'm fairly certain that most hurdy gurdies made in the last thousand years prior to the 1950s were all made with hand tools -- probably just a few

> saws, a carving knife, and maybe a gouge or two. ï¿œSure, you can use a 10,000 dollar band saw to cut the wood, but a hand made Bow Saw will work
> just fine. ï¿œIt will take about twenty times longer is all.

Wow, what shop bandsaw costs $10,000?

> Perhaps you're also accounting for time spent. ï¿œWith expensive specialized tools and jigs a professional builder might take 20 to 200 hours
> building an instrument (depending on the "add-ons" such as inlay). ï¿œA beginning woodworker with a couple of hand tools might expect to spend 50 to

> 500 hundred hours building a relatively simple instrument.
>

> So if you are one of those people who believe that the only instrument worth having is one with superior craftsmanship,ï¿œexquisite detail work, a
> flawless mirror finish, and a famous maker's name, then you'll just have to pay the big money. ï¿œIf you're a musician and just want a great

> sounding personal instrument (and don't have a rich uncle or girlfriend) then I say grab the tools you have, gather the materials you can find and
> start putting in some hours.

I wish it were that simple. It's not just a matter of time, and it's not just a matter of tools: it's a matter of skill. As builders, we serve the sound of the instrument, and to get a really good sound requires substantial skill, time, good tools, and good materials. If you set out to build a hurdy-gurdy, be prepared to find that the first one is essentially an experiment to lead you down the path to building the second, and probably a third.

I'm not trying to dissuade people from building their own instruments, just to dissuade them from having unrealistic expectations about doing so.

For what it's worth, the old builders who sawed their own wood to thickness and cut it with planes and saws and scrapers and files were AMAZING. However, they also spent years and years learning their craft as apprentices, so that by the time they were building, they had amassed ten or twenty solid years of hand skills that I can only dream of having. That's not 500 hours, it's more like 25,000 hours. The Industrial Revolution changed all that, and now we do it differently, investing money in tools instead of time in skills. Either way, to get a good quality result, you're going to have to make an investment somewhere.

[Augusto de Ornellas Abreu]

Exactly

 

you will eventually get a good instrument, and have a lot of fun along the way. But, by the time you manage that, you will have spent more money in trial and error and building gurdy-shaped objects that sound terrible than a normal starter-level instrument costs from a reputable maker...

 

Isn't it obvious?

 

By all means, DO build a gurdy of your own. I would do it myself if I got the skill and time for it. But don't do it if you intend only to save money. You won't save any money, you'll most certainly spend more. For some people it's worth it, but it is not certainly cost-effective.

 

Augusto

On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 9:57 PM, Alden F M Hackmann <dark...@u.washington.edu> wrote:

On Mon, 24 Oct 2011, Steven Tucker wrote:

That is a very curious statement to make: That it will cost a lot of money to make your own instrument.

For a professional level of instrument, I believe this is the case.

I'm fairly certain that most hurdy gurdies made in the last thousand years prior to the 1950s were all made with hand tools -- probably just a few

saws, a carving knife, and maybe a gouge or two.  Sure, you can use a 10,000 dollar band saw to cut the wood, but a hand made Bow Saw will work
just fine.  It will take about twenty times longer is all.

Wow, what shop bandsaw costs $10,000?

Perhaps you're also accounting for time spent.  With expensive specialized tools and jigs a professional builder might take 20 to 200 hours
building an instrument (depending on the "add-ons" such as inlay).  A beginning woodworker with a couple of hand tools might expect to spend 50 to

500 hundred hours building a relatively simple instrument.

So if you are one of those people who believe that the only instrument worth having is one with superior craftsmanship, exquisite detail work, a
flawless mirror finish, and a famous maker's name, then you'll just have to pay the big money.  If you're a musician and just want a great

sounding personal instrument (and don't have a rich uncle or girlfriend) then I say grab the tools you have, gather the materials you can find and
start putting in some hours.

I wish it were that simple.  It's not just a matter of time, and it's not just a matter of tools: it's a matter of skill.  As builders, we serve the sound of the instrument, and to get a really good sound requires substantial skill, time, good tools, and good materials.  If you set out to build a hurdy-gurdy, be prepared to find that the first one is essentially an experiment to lead you down the path to building the second, and probably a third.

I'm not trying to dissuade people from building their own instruments, just to dissuade them from having unrealistic expectations about doing so.

For what it's worth, the old builders who sawed their own wood to thickness and cut it with planes and saws and scrapers and files were AMAZING.  However, they also spent years and years learning their craft as apprentices, so that by the time they were building, they had amassed ten or twenty solid years of hand skills that I can only dream of having.  That's not 500 hours, it's more like 25,000 hours.  The Industrial Revolution changed all that, and now we do it differently, investing money in tools instead of time in skills.  Either way, to get a good quality result, you're going to have to make an investment somewhere.


Alden F.M. Hackmann                        dark...@u.washington.edu

"Beati illi qui in circulum circumeunt, fient enim magnae rotae."

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[Pete]

How about some pics?

 

Pete from Estacada

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[timw]

I am building my first Hurdy Gurdy and hope this thread will keep
going. The more ideas and opinions shared means the more new builders
can learn. Whether you choose to buy or build, the main thing is to
keep hurdy gurdy information from going the way of the dinosaur. I
hope to add to this forum sharing photos and ideas from my first gurdy
build.

I found out about hurdy gurdys on the internet while searching violin-
making websites. There are many violin-making books, blogs, websites,
etc., but information on building gurdies is scarce. Building notes
and sharing ideas on gurdy construction should be encouraged, and this
seems like a great site for that. Like any craft, a builder can start
with basics and take it to any level he/she likes.

I feel encouraged with the carving of my first peghead and hope it is
just the first of many. I was able to start this journey with plans
shared by Graeme McCormack of Antiquated Strings. I really appreciate
a forum like this for sharing all aspects of the hurdy gurdy.

Thanks, Tim

[Dave Leonard]

I have some pictures on this site:

http://woodysmusic.ning.com/profile/DaveLeonard

Here it is again in case this group is set up not to like links.

http://woodysmusic.ning.com/profile/DaveLeonard

There is a photos section there in the menu at the left. I have a few pics with the hurdy-gurdy in them. The music starts playing automatically, and most don't have a hurdy gurdy in them, but it's easy to shut off. That's on the left, too.. I singy traditional Celtic and American folk ballads and usually just use the hurdy-gurdy for vocal backup. I've been told by many that the old modal ballads (murder, dark and sad types) I play sound perfectly "right" using the hurdy-gurdy this way. When I do complex melodies, I use my fiddle or 5-string banjo, which I've played a lot longer. I built my first gurdy in 1998 and have made a total of ten, three of which were special ordered. I kept number eight for myself, as my then teenage daughter did the artwork and swore she'd never do that again! I've build a couple of dozen mountain dulcimers, a couple of large sized gourd banjos, three minstrel type banjos,  a half dozen or so bodhrans and three Irish bouzouki's so far. Most of them did not have an extreme amount of high end fit and finish, but looked good as a folk craft type instrument. I did make a bouzouki with a very professional look for a friend for as a Christmas gift (he was a teen and his father commissioned it). That may have taken longer to make than any of my gurdies did. Not sure right off where pics of these other instrument's are, as I stopped building about six years ago and put everything away (still tinker in the shop some). I have RA and it's too much effort these days to build anything complex. I still play gigs, though, with a local group called Tinkers Folly. I'll keep playing as long as I can make music on something.

Dave in Michigan

 

The Hurdy-Gurdy Man,

---

From: Pete <pha...@cascadeaccess.com>
To: hurdy...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 8:25 PM

[timw]

Here is a link to a homemade carver's vise that worked great for me
while carving my first peghead. I was frustrated trying to hold my
tapered peghead blank in a traditional woodworker's vise and looked
for an inexpensive alternative. This type of vise holds your work rock-
solid and is simple to cobble together. There are many sites that
offer this style. One site is:

http://www.jerryhartzell.com/wood-carving-on-a-budget/jerrys-wood-carving-vise/

This worked very well for me. Tim

[Dave Leonard]

I just found this post in my spam folder. Not sure why it went there, as this doesn't usually happen. Maybe my yahoo mail is jealous of googlegroups? :)

Dave

 

The Hurdy-Gurdy Man,

---

From: timw <kf6...@surewest.net>
To: hurdygurdy <hurdy...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2011 1:14 PM
Subject: [HG-new] Re: Affordable Hurdy Gurdy Construction

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[Kazimierz Verkmastare]

There seems to be a non-argument argument going on about this topic.  There are several levels of gurdys, and several levels of music to be played.  I for one am quite satisfied with my very first sinphone, as far as playing quasi-medieval and simple Celtic and faked Breton folk music goes it does well.  But I wouldn't dare try to play some of the more complicated dance stuff.  And if you gave it to Giles or Patrick and asked them, they would probably politely say "It is a very nice instrument' and fiddle around on it for a while getting the most out of it's potential, but they would never want to use it to perform.  And that is OK.

 

Because simply, I built a wheel fiddle with a tangent keybox, and it works fine.  But I have heard and played around on really good gurdies, and mine simply doesn't compare in any real valuable way.  There are things about a full-featured gurdy that cannot be accomplished without professional fit and finish, without hundreds or thousands of hours of research and experimentation (or at least access to someone who already has the answers and is willing to help).  So what I built is more of a gurdy than your typical HGLO, but it is not a fine instrument.  And a fine instrument is what a lot of players want when they start, because they want the nuance, the undertones, the life that they hear coming from a good instrument, not the well-intoned and just-tempered professional cat torture noises that are the sounds produced by a simple wheel fiddle.

 

I watch the videos of Patrick and Giles and Melissa and others who play well on full-featured gurdies, and I realize that I am going to have to either buy or build a better instrument before I can fulfill my dream of playing the things that only gurdies (not simple wheel-fiddles) can play.  It is sort of like saying you built a really great Moraharp.  If what you want to play is the music of the 1600's and you are satisfied with the limitations of the instrument, then you succeeded, but you did not build a really nice example of what the world considers a nyckleharp.  And such it is, in my experience, with the early examples of individuals handmade gurdies.  And if you are not looking to improve fit and finish and features, you stay at the level of building nice, but inherantly limited, instruments that are imminently suitable for the more basic roles.

 

This is not to belittle first-time builders, the work most produce is better by far than some of the cheaper 'production' instruments or earlier kits would ever be.  But until you get your hands on a professionally build, professionally engineered full featured gurdy (not the high-end stuff, but most makers midrange instruments) and actually spend some time experiencing firsthand the nearly limitless possibilities from one of these instruments, you won't be able to properly categorize your own work or know how to improve it.  I know, I was crushed when I had to actually compare my sinphone to a real full-featured gurdy.  Took a while for me to become happy with my instrument again, but only with the realization that it does what I need it to do very well, but doesn't do what I want ultimately to do at all.

 

So I think the statements being made here are for those who are more player than builder, or at least equal parts of both.  When you approach the gurdy with the idea that you ultimately want to be a performer the level of Patrick or Giles, then you want the ultimate from your instrument, and it is nearly impossible to build as an amateur an instrument of this quality on a ridiculously low budget and without a bunch of tools.  But if you are a tinkerer, and like to build something that works and your musical and performance goals aren't as lofty as the aforementioned pros, then your chances of meeting your expectations suddenly increase.

 

I for one am an avid craftsman who wants the best gurdy that can be made, and don't want to buy it because I simply need to (part of my genetics, I guess) be responsible for the design and construction of this modern masterpiece.  I have been working on my opus for several years now, working, fitting, reworking, refining, learning, getting close to finished and throwing the whole thing away and starting over, and I know that I have piled 2 or 3 times the money in materials, tools, and time into this thing than it would have cost to buy a great gurdy from a pro.  Each of my projects would have yielded an instrument imminently playable and exponentially better than my current sinphone, and even unfinished they have been of value.  But as none would lead to what I want out of this next gurdy, there was no use putting more investment into them.

 

So here it is in a nutshell.  A tinkerer can build a nice folk/pirate/'Celtic' simple wheel fiddle with nice tone and the ability to play to a certain level, and can expect to be able to build it first try with some tinkering, and if that is your ultimate goal, then you will be 100% satisfied.  A tinkerer will most likely not build a full featured, professionally balanced and voiced instrument that suits the needs of higher end performers until building and experimenting with a whole lot of not-up-to-par instruments, and along the way will discover that Gurdy makers do not make an obscene profit, their raw budget is usually more than most folks want to spend on a finished instrument, and the margin is close.  

 

A high-level performer, wanting a great instrument, does not have the same odds of creating one himself first (or fifth, for that matter), especially if the prime consideration is budgetary.  

 

The individual who wants desperately to build an instrument that provides sounds similar to the things they hear on CD, because of the novelty or uniqueness of the instrument, can build a functional 'hurdy gurdy sound generator' without too much fuss, but it won't generate every HG sound, or do so with the quality of a professional instrument.  But it will satisfy the majority of fiddlers.

 

But the individual addicted to craftwork, who is also driven to own and use the best instruments to the best of his abilities, will fail or succeed on the merits of his determination and the limits of his wallet.  The professionals came mostly from this group, and if you are in this group, you already know the answer to "is there an affordable way to build a really good HG".  It is simply "How affordable is a couple of thousand or more dollars to your budget?"

 

Chris

> Just jumping in on this, I have built several hurdy-gurdies from

> scratch. Only the first one had playing issues. I use only typical

> shop tools that most garage tinkerers would have around (antique

> table say, Chinese scroll saw, small Chinese drill press and small

> bench sander and a bunch of basic hand tools, and some homemade

> spool clamps. I have less into my shop tools than most people pay

> for a new hurdy-gurdy from a reputable builder, and I can use them

> over and over for other projects. I have never spent more than $150

> dollars for instrument parts, and have not spent more than three or

> four months of three to six hour days about four days a week on

> building one. It is fun and only requires a modest amount of

> woodworking skill and a lot of patience. Anyone who has heard my

> hurdy-gurdy I've been playing since 2000

> can vouch for the sound quality. The looks are a bit primitive

> compared to the fit and finish of someone who does this for a

> living, but it does have a rather cool handmade folk look to it.

> Perfect for the corner beggar-man hurdy-gurdy player. Besides that,

> it was fun to build!

>

>

> Dave in Michigan

>

>

> The Hurdy-Gurdy Man,

>

>

[Steven Tucker]

On Mon, 24 Oct 2011, Steven Tucker wrote:

That is a very curious statement to make: That it will cost a lot of money to make your own instrument.

 

On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 4:57 PM, Alden F M Hackmann <dark...@u.washington.edu> wrote:

For a professional level of instrument, I believe this is the case.

Still looking for details as to where the money will be spent.  What tools would you consider essential to build an instrument, and why would it not be possible to use a cheaper alternative? 

For example I know from experience that it's possible to tune up a cheap $15 hand plane to work just as well as a high quality $300 hand plane. (Although I admit there's no point in sharpening a $2 plane blade when there are Hock blades for under $40.)

. . .

 Wow, what shop bandsaw costs $10,000?

Perhaps I should have put "$10,000" in quotes.  It's something of an in-joke among the luthiers I know.  However, any good re-sawing band saw that will handle up to 24" boards will run you from $8,000 upwards of $20,000. 

I wish it were that simple.  It's not just a matter of time, and it's not just a matter of tools: it's a matter of skill.  As builders, we serve the sound of the instrument, and to get a really good sound requires substantial skill, time, good tools, and good materials. [snip. . .]

I suppose any argument here depends on what you mean by "really good" sound.  It is possible in this Internet age for a complete beginner to do enough research to find out what exactly makes for an exceptional sounding instrument and to devise testing and analysis methods to actually create an exceptional sounding instrument.  Although I freely admit that the Gurdy's Chladni patterns, acoustic response characteristics, frequency response curves, etc. have not been mapped out so far as I can tell. 

So here's another question for you all:  Is there an exceptional "Gurdy" sound?  To a Classical Guitar player and a Flamenco Guitar player there is a huge difference in sound between a Classical Guitar and a Flamenco Guitar -- to anyone else they sound the same.  Is this true for the Hurdy Gurdy as well?  All of the various gurdies I've heard in person (YouTube doesn't count) have all had their own individual "voices", most quite different from the others.  Would anyone ever say about a hurdy gurdy "that's an interesting sounding instrument, but it doesn't sound like a hurdy gurdy"?

As to good materials, I know several luthiers who won't use anything but old growth European Spruce grown above 7000' on a north slope.  But then I've heard several exceptional sounding guitars built from locally sourced coastal Douglas Fir. (and one really good sounding guitar built by Bob Taylor made from a shipping pallet.)

 

I'm not trying to dissuade people from building their own instruments, just to dissuade them from having unrealistic expectations about doing so.

I'll go back to my original contention (unstated) that it's not only possible, but probable, for a beginner to build a well-working, good-sounding, playable instrument without spending very much money provided they are willing to put in many more hours than would be reasonable in any production or professional level shop.  Lack of skill and knowledge can be overcome by time and diligence.

-Steve

P.S.

For what it's worth, the old builders who sawed their own wood to thickness and cut it with planes and saws and scrapers and files were AMAZING.  However, they also spent years and years learning their craft as apprentices, so that by the time they were building, they had amassed ten or twenty solid years of hand skills that I can only dream of having.  That's not 500 hours, it's more like 25,000 hours.  The Industrial Revolution changed all that, and now we do it differently, investing money in tools instead of time in skills.  Either way, to get a good quality result, you're going to have to make an investment somewhere.

Ok, this is off topic from the original thread, but I have to say my understanding of the apprentice system is that the seven years working in the shop was required to pay back the master who only slowly doled out the knowledge, since he was effectively training his own competition.  That's still true today. 

[Dave Leonard]

Chris,

(disclaimer: everything I write is my own opinion :) )

I'm not trying to start an argument, only want to state my own experience in a friendly way. I agree with much that you have wrote, but disagree with this:

"The individual who wants desperately to build an instrument that provides sounds similar to the things they hear on CD, because of the novelty or uniqueness of the instrument, can build a functional 'hurdy gurdy sound generator' without too much fuss, but it won't generate every HG sound, or do so with the quality of a professional instrument.  But it will satisfy the majority of fiddlers."

Someone who really wants to build a fine instrument with a modest but adequate wood shop setup, can, if they are patient, have woodworking experience and do their homework, build a very good sounding instrument that can be used for any level of playing. Maybe not the first instrument, but within a few builds. Material cost is no more for a handmade one than a pro one (good wood is good wood). I've been using mine for 12 years now and have it played by a few pros, and have had it in many festival workshops (including some I hosted) where it was played among other gurdy players and it held it's own as well as any three stringed model there, including some big name ones. I've had people come up to me and say they liked the sweet tone of mine better than the brasher tone of some expensive instruments there. It was built with the idea of having a sweet tone at a volume level comfortable to sing with. The tone on all of them will vary a lot from one maker to the next, so who is to say which sounds best between instruments? As a violin repairman, I have played and set up hundreds of violins, starting long before I tried building an instrument. I've played these one after the other and have been amazed how greatly similar looking instruments can sound so different regardless of maker's reputation. Much (but certainly not all) of the key is the final set-up and tuning. I've actually heard a cheap Chinese violin sound better than some well known vintage ones from reputable builders. I set up a $150 Chinese violin and a couple of good vintage ones once the best I could make them. I did this comparison for some friends of mine, and more chose the cheap violin over the Europen one (that was much better built) for tone. One can never tell what someone else will prefer. Stradivari or Stainer? Who's to say which is better (I play an old Hopf and love it!) I know a guy with a beautiful homemade violin he built a few years ago. It's the only one he's made so far. Looks and sounds very good, and plays with a good feel. He never made one before, nor has he built another, but he has tinkered with wood a long time.

Believe me, I'm not trying to belittle pro makers. These instruments take a long time to make and are worth paying a lot of money for. It's just not the way some of us choose to go who are still picky about the sound and playability of their instruments. Some of us just plain can't afford one, too.

I may have used the wrong phrase when I said "fit and finish". My instrument has everything fitting pretty good, but was intentionally not finished with a high quality finish and looks primitive. I wanted it to look "folky", like a street beggar would use. If I wanted to make it look professional, I would have, although it would have taken longer to finish (I'm not known for extreme patience when making something for myself). :) Even my first mountain dulcimer looked and sounded very good, and by number three was holding its own with pro models, both looks and sounds. I have also made a very good looking Irish bouzouki that plays very well after two practice instruments. It was custom ordered and the buyer is very pleased with it and plays professionally. I've had others ask me to make one just like it, but I wasn't interested. I've had no training other than a high school shop class back in the stone age, but have a great love of both woodworking and tinkering. I'm sure I'm not unique.

Not trying to start an argument, just pointing out that someone with a lot of woodworking skill and already has some shop tools can, indeed, make a great instrument in just a few tries, and save money. However, they need good woodworking skills, good plans for the first one, anyway, and a hell of a lot of patience (not to mention a lot of spare time). Not many can do this, but some can (I know another guy I met at a festival a few years back who has built three so far that I know of. The last two would past muster with anyone but the most picky musicians possible). I would never discourage someone from giving it a try, but would caution them on what to expect. I also would not recommend buying a lot of tools just to build one and try to save money. If you have the tools already and woodworking experience, and are willing to spend the time, you can get very good results without spending a lot.

BTW, I probably put more time into fine tuning the instrument after it was built than it took to build it. Setup, again...

Dave :)

The Hurdy-Gurdy Man,

---

From: Kazimierz Verkmastare <k...@nogy.net>
To: hurdy...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2011 1:24 PM

[Dave Leonard]

Hmm, my band saw is a recent model and cost under $200 new. It cuts about a 14 inch wide board, which is all I have needed to build any instrument I've tackled so far. My table saw is an antique Sears Craftsman with a rigged up motor put on it, A Chinese 5-speed drill press I bought new around 15 years ago on sale for $50, a $150 Dremel scroll saw,  Delta bench sander (don't remember the price, but was not expensive, and a bunch of modest priced hand tools, including homemade wood spool clamps. Everything does a nice job and sure beats the tools used by the masters a few hundred years ago.

See my other post I made before reading this one. :)

Dave

 

The Hurdy-Gurdy Man,

---

From: Steven Tucker <steven...@gmail.com>
To: hurdy...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2011 4:52 PM

Subject: Re: [HG-new] Re: Affordable Hurdy Gurdy Construction

[cwhill]

Not having the skills I wouldn't attempt to built one myself but I have
plenty of experience in other woodworking projects.
True, you could chip away with a lump of flint and eventually make a HG
I suppose but, after years of messing around with the "wrong" tool or
"making do" with a cheap version, there is just no comparison in the
final project. All woodworking tools should be precision instruments.
Good tools stay sharp longer (blunt tools damage the work). I used a
cheap set of chisels for years and then, when I broke one, I splashed
out on a good one and what a difference it made. Not only to the finish
but also (and this is maybe more important) the amount of time it took
me to do the job.
If you are going to spend a reasonable amount of money on the parts,
it's a shame to ruin them with cheap tools.
Comparison can be made with a good wine and a bottle of cheap stuff. The
cheap stuff may taste OK but when you compare it to a decent
vintage.................
I used to make whistles from elder twigs as a child and they played. Not
quite the same quality as a decent recorder though.
No, you don't need to build a steinway piano but, considering all the
bits you would need to buy, I can't see the point of making something
out of an orange crate even if it does make a piano sound.
Just my opinion of course.
Maybe one should think about building a car from scratch or buying one
from a dealer who has all the jigs etc. I know which I'd try for - even
if I had to save for longer to get it.

Colin Hill

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[Augusto de Ornellas Abreu]

You can build your own. But do it for your own amusement, for the sake of the journey, NOT TO SAVE MONEY.

that was my only point, but somehow it hasn't gone through to many yet...

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[Tony Vincent]

On 26/10/2011 1:47 p.m., Augusto de Ornellas Abreu wrote:
> You can build your own. But do it for your own amusement, for the sake
> of the journey, NOT TO SAVE MONEY.
>
> that was my only point, but somehow it hasn't gone through to many yet...

At the risk of getting my head slapped here......You are assuming that
your right?

I don't see why a professional builder is able to do a successful job
and an amateur not able to do so.
We/you are assuming that all pros. are expert and all amateurs are, to a
degree less able.

I've seen a few posts here decrying some of the professional builders
with a veiled warning to beginners to avoid some products which
indicates that there is an opinion that there is varying degree of skill
amoung the pro builders.

I have built my own HG (didn't turn out too well I must admit but the
second was 100% better) as well as quite a few guitars, banjos and
fiddles and other more complex instruments but as an 'amateur' (meaning
it's not my main source of income) I am somehow not able to make a
'decent' HG?...at a reasonable cost?

Sorry but I've been making 'things' of both wood and metal for over 50
years and take a little offense at being told that I am unable to build
something purely because I'm an amateur (I was an engineer).

The truth is that a HG is complex and a pain to build but no more so
than many other items. Ever tried building a harpsichord, a Nyckelharpa
or a Hardanger fiddle?

My opinion is that as a folk instrument it should be built by folk and
played by folk for folk.
My voice has been known to make grown men cry but that dosn't stop me
singing publicly any more than it stopped Johny Cash or Pete Seeger.

He should build his instrument and play it with pride. The cost will be
a fraction of a professional instrument and the sound will be not far
off either....certainly better than my voice I'm betting and lets face
it....who will know the difference between a great sound and a mediocre
one?

Our music is for the folk, played alone in your room or for the
masses....leave the snobbery for the whiskey and wine and let us get on
with our music.

Regards, TonyNZ

[Kazimierz Verkmastare]

Tony

 

You kind of make my point.

 

50 years of woodworking and metalworking experience, several instruments, this hardly qualifies you as an amateur craftsman, perhaps only an unexperienced gurdy builder, but with an engineering education and that much experience you are NOT the typical amateur.  And no, I am not using the income indicator as a definition, I am using the quality of work and experience indicator.

 

Almost everyone who has written has made a clear statement that if you are an experienced woodworker with sufficient tools and materials skills you CAN make a servicable instrument.  We are telling folks who for the most part start out saying that they are only limited in skill and resources that it is a better idea for them to buy then build.  You are a far cry from the average garage shop craftsman, and so am I.  I have built many, many instruments from kantele to gurdy and nyckleharp, I have never had this as my main source of income, and I build professional level instruments of many kinds.  I have been trained as a fine woodworker since I could walk, I inherited all the tools of both my grandfathers and my father, I have large supplies of materials and resources and knowledge and information, and I did build a successful gurdy my first time (though limited, it is a 4 string (2 drone, 2 chanter, no chein)) instrument that is NOT up to par with the more fully featured instruments.

 

And yes, I could build and am currently working on a fine, fully featured instrument in a 'disguise' of a late medieval piece from a lesser known Bosch painting (the one with the satyr playing the gurdy).  It is a project done for enjoyment, and because I am wasting resources as I am building knowledge, it is NOT going to be significantly more economical than if I had commissioned it.  But, like you, I am a very experienced craftsman, not an amateur.  I might say that if I had the specific HG experience of Eaton or Nagy or any of those whose profession is building fine instruments, I could easily match their quality and eye-ear appeal in a short time, as I believe I have 100% of the skills in place, just none of the specific knowledge.  But again, I, as you, are an exception.

 

Augusto is correct, for most people.  It is not building a supercollider, it is only building a complex musical instrument, and not beyond most humans abilities, if they choose to invest the time, money, and effort AND if they really have an interest in building it for more than money's sake.  If you look at the beautiful instrument that Patrick Bouffant plays on most of his youtube videos, and you want one like that, be ready to invest in your journey to build it probably as much as it would cost to buy it (unless you already have most of that investment in skills building, tool acquisition, and materials stock - then you have simply already spent it, it doesn't count any less in the completion of the project).

 

So sir, I am not going to slap you in the head.  But I will advise you to realize that you ARE a professional in all the ways that really matter - income only counts when you are talking about athletes.  So those of us who are experienced builders would never advise you not to build, you have everything that you need, and everything we needed, to guarantee a reasonable chance of success.  But our comments are not for craftsmen with engineering backgrounds and a half century of experience in everything including lutherie.  Our warnings are for those who are not close to your level of skill and experience, your level of 'professionalism'.

 

To them I still say - if you are more into the experience than anything else, jump right in.  But if you want a fine instrument and you are NOT close to the level of experience and education of say, Tony, then it is probably a much more reasonable idea to buy than to build.  But if the main thing that attracts you is the idea of mastering this instrument mechanically as well as musically, and you understand that it will end up expensive (the cost is truly inversely proportional to your skill and resources), then by all means go ahead, it is rewarding and cool.

 

Just don't expect to try to find the cheap way to the same instrument others pay thousands for and have it work out for you, sure, people win Publisher's Clearing House every year, but it isn't something that happens to everybody, not even everybody who wants it and spends a lot of time trying.

 

Chris

[Tony Vincent]

On 26/10/2011 6:27 p.m., Kazimierz Verkmastare wrote:

Tony

 

You kind of make my point.

 

     Hi Chris,
    I absolutely agree with all you have said! :0)

But..a point that I wanted to make was that anyone who has two hands, a few tools and enough sense not to argue with his wife can build a HG....or a HGSO. Even though the quality of the outcome might vary from 'not bad' to 'Is there any more firewood'

My point is that anyone with the good sense(?) to want a HG should have the good sense to realise their limitations and graduate their expectations accordingly. I doubt the prospective builder who started this thread, and I apologise to him for not remembering his name, expects to end up with an instrument that in any way will compare to that of the pros. on this list. I am in awe at the dedication and skill that goes into their instruments and certainly wouldn't expect to emulate their instruments. But I still have every first instrument that I make and with all their faults (not enough room to list them) I still prefer to play them rather than their (in some cases infinitely) better successors......good excuse for the quality of the playing!

I'm just kinda scared that he is put off banging out an instrument that with all its faults he would be proud to own and play. Not to mention the pleasure that's to be got from someone looking at his bastard child with awe and saying "How did you DO that" Always a bonus to me!


What a great thread!

Regards, TonyNZ

[Steven Tucker]

So this discussion seems to have boiled down to two camps, those who say it's possible to make a good instrument for a low cost by spending enough time on the project, and those who say it's impossible to make any instrument without spending more money than buying a professionally made one.

So those of you who say it'll cost you more to build one than buy one, where are your numbers?  What exactly is it that is going to cost more money?  I'm seriously interested in specifically what you are thinking the money will go towards.  Do you truly believe you can't build a good sounding instrument without spending thousands of dollars on exotic hard woods (and therefore a beginner will ruin more expensive wood than a new instrument will cost.) Or do you believe that only a $600 block plane will make the proper top for a good sounding instrument?

Lets have some specifics, not just a generalized "it'll cost more" statement.

-Steve

On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 10:27 PM, Kazimierz Verkmastare <k...@nogy.net> wrote

 

[snip]. . .

 

It is a project done for enjoyment, and because I am wasting resources as I am building knowledge, it is NOT going to be significantly more economical than if I had commissioned it. ... that it will end up expensive (the cost is truly inversely proportional to your skill and resources),

[Arle Lommel]

I'm not going to argue either position, but rather argue that it depends on your skill and proficiency with tools. *I*, as a moderately competent woodworker who happens to not have access to a fully equipped shop, would end up buying the following just to get started (with my off-the-cuff guess on cost):

1. a jointer (~$600)

2. a planer (~$500)

3. a bandsaw (~$500)

4. a router (~$150)

5. a table saw (~$500)

6. a pile of hand tools (~$1000)

etc…

(7. Almost forgot, a space to put all this in. I'd have to rent some space for a few hundred a month.)

Start adding those up, and even if I'm buying just average-grade tools, we're talking some pretty serious money (at least for me), probably about the cost of a decent instrument before I've even started. ($3250 is the total I get there, and I suspect I'm seriously undercounting here since I've not factored in a lathe or other things I consider essential.)

Now somebody else, more proficient than I am, will look at that list and tell me I don’t need 1-5 (or a lathe) because you can do it without them. That's certainly true, if by “you” they mean somebody other than me, somebody with the skill and knowledge to use those tools. I know professional makers of hurdy-gurdies who use primarily hand tools (one, in particular, whom I know seems to have a hand drill—used in truing wheels—a drill press, and not much else besides planes and hand saws). So you can do it, if you have the skills to work with a particular tool set. But that's not me, so high cost in tools is the only model that would work for me.

If you already have the tools (power or hand), however, and are proficient in their use, then your cost will be your time (which certainly has a value) and in your materials. Maybe you'll be really good and get everything right the first time, but if you're like me, you'll end up making three or four of everything and eat up a lot of wood and time before you get to what you want. So that's a lot of time and money right there.

I think this seeming conflict of opinion comes because we are all in different situations. We have different goals for what we want. We have different amounts of time. We place different value on money. Some of us greatly value making things ourselves and others do not. So what seems a daunting prospect for one will be really quite a low bar for another.

My guess is that if you want to produce a top-grade instrument, and that is your primary goal, the naysayers are probably right: you'll spend more to do it than you'd spend to buy one. On the other hand, if your primary goal is the satisfaction of making something yourself and you have the time and the ability, you can come out under cost on each instrument, but you'll probably have to make four or five before you end up with a really good instrument. (There are exceptions, of course: some of you are probably so talented you could do it on your first try, but I've also seen a number of first gurdies, and I have yet to see one in person that wasn't plagued with problems.)

So if there is this dichotomy of opinion, I think it because we all view the equation from our own inputs and there is no single correct answer.

-Arle

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[Barbara Currier]

Okay, folks, everybody has gotten off onto the "can you build it" track. Yep, you can build one, and if you are playing it yourself and tweaking your life away (or rebuilding and tweaking, like us), go for it. It can be a rewarding and educational endeavor. My problem with the original post is this fellow, no matter how skilled at woodworking and well-intentioned and loaded with personal integrity he may be, intends to sell his gurdy for a profit when he's done. He does not play, has stated no intention to learn, has not indicated he knows anyone who knows anything about playing the hurdy gurdy to play his creation and advise improvement, just intrigued with building one.

Yes, if you have good woodworking skills, can find good plans and follow them to the letter, you can build a good looking instrument, which will probably sell on ebay. But, will it sound good and perform well? Or, without intending to, will you have taken money from someone who thinks they are getting a bargain and a playable instrument and failed that customer (who being new at the instrument himself may not know it for quite some time)? How many on this list have bought instruments that turned out to need a lot more money and work to make them playable, even had to have them rebuilt or did you give up dream of playing (probably more people not on this list gave up)? How many would have been better off saving their initial investment, waiting and adding to it, to get an entry level professionally built item instead of someone else's woodworking experiment? It stops being all about you and your skill, tools and investment when your full intent goes beyond "gee, I want to try to build one" and goes on to "I need to sell it for a profit." You can build a playable guitar if you are good at following plans and directions, but a one-off hurdy gurdy fit to be sold to an aspiring player?

I've got a problem with that.

Oh, and by the way, when considering the cost of materials and trying to keep that under $500, don't forget strings (decent strings, essential to sounding good), or is gut string making from scratch in the plan, too?

All the Best to all concerned,
Barbara

--

[Kazimierz Verkmastare]

Alden, I hope you don't mind me using you for an example.

 

Steve, will you agree with this statement - "If what you want is an Olympic Chinook, then you shouldn't expect, unless you are Cali and Alden, to be able to build one for less than they do.  They have streamlined production and amortized costs, and probably can't lower costs (materials + labor + tools) further."

 

Now if you think you can create significant savings, you have to start with a belief that the margin in HG building even for a big name is large, and I can tell you it is not.  Sure, you will save the cost of keeping a storefront open, the electricity, the advertising, and such.  But if you are working in your own home, you are paying for the space you are occupying anyway.  Electricity, rent or mortgage, insurance, taxes.  But the margin for a gurdy is not 50%, probably not 25% or 30%.  So say you want a Chinook, if you are as skilled and knowledgable as the Hackmans, you can build yourself one for probably $1700 or $1800, real cost. (Don't remove labor cost from the equation - your time is worth it).  If you aren't as skilled, you will spend twice or more in labor, and likely more in parts than they do (because they source materials as a business and have had years to find the most cost-effective suppliers).  Likely the cost of all materials that go into a chinook will be about $900 (this is prepared parts, not raw materials.  You can skew your numbers by taking everything back to the most basic state - brass and steel and delrin chunks not turned into bearings and supports and shafts, and the like, but that is again foolish, I will find a way to get the basic materials cost of a Weishcelbaumer down to $100 in raw, raw materials, but then you need the tools and the time to turn the materials into usable gurdy parts, and you don't do that with a handful of garage tools and beginner level skill).

 

When a person goes into production, they source materials and resources at costs most of us can't match.  So we will pay more for our toy in materials than they will.  And because they are experienced, they have the minimum labor time possible - you will not match that first time out.  And unless your time is worth nothing, you have to include what your time is worth in what you will spend.  So go out and spend the thousands of hours getting the experience.  And make sure not to charge those hours to the account.

 

So when Augusto remarked that you have to be doing it for the fun of it, that is the only way to remove labor costs.  If you are building just to save money, you can, but time is more valuable.

 

And no, it doesn't have to be exotic woods.  But if what you want is what you have heard, the Weischelbaumer or the old Pajot or the Eaton, then you get that by using the materials they used the way they used them.  But lets start cutting money corners and using locally sourced wood.  Do you know enough about how to choose some spruce boards from the lumberyard to resaw a soundboard out of?  Or will you just use whatever and accept the results. If you know enough to really do a fine job digging a good soundboard out of a hunk of wood, then you are already out of thos conversation - you have skills already that set you up for success.

 

Tools?  You don't need tools.  A pocketknife, a piece of broken window glass, a hacksaw blade nailed to a bent willow twig, a carpenter's pencil and a leather punch, that's all you need, right?  No.  You need tools to give you precision cuts, precision circles, precision press fits.  And you don't have to buy new and expensive, you can haunt the garage and estate sales, Craigslist, Ebay and the like, and outfit your shop with a reasonable collection of tools for a moderate sum.  But here again you are trading time in setting up and repairing and refreshing these tools for money, and often, unless you are a professional tool refab technician, you end up spending total more than a new tool would cost, or using a tool that gives marginal results (and a gurdy isn't happy with marginal anything).

 

So I am saying that if you start from scratch, there is no way that the total cost will be less than that of the professional.  If you don't count the time and ancillary cost you can fool yourself into thinking that you have found a really good deal.  But the cost is inversely proportional to your skill and setup status.  Those who have to come here and tell us they are new to building, they are depressed at the cost of professional instruments and they want to build a good one for themselves cheap - "How do I do that?" - are not often going to succeed with those parameters.  They might succeed in getting a cheap instrument that barely plays first time out, or a good instrument that ended up costing them far beyond their expectations first time out, or they might get hooked and make a great instrument their 4th or 5th project.  But a player who wants a good instrument but can't afford one and has little woodworking skills does not stand a great chance of success in building a great gurdy fast and with only a couple of hundred bucks to throw at the project.  And those are the folks we address here.

 

If you are a more advanced craftsman than that, you didn't come here asking us how to do it, you just started and did it, and often showed off your results afterwards to us.  Kinda like, a, er, builder?  And if you are a builder, you will succeed.  But you didn't ask, now, did you?  Because you didn't need to - you already knew how to succeed.

 

Chris

[cwhill]

Thank you for bringing us back to the whole point of the thread.
Someone who has no knowledge of HGs who wants to buy a kit or make one
from scratch and then sell it for a good profit.
Many of you have pointed out that to make a good HG needs a lot of
experience to tweak the thing into playing correctly (no plan, no matter
how perfect or perfectly made, is ever going to play without those
tweaks that make each individual instrument just that - individual.
The skill of the maker has some magic too - think of a Strad Vs a
Chinese factory built violin.
One needs to ask "what do they know that I don't" when thinking about
woods. There's a reason why certain woods are used otherwise we'd all be
playing plywood instruments (as it's cheap).
I doubt any professional makers would select an expensive wood just
because it's expensive.
Yes, with skill comes the ability to do lots of things but what about
the time?
I'm sure if the professional makers didn't allow for that, their
products would be a lot cheaper. If it's your own time then, like any
DIY project, there's no labour charge so yes, it's going to be cheaper
of course. Several hundred hours of work isn't going to come cheap after
all.
For the original poster - even presuming he's the best joiner in the
world, he's not going to make a profit unless he too adds on his time -
and that's going to make it expensive (so possible profit) but what's
the customer going to say when it doesn't play - purely because the
maker doesn't know how to make it play properly.
For goodness sakes, how long did it take us to learn how to cotton!!!!!

Colin Hill

> <k...@nogy.net <mailto:k...@nogy.net>> wrote

>
> [snip]. . .
>
> It is a project done for enjoyment, and because I am wasting
> resources as I am building knowledge, it is NOT going to be
> significantly more economical than if I had commissioned it.
> ... that it will end up expensive (the cost is truly inversely
> proportional to your skill and resources),
>
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[Ulrich Joosten]

Dear folks,

I do not know what others think about the discussion – but for me I would be grateful if we could stop it. Me personally I can't stand it any longer. So please, have mercy.

Best regards,

Ulrich

 

--

[Kazimierz Verkmastare]

Great post, Barbara.  Especially the 'it stops being all about you when it goes beyond your desire to build into your desire to sell for a profit'.  Probably why I don't sell many instruments - I give them away mostly, because although I am experienced and skilled I don't believe that many of my pieces are more than just intermediate and I don't know how to charge someone to limit their potential.  (I have been told many of my designs for instruments and my execution are world-class, but it is not what I have been told, but what I believe, that drives me).  Thus I will sell Kantele without reservation, because my Kantele sounds as good as I believe it is possible for Kantele to sound, but it makes me neurotic to think about selling a nice gothic harp, as I don't believe my quality is what it needs to be for a customer to buy it - even though I don't know that the nature of the instrument will allow it to get any better)

 

I think it is a matter of understanding.

 

Some folks think that a wheel-fiddle that makes decent musical sound is everything expected of a gurdy.  Some folks have gained the experience to understand that a gurdy is much more than just a wheel-fiddle.  I built a sinphone that is a wheel-fiddle, not a good example of a gurdy, but it is great for showing elementary school kids how one works.  But I would never sell it to anyone who wanted an instrument to play beautiful gurdy music on.  Maybe I would sell it to a pirate, or a medieval tavern wench, or a quasi-Celtic or fake Breton folk player as a cool sound for their atmosphere, but I would never advertise it as being capable of making beautiful gurdy music.  It's tone isn't bad, I accept it as, well, acceptable.

 

But I understand what I have, what I built, and accept it's limitations.  And I am building a much better instrument, and it is costing more in materials, time, research, frustration.  But it will be closer to a professional instrument, both in quality and sound, and in cost.  I have come to learn that professional builders don't have a great margin, and I can't build what they build for any less actual cost than they have.  And this with 15 years of lutherie experience, and tools, and such.

 

I would never cause anyone else the frustration of having to own my instrument and wanting it to sound like Patrick or Giles.  But once I build one that can stand up in comparison, then the only thing will be setting a price - the first good one is always most expensive, especially if you have to factor in replacing it for yourself.

 

Chris

[cwhill]

Well an opinion was asked, most of gave a similar answer with a few who
thought we were wrong. That's why there's a discussion list.
Now, of course, the ideal way to end it is to say, most politely, if you
agree with the majority, accept it find something easier to make money
on. If you disagree, go ahead and make one in the way you think it can
be made but don't forget to write back and give details and. preferably,
a sound clip of the result.
I doubt anyone here would say they know everything and would be really
happy to be proved wrong. The builders could reduce their costs and
provide cheaper instruments (with the bonus of being able to make more
of them so therefore selling more and making money) which would mean us
players could upgrade our instruments at a reasonable cost and
reasonably quickly. Everyone is a winner.
However, to make one cheaply and then sell using other makers prices as
a yardstick is, I believe, unethical. The markup should be the same. If
the $1200 HG retails at around �1500-$2000 and it's a good instrument,
fair enough. If it's going to cost more, then that's sheer profiteering
from the time and skills of others unless it's really as good and
professional as theirs.
I sincerely doubt that any builders here look at each other's prices and
set their prices accordingly.
OK Ulrich, hopefully my final word on it ;)

Colin Hill

On 26/10/2011 15:34, Ulrich Joosten wrote:
> Dear folks,
>

> I do not know what others think about the discussion � but for me I

> would be grateful if we could stop it. Me personally I can't stand it
> any longer. So please, have mercy.
>
> Best regards,
> Ulrich
>

>> <k...@nogy.net <mailto:k...@nogy.net>> wrote>

>>
>> [snip]. . .
>> >
>> >
>> > It is a project done for enjoyment, and because I am wasting
>> > resources as I am building knowledge, it is NOT going to be
>> > significantly more economical than if I had commissioned it. ...
>> > that it will end up expensive (the cost is truly inversely
>> > proportional to your skill and resources),
>
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[Dave Leonard]

"For goodness sakes, how long did it take us to learn how to cotton!!!!!

Colin Hill"

Leaning how to cotton took me longer than anything else. Back in 1998 there wasn't a lot of info out there. All I found was brief explanations about what kind of cotton to use and how important it is. Nothing about how to actually use it! It was a few months later, after getting very frustrated, that someone finally put up a site that at least explained where it goes and more-or-less how it was done. After that it was just a matter of experimentation.

Dave

 

The Hurdy-Gurdy Man,

---

From: cwhill <cwh...@santa-fe.freeserve.co.uk>
To: hurdy...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2011 10:27 AM
Subject: Re: [HG-new] Re: Affordable Hurdy Gurdy Construction

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[timw]

I would like to clarify that I have directed my comments to the
building of a hurdy gurdy for my own use, not to sell. I am the one
who mentioned Graeme McCormacks' Lute-backed gurdy on his Antiquated
Strings site. I mentioned I was building my first hurdy gurdy from his
plans. I offered a link to his plans as a starting point for building
a gurdy 'for your own PERSONAL use', never to resell. Building from
some other persons drawings for profit is wrong on many levels and
very unethical.

I just hope we can have a thread on building your own hurdy gurdy,
period. Costs and reselling are not the point, in my opinion. Share
the knowledge of building for the sake of the craft. I want to build a
hurdy gurdy myself, in my own shop with my own tools, using my own
abilities, or lack thereof. The end result has only to please the
builder, whatever that entails.

It would be wonderful if there were examples of gurdy builds, shop
built tools, molds, peg shapers, etc., Violin-makers share this
knowledge (i.e. Maestronet.com), I think amateur gurdy builders could
do it also.

Tim

[Steven Tucker]

Ulrich, why would want this discussion to stop?  It's getting really interesting.  There is considerable knowledge and talent here on this forum and I think the subject of "Affordable Hurdy Gurdy Construction" is worth delving into.  I guess I'm assuming that someone who is looking into building their own gurdy will search this forum and discover this thread an so it's appropriate to discuss the costs and ramifications of attempting to build one from scratch within a budget.

On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 7:25 AM, Kazimierz Verkmastare <k...@nogy.net> wrote:

Alden, I hope you don't mind me using you for an example.

 

Steve, will you agree with this statement - "If what you want is an Olympic Chinook, then you shouldn't expect, unless you are Cali and Alden, to be able to build one for less than they do.  They have streamlined production and amortized costs, and probably can't lower costs (materials + labor + tools) further."

 

I would actually say that if what you want is an Olympic Chinook then you shouldn't expect to be able to build one at all unless you're Cali and Alden.  Now if you were an experienced luthier and had an actual Olympic Chinook in front of you, and were experienced and proficient at top voicing, then you might expect to be able to make a reasonably good copy, but not for less than they do.

  So say you want a Chinook, if you are as skilled and knowledgable as the Hackmans, you can build yourself one for probably $1700 or $1800, real cost. (Don't remove labor cost from the equation - your time is worth it).

I agree with almost everything you've been saying except the part about counting labor time as real cost.  Now this is true if we're talking about someone who is thinking about going into business of making hurdy gurdies to sell, but if I want to spend my unpaid time on learning about and building a hurdy gurdy, and don't buy premium AAAA luthierie woods, then my total cash outlay for a Chinook-like hurdy gurdy would be around $300 or less -- even accounting for precision bushings and a shaft from McMaster Carr and a AA spruce top from Luthier's Mercantile.

The expensive exotic hardwoods and highly figured woods that luthiers use in their instruments don't have anything to do with the sound quality or stability of the instrument.  ( I could launch into a huge discussion proving this statement, but it's already been hashed out quite thoroughly in many forums and technical papers.) Beautiful wood is an artistic choice.

[...]

Tools?  You don't need tools.  A pocketknife, a piece of broken window glass, a hacksaw blade nailed to a bent willow twig, a carpenter's pencil and a leather punch, that's all you need, right?  No.  

I would contend that all you need is a bow saw with a thin blade and a thick blade, a luthier's knife (made from an old file), a steel scraper, a drill, and possibly a wood carvers gouge.  (Assuming you buy the shaft, bushings, and top wood).

[...] 

[...] But a player who wants a good instrument but can't afford one and has little woodworking skills does not stand a great chance of success in building a great gurdy fast and with only a couple of hundred bucks to throw at the project.  And those are the folks we address here.

 A few years back, at a music camp, I met a very excellent gurdy player who had built his own.  It had a great sound, easily comparable to the $5000 range instruments also at camp.  It was the first instrument he ever built (he was about 24 years old), and he made it using only hand tools and a power drill in his apartment living room.  The body was a converted $10 classical guitar, the shaft and bearings were wood, and the wheel was made from a scrap of Baltic Birch plywood.  It was quite fascinating to watch the "nose in the air" disdain from other gurdy players turn to mortification when they realized that this disreputable looking instrument made their very expensive showpiece sound like a thinly wailing rodent. (their words, not mine, said in good jest I'm sure.)

This kid wasn't a genius, didn't come from a professional woodworking family, had only had the experience of playing on a friends gurdy "a few times".  He told me it took him about two weeks of evenings to put together and the hardest part was cutting the key guides and getting the dog to buzz right.

-S

[Michael McMillan]

I just hope we can have a thread on building your own hurdy gurdy, period. Costs and reselling are not the point, in my opinion. Share the knowledge of building for the sake of the craft.

Thank you, Tim!!

I want to build a hurdy gurdy myself, in my own shop with my own tools, using my own abilities, or lack thereof. The end result has only to please the builder, whatever that entails.

Yes, why should the pros have all the fun?

It would be wonderful if there were examples of gurdy builds...

Then each builder would to not have to totally re-invent the "wheel." We could have the chance of a better outcome with less trial-and-error, not to mention saving time, materials and money. [Oops, we're not supposed to talk about that.]

 

What about a discussion group just for amateur builders, so we don't upset everyone else?

 

--Michael

 

http://harvey-house.info/blog-hg/

 

[Dave Leonard]

Is there a "like" button here? :)

Dave

 

The Hurdy-Gurdy Man,

---

From: Steven Tucker <steven...@gmail.com>
To: hurdy...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2011 4:46 PM

Subject: Re: [HG-new] Re: Affordable Hurdy Gurdy Construction

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[Alden F M Hackmann]

I think this is an interesting discussion, though I am also somewhat irked by it, for reasons which will become apparent. As with all discussions, if it's not of interest to you, there's the "next" button.

There is so much to say, I'm just going to skip to the high points, stopping briefly to thank Arle and Barbara for their posts.

The reason, dear people, that I become annoyed with the discussion is that it starts to stray into saying that all this tooling and hoarded wood and shop buildings and expertise and time that Cali and I have invested in this instrument were unnecessary. After 200 instruments, I am still learning how to build them better. If one can truly achieve the same result with a few weekends twiddling about with an old guitar and some Baltic Birch ply, the implication is that either I've wasted the last 20 years going in the wrong directions, or that I'm a ham-handed numbskull, or that I'm a pretentious snob. I have a certain amount of emotional investment in the instrument, so I'm not very happy with any of these conclusions. Perhaps I'm being too sensitive and reading too much into what is actually being said.

On Wed, 26 Oct 2011, Steven Tucker wrote:

> then my total cash outlay for a Chinook-like hurdy gurdy would be around $300

Is that including the strings? Good gut strings are quite expensive.

> or less -- even accounting for precision bushings and a shaft from McMaster Carr and a AA spruce top from Luthier's Mercantile.

Please let me know what McMaster-Carr part numbers you were looking at. I must have missed that section of the catalog.

>
> I would contend that all you need is a bow saw with a thin blade and a thick blade, a luthier's knife (made from an old file), a steel scraper, a

> drill, and possibly a wood carvers gouge. ￜ(Assuming you buy the shaft, bushings, and top wood).
> [...]ￜ

Let's include a pencil. That being all you need, I suggest that you embark upon your project forthwith. I notice that you don't have a vise, or a sharpening stone, or any measuring devices, or a straight edge, so I await the results of your labors.

Doing my best to remain polite,

Alden

Alden F.M. Hackmann dark...@u.washington.edu

"Beati illi qui in circulum circumeunt, fient enim magnae rotae."

[cwhill]

Nicely said and I agree totally.
I only have one instrument I actually built. It's a trapezoid shaped
mountain dulcimer (I made a staff dulcimer at an evening class). I
decided to build a sound box to fit it on as it was pretty quiet.
It's made of some thin plywood I had lying around, a few bits of pine
1x1 1/2 from another project (boxing a bath in), some panel pins and
lots of PVA wood glue. It didn't fit together too well so I filled in
the spaces with the PVA glue. I played it for 30 years and then, in a
burst of exuberance I bought a new one from EMS ready built and lo and
behold, they fill in the spaces with wood glue as well. :)
The frets are less accurate than on mine and the sound is nowhere as
good as my knock-together one. I also painted the sides and back of mine
with some green paint I had spare.
Looks horrible but still sounds better than the "proper" one and I had a
great deal of fun and satisfaction making it. Even more so when I saw
what I paid good money for.
I doubt I would get anything for it if I sold it (not that I would) but
had a great time making it and that's the key, isn't it?
I too am interested in the ins and outs of building a HG even though
it's something I would/could never do but I love to hear this stuff
because I love the instrument and how it's made fascinates me.

Colin Hill

[Tony Vincent]

On 27/10/2011 9:54 a.m., Michael McMillan wrote:
>
> What about a discussion group just for amateur builders, so we don't
> upset everyone else?
> --Michael
>

Sign me up.

[David Gillett]

I agree! A full-blown forum would be a wonderful thing - I never realized there were so many aspiring builders out there. Maybe a Facebook Group page (if they are still allowed)?

As one of those aspiring builders, I have been inspired by Michael McMillan's blog (great details, and an object lesson in the time and effort required), and Graeme McCormack's plans for a lute-back and am working on converting a $500 Pakistani lute special (**sarcasm**) into a real instrument. I'd love to share my experiences and get inspiration and incentive from other builders.

David

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[Arle Lommel]

It already exists:

http://groups.google.com/group/hurdy-gurdy-builders/

However, there has been little to no action on it, and there was concern that by splitting off into a separate group that valuable discussion would be lost in the main group.

Given the previous experience we had with it, I'm not terribly encouraged, and I mention it only to keep someone from creating yet another group and cluttering up the scene even more.

-Arle

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[Steven Tucker]

Alden, 

I'm sorry I've offended you, please allow me to try to un-offend you.

 I made a brief comment about artistic choices, but I see I should have included a paragraph about a professionally built instrument transcending a simple well playing instrument into a work of art.  No offence was intended or implied.

A professional (or advanced amateur) has the choice to make a superior sounding instrument out of standard grade or even sub-prime wood, or to make a superior sounding instrument out of personally chosen, carefully selected, well seasoned, scarce, and beautiful woods.

Does a beginner builder need to find and purchase a $300 piece of Brazilian Rosewood to make a "pretty good" sounding instrument. No. That'd be a bad idea (and not just because Brazilian is now illegal in the US). Hardware store Alder would be a much better choice for the beginner - assuming they can stand the ugly greenish tint and horrible grain pattern (my opinion, sorry if I've offended Alder lovers out there).

I should also point out that the pros need to use very well seasoned and stable woods, glued up at carefully controlled humidity levels -- their reputations depend on it.  Musicians can be very hard on instruments (playing them all night in the rain at music festivals and such) so a pro must use design and construction techniques and stabilized woods so the instrument won't split apart on a particularly dry or wet day.  This is less of a concern (although certainly possible) for an amateur builder making an instrument for themselves.

I think every musician should attempt to build their own instrument.  Aside from a greater understanding as to how their instrument works it makes professionally hand-made instruments seem much less expensive.

But really, all those expensive tools and jigs -- the bending machines, expensive band saw re-sawing blades, precision thickness sanders, shop lathe, metal lathe, drum sander, belt sanders, molds, forms, layout tools, precision straight-edges, accurate rulers, spectrum analysis software, stroboscopic tuner, planes, gouges, custom chisels, gauged files -- all those tools are mostly about production.  They are used to make it possible to build an instrument to less than a hundredth of an inch tolerance using tricky woods and still be able to price the thing in a range that musicians will actually pay. 

At this point I should launch into a big discussion (rant, perhaps) about the perceptions of musicians verses the reality of musical instrument construction, but I think that'd be quite a bit off topic.

If we could just get the hurdy gurdy popular enough for someone to build a factory for them then this whole discussion would just go away.

-S

p.s.

On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 4:13 PM, Alden F M Hackmann <dark...@u.washington.edu> wrote:

[...]

  Perhaps I'm being too sensitive and reading too much into what is actually being said.

 

My attempts at being succinct often come across as snarky or combative. 

On Wed, 26 Oct 2011, Steven Tucker wrote:

then my total cash outlay for a Chinook-like hurdy gurdy would be around $300

Is that including the strings?  Good gut strings are quite expensive.  

No, I'm pretty sure good gut strings wouldn't qualify as "affordable" construction. I should have said "Chinook-shaped", implying someone could copy the design, but not implying someone could copy the quality.

or less -- even accounting for precision bushings and a shaft from McMaster Carr and a AA spruce top from Luthier's Mercantile.

Please let me know what McMaster-Carr part numbers you were looking at.  I must have missed that section of the catalog.

I realize that's sarcasm, but here you go - I still had the tabs open:

2025K8 - stainless steel shaft with retaining ring groves - $24.42.

 6389K625 -  Nylon sleeve bearing $2.36. (pack of 5)

 

I would contend that all you need is a bow saw with a thin blade and a thick blade, a luthier's knife (made from an old file), a steel scraper, a

drill, and possibly a wood carvers gouge.  (Assuming you buy the shaft, bushings, and top wood).
[...] 

Let's include a pencil.  That being all you need, I suggest that you embark upon your project forthwith.  I notice that you don't have a vise, or a sharpening stone, or any measuring devices, or a straight edge, so I await the results of your labors.

Ok, a sharpening stone and a ruler are must-haves, but what do you need a vice for that can't be done with a clever application of living room furniture? (a joke, meant lightly)

Once I'm done with my brother's challenge of building a $99.00 retail production model ukulele that plays in tune, I'll consider creating a YouTube video on how to build a hurdy gurdy with only hand tools (well, and maybe my band saw).

-S

 

[Steven Tucker]

I think the Musical Instrument Makers Forum has it pretty well wrapped up anyway. . .

-S

[Michael McMillan]

Thanks, Arle. I applied. I thought it was more for the pros. If not, maybe it can be put to good use by some of us giving it a try.

 

Frankly, the main hurdy-gurdy lists usually aren't that relevant to me. I'm not anywhere that I can attend festivals, workshops, and other things that are announced. Most of what is discussed is way beyond where I'll ever get, even when I do have a hurdy-gurdy to play, though I do like "hanging out" on the list with other hurdy-gurdy enthusiasts and trying to learn some basics. I do save answers to simple questions about strings, tuning, straps, etc.

 

So the other group could potentially be more useful to me where I'm at right now, if other people got involved and shared their experiences. Though it would not be my intention to bother professional builders who may be members there with questions and increased message traffic.

 

--Michael

[David Gillett]

Thanks Arle! I didn't know that group existed. Might I suggest that someone moves (or copies) all the emails from this thread to start things off? (I would do it, but I'm off to a weekend workshop with my bowed dulcimer)

David

Sent from my iPad

[David Gillett]

Can you post that link, please?

Sent from my iPad

[Michael McMillan]

1. a jointer (~$600)

2. a planer (~$500)

3. a bandsaw (~$500)

4. a router (~$150)

5. a table saw (~$500)

6. a pile of hand tools (~$1000)

etc…

7. Almost forgot, a space to put all this in.

 Hi Arle--

 

This is exactly why Mel's kit is so great. You don't need a shop full of bulky, expensive power tools, much less need to be experienced in their use. Nor do you need to go on a scavenger hunt for the right woods and other hardware. I don't have any of those tools on your list, except a basic router. The only other power tools I happened to already have are a regular drill, a scroll saw and a Dremel tool.

 

The times I have had to impose on friends for use of a table saw, drill press or band saw were when I was totally deviating from the kit and making my own custom parts, just because I wanted to do something else more decorative, not that there was anything wrong with the ones provided. Something essential that I didn't have was large clamps for gluing the body together, but was able to borrow those, also.

 

I hope I don't make Mel's kit look hard because I am doing a bunch of extra customizing to mine. I even ordered the kit with some things disassembled that usually are already together when you get them. I would be done by now if I just put the stock kit together. Mel is very helpful in making sure your kit is the way you want it. It is a real relief to open the box and see all those complex parts already made. I have no idea how he made them, and I'm glad I don't have to! It would be impossible for me to make a decent hurdy-gurdy from scratch. This way, I have a chance.

 

--Michael

 

http://harvey-house.info/blog-hg/

[Augusto de Ornellas Abreu]

Just go visit Mel and Ann some day, and you'll know how they make all those absurdly complex little parts all by himself! Seriously, Mel's shop is awesome, in the original sense of that word.

--

[Leonard Williams]

       I built my own hurdy gurdy after years of longing to own one without the means of purchase.  I had some experience with woodworking, some good tools (power and hand), and very good plans for an early renaissance model purchased from a professional builder.  Because of the bizarre grain of the wood I had (American elm), I had trouble finding someone willing to surface the wood (a rough plank) to my dimensions;  I had to rough it on a table saw and get final thicknesses with a hand plane and scrapers.  With some patient telephone coaching from the designer of the instrument I was able build a simple (no trompette, single chanter, 3 drone) hurdy gurdy.  Howerever, it was a number of years before I finally got the “finished” instrument set up satisfactorily  (This forum was a great help in the final stages!).
        I am no longer sure of the material costs, but it was far less than a professionally built instrument.  I am proud of the result of my labors, and builcing my gurdy fulfilled a desperate need.  BUT—would I do it again?  I think not—I’d try to save up and buy one from a craftsman/artist who knows what he’s doing.  This is certainly not intended to discourage anyone from trying to build a hurdy gurdy or any instrument on his own—by all means try it if you really want to!  I learned a lot from the experience and do not regret it—just be aware that it requires a good deal of patience.  There is an element to instrument building that is purely mechanical, but every collection of wooden parts is an organic entity which requires its own peculiar tweaking to become a musical instrument.

Regards,
Leonard Williams
           _
         [: :]
        / |  | \
       |  |  |  |
       (_==_)
           !~¿

[timw]

Here is a link to photos of my homemade carving vise and my first
Peghead. I don't know how to post the actual photos in my message,
here is the link, thanks for looking:

https://picasaweb.google.com/117480843905029440333/October292011

[Felicia Dale]

Well said, Leonard. 

Felicia.

[timw]

Description The general subject of the list is hurdy-gurdies: their
music, players, maintenance, recordings, events, construction, and
anything else that seems pertinant. We welcome discussion of all
aspects of the instrument.

This group seems to delight in not supporting construction, but rather
discourage it. I am the obvious newcomer here and this hasn't been a
welcoming group.

You can sigh comfortably, this is my final post. Tim, newcomer and
amateur luthier.

> > found athttp://hurdygurdy.com/mailinglist/index.htm. To reduce  

[Augusto de Ornellas Abreu]

Come on, don't be like that!

NO ONE here discouraged building, we just told the ORIGINAL poster that his perspective of building himself a gurdy for less than a very affordable kit, with enough profit margin to sell it for 1200 was not a realistic goal to have.

People on my side of the discussion made the point (with actual figures to support it) that one should build for the fun and personal satisfaction behind the endeavour, but not to get his hands on a cheap instrument. HG makers do NOT work with a wide enough margin to make it self-evident and certain that anyone with some tools and some woodworking experience would be able to - in his first attempt - make himself an actual working gurdy (and not a HGLO) for much less that someone with a fully equipped shop, all jigs and molds already properly made and spare parts already made and fitted (bushings, bearings, tangents, etc).

What there is no place here for is this kind of immaturity that interprets a very good discussion with great points being made on BOTH sides of the argument and twists it immensely, taking it personally and distorting the whole point.

The rules of posting, courtesy, and other list information may be found at http://hurdygurdy.com/mailinglist/index.htm.  To reduce spam, posts from new subscribers are held pending approval by the webmaster.

[Roy Trotter]

Hear! Hear!

[Geoff Turner]

Well said Augusto. We need to hear arguments on both sides of the fence, not just those that are comfortable...
 
Geoff

---

From: augusto....@gmail.com
Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 13:37:34 -0200

Subject: Re: [HG-new] Re: Affordable Hurdy Gurdy Construction

To: hurdy...@googlegroups.com

[Roy Trotter]

My last post may have been a bit terse... sorry. I (perhaps "we") was offended by the crass assumption, that gurdies are overpriced. Was this the one that wanted to build a gurdy in the $200 price range? Then he got bent because we wouldn't tell him how ... Do you reckon that his unwelcomeness had anything to do with his (lack of) manners. Or was it just me, would I have better hospitality to tell him "Your being a sap, I'll tell ya what, how about you want something cheap, how about a paper comb?" Didn't think so.

[Bruno Fournier]

guys, guys, building a HG is difficult, yes, but nothing out of the extraordinary.  Just need a lot of patience and trial and error.  I built a symfonia to begin with, to get myself familiar with the concept, and then built a Hurdy Gurdy.  Complexity is the model you will build, if lute back it will be more complex.  As for the cost, you can easily build for less than 500 $ of materials, not calculating your labor.

regards

Bruno

--

 

Bruno Cognyl-Fournier

 

www.estavel.org

 

[Arle Lommel]

Michael,

Sorry I did not respond sooner. My mail program him your message from me.

Yes, Mel's work is great and kits are a good way to go for those who want to build something themselves but lack all of the resources I mentioned. I think it comes down to the question of motivation and resources still, but a kit provides a middle point for those who want to do it themselves, but realize (like me) that they can't do it all for various reasons. (I'd consider building one, but I suspect my family has other claims on my time for the foreseeable future.)

And I would heartily recommend Mel's products that I have experience with thus far.

-Arle

[cwhill]

Well said.
It's very easy to miss the origin of a thread. This one was (with no
experience or knowledge of the instrument at all) to build a HG cheaply
and sell it for a decent profit.
I think it would be really undesirable to encourage such misguided
thinking - and very unfair to the original poster.
Reading through the mails the general opinion seemed to be that it was
perfectly possible to build a HG from scratch and have good results
provided you had the skill to do so and the knowledge of the instrument
to get it playing properly.
I'd class this question with the more usual one of "where can I get a
cheap HG that plays well" as so many people see cheap guitars and
violins and presume that a HG must be the same.
I think it's very important that people know this to avoid disappointment.
Building something for fun and enjoyment is a lot different to building
one for sale and the standards for a professional would, I think, be
higher as it's a matter of pride as well as commerce.

Colin Hill

> <mailto:cruikshan...@pintndale.com>> wrote:
> > Well said, Leonard.
> >
> > Felicia.
> >
> > On Oct 29, 2011, at 11:16 AM, Leonard Williams wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > > I built my own hurdy gurdy after years of longing to own
> one
> > > without the means of purchase. I had some experience with
> > > woodworking, some good tools (power and hand), and very good plans
> > > for an early renaissance model purchased from a professional
> > > builder. Because of the bizarre grain of the wood I had (American
> > > elm), I had trouble finding someone willing to surface the wood (a
> > > rough plank) to my dimensions; I had to rough it on a table
> saw and
> > > get final thicknesses with a hand plane and scrapers. With some
> > > patient telephone coaching from the designer of the instrument
> I was
> > > able build a simple (no trompette, single chanter, 3 drone) hurdy
> > > gurdy. Howerever, it was a number of years before I finally
> got the

> > > �finished� instrument set up satisfactorily (This forum was a

> great
> > > help in the final stages!).
> > > I am no longer sure of the material costs, but it was far
> > > less than a professionally built instrument. I am proud of the
> > > result of my labors, and builcing my gurdy fulfilled a desperate

> > > need. BUT�would I do it again? I think not�I�d try to save up
> and
> > > buy one from a craftsman/artist who knows what he�s doing.

> This is
> > > certainly not intended to discourage anyone from trying to build a

> > > hurdy gurdy or any instrument on his own�by all means try it if

> you
> > > really want to! I learned a lot from the experience and do not

> > > regret it�just be aware that it requires a good deal of patience.

> > > There is an element to instrument building that is purely
> > > mechanical, but every collection of wooden parts is an organic
> > > entity which requires its own peculiar tweaking to become a
> musical
> > > instrument.
> >
> > > Regards,
> > > Leonard Williams
> > > _
> > > [: :]
> > > / | | \
> > > | | | |
> > > (_==_)

> > > !~�

> >
> > > On 10/26/11 4:46 PM, "Steven Tucker" <steven.tuc...@gmail.com

> hurdy...@googlegroups.com <mailto:hurdy...@googlegroups.com>

> > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
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[Simon Wascher]

Hello,

Am 31.10.2011 um 15:48 schrieb timw:
> This group seems to delight in not supporting construction, but rather
> discourage it. I am the obvious newcomer here and this hasn't been a
> welcoming group.

sorry, but not all truth is cofortable or encouraging. But it is important to accept the truth:
"We can only live our dreams when we decide to wake up" (Josephine Baker)

Simon

[Roy Trotter]

Well, that's a little bit beside the point. I built my first for less than that probably less than $100. Yes it was mostly scrap wood and metal. And it took every spare minute I had for at least 6 months, the last  three of which  entailed a great deal of hoping that it sounded OK, I mean the Hurdy -Gurdy. I had never heard one (well, It turns out I had, but I just thought it was very smooth-sounding bagpipes). So I went to OTW for help on the final stages and realized that I had undershot by a huge margin. I went ahead and bought a nice one for quite a bit less than I've seen non-domestic guitars sell for. Then I tried to shore up my original. That didn't work either. Now I'm too beat up, to try again.

That's not the point either; here's the point. Where does one get off trying to get all of us to essentially give him a free-to-cheap instrument, "but it's got to be nice or it's not worth my while". And then he has the %^&#$ to whine about our treatment of him. !!!! Good riddance.

I guess I ought to clear out before I say what I REALLY mean (I don't think Alden and Kali allow that sort of language here anyway).  I do miss the lot of you.

Roy T. (as opposed to R.T. and several others)

[Alden F M Hackmann]

As I see it, most of us agree on the following:
1) Hurdy-gurdies built by professionals are expensive.
2) An amateur can build a hurdy-gurdy from a kit or plans.
3) To do so, the amateur needs to invest in some tools and (if building from plans) some supplies.
4) The amateur also needs to invest a substantial amount of time in the building effort.
5) The amateur should not reasonably expect to create a professional-quality instrument on the first try.

With all of that said, I am very interested in what can be done without all the big tools, basically starting with nothing. There's a lot of room here for discussion, sharing our experiences.

I propose the following thought-experiment: let's choose a set of plans that's available to everyone, and discuss the building process step by step, tool by tool, piece by piece, to build the instrument as shown in the plans. Consider how we would approach each problem, what tool(s) we would need to get to do so, and keep a running list of the (virtual) costs. If something in the plans is unworkable (such as the Varquin's bearing system) we can discuss what to do instead.

I would suggest Graeme McCormack's "Jiri", but the plans are for a modified lute, not an instrument built from scratch. I don't know of any full plans available free on the web - if you do, this is the time to speak up. ;-)

Alden F.M. Hackmann dark...@u.washington.edu

"Beati illi qui in circulum circumeunt, fient enim magnae rotae."

[timw]

I am the new member Tim, and you guys are mistaking me for the
original poster of this topic. I am NOT the one that wants a free
gurdy. I am making Graeme McCormacks Jiri from scratch and hope to
share my experience and photos with you guys. It is made from a
modified lute, but Graeme's plan shows measurements for making the
mold to build your own luteback version. As a prospective new member
of this group I surely didn't feel welcome and the rude comments
directed at me were, I believe, because I was mistaken as someone
asking for something for nothing. Nothing could be further from the
truth.

I want to share my experience building Graeme's Jiri from scratch and
learn from the experienced builders here. My posts have all been about
contributing to this group about building a gurdy - not arguing about
why I can't. If it takes several attempts, so much the better.

If I am typecast as the bad guy, please reread this thread. I am just
looking for a forum that encourages the exchange of ideas on building
a gurdy. I did not and would never whine about the cost of kits or
whatever, I just want to build one. I have built most of the luthier
tools I need to build my violin, but this danged hurdy gurdy bug has
bitten me bad and I'm going to build my first and hope to share my
experience with a group like this.

Sincerely, Tim. Beginning Luthier

[Kazimierz Verkmastare]

Seems you are about to embark on this experiment with the right attitude and expectations.  You will not find many builders here, and those that have built will often tell you they don't know enough except maybe about their very own instrument to make suggestions or give advice, and the professional builders here can't be faulted for keeping their hard-won knowledge, trade secrets, and experience mostly to themselves (although all those I have contacted personally with specific questions have answered willingly - just not making their own possession of knowledge and skill public domain).

I can tell you about the time, the frustration, and the end result of my experiences so far, but I am loathe to try to help you build your gurdy, I simply am not qualified to teach, to comment on dimensions or design from anyone else.  I can tell you how I handled things in my own design, how I didn't end up with a full-featured gurdy, how I am modifying the design so that the current project will be a full featured gurdy.

 

This list is mainly populated by players, the most extensive technical information here will be on strings, adjustments, tunings, microphones, music issues - the gurdy is not an instrument that a majority of dedicated players build (or even a significant minority, for that matter).  It really isn't set up as a support group for craftsmen, though you will find a few here, and so often it doesn't feel welcoming and enthusiastic for amateur builders - mostly because so many folks here have no real interest in the issues of building from start.  

 

But we all like seeing the toys, all like hearing them.  Most folks here would rather focus on tuning, adjusting, learning, and playing issues, and from my experience when the list becomes more active with building issues and stuff, it isn't as interesting to a majority of the list.

 

I will say, though, I have gone back through the archives, and I don't think I have seen a thread this active in a long, long time.  Maybe that counts for something...

 

Chris

[Bruce Nally]

Hi All

I think a good free plan for a beginner with just a few tools would also be on the Graeme McCormack's web site "antiquated strings".  and that would be "The Sinfonye" I built a few from his very detailed plans and they are very nice and I find with good volume.  Early Hurdy Gurdies were built with handtools and the help of other craftsman like a blacksmith so I think it still could be done the same way.  I do think Michael Mcmillan on his blog "a huyrdy Gurdy Odyssey" is buiding a very beautiful kit with very few tools and borrowing tools from friends. you learn to make do.  I have a very well equipped shop but the last instrument I constructed is a Nyckelharpa  it is like a very detailed Hurdy Gurdy that is played with a bow. and they are largely built in Sweden with only a carvers knife. 

[Augusto de Ornellas Abreu]

Michael, though, is using a kit by Mel Dorries (with some modifications), so a great deal of what is really difficult to make yourself is already done for him by Mel (specially turning the shaft, custom making things like bearings, bushings, tangents, trueing the wheel and fitting the whole thing together), not to mention bending the sides, fitting the curfing to glue the soundboard (that has to be cut exactly to shape, not an easy thing to do (right, David?)), etc.

I love his blog and he is doing an amazing job. But let us not forget he is doing it from a kit, not from scratch. He doesn't need some specialized tools like a wood and metal lathe because the parts that DO need them are already made for him.

[timw]

I think Alden's proposal for a construction topic rocks!!!

I would like to share photos and ideas and shopnotes on an amateur
build. I have made several luthier tools and would encourage others
that it is possible and can save a beginning luthier money (you still
pay, but in time and sweat equity). Sharpening tools is one of the
most basic skills you need to learn for good results in carving a
peghead (or any form of woodworking, for that matter). There are so
many sharpening methods out there, that sharpening would be a good
topic for an amateur construction topic.

I am constructing my wooden mold, or form, for gluing up the body of
my first lutebacked gurdy, using Graeme McCormack's jiri plans. I have
his plan and believe it has all the info on it needed to build the
entire gurdy from scratch. I would also recommend making permanent
full-sized templates of each part to use on future builds.

Alden's approach to a construction topic sounds good to me. Remember
the saying growing up, there is safety in numbers? Home shop builders
would learn alot from each other, and avoid pitfalls and mistakes by
sharing each builder's experience and frustrations.

A construction topic would benefit all of us. Those that are
constructing a gurdy would have an area on the forum to exchange
information. Those that are bothered, for whatever reason, discussing
building, could just ignore the construction thread. Builders that
have the patience, skill and time will have an instrument of their
own. Builders that find they cannot make their own instrument would
still learn alot, but would be more likely to purchase a finished
instrument from a professional luthier.

My vote would be for using Graeme McCormacks Jiri, but I am willing to
contribute in a construction thread building any gurdy the host of
this forum would decide on. This is a wonderful opportunity Alden is
proposing. If you have any interest at all in allowing a construction
topic, please let him know.

Sincerely, Tim

On Oct 31, 5:45 pm, Alden F M Hackmann <darks...@u.washington.edu>
wrote:

> Alden F.M. Hackmann                        darks...@u.washington.edu

[timw]

Barbara

Thank you for the nice comments and encouragement to stay with the
group. I accidently deleted the email so must thank you, publicly, on
this forum. Your antique gurdy and new commission sound fabulous! I
can appreciate the wealth of knowledge this group has and know, if I
keep my ears open, I will learn alot. Take care, Tim

[Kazimierz Verkmastare]

I don't think we should be focusing on a restricted instrument for a beginner with a few hand tools, I think we should decide on a reasonable instrument capable of playing a modest selection from the repertoire of world Gurdy music.  Not the finest French dance pieces, not the most epic Hungarian tunes, not the most difficult Spanish/Galacian music, but a decent sampling of the more intermediate pieces of each style.

 

I suggest this because one of the criteria most people have used in arguing against building an instrument is that after all the work you don't want to be significantly limited by your instrument when you go to learn to play, so you have to build something a bit more featured than some jazzed-up Havelena $20 Hurdy-Gurdy if you want to have something to really play and learn on in the end.

 

Most craftsmen can build well a simple example with limited features of a thing, and be quite pleased with their work, but that doesn't mean it would appeal as more than a novelty to the universal audience base of the object in question.  But what we want to show is that it is possible to build a gurdy that would be useful for a dedicated player, not just that we can build something we would love as our own creation.

 

You don't need 4 chanters, 4 mouche, 3 trompette and sympathetic strings, but 2 chanters, 2 drones and a trompette doesn't seem like an unreasonable setup to allow you to play a good portion of most world Gurdy literature without too much limitation.  And that basic configuration, well set up, would honestly appeal pretty much universally to the majority of gurdy hopefuls and players .

 

It also is probably the basic setup you would have to know and have built to consider yourself a successful generic Gurdy builder.  It would teach you the art of setting up a Gurdy, the understanding of design elements, and would present every skill and tool challenge that a more complicated gurdy would present including multi-string bridges, trompette bridges, tyrant peg placement, among others.  And once you had that understanding, you could then build each more or less complicated instrument from diffferent regions and traditions should you want one.

 

If we are going to prove that building a Gurdy is possible, I suggest we set our standard so that the end product is a viable, useful and versatile instrument.  I don't know of any plans for such a critter available for free.  But available or not, I think it would not be as productive to prove we can build HGLOs rather than useful gurdies.

 

Chris

[Roger Muma]

Hello to you all.

I've been lurking for a couple of years now. I believe this may be my first post. I've been interested in the idea of the Hurdy Gurdy for a number of years but didn't take the idea seriously until I heard Ben Grossman play at the Goderich Celtic Festival a few years back. Your thread has got me thinking about trying to make one again. I started on a symphony from some plans (?) but decided early on that the bridge and wheel arrangement were not conducive to making a good sound. So as with many of my tangents it got put aside. We are planing on attending a house concert in Guelph this coming Saturday featuring Harp and Gurdy (Sharlene Wallace and Ben Grossman) -- that also started me thinking again about making a gurdy.  As a disclaimer I must confess that I have been making Lever/Folk Harps for the past 30 years or so so I'm coming at it with a workshop out back and some knowledge and expectation about what makes a good musical instrument. Still the mechanical nature of the beast is what gives me challenge. I'm all for the good general purpose instrument that Chris suggested. As for plans I don't know of any free ones. The lute back one that seems to be available doesn't have to be a lute back one dose it? How about a trapezoid shaped body for simplicity of body construction.

At the very least I will continue to follow your threads.

Regards,

Roger Muma

London Ontario Canada 

www.mumaharps.com 

[Michael McMillan]

> He doesn't need some specialized tools like a wood and metal lathe because the parts that DO need them are already made for him.

 

And the difficult-to-make-yourself parts are in most cases the most critical parts to having a decent-sounding instrument when you're done. I'm very happy to leave some things to the pros! You can build a very nice hot-rod without making the engine yourself. Some might like the challenge of making *everything.* I don't have the facilities or expertise -- or desire -- to do that. Even if I did not start with a kit, I'd still rely on some ready-made parts, like Mel has.

 

I agree with Bruce that a sinfonye would be one of the best options for a first-time scratch-builder. Simple shape.

 

--Michael

[Roy Trotter]

On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 8:56 PM, timw <kf6...@surewest.net> wrote:

 you guys are mistaking me for the

original poster of this topic. ...rude comments

directed at me were, I believe, because I was mistaken as someone
asking for something for nothing. Nothing could be further from the
truth.

No. I was reacting to whatsisnames rudeness. Some members react un-welcoming-ly to lutherie topics. While always point out to our dear readers that they are certainly encourage to zone out while we discuss something important, some will complain about that. There are many that would like to make the list completely useless. We could be sharing tunes (for example), but the .abc format got about 7 minutes (metaphorically speaking, of course).

So. You are welcome, whether you feel like it or not. Please be aware that just because the shoe fits, you may wear it, but you needn't feel like you have to... Anyway, welcome to the HG list and "make ya sef at home.

I want to share my experience building Graeme's Jiri from scratch ...

 

Oh yes, please do

and
learn from the experienced builders here.

 

Good luck with that. 

My posts have all been about
contributing to this group about building a gurdy - not arguing about
why I can't. If it takes several attempts, so much the better.

If I am typecast as the bad guy, ...

 

No, I think that was somebody else....

  ,,,, this danged hurdy gurdy bug has

bitten me bad and I'm going to build my first and hope to share my
experience with a group like this.

That's what "gurdymania" is about. As mentioned, I had never seen nor heard one when I built mine. I found it in a book and just had to know ...  So I built one, with help from some "members", although there wasn't a list yet when that started. At the time, that's all that mattered, so I took the name ... So, yeah, I know the bug.

And once again, to everyone else; If you're not interested in luthierie or actual music, feel free to skip over ...
and Tim, we do encourage you to place a caveat at the beginning of your messages, just to clear out the 'lightweights". We never had a system for people that want to discuss actual boring or trivial topics (i.e. non-lutherie, & non-actual HG music performance). (Too bad, folks, This is the HG list, not the ET list. Didn't the lack of a trumpet sound byte clue you in?)

Love and Kisses to all.

Roy T (the HG troll)


Look forward to hearing from you.

On Oct 17, 5:40 pm, maesoph <aesoph_fam...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Dear All:
>
> Per your advice, I have contacted Hurdy Gurdy Crafters and am quite
> pleased with the responses from Mel and Ann there.  However, I don't
> think I can tackle a Hurdy Gurdy from scratch and can't really afford
> the kit.  Is there any middle ground out there somewhere?  I need to
> make an HG that ultimately can be sold, so quality has to be there,
> but I can't shell out $900 for a complete kit and only sell the HG for
> $1200 or so (just guessing, but it's unlikely I would get more unless
> I was a Pro at this).  Any chance of getting material cost down to
> $500 or less??????  Any ideas would be appreciated - maybe I should
> take this straight to Mel and Ann though???
>
> Mike

[timw]

Thanks Roy!

"Gurdymania", that is a good description...no known cure. Thanks for
the welcome, Roy t. Sincerely, Tim

[Roy Trotter]

Finally, something interesting !!!

[Melvin Dorries]

Hi Roger,

 

I am really interested in the concert but will not be able to attend.

Will this concert be available in some recorded format (DVD perhaps) and if so how do I get a copy?

 

Thanks

Mel

[Steven Tucker]

Alden, thanks for starting this thread.  I have several personal interests in the gurdy that might go hand in hand with the discussion of how to actually build one: 

 e.g. - What makes a gurdy "full featured".  I was thinking one chanter, one or two drones, and a "chien" for a beginner's instrument.  Granted, it'd sound much more like a true gurdy with a second drone as a "mouche", but is it necessary?  I would value everyone's opinions.  Chris's proposal of two chanters also seems reasonable (not much more construction than for one), but is there a benefit other than getting the 'chorus' sound?

And now that I re-read my question I guess it could be summed up as is a "beginner's" instrument with one drone, one chanter, and maybe a 'chien' worth building?

As for plans, it's hard enough to find good acoustic guitar plans for free on the web, much less something as obscure as the gurdy.  The Guild of American Luthiers has a full-scale plan available for $30, but I really can't recommend it for a beginning builder as the author leaves off many construction details he assumes an experienced luthier would know.

It's a bit ambitious, but perhaps our Thought Experiment could produce a set of plans for a well designed, fairly simple, acceptable sounding, affordably built, hurdy gurdy.  I have the resources available to produce the plans (I use Autodesk Inventor) and I believe there's a way to share files?   This way we could discuss the various features present in the plans that are available and accumulate them into a set of working plans.

-Steve

On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 5:45 PM, Alden F M Hackmann <dark...@u.washington.edu> wrote:

[...]

With all of that said, I am very interested in what can be done without all the big tools, basically starting with nothing.  There's a lot of room here for discussion, sharing our experiences.

[...]

[dcmea...@gmail.com]

As it happens, Steven, the Hackman's "minstrel" model is three stringed; one chanter, a trompette and one drone. Mine doesn't have a lot of volume compared to other gurdies, but the trompette and chanter are more than enough for it to sound like a gurdy.

---

From: Steven Tucker <steven...@gmail.com>

Sender: hurdy...@googlegroups.com

Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 12:47:45 -0700

To: <hurdy...@googlegroups.com>

ReplyTo: hurdy...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: [HG-new] Proposal on Hurdy Gurdy Construction topic

--

[Steven Tucker]

Excellent, that seems to answer several questions.  I surmise the extra chanter strings, aside from tuning the tangents slightly off each other to get a "chorus" or vibrato effect, also serves to increase the volume of the melody strings in relation to the drones?

That would seem to suggest that our hypothetical model should have two drones, and two chanters for the most flexibility, but that will add some complexity to the build as the tangents will have to be carefully adjusted laterally to apply equal pressure on both strings.

-S

[cwhill]

As someone who had some minor joinery skills in his youth but yesterday
managed to pull several muscles carving a pumpkin head say that I'm
really looking forward to reading about this project.
I'll never make one (nor take part in this) but I'll find it fascinating
to read.
I would suggest that a chien be included though purely for the reason
that it's something specific to a HG (as opposed to a symphonia) if we
discount the fact that a Tekero has something similar and would be a
good skill to have to make them.

Colin Hill

On 01/11/2011 23:55, Steven Tucker wrote:
> Excellent, that seems to answer several questions. I surmise the extra
> chanter strings, aside from tuning the tangents slightly off each other
> to get a "chorus" or vibrato effect, also serves to increase the volume
> of the melody strings in relation to the drones?
>
> That would seem to suggest that our hypothetical model should have two
> drones, and two chanters for the most flexibility, but that will add
> some complexity to the build as the tangents will have to be carefully
> adjusted laterally to apply equal pressure on both strings.
>
> -S
>
> On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 2:51 PM, <dcmea...@gmail.com

> <mailto:dcmea...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> __ As it happens, Steven, the Hackman's "minstrel" model is three

> stringed; one chanter, a trompette and one drone. Mine doesn't have
> a lot of volume compared to other gurdies, but the trompette and
> chanter are more than enough for it to sound like a gurdy.

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> *

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[Norm Sohl]

Awesome idea, Alden!

Since there don’t appear to be any good public / free plans to start with, perhaps it would be interesting to start a project with a discussion of some of the simpler body types such as the box shaped symphonie/organistrum which seems particularly well suited for amateur construction.  I started with an instrument of this sort from Bernard Ellis (inspired by the instrument Ben Bagby played in Sequentia), and found it both playable and simple.

I’m not suggesting a historical model, but something more modern and generalized - Perhaps we could come up with sort of a Symphonie “1000 year anniversary edition”!

My second thought is a bit more radical, but I have to mention it.  I’ve been working with laser cut birch ply (I have a makerbot 3D printer in the shop), and I love the material, and the “Maker” aesthetic that goes with it. I keep thinking about (hallucinating?) an open-source symphonie design with a laser cut birch ply body and soundboard, finger jointed, assembled with hex screws (so it could be taken apart and re-worked).  Most cities have places to cut the parts inexpensively (there are a couple maker associations in my neighborhood in Seattle for example, and parts can also  be sourced over the net).  Critical components such as the keys might be made from laser cut UHMW.  Perhaps even a laser cut MDF wheel?

The resulting instrument would not win a traditional beauty contest, but I suspect that it could make an excellent chassis for an inexpensive instrument, and still be quite playable.  All speculation, at the moment of course.

What do YOU think?

--Norm

[Scott Gayman]

There is a book set that has a full set of plans, full descriptions of bridge placement, wood use and grain direction, etc. The drawback is that it is in French. However, I have found that it is fairly easy to interpret. The book set is called La Vielle a Roue by Michael Pignol and is about $75. Full sized plans are included.

http://www.michelpignol.com/
There is a free website relating to the book at http://vielleroue.free.fr/

Scott

Bruce Nally &lt;bln...@gmail.com&gt; wrote:

Hi All

I think a good free plan for a beginner with just a few tools would also be on the Graeme McCormack's web site "antiquated strings".  and that would be "The Sinfonye" I built a few from his very detailed plans and they are very nice and I find with good volume.  Early Hurdy Gurdies were built with handtools and the help of other craftsman like a blacksmith so I think it still could be done the same way.  I do think Michael Mcmillan on his blog "a huyrdy Gurdy Odyssey" is buiding a very beautiful kit with very few tools and borrowing tools from friends. you learn to make do.  I have a very well equipped shop but the last instrument I constructed is a Nyckelharpa  it is like a very detailed Hurdy Gurdy that is played with a bow. and they are largely built in Sweden with only a carvers knife. 

 

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[Augusto de Ornellas Abreu]

Pignol's books are amazing

I got to peruse them while staying at the Dorries' and they are fascinating.

If I ever wanted to build myself a gurdy, I would use Pignol's absurdly detailed plans, do doubt about that.

[Augusto de Ornellas Abreu]

Here it is - http://vielleroue.free.fr/

[Geoff Turner]

Steve,
 
Not sure where you get the idea of slightly de-tuning the chanters to get a vibrato effect. All the hurdy-gurdy players I know spend time tuning the tangents so that there is no vibrato. \Although the hurdy-gurdy has a reputation of being played slightly out of tune, this should not be your ideal. 2 chanters is mostly for volume, and to get an octave effect on the D/G tuning. Multiple drones are for changing octave or playing in a different key.
 
One of the most important aspects of making the keys is in making the two rows of tangents contact the string at precisely the same moment. This can be achieved by trimming wooden tangents, or making the fully adjustable metal ones.
 
Most players would think that 'fully-functional' means following the French norm of 2 chanterelles, octave tuned for a D/G tuning or unison tuned for a G/C, with a petit bourdon, gros bourdon, mouche and trompette, and therefore 6 strings.

Geoff 
 

---

Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 16:55:15 -0700

Subject: Re: [HG-new] Proposal on Hurdy Gurdy Construction topic

From: steven...@gmail.com
To: hurdy...@googlegroups.com

[Augusto de Ornellas Abreu]

Geoff

during a workshop with Dominique Forges during a festival in Quebec roughly two months ago, he strongly advised against unison tuning in G/C, saying that the correct way was to use octave Gs as well, similarly to what people do with D/G gurdies.

He was quite adamant about that, saying that tuning in unison Gs, even with the same string, by the same maker, etc, would always lead to imperfect tuning and a poor sound altogether.

I do have octave Gs on my gurdy and it sounds beautiful, as some friends here may attest from meeting my gurdy in person...

Augusto

[Geoff Turner]

Augusto,
 
Not sure what he means by 'correct'. He obviously has a strong opinion about this, but I don't think that any particular tuning is any more correct than any other.
 
What I quoted were the 'normal' or 'traditional' tunings based on what is used as standard for French dance music. Anything else is entirely valid and up to the player, as this instrument does not come under the same orchestral constraints as other instruments, e.g. violins, except perhaps when playing music scored in a particular way, e.g Corelli etc.
 
I think to state that unison G can only ever lead to poor tuning would insult some of the other great players, and I am unsure as to how having 2 G strings in different octaves would alleviate this problem.
 
(I have thought about trying octave G, so I do not dismiss it, I just don't think his argument is necssarily sound)

Geoff  

---

From: augusto....@gmail.com
Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2011 08:04:49 -0200

Subject: Re: [HG-new] Proposal on Hurdy Gurdy Construction topic

To: hurdy...@googlegroups.com

[Augusto de Ornellas Abreu]

I'm just repeating what I understood of what he said.

Maybe someone who was also there at Chants de Vielles and spoke better French than me could jump in here. Is anyone out there?

[Barbara Currier]

When I heard Graham's octave Gs at OTW, that's the sound I wanted for my G/C. His was just lovely.

Barbara

[Ron Geering / Barbara Blair]

Interesting idea!

So what size string would you use for the octave chanter?

Ron Geering

On Nov 2, 2011, at 12:15 PM, Barbara Currier wrote:

When I heard Graham's octave Gs at OTW, that's the sound I wanted for my G/C. His was just lovely.

Barbara

[Kazimierz Verkmastare]

I kind of like the idea of developing the plans for such a creature around the best practices as agreed upon by those who know, specifically keeping in mind the limitations of most beginner luthier's shop setup.  Designing for the beginning builder without being condescending, if that is possible.  If we are to truly gain the kind of understanding of the instrument that makes it really worthwhile to build it, then understanding the design issues is important, and there is no better way to gain this than actually designing one.

 

Besides, a functional plan set can allow those with more experience and resources to do things like changing the body shape and style, changing the head type, changing some aspects of the keybox, while staying faithful to the important dimensions, sizes and angles.

 

So if there are some interested in pursuing this flight of fancy, I suggest that we first decide on a scale length.  In my early research, while I was looking to design my sinphone, I was trying to make things easy on myself by settling on a good 'normal' string length so that I could obtain strings relatively easily.  After getting a dozen answers, the most common I received was 345 mm.

 

I am not suggesting we use that particular number, but I think we need to set one important dimension in order to start designing the rest.  Any other suggestions or comments, from builders or players, on what luck they have had finding strings for certain scale length instruments, and if anyone has experience with multiple instruments with different scale lengths, what seems to be the most conducive to playing different styles of music?

 

Just trying to keep up the momentum up.

 

Chris

[Ulrich Joosten]

Dear list,

didn't someone propose tho discuss this topic on a special luthier list ?

For me this discussion is quite non-interesting. sorry, I do not want to offend anybody. I have my opinion on hurry-gurdies built by amateurs. I did built one some 30 years ago, starting from a building kit which was quite expensive: about 800 German marks at that time. I survived the building somehow. But this instrument sounded horrible, it was extremely hard to handle, very unstable in tuning, too much string pressure, too much this and too less that. In the past 35 years a lot of qualified instrument makers worked hard to develop modern instruments that really SOUND like a "real instrument" - in fact they worked hard to make this instrument no longer suffering from it's bad image since the Praetorius days. I hate the idea of some enthusiastic amateurs proudly presenting their newly tinkered gurdy with a horrible sound… Audiences may get a total wrong impression of what the instrument today is able to sound and play. Pardon my, but my opinion!

I agree to most of the arguments spread (if it is possible or not and how it could be done) and I do not want to be the dog in the manger, but please keep this topic off this list here.

Best regards,

Ulrich

--

[Barbara Currier]

Corelli Crystal Medium Alto / Viola
SOL - G - 3
Medium
REF. 733 M
Wound on stabilon

:^)
Barbara