Storing geocoding results

[mydoghasworms]

I have just come across a part in the Terms of Service that seem to indicate that you may not store information from geocoding using Google Maps. I am building an application where users would be able to put a marker on a map and save it with their profile on my website, but it seems (from the extract below) that this would be a violation of the Terms of Service.

Can someone confirm this? If this is the case, does Google offer any other scheme where one would be allowed to take Lats/Longs determined from Google Maps Geocoding and store them?

The extract from the ToS:

10.1.3 Restrictions against Data Export or Copying.

...

(b) No Pre-Fetching, Caching, or Storage of Content. (...) For example, you must not use the Content to create an independent database of “places.”

[davie strachan]

Hi
It is generally conceded that the procedure below is within TOS
1.Geocode and place marker
2.Get user to to move marker to exact location
3 Save the new location + all the other data provided by user you
require to database

Step 2 ensures that the lat/lng data is not the data Google provides
Regards Davie

[mydoghasworms]

Thanks very much for the reply Davie. Seems like this is a bit of a minefield.

So let's say that I also give the user the option to find a place with autocomplete, then place the marker based on the location chosen by the user from the autocomplete (without the user subsequently moving the marker), and obtain that long/lat from that and store it, that would be a violation of the ToS, right?

The thing is that if you geocode the location to begin with and it is correct, there is no incentive for the user to move the marker after that.

[Andrew Leach]

On 28 October 2011 12:05, mydoghasworms <mydogh...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> The thing is that if you geocode the location to begin with and it is
> correct, there is no incentive for the user to move the marker after that.

There is an incentive if it's the marker's moveend event which enables
the OK button to send the data back to you.

[mydoghasworms]

Thanks Andrew. So it sounds like you just need a technical loophole to prevent you actually using the data from a geocoded result, and then you are covered.

I have thought of the following approaches:

1) Add or subtract 1.0E-10 from the long or lat so that it is not technically the result from the geocode.

2) The ToS tell me that I cannot store the content, so in a court of law, I could always argue that I am merely offering a public service. I myself am not storing the content; the user is using my service to store the content.*

* Because, when you think about it, what stops the user from storing the lats and longs from a GMaps geocode on someone else public service in the form of a document? If the person offering the document service has also agreed to the GMaps ToS, then they are incriminated by storing the results of a geocode (even though the user provided it). The implications become totally ridiculous.

Cheers,

Martin

[Rossko]

> 1) Add or subtract 1.0E-10 from the long or lat so that it is not
> technically the result from the geocode.

But it is still directly derived from Google data, "derived work", not
good enough? (no lawyer)

You could display the geocode with offset to the user, so forcing/
encouraging them to drag it to the correct place. A better way might
be to display a map centred according to geocode but with no marker at
all. Make the user click to create a new one.

As a general rule, users know where they are better than any geocoder
- so you should end up with better data. If the users have any
incentive to get it right, of course.

> 2) The ToS tell me that *I* cannot store the content, so in a court of law,

> I could always argue that I am merely offering a public service. I myself
> am not storing the content; the user is using my service to store the
> content.*

I think that's sunk too, you are responsible for your service. If I
write defamatory remarks on someone elses's piece of paper, I'm
responsible.

You do need to bear in mind *why* you are storing this content, which
you haven't told us.
If, say, you were going to use it to analyse your user base for
mailshots or whatever - why the heck should Google permit that for
free.
Whereas if, say, you were storing purely for convenience in
displaying another map later, that is just a caching purpose. That's
okay provided you also meet the other restrictions - public, time
limited etc.

[mydoghasworms]

Thanks Rossko, you bring up an interesting point:

To me, "caching" means a temporary storage (e.g. for performance) that does not live beyond the session, which is different from some persistent storage, like a database, for example, where the value is associated with other data. But maybe my understanding is wrong.

In my case, the purpose of the data would be to allow users to put up property for sale, which a prospective buyer can then locate again on a Google map. The co-ordinates that the user plots would be stored along with the property listing. (Sounds like it contravenes 10.2(b) of the ToS, but that seems to address usage of Google's Content, not one's own).

The service will of course be free (though perhaps ad-sponsored, which I think is still in line with the ToS) and public.

I am not sure what you mean though by "time-limited" (don't see mention of this in the ToS), though of course listings would expire, and users have complete control over their data and can delete it at any time.

That said, the workarounds described in this thread (such as forcing the user to place a marker) seem to just bypass these restrictions anyway. (I mean, having the user move the marker after geocoding could be construed to result in a "derivative" work anyway - perhaps).

[davie strachan]

Hi
The geocoder only places a marker on the map to the coordinates
supplied by Google
If the user then moves the marker to a new position the coordinates
is not Google generated data.Otherwise Google has the copyright to all
lat lng coordinates in the world???
As long as you dont store any data directly generated by Google either
geocoded or reverse geocoded any data recieved from the user is yours
to save (dependant on any relevant data protection laws in your
country)
Regards Davie

[Rossko]

> If the user then moves the marker to a new position the coordinates
> is not Google generated data.Otherwise Google has the copyright to all
> lat lng coordinates in the world???

But there is an argument that any coordinate taken from a Google map
is 'derived data'. If you went out and surveyed the location with
sextant etc., or read it off a GPS, its not derived from Google.
It's not the numbers that are copyright, its the means by which they
were obtained.

The UK's public mapping agency takes the 'derived data' position,
heres a technical look at it for the sleepless.
http://www.freeourdata.org.uk/blog/2009/07/interesting-severable-improvements-and-derived-data-and-ordnance-survey/

[mydoghasworms]

Thanks Davie and Rossko for your replies.

Rossko makes a good point: The fact that you are using Google's tools for determining the data could mean that they own the data even though a user placed the marker on the map.

Whether they own that or not, the question then is whether and how they allow you to use it.

Davie is of course right in that we are talking about two numbers, and it is very difficult to claim ownership of numbers, although it could be easy for Google to prove (in my case, for example) that I am using their technology to obtain those numbers.

Worst case scenario for me is: I run a site and Google tries to shut down my use of their technology for breach of their terms of service. This would be quite difficult, because all requests are coming from users' web browsers all over the internet, so they would have to get some legal injunction to stop me storing their geocode results.

You may find the following interesting though: Since posting the original question here, I also posted the question on a different forum, after finding some other interesting information. I will just quote myself here:

I have seen some conflicting information on this. According to the Google Maps terms of service, my understanding is that this would violate the ToS agreement.

On the other hand, according to this answer:
http://www.google.com/support/forum/p/maps/thread?tid=42dbb1b2b5dbc6ad&hl=en&fid=42dbb1b2b5dbc6ad00048fe6980e7b61&hltp=2

In the FAQs received by this person from Google, it says: "Bulk geocoding and caching is allowed, with the understanding that the geocodes are for use with a Google Map at some time."

In my case, the points will be displayed again on a Google Map, so according to the last piece of information, I should be allowed to use the data this way in my application.

This post is at http://www.google.com/support/forum/p/maps/thread?tid=26fa68e392fa50a0&hl=en and I received some interesting feedback there as well. I wish we could get a clear answer from Google on this.

[mydoghasworms]

Without you having to read all the above, what I found in another thread was someone telling how Google had sent them some FAQs indicating that it would be OK to use the geocoding results if it was going to be used on Google Maps again (which is what I intend to do), but this is not specified in the Terms of Service, so the information is a bit conflicting. All very confusing.

[Rossko]

> > In the FAQs received by this person from Google, it says: "Bulk geocoding
> > and caching is allowed, with the understanding that the geocodes are for
> > use with a Google Map at some time."

Yes, see terms 10.1.3(b), that's why I said the purpose was relevant.

> > In my case, the points will be displayed again on a Google Map, so
> > according to the last piece of information, I should be allowed to use the

> > data this way in my application.*

"only" displayed on a Google Map is important.
Doing something else as well e.g. analyzing user distribution, would I
think clearly invalidate the concession.

Here's a grey area for you; using the stored geocoded data for
searching, e.g. find all properties for sale within 50 miles of some
customer. Is that an allowed purpose? I'd guess Google's intent is
that it should be, provided you show the results on their map.
Whereas the same search producing only text results shouldn't be
allowed.

[Rossko]

> I want Google to answer this
> question clearly.

They do, they publish their terms and conditions.
https://developers.google.com/maps/terms
Those of us that need help to fully understand these will need to hire
our own lawyer.

Those terms have been updated since this thread was last active, so
you would need to read them afresh anyway.