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I figured people would be happy. I’m not on StackOverFlow, so moving to there means you don’t have to listen to me anymore.
My thoughts on the matter…
While I wanted a space that was more GAE for CTO’s / Project managers, which was why I pushed for www.cloudonastring.com as a discussion list, I recognize that Stack is not newb friendly, and a lot of the questions that come through here would not be treated nicely.
Letting the Stack community handle questions likely lightens the load on GAE team to free them up to do other things, but moving the community to Stack also means that you open the community to poachers. People don’t troll here looking to say “you know Java on EC2 works really well” or you know that PyCloud will run all your GAE apps and doesn’t have the stupid 60 time out or scheduler issues.”
I have a couple of times told people who weren’t finding answer here to check Stack, because they are much better at doing things like “I have an N-node traveling salesman problem what is the most efficient way to handle it with the memory constraints of GAE’s F1 Instance” but that is really about understanding that GAE can’t commit people to answer those questions, and most of the hardcore coders on this list get annoyed by the newbs, or don’t want to share info for free.
I stick around this group because as many of you have noticed and complained about, when I am testing a performance tweak GAE provides valuable insight about how the black box works, and users point me to pitfalls, or better optimizations. That is something that Stack doesn’t encourage. (the would probably kick me for doing it)
I view this list as the half way between what I want and what the hard core coders want. I don’t know if I think this announcement makes this list more that, or less that.
-Brandon
For things that are not "development questions" or doesn't fit Stack
Overflow, you are still free to use the groups, and if you find a bug,
filling an issue on the public tracker will always be appreciated by
the team and the community.
Note that we only plan to deprecated language specific groups (that is
google-appengine-python and google-appengine-java) were most of the
posts are development questions that really fit SO model.
Hope all that makes sense.
--
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Developer Programs Engineer
Google Developer Relations
While I'll agree that experimental feature might be subject to change
and deprecation, all the stable API [1] are here to stay and are
subject to the 3 years deprecation policy [2].
Also note that Stack Overflow questions and anwers can be edited over
time (like a wiki), unlike the groups where it is really difficult to
surface and update interesting content without creating a new thread.
[1] http://code.google.com/appengine/docs/features.html
[2] http://code.google.com/appengine/terms.html
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Note that we do not plan to deprecate google-appengine@ group (only
the language specific groups google-appengine-python@ and
google-appengine-java@ where most posts fit the stack overflow Q&A
model).
You can also follow Stack Overflow by email by subscribing to a tag
[1], or with your prefered news reader through RSS [2].
Hope that helps.
[1] Over the google-appengine tag and click subscribe
[2] http://stackoverflow.com/feeds/tag/google-app-engine
Do you have examples of newbie questions that didn't get treated
nicely on Stack Overflow? People (include myself) often ask through
comments to edit the questions for including more information, but
that's really for increase the quality of the content there. The fact
that questions and answers can be edited like a wiki actually make it
less noisy than a long series of interleaved of posts asking for
technical details.
> Letting the Stack community handle questions likely lightens the load on GAE
> team to free them up to do other things, but moving the community to Stack
> also means that you open the community to poachers. People don’t troll here
> looking to say “you know Java on EC2 works really well” or you know that
> PyCloud will run all your GAE apps and doesn’t have the stupid 60 time out
> or scheduler issues.”
I'm not aware of any trolls or poachers on the google-app-engine tag,
and if they were any their answers are likely to get downvoted by the
community (you!).
On the contrary, answers are really focused on the topic raised by the
questions, and mentioning another platform on a questions tagged with
google-app-engine is likely to be considered offtopic and downvoted. I
have never seen answers there like the one you suggested.
> I have a couple of times told people who weren’t finding answer here to
> check Stack, because they are much better at doing things like “I have an
> N-node traveling salesman problem what is the most efficient way to handle
> it with the memory constraints of GAE’s F1 Instance” but that is really
> about understanding that GAE can’t commit people to answer those questions,
> and most of the hardcore coders on this list get annoyed by the newbs, or
> don’t want to share info for free.
I believe redirecting people with development questions to Stack
Overflow is a good practice and thank you for doing that. However I
don't agree with your sentiment about the App Engine community, a lot
of people in the community are sharing information for free (including
Robert, Jeff, Moraes, you and others) here and on Stack Overflow.
> I stick around this group because as many of you have noticed and complained
> about, when I am testing a performance tweak GAE provides valuable insight
> about how the black box works, and users point me to pitfalls, or better
> optimizations. That is something that Stack doesn’t encourage. (the would
> probably kick me for doing it)
The general group is still there for more general (but still
technical) discussions that are not a specific development questions
or don't fit Stack Overflow for any reasons. (IIRC you mostly
contribute to the general group anyway, and not language specific
groups like google-appengine-python/java).
> I view this list as the half way between what I want and what the hard core
> coders want. I don’t know if I think this announcement makes this list more
> that, or less that.
The move from the language specific groups
(google-appengine-python/java) to Stack Overflow for answering
development questions is really about improving the Developer
Experience with a better tool for sharing knowledge.
We believe the model of Stack Overflow is more appropriate for this
because good contents and contributors can be recognized as such
through the reputation and curation system: one example is that you
can easily identify the answer to a question when coming from search
without having to dig into the abyss of multiple forum threads,
another one is that you can easily flag questions as duplicate, or
edit existing content (like a wiki) to improve its quality.clear
things up a bit
Hope that address your concerns.
@Ikai - I think this is a great idea, however like Ruslan I'm a bit concerned about how much Google employees will be looking at the questions. Would it be possible for us to have a mechanism for raising to a Googler any questions that cannot be answered by the community. As a group we're able to deal with most simple problems or confirm bugs but it would be great to allow certain people - or people with a specific level of expertise - to bring questions to your attention.@Ruslan - This is a good idea, raise an enhancement request and I'll happily star it. Or submit a patch?Thanks,Mat.On 7 February 2012 02:31, Ruslan V <rus...@gmail.com> wrote:Dear Ikai,
Monday, February 6, 2012, 6:26:10 PM, you wrote:
It would be great if you guys allow engineers to replace the stub with custom implementation as it was done in gae-sqlite for Python version of SDK. Is there a chance of this happening ?
It looks like your question has already been answered:
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9124564/datastore-access-is-horribly-slow-on-dev-server-if-you-have-more-than-few-object
The datastore stub is that: a stub. You cannot reliable depend on it for performance data.
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Hi Johan,I knew it's possible to identify someone's expertise - I was just asking whether they could raise difficult issues to Google employees, but I guess that' irrelevant if your're actively involved in answering questions already. The only other issue I've found when using Stack Overflow is how to get notified - at the moment I enjoy looking through the e-mails to this group and answering any that I can. Maybe the RSS will work for me. Then you just need to get GMail to support RSS feeds and we're sorted :-)Thanks,Mat.
This announcement is about "Community support" which is offered by the
community and the App Engine team members as best effort.
Google does offer operational support for premier account, see:
http://code.google.com/appengine/docs/premier/index.html
We believe we can have a better engagement from both the community and
App Engine team members, if using Stack Overflow for development
questions instead of language specific groups.
Hope that helps to clarify the situation.
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My main concern is that I will miss many of the questions & answers,because I will have to manually go an check StackOverflow.Is there a way to get a daily StackOverflow digest email?Cheers,-Andrin
We observed that more and more people use Stack Overflow for asking
development questions about App Engine:
- 107 questions Last 7 Days
- 461 questions Last 30 Days
And regularly development questions are posted on the language
specific groups, appear to be already answered on Stack Overflow (a
quick search on a particular topic often shows Stack Overflow Q&As as
their first results).
We believe that by focusing on 1 platform for development questions
(instead of having google-appengine-java, google-appengine-python and
Stack Overflow), we could create a better developer experience for App
Engine by improving the quality of community support.
Part of this decision is also about officially moving community
support where developers are already going for their development
questions, and we believe Stack Overflow is becoming the preferred
destination for this.
Hope that helps you to understand the rational of this decision.
On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 4:20 PM, Daniel Florey <daniel...@gmail.com> wrote:
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The only negative aspect in my mind is that it does not facilitate
discussion in quite the same way. However, as Johan and Ikai have
pointed out, this group will still be here for discussions. Here if
one sees a question that has been "answered" then follows up with a
more detailed explanation or caveats, it probably gets more attention
than on SO. I know I don't generally follow old questions on SO.
Here they pop up and I see them.
Anyways, I think this will be an overall positive move.
Robert
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Most have them have been cleaned up, but why do you think I don't hang out
there? D-Nice, Necronet and a few others have flamed me for asking simple
questions, usually about "simple" Java things.
So even when the answer looks nice in hind sight, the Realtime experience is
shit.
> I'm not aware of any trolls or poachers on the google-app-engine tag, and
if
> they were any their answers are likely to get downvoted by the community
> (you!).
You haven't been paying attention. My guys get contacted through their
OverFlow Specific email CONSTANTLY about other services, usually
CloudFoundry related, but Generally 2-3 mails per post about Django, 10 if
they post about a Java technology. They have gone to all sharing a single
login for work stuff, to cut down on the spam.
Is there a way to get a daily StackOverflow digest email?
Cheers,
-Andrin
You can get emails about your question, you can get an rss of a tag.
It is a wiki so both are kind of weird. And there is not a good way to “sponge” the info the way I do with emails that I can then sort offline, or say to my self… I think Andrin asked that but I didn’t really read it at the time.
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On Feb 7, 2012 9:32 PM, "Brandon Wirtz" <dra...@digerat.com> wrote:
>
> > Do you have examples of newbie questions that didn't get treated nicely on
> > Stack Overflow?
>
> Most have them have been cleaned up, but why do you think I don't hang out
> there? D-Nice, Necronet and a few others have flamed me for asking simple
> questions, usually about "simple" Java things.
>
> So even when the answer looks nice in hind sight, the Realtime experience is
> shit.
That's not my experience, but as someone mainly answering questions on the google-app-engine tag I might be biased.
> > I'm not aware of any trolls or poachers on the google-app-engine tag, and
> if
> > they were any their answers are likely to get downvoted by the community
> > (you!).
>
> You haven't been paying attention. My guys get contacted through their
> OverFlow Specific email CONSTANTLY about other services, usually
> CloudFoundry related, but Generally 2-3 mails per post about Django, 10 if
> they post about a Java technology. They have gone to all sharing a single
> login for work stuff, to cut down on the spam.
That's really weird because stack overflow doesn't seem to allow private messaging between users.
http://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/431/any-way-to-send-a-personal-message-to-another-user
And they seems to really value the fact that all communication between users are public and scoped to a specific question.
Maybe your collaborators included their email addresses in their profile and that got harvested from here, who knows.
But feel free to share your feedback about stack overflow and google-app-engine tag again if you decide to revisit it in the future.
>
>
>
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Hi,I did not want to offend anyone.
I just think it would make perfectly sense to improve Groups to allow users to rate posts and display the best answer on top etc.Especially if you take into account that Groups is also used as the Google Apps help system.
We are using almost all Google products actively including many of the dev tools and I had the impression that since introducing G+ Google recently tried to streamline the offerings.
There are also many way I can think of to improve the Groups experience by adding some G+ stuff - which is very unlikely to happen in SO.
I know that the decision is made and I'll have to get used to SO, but I hope it will get reverted anytime soon - as it happend to the "old" "new" Google Help system ;-)
Cheers,
Daniel
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You can also check this Chrome extension which tracks pending
questions for a list of tags:
https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/bnnkhapbhkejookmhgpgaikfdoegkmdp
Currently the lowest level of granularly for email is a digest every
15 min, monitoring tag RSS feeds with an email gateway (built on App
Engine!) might be a good way to get instant email notification for
individual question.
There seems to be a few projects already doing that:
https://github.com/jmhobbs/RSS-Engine
Let us know if you would be interested by setting up something like
this for the community.
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>Is RSS the way to go? Any special tricks?
I have my personal assistant read all the messages and flag the important ones, and occasionally post my canned response if I have posted the same thing more than once. Probably getting your PA to do the same would be good, at least until he/she can build a set of filters to do all of that for you.
>Is RSS the way to go? Any special tricks?
I have my personal assistant read all the messages and flag the important ones, and occasionally post my canned response if I have posted the same thing more than once. Probably getting your PA to do the same would be good, at least until he/she can build a set of filters to do all of that for you.
>I fear that Neptune has not blessed me with such minions. Perhaps I'm wearing the wrong outfit :-)
Do you have kids. I hear they can be trained. I have a Cat. She doesn’t do so well with keyboard dexterity which is why there are so many typos in my posts on days Ivy (PA) isn’t in the office
>I fear that Neptune has not blessed me with such minions. Perhaps I'm wearing the wrong outfit :-)
Do you have kids. I hear they can be trained. I have a Cat. She doesn’t do so well with keyboard dexterity which is why there are so many typos in my posts on days Ivy (PA) isn’t in the office
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Robert
I live in outlook, I'm trying to pick settings that work for all of you and
for me internally... and things get messed up when I reply in HTML Mode.
But the fix I had pissed off the Azure forum guys.
I am considering setting up an email address just for GAE, but I like that
right now it all dumps in with my other cloud forums... Oh well.
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If there is a tag for that you can create a mail forward for it on stack-over-mail.appspot.com :)
Its generic...
Cheers,
-Andrin
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Looking forwards to checking this out.
Robert
Thanks for your feedback, I understand your concerns about finding the
right support channel when your project overlap more than one Google
Technology and I agree that's something that should be improved.
Until now we relied on silo'ed Google groups (per language, per
technologies) and part of the move to Stack Overflow is to try to find
a solution to scale community support more easily for App Engine
development questions that span across multiple technologies.
By using multiple tags for their questions, developers are now able to
target more than one community: you can see an example of related tags
on the dedicated page for each tags:
http://stackoverflow.com/tags/google-app-engine/topusers
python× 3541
java× 2035
gae-datastore× 1084
django× 644
gwt× 387
http://stackoverflow.com/tags/gwt/topusers
java× 2152
javascript× 446
google-app-engine× 387
eclipse× 325
css× 256
http://stackoverflow.com/tags/google-maps/topusers
javascript× 2196
android× 1383
google-maps-api-3× 1273
jquery× 595
google× 532
http://stackoverflow.com/tags/android/topusers
java× 18131
android-layout× 5143
listview× 4293
eclipse× 3615
sqlite× 3484
Hope that answers some of your concerns about the move.
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Ikai,
>Supercobra
I want to be in the meeting where you present to your manager the reaction to the news of the move to StackOverflow.
“Well, over all I think the most of the community is behind it, but Supercobra, and Brandon, the guy in the mermaid costume, have expressed some concerns”
“Really? Did you ask G.I. Joe and Batman what they think?“
supercobra's opinion is more important than batman's, because batman
can't code all that well anyway
This is very cool. +1 for using that.
On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 10:45 AM, Daniel Florey <daniel...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I just realized that all the nice feature are already available in Google
> Groups. Checkout this post:
> https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!topic/google-plus-developers/n0i53XYAM8E
>
> You can see that the Google+ group has all the features enabled that we are
> talking about: Asking questions, rating answers, displaying best answer on
> top, tagging questions etc.
> So it would easily be possible to create a GAE group that holds all the
> questions with different tags (java,python,datastore etc) and still keep the
> advantages of Google Group (number of new posts in group overview, seamless
> integration into the Google experience etc.)
I enabled the new group interface for google-appengine group and
created a couple of tags (let me know if I forgot any):
python
java
go
python27
datastore
memcache
taskqueue
blobstore
channel
mail
users
backend
urlfetch
xmpp
files
mapreduce
protorpc
openid
storage
prospectivesearch
conversion
remoteapi
Feel free to use this when Stack Overflow doesn't fit your needs.
> The only valid argument left for the SO move IMO is that it may be a good
> way to convince java folks not yet addicted to GAE by flooding SO with GAE
> praising posts.
> As it finally looks like a "marketing" driven decision to me I'm out of
> arguments and will patiently wait until sanity wins ;-)
As Greg said, one of the principal reason for moving development
questions to Stack Overflow is to go where a lot of developer already
go to get answers to questions. I have never seen marketing content on
Stack Overflow and if there is any it is likely to be downvoted by the
community.
Hope you will enjoy the new group interface ;)
Hi App Engine Developers,
In the last few years, the Q&A website Stack Overflow has become an invaluable tool for developer communities. We’re pleased to announce that we are migrating to Stack Overflow as the official channel for answering development questions about Google App Engine.The google-appengine group will remain open for general discussions and announcements that are better suited for the groups format.
We believe that Stack Overflow is better platform for sharing knowledge and answering support questions given its larger community, de-duping of similar questions and contributor reputation system. We also expect that App Engine developers will be able to contribute and benefit from the wider range of language-related information not specific to App Engine. In addition, due to Stack Overflow’s use of OpenID for account management, developers will not need to create a new account to participate in the discussion - developers will be able to log in with any of the identity providers supported by Stack Overflow, including Google Accounts.
We plan on deprecating the App Engine language-specific groups, namely google-appengine-python and google-appengine-java. The google-appengine-go discussion group will continue to remain open for at least as long as the Go runtime is in experimental status.
The Python and Java groups will be placed into read-only on March 5th, 2012. While answering technical questions, we will begin nudging developers to ask their questions on Stack Overflow using the google-app-engine tag.
Please let us know if there are any questions or concerns about this announcement.
Happy coding!
- Ikai Lan, on behalf of the App Engine team
Hi App Engine Developers,
In the last few years, the Q&A website Stack Overflow has become an invaluable tool for developer communities. We’re pleased to announce that we are migrating to Stack Overflow as the official channel for answering development questions about Google App Engine.The google-appengine group will remain open for general discussions and announcements that are better suited for the groups format.
We believe that Stack Overflow is better platform for sharing knowledge and answering support questions given its larger community, de-duping of similar questions and contributor reputation system. We also expect that App Engine developers will be able to contribute and benefit from the wider range of language-related information not specific to App Engine. In addition, due to Stack Overflow’s use of OpenID for account management, developers will not need to create a new account to participate in the discussion - developers will be able to log in with any of the identity providers supported by Stack Overflow, including Google Accounts.
We plan on deprecating the App Engine language-specific groups, namely google-appengine-python and google-appengine-java. The google-appengine-go discussion group will continue to remain open for at least as long as the Go runtime is in experimental status.
The Python and Java groups will be placed into read-only on March 5th, 2012. While answering technical questions, we will begin nudging developers to ask their questions on Stack Overflow using the google-app-engine tag.
Please let us know if there are any questions or concerns about this announcement.
Happy coding!
- Ikai Lan, on behalf of the App Engine team
Hi App Engine Developers,
In the last few years, the Q&A website Stack Overflow has become an invaluable tool for developer communities. We’re pleased to announce that we are migrating to Stack Overflow as the official channel for answering development questions about Google App Engine.The google-appengine group will remain open for general discussions and announcements that are better suited for the groups format.
We believe that Stack Overflow is better platform for sharing knowledge and answering support questions given its larger community, de-duping of similar questions and contributor reputation system. We also expect that App Engine developers will be able to contribute and benefit from the wider range of language-related information not specific to App Engine. In addition, due to Stack Overflow’s use of OpenID for account management, developers will not need to create a new account to participate in the discussion - developers will be able to log in with any of the identity providers supported by Stack Overflow, including Google Accounts.
We plan on deprecating the App Engine language-specific groups, namely google-appengine-python and google-appengine-java. The google-appengine-go discussion group will continue to remain open for at least as long as the Go runtime is in experimental status.
The Python and Java groups will be placed into read-only on March 5th, 2012. While answering technical questions, we will begin nudging developers to ask their questions on Stack Overflow using the google-app-engine tag.
Please let us know if there are any questions or concerns about this announcement.
Happy coding!
- Ikai Lan, on behalf of the App Engine team
> AdWords communities (6 languages) also just moved to a 3rd party platform:
That’s an SEO play. Adwords is tired of all the trash talked about them in their forum ranking so highly because it is hosted on a Google Domain.
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This would be fine with me if someone from Google would actually answer our questions on Stack Overflow. ;-)
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-1 for reviving a 1.5-year-old thread.Jeff
hi.. I am an aspirant of GSOC '14. I did register as student and submitted my proposal. But yesterday when i tried to login, I found that my access is suspended only to GSOC. I was redirected to the page saying "If you've been redirected to this page from a particular product, it means that your access to this product has been suspended." (https://support.google.com/accounts/answer/40039?p=ah) i talked with google voice at GSOC forum and then from Melange developers. Melange developers informed me that Melange uses App Engine for user authentication and management and so asked me to check if i can log in to it or not. when i tried to log in to it, i faced the same problem. so they hypothesize that even when i visit google-melange.com i am getting blocked by App Engine before App Engine even passes my request to Melange. please see to this.. i have really worked so hard for it. my all hard work will go in vain if my account is not restored within few hours. please help me out. student registration will end in 10 hours. i would also like to share the incident from when i am facing this issue. actually my GSOC profile was open and was left static in a tab. so that if i get any reply on my proposal, i can respond to it asap at the same time i was working to fix a bug for the organisation for whom i would like to work, on other tabs. This bug was relate to indifferent behavior on session out. to recreate that bug i was deleting the cookies again and again. after some time when i went back to my GSOC page and refereshed it, i was redirected to that page saying "my access is suspended". and from then i am facing this problem. Melange-developers hypothesized that App Engine has somehow mistaken the cookie-clearing behavior as i have described as possibly nefarious and spammy and put a block on me. please remove my block.. you can bug-fix this issue later but please remove my block first.. i don't have time. student registration will end in few hours. i am posting it here to get your attention.
hi.. I am an aspirant of GSOC '14. I did register as student and submitted my proposal. But yesterday when i tried to login, I found that my access is suspended only to GSOC. I was redirected to the page saying "If you've been redirected to this page from a particular product, it means that your access to this product has been suspended." (https://support.google.com/accounts/answer/40039?p=ah
) i talked with google voice at GSOC forum and then from Melange developers. Melange developers informed me that Melange uses App Engine for user authentication and management at the same time i was working to fix a bug for the organisation for whom i would like to work, on other tabs. This bug was relate to indifferent behavior on session out. to recreate that bug i was deleting the cookies again and again. after some time when i went back to my GSOC page and refereshed it, i was redirected to that page saying "my access is suspended". and from then i am facing this problem.
Great idea! Agreed, on it being a great thing that we can recursively define priorities within an established set of priorities in order to arrive at one deterministic path :) Best of luck in your new job!
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I want for real
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I want for real
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