Google should want to provide messaging in App Engine
Ray M
I implore the community of App Engine users, developers and customers to assist me in presenting an undeniable business case to Google. As such, I have begun with points from my own experience and analysis:
- Because of its power and flexibility, messaging has become a critical component of automated inter-business communication. App Engine cannot compete fully in the business hosting sector without a messaging mechanism; and Google has the opportunity to create an implementation which makes all others obsolete.
- Messaging implementations like JMS already inter-operate seamlessly with other languages. There is no reason Google must implement the server portion in Java or any particular language, and once implemented, can easily be made available to all App Engine hosting environments.
- Most message-triggered business-logic need no response or just an ACKNOWLEDGE response, saving processing and bandwidth.
- Multiple-destination deliveries can use UDP, saving bandwidth.
- It will be a no-brainer for messaging to respect and contribute to engine quotas.
- Message-processing listeners can be instantiated on demand, shuffled-around, load-balanced, cached and discarded just like servlets and can be included in the web app, or more efficiently deployed, operated and managed in its own name-based mass virtual-hosting environment with far less overhead than an entire servlet engine.
- The world expects HTTP and HTTPS to be on ports 80 and 443, respectively, but not so for messaging! The implementation can provide a factory for client connections allowing Google to more effectively manage ports on the servers which act as entry points and frees Google from being able to use only DNS-based load balancing mechanisms on its entry-point servers.
- Google, which is already quite adept at hosting, indexing and providing analytics for the world's standardized representations of information, will be in a stronger position to host, index and provide analytics for the world's disparate mechanisms of communication as well, or even to unify them.
Brandon Wirtz
Huh?
In the same place I have error logging, I can have “Fetch URL” and send my self an SMS, or an email, or a fax, probably if I found the service a Carrier pigeon. Did my traffic fall off because someone else died? I can ask every 10 seconds “how many instances am I running?” and again fetch something from anywhere to send the message I need to the outside world.
If all of Google went up in a pile of smoke… Then I might need something to check that I’m still running… and that would have to be external to GAE.
Your long winded message basically says, I’ve been doing this for 20 years I’m an old fogey looking for a reason to be relevant, and the only fault I can find is that if something happens I want messaging. It’s there enable it/build it/grow a pair.
GAE is a platform you can do anything in the platform the platform has the bits to do. You can’t build it to send you pictures of the blinky lights on the front of the server because it doesn’t have a web cam, but short of that, anything digital, you just talk bits over the web to what you need to make the functionality happen.
I want GAE to focus on Speed, and Reliability (and price [today more than ever :-)] ) not worry about is there JMS. You can bolt that on with the parts that are there. You’re being a troll, or an attention seeker, or a combination there of.
I need more APIs like I need a third rectum. And the APIs I do need are related to the things people “expect” from python and java… Which Google now calls “Backend” which they just announced TADA!!! They did the right thing. Not what the Analyst said to do, because it would seem he doesn’t have experience with the platform. You are a Prius driver complaining that the Ferrari doesn’t have a Continuous Variable Transmission, and that the Ford F350 doesn’t have remote trunk unlock on the key fob.
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Calvin
Brandon Wirtz
I’m grumpy cause 6 “analysts” have called today to get my take on their doomsday predictions of Appengine.
“Do you think Google will fail because they can’t run windows or linux software on Appengine?”
“Is it true that AppEngine can’t save anything bigger than would fit on a floppy disk?”
“If you build on GAE and decide to insource is it true you have to start over?”
“So GAE runs Java does that mean Sun will sue them like they did over Android?”
“GAE won’t run wordpress, with that being the most installed web software on the planet how will Google Gain Market share”
“GAE is only shooting for 99.95% uptime if clients need 5 9s of reliability how will they use GAE?”
The other analyst at least had the decency to pony up the $300 an hour for a 30 minute phone call… This one just reached out over email on a list he has never posted to before.
Yeah, I would have liked to be at IO, but we were launching our service the same day we found out we were going to go broke offering it…. And BlogWorld Expo is coming up… and I moved to this rainy place rather than being in the bay… besides I’d rather come down and take the Guys to lunch rather than have to share them with 5000 attendees…
The Samsung tab would be nice, I need a digital picture frame…
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Darien Caldwell
to GAE you want. Or anything else, for that matter. And GAE already
does support XMPP, which is a messaging system, and a very widely
adopted and robust, and open one at that. Basically the OP doesn't
want to get with the times and doesn't want to do any work. Make a JMS
system for GAE. Someone with your credentials should be able to do
that, right?
nickmilon
"You are a Prius driver complaining that the
Ferrari doesn't have a Continuous Variable Transmission, and that the
Ford
F350 doesn't have remote trunk unlock on the key fob."
wrote:
rpmfl72
You are showing your ignorance of both the AppEngine APIs and of efficient enterprise system design practices. True, messaging, and JMS in particular, although my focus was not to attempt to push JMS on Google as you allege, can be tunneled through HTTP for a single request / response, but I'm talking about true publish / subscribe capabilities; and no, it cannot be implemented or I would have done it. The App Engine does not allow hosted applications to listen on a port and with good reason. Maybe when you get to that class on security you might understand why.
And, yes, its true that I was writing software decades before you were born on systems you have never heard of, such as the Burroughs B27 Unisys line, but my diverse experience has actually made me better. I know you're just reacting to the fact that most of the concepts in my posting are above you head, but stay in school and you'll be ok. You might also learn why the Ferrari cannot have a continuous variable transmission at this time, although my F350 does have a remote trunk unlock because it is an Excursion which was built on the F350 frame!
Brandon Wirtz
I’d guess you failed to Google me or visit my page on Wikipedia before you responded.
I’m going to cease commenting on this thread before it gets too far off topic.
-Brandon
Analyst Standard & Poor’s
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MCSE
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First Person in Ohio to be charged with hacking under the DMCA
From: google-a...@googlegroups.com [mailto:google-a...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of rpmfl72
Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2011 6:45 PM
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Brandon Wirtz
I lied.
Using the Java Task Queuing Service API and Camel I was able to set up JMS via ActiveMQ while on a conference call. It’s about 20 minutes worth of work, and the hardest part is that several of the links to the project bits you need to set it up are broken so you have to google some of the code snips from the documentation, that and I suck at G-Auth.
Jim Mittler
I'm curious to understand what you are describing here. Making an external JMS call from within GAE seems straightforward, but are you talking about embedding ActiveMQ within GAE instead?
Jim
