Playing God With the Planet - danger of being too sweeping

[John Latham]

Hello Jim,

I agree with most of what you say below, but in my view it woulsd be a mistake to
tar all cloud-based SRM possibilities with the same brush. Like you, I am highly skeptical
of the possibility that electromagnetic / ion generation schemes might be of value in SRM.

However satellite records over several decades have demonstrated - via the phenomenon
of ship-tracks - that particles emitted from powered ships produce highly visible ship
tracks in the clouds above, as a consequence of their entering the bases of low-level
extensive clouds and being activated as cloud condensation nuclei (CCN) which form
droplets which grow and add to the cloud albedo.

Those of us working on Marine Cloud Brightening MCB would use very small, benign seawater
particles as CCN rather than exhaust particles from ships, but the physics of the technique is
essentially the same, and well-established.

We do not yet know whether MCB will pass all necessary tests, but we do think that it is
worthwhile to perform research to establish whether or not it could.

Cheers, John (Latham).


John Latham
Address: P.O. Box 3000,MMM,NCAR,Boulder,CO 80307-3000
Email: lat...@ucar.edu or john.l...@manchester.ac.uk
Tel: (US-Work) 303-497-8182 or (US-Home) 303-444-2429
or (US-Cell) 303-882-0724 or (UK) 01928-730-002
http://www.mmm.ucar.edu/people/latham
________________________________________
From: geoengi...@googlegroups.com [geoengi...@googlegroups.com] on behalf of Jim Lee [rez...@gmail.com]
Sent: 10 August 2013 03:21
To: geoengi...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [geo] Re: Playing God With the Planet - The Ethics & Politics of Geoengineering

As you could clearly see, my video comment was in response to a "low information voter" and I agree with Mick's response.

Geoengineering seeks to do globally what cloud seeders claim to do locally: control the weather. We lack the knowledge/ability to control rain after 60 years of cloud seeding, no scientific body recognizes cloud seeding as solid science, and the geoengineering SRM gang seems to think that in a relatively short time they can master their art and deploy. I can't see how.

Currently, many different countries are modifying their skies, and there is little accountability or transparency.

When Meteo Systems Weathertec claimed to create rain in the Abu Dhabi desert using ion generators<http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1343470/Have-scientists-discovered-create-downpours-desert.html>, the WMO's expert team on weather modification<http://www.wmo.int/pages/prog/arep/wwrp/new/documents/WMR_documents.final_27_April_1.FINAL.pdf> had a meeting and issued the following condemnation:



“It should be realised that the energy involved in weather systems is so large that it is impossible to create cloud systems that rain, alter wind patterns to bring water vapour into a region, or completely eliminate severe weather phenomena. Weather Modification technologies that claim to achieve such large scale or dramatic effects do not have a sound scientific basis (e.g. hail canons, ionization methods) and should be treated with suspicion.

Purposeful augmentation of precipitation, reduction of hail damage, dispersion of fog and other types of cloud and storm modifications by cloud seeding are developing technologies which are still striving to achieve a sound scientific foundation.”

The same is true for geoengineering SRM. Too large, too many variables: treat with suspicion.

Nonetheless, weather modification using ionization methods continue:


[http://r3zn8d.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/aquiess-sciblue-april-july-2012-cloud-ionizers-end-texas-drought.png]<http://r3zn8d.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/aquiess-sciblue-april-july-2012-cloud-ionizers-end-texas-drought.png>

Aquiess and Sciblue are claiming to move tropospheric rivers using "Weather Resonance Technology" and control the direction of cloud systems. Whether their claims are true or not, the claim alone should be enough to turn some heads, yet few believe their is a credible interaction between electromagnetic energy and weather.

How many other companies/countries have their hand in the cookie jar?

My stance:

ClimateViewer Position Statement, aka the “Clarity Clause”

We intend to push for greater transparency in the world of climate engineering.

[Terraforming Incorporated, How do you like your weather?]

1. Create a “multilateral registry of cloud seeding, geoengineering, and atmospheric experimentation events with information and data collection on key characteristics” [1]<http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200910/cmselect/cmsctech/221/10011310.htm>.
2. Create a publicly available multilateral registry website, with hourly updates on atmospheric activities.
3. Require nations/states/persons to notify the multilateral registry (at least) 24 hours prior to initiation of atmospheric experimentation/modification to ensure public notice, and liability should said experimentation/modification cause monetary, environmental, or physical losses.

Jim Lee<http://www.facebook.com/rezn8d>


~ Jim
http://climateviewer.com/


On Friday, August 9, 2013 5:12:21 PM UTC-4, Michael Hayes wrote:
Thanks Mick,

Yes, the "Ban" thing is becoming something of an urban legend. Here is how I would deconstruct the key thinking: "in the absence of science based (science would not be absent), global (global what? Political, science, media talking heads, The Colbert Nation?), transparent and effective control and regulatory mechanisms for geo-engineering (We currently have 'reasonable knowability' of the combined human affect on our large climate systems and BD. The AGU just confirmed this view. Thus, we are currently, actively and knowingly geoengineering the planet. Once 'reasonable knowability' is established, the word 'intentional' becomes legally, morally and ethically moot...That truly is an "inconvenient truth"!), and in accordance with the precautionary approach and Article 14 of the Convention (This is contradictory to Article 15 of the Rio Declaration<http://www.gdrc.org/u-gov/precaution-7.html>), that no climate-related geo-engineering activities 76<http://www.cbd.int/decision/cop/default.shtml?id=12299#cop-10-dec-33-fn76> that may affect biodiversity take place, until there is an adequate scientific basis on which to justify such activities and appropriate consideration of the associated risks for the environment and biodiversity and associated social, economic and cultural impacts, with the exception of small scale scientific research studies that would be conducted in a controlled setting in accordance with Article 3 of the Convention, and only if they are justified by the need to gather specific scientific data and are subject to a thorough prior assessment of the potential impacts on the environment;" Article 15 must take priority. Or, the mindless adherance to Article 14 becomes a suicide pact. No person, orginization or species should be subjected to such logic.

Any thoughts?

Michael

On Friday, August 9, 2013 8:31:44 AM UTC-7, Jim Lee wrote:
Now on YouTube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YT6YgF_Sams

Enjoy =)
<3 u Clive

Jim Lee
http://climateviewer.com/geoengineering-weather-control.html


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