X ray cloud seeding?
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Andrew Lockley
Dec 6, 2012, 10:35:15 PM12/6/12
to Stephen Salter, John Latham, Alan Gadain, geoengineering
Cloud chambers detect ionising radiation because the ions act as cloud condensation nuclei.
Could high energy and intense x-rays be used to trigger cloud formation in the marine boundary layer? This might also work for drying the upper troposphere - by triggered nucleation and subsequent rain out, using low intensity, high energy x rays.
A
John Latham
Dec 7, 2012, 12:37:26 PM12/7/12
to Andrew Lockley, Stephen Salter, John Latham, Alan Gadain, geoengineering
Hello Andrew,
The conditions inside a Wilson cloud chamber are very different from
in the atmosphere.The supersaturations are immense, because all natural
CCN have been removed.Only then can Xrays initiate droplets. These
conditions dont exist in nature.
What is most needed for natural cloud formation is an unstable temperature structure
and a mechanism for inducing sustained upward motion of moist air.There are
virtually always CCN available, on which droplets will form.
Artificial cloud production is essentially a non-starter in my view.
What can be done is to increase the CCN and therefore droplet number
concentration and cloud albedo in existing clouds. . This is the principle of
cloud brightening.
Not creating clouds, but brightening existing ones!
All Best, John.
John Latham
Address: P.O. Box 3000,MMM,NCAR,Boulder,CO 80307-3000
Email: lat...@ucar.edu or john.l...@manchester.ac.uk
Tel: (US-Work) 303-497-8182 or (US-Home) 303-444-2429
or (US-Cell) 303-882-0724 or (UK) 01928-730-002
http://www.mmm.ucar.edu/people/latham
________________________________________
From: Andrew Lockley [andrew....@gmail.com]
Sent: 07 December 2012 03:35
To: Stephen Salter; John Latham; Alan Gadain; geoengineering
Subject: X ray cloud seeding?
The conditions inside a Wilson cloud chamber are very different from
in the atmosphere.The supersaturations are immense, because all natural
CCN have been removed.Only then can Xrays initiate droplets. These
conditions dont exist in nature.
What is most needed for natural cloud formation is an unstable temperature structure
and a mechanism for inducing sustained upward motion of moist air.There are
virtually always CCN available, on which droplets will form.
Artificial cloud production is essentially a non-starter in my view.
What can be done is to increase the CCN and therefore droplet number
concentration and cloud albedo in existing clouds. . This is the principle of
cloud brightening.
Not creating clouds, but brightening existing ones!
All Best, John.
John Latham
Address: P.O. Box 3000,MMM,NCAR,Boulder,CO 80307-3000
Email: lat...@ucar.edu or john.l...@manchester.ac.uk
Tel: (US-Work) 303-497-8182 or (US-Home) 303-444-2429
or (US-Cell) 303-882-0724 or (UK) 01928-730-002
http://www.mmm.ucar.edu/people/latham
________________________________________
From: Andrew Lockley [andrew....@gmail.com]
Sent: 07 December 2012 03:35
To: Stephen Salter; John Latham; Alan Gadain; geoengineering
Subject: X ray cloud seeding?
Andrew Lockley
Dec 11, 2012, 2:32:50 PM12/11/12
to geoengineering
Would be great to see a model run on these electrical seeding techniques for creating additional snow cover in late spring over permafrost. It could also be used to brighten snow over ice sheets and sea ice.
A
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: "Jim Lee" <rez...@gmail.com>
Date: Dec 11, 2012 2:00 PM
Subject: Re: X ray cloud seeding?
To: <geoengi...@googlegroups.com>
Cc: "Andrew Lockley" <andrew....@gmail.com>, "Stephen Salter" <s.sa...@ed.ac.uk>, "John Latham" <lat...@ucar.edu>, "Alan Gadain" <al...@env.leeds.ac.uk>
What are your thoughts on the work of Ionogenics, ATLANT, WeatherTec, and Aquiess?
From: "Jim Lee" <rez...@gmail.com>
Date: Dec 11, 2012 2:00 PM
Subject: Re: X ray cloud seeding?
To: <geoengi...@googlegroups.com>
Cc: "Andrew Lockley" <andrew....@gmail.com>, "Stephen Salter" <s.sa...@ed.ac.uk>, "John Latham" <lat...@ucar.edu>, "Alan Gadain" <al...@env.leeds.ac.uk>
What are your thoughts on the work of Ionogenics, ATLANT, WeatherTec, and Aquiess?
Mick West
Dec 11, 2012, 6:13:33 PM12/11/12
to rez...@gmail.com, geoengi...@googlegroups.com, Andrew Lockley, Stephen Salter, John Latham, Alan Gadain
These ionization cloud seeding companies seem to me to be little more
than a blend of "free-energy" style investor scams, and the old
"rain-making or your money back" scams that have run for hundreds of
years. There's no real science behind them, and the operations seem
shady at best. They simply claim success if it rains.
Here's some good coverage of criticism of the field from NatGeo
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2011/01/110118-abu-dhabi-desert-rain-cloud-seeding-controversy/
Mick West
contrailscience.com
On Tue, Dec 11, 2012 at 6:00 AM, Jim Lee <rez...@gmail.com> wrote:
> What are your thoughts on the work of Ionogenics, ATLANT, WeatherTec, and
> Aquiess?
>
> http://rezn8d.com/wxmod/cloud-ionization.html
>
>
>
> On Friday, December 7, 2012 12:37:26 PM UTC-5, JohnLatham wrote:
>>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "geoengineering" group.
> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/geoengineering/-/L4EnM6hBVkoJ.
>
> To post to this group, send email to geoengi...@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> geoengineerin...@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/geoengineering?hl=en.
than a blend of "free-energy" style investor scams, and the old
"rain-making or your money back" scams that have run for hundreds of
years. There's no real science behind them, and the operations seem
shady at best. They simply claim success if it rains.
Here's some good coverage of criticism of the field from NatGeo
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2011/01/110118-abu-dhabi-desert-rain-cloud-seeding-controversy/
Mick West
contrailscience.com
On Tue, Dec 11, 2012 at 6:00 AM, Jim Lee <rez...@gmail.com> wrote:
> What are your thoughts on the work of Ionogenics, ATLANT, WeatherTec, and
> Aquiess?
>
> http://rezn8d.com/wxmod/cloud-ionization.html
>
>
>
> On Friday, December 7, 2012 12:37:26 PM UTC-5, JohnLatham wrote:
>>
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "geoengineering" group.
> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/geoengineering/-/L4EnM6hBVkoJ.
>
> To post to this group, send email to geoengi...@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> geoengineerin...@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/geoengineering?hl=en.
Stephen Salter
Dec 12, 2012, 6:24:53 AM12/12/12
to Jim Lee, geoengi...@googlegroups.com, Andrew Lockley, John Latham, Alan Gadain
Jim Lee
I have long believed that in the right conditions a very small amount of aerosol can initiate rain and that the skill is in choosing the right conditions. I also believe that generations of UK meteorology students are taught that is does not work because of seeding tests done over Exmoor in 1952 which drowned 34 people. You will be able to get much more about commercial cloud seeding from Roelov Bruintjes roe...@ucar.edu
I have also had an interest in rain making and attach some materials on this subject.
I have visited the experimental station in Abu Dhabi and have some photographs of the equipment. I was intrigued by, but did not understand, the technology. It was not reassuring that the people doing it would not meet me. I would have thought that it should be quite easy to carry out convincing, controlled demonstrations to prove the matter beyond doubt, either way.
I am also attaching an unpublished note concerning the widely quoted Royal Society report on geoengineering. It mentions a way to identify places and seasons which allow tropospheric cloud albedo control to vary precipitation in both directions as well as general cooling. There is more about this in a thesis by Ben Parkes which you can download from http://homepages.see.leeds.ac.uk/~eebjp/thesis/
The world can be compared to a vehicle with free-castor wheels which is rolling down a hill with
increasing gradient. A few passengers are warning that there may be a cliff edge somewhere ahead.
Some are suggesting that there might just be time to design and fit brakes, steering and even a
reverse gear. Others advise that the slope ahead might level off and so brakes and steering would
be a waste of money. Some objectors complain that the passengers could never agree on the best
direction to steer. Some are close to claiming that God wants humanity to drive over the cliff edge
and that it is wrong to interfere with divine intentions.
We could also consider the climate system as a piano in which the spray regions are the keys, some
black some white, on which a wide number of pleasant (or less unpleasant) tunes could be played if
a pianist knew when and how hard to strike each key.
Stephen Salter
I have long believed that in the right conditions a very small amount of aerosol can initiate rain and that the skill is in choosing the right conditions. I also believe that generations of UK meteorology students are taught that is does not work because of seeding tests done over Exmoor in 1952 which drowned 34 people. You will be able to get much more about commercial cloud seeding from Roelov Bruintjes roe...@ucar.edu
I have also had an interest in rain making and attach some materials on this subject.
I have visited the experimental station in Abu Dhabi and have some photographs of the equipment. I was intrigued by, but did not understand, the technology. It was not reassuring that the people doing it would not meet me. I would have thought that it should be quite easy to carry out convincing, controlled demonstrations to prove the matter beyond doubt, either way.
I am also attaching an unpublished note concerning the widely quoted Royal Society report on geoengineering. It mentions a way to identify places and seasons which allow tropospheric cloud albedo control to vary precipitation in both directions as well as general cooling. There is more about this in a thesis by Ben Parkes which you can download from http://homepages.see.leeds.ac.uk/~eebjp/thesis/
The world can be compared to a vehicle with free-castor wheels which is rolling down a hill with
increasing gradient. A few passengers are warning that there may be a cliff edge somewhere ahead.
Some are suggesting that there might just be time to design and fit brakes, steering and even a
reverse gear. Others advise that the slope ahead might level off and so brakes and steering would
be a waste of money. Some objectors complain that the passengers could never agree on the best
direction to steer. Some are close to claiming that God wants humanity to drive over the cliff edge
and that it is wrong to interfere with divine intentions.
We could also consider the climate system as a piano in which the spray regions are the keys, some
black some white, on which a wide number of pleasant (or less unpleasant) tunes could be played if
a pianist knew when and how hard to strike each key.
Stephen Salter
Emeritus Professor of Engineering Design Institute for Energy Systems School of Engineering Mayfield Road University of Edinburgh EH9 3JL Scotland Tel +44 131 650 5704 Mobile 07795 203 195 www.see.ed.ac.uk/~shs
On 11/12/2012 14:00, Jim Lee wrote:
What are your thoughts on the work of Ionogenics, ATLANT, WeatherTec, and Aquiess?
On Friday, December 7, 2012 12:37:26 PM UTC-5, JohnLatham wrote:
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