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无神论的兴起

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Dongxu Wang

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Jun 1, 2013, 8:28:49 PM6/1/13
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以 理查德.道金斯 等为代表科学理性主义在西方掀起了无神论的热潮。在中国,方舟子等人也发起了一场深刻的思想启蒙运动于此呼应。科学和理性开始席卷世界,哲学徒和神棍们如丧考妣。任何受过基本科学训练的人不难看出神创论的种种谎言和荒诞不经。中国现在的问题,是科学和理性不过关,而不是教徒所谓的”缺乏信仰“。很遗憾,由于科学理性的缺乏,在中国一度被扑灭的宗教又有死灰复燃的趋势。


Dongxu Wang

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Jun 1, 2013, 10:26:10 PM6/1/13
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自从那个”理性讨论“的标签贴出来,我看这个群烦闷异常,几乎看不到任何思想的交锋和热点的讨论,几乎快沦落到了一个卖2手杂货商品专业店的地步,所以就找点话题活跃一下气氛。


2013/6/1 shaojie Yuan Shaojie <workhar...@gmail.com>
Dongxu,你我都是坚持科学的人,但是 何必把自己推向风口浪尖呢?


在 2013年6月1日下午8:28,Dongxu Wang <dxwan...@gmail.com> 写道:
> 以 理查德.道金斯
> 等为代表科学理性主义在西方掀起了无神论的热潮。在中国,方舟子等人也发起了一场深刻的思想启蒙运动于此呼应。科学和理性开始席卷世界,哲学徒和神棍们如丧考妣。任何受过基本科学训练的人不难看出神创论的种种谎言和荒诞不经。中国现在的问题,是科学和理性不过关,而不是教徒所谓的”缺乏信仰“。很遗憾,由于科学理性的缺乏,在中国一度被扑灭的宗教又有死灰复燃的趋势。
>
>
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shaojie Yuan Shaojie

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Jun 1, 2013, 10:42:08 PM6/1/13
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Dongxu,你我都是坚持科学的人,但是 何必把自己推向风口浪尖呢?

在 2013年6月1日下午8:28,Dongxu Wang <dxwan...@gmail.com> 写道:
> 以 理查德.道金斯
> 等为代表科学理性主义在西方掀起了无神论的热潮。在中国,方舟子等人也发起了一场深刻的思想启蒙运动于此呼应。科学和理性开始席卷世界,哲学徒和神棍们如丧考妣。任何受过基本科学训练的人不难看出神创论的种种谎言和荒诞不经。中国现在的问题,是科学和理性不过关,而不是教徒所谓的”缺乏信仰“。很遗憾,由于科学理性的缺乏,在中国一度被扑灭的宗教又有死灰复燃的趋势。
>
>

shaojie Yuan Shaojie

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Jun 1, 2013, 10:42:39 PM6/1/13
to dxwan...@gmail.com, FSU CSSA
咱可以重新开个群贝,可以非理性的,阿贝尔的

Dongxu Wang

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Jun 1, 2013, 11:36:15 PM6/1/13
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少杰兄认为需要另外开个群,那就去开了,召集够了足够的人数我支持,不过我看不出有什么必要,这里讨论不是蛮好的么?

至于说反对贴”理性讨论“的标签,我当然不是支持非理性。只不过,理性思维虽有准则,却无严格的边界,任何个人和组织无权对此进行认定,需要大众在长期的讨论和交锋当中形成对理性思维的界定。很遗憾,以前由于个别人的不理性,学生会对此抱着维稳的思路,对言论自由采取了怀疑和敌视的态度,不鼓励留学生对热点问题热烈探讨,在整个世界发生翻天覆地变化的今天,这个群如死水一般的沉寂。须知,言论自由不仅可以是政治观点的自由表达,也可以是和我们息息相关的法律,宗教,文化。一个死气沉沉的论坛潜在损害的是全体留学生。

PS:如果有人要对此回复,请不要私下回复。我的疑问是公开发布的,谁要回复就公开回复好了。

shaojie Yuan Shaojie

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Jun 2, 2013, 12:06:48 AM6/2/13
to Dongxu Wang, FSU CSSA
我随便说说 , 这里挺好的,阿贝尔群,你还不知道是什么意思吗?

lq z

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Jun 2, 2013, 3:46:00 AM6/2/13
to Dongxu Wang, FSU CSSA
Thanks for bringing this up. It is THE most important issue every human being need deal with, that is, THE TRUTH about whom we are, where we come from, where the universe came from. Why? Because how we view our origin determines how we are going to live our lives.

I can tell that you are a thinker because you care about the truth and want to know it. I was not. I believed everything I was taught in the textbooks of Politics and History in China from elementary school to college. As a good student as I could, I was not thinking. Not until I came to the States and met some Christians. They were not illiterate, old, or mentally weak as I thought (and was taught) religious people were. They were pursuing science as I was planning to do. Their genuine love, patience, and sound logic about science and their belief inspired my curiosity, which in the beginning just prompted me to try to prove they were wrong. Here I am, years later, overwhelmingly convinced by the evidence and my sinful nature, now a Christian and still doing my science.

Before I present my arguments, I want to present some basic beliefs in Christianity. I'm not defending any other religions, but only the true one.
1. We were created by God, and so was this universe. He loves you and has a plan for your life;
2. We have sinned against God and sin separates us from our Creator; because of sin, we are spiritually dead, don't know his plan for us, and are not interested in knowing Him;
3. Jesus Christ, God in flesh, came to this world, died on the cross and rose again three days later; through Him, our sins are forgiven;
4. One needs to trust Jesus Christ as his/her Savior and Lord to be saved; now we are reconciled with Him, know the truth, and desire to know and follow Him.

Our discussion will be limited in the first point, that is, the origin and existence of God, using logic and evidence, which both atheists and Christians can use.


Philosophical Naturalism

Philosophical naturalism gives us three possibilities on the existence of this universe:
a. The universe is merely an illusion;
b. The universe came from nothing;
c. The universe is eternal.

No evidence tells us you and I are just an illusion. Logic shows nothing could come out of nothing. That this universe has a beginning excludes it exists eternally.

Simple logic tells us when we see a house, we know there is a builder. When we see this universe, wonderfully made, we know there is a Creator. "Who made God?" You often hear children (sometimes adults too) ask. This universe has a beginning, however, God, by His nature, is eternal, so He is the uncaused First Cause. Otherwise, you can always ask, "Who made the one who made God?", which leads to a logic dead end.

Darwinian evolution

Where is the evidence for the transitions between different species? Fossils? Modern molecular biology shows us how complex biology is. In Darwin's time, people used to think a cell was very simple, nothing but a blob of jell. However, now we know there are hundreds of protein machinery, without any of which a cell can't function normally. How about the DNA? If a new part needed appear in a new species, where did the DNA get the information to make the proteins for the FUNCTIONAL new body part? How about butterfly? How can a caterpillar know what to do when it goes into a chrysalis?

Morality

Why are there some moral values common in all human being? Why do we applaud for heroes? Why do we feel sad when tragedies happen? Why do we feel angry when an innocent life is violated by murder, rape, abuse? Conscience, it is the word we use. Though it changes, we still have some sense deep in our heart knowing that some things are right, some wrong. I heard some explanation say these values help us evolve and survive. Not really convincing. Even it's true, it poses a bigger issue: everything is subjective and relative. If it is true, it doesn't make sense to have any law at all in our society - because it is only your opinion that this act is wrongdoing and I feel very good about doing it, actually I need to do it to release my anxiety so I can survive, actually I can prove that I have a DNA that makes me do it .... I hope you see the the logic of these arguments, which is actually illogic.

In Christianity, we know we are created by God in Him image. In another word, we are partakers of part of His nature including love, feeling, righteousness, logic. The conscience itself is a gift from God. That's why it is common in all human being. However, because we sin, many times we simply suppress the conscience in our heart to pursue our own pleasure.

The person Jesus Christ

Jesus Christ claimed he was God. In history, many people claimed they were God, but only he did so many wonders and the biggest of them was he rose again from dead three days after he died on the cross. You have to study Him if you really want to know the history and the truth.

His resurrection was not a fiction, nor an illusion of his followers. The most compelling evidence to me is the transformation of His disciples. All of them were scared and cowardly when He was arrested and crucified. However, later on they became so courageous in sharing the Good News of Jesus that most of them died a martyr's death. If they knew Jesus' resurrection was only a lie, their behavior was unthinkable and illogic. The truth is that only seeing the resurrected Jesus could give them so much strength to fearlessly proclaim their faith - because then they knew He was truly God, everything He taught them was truth, and one day they would rise again from death just like Him.

Truth-seekers, if you are willing to humble yourselves, you can find THE TRUTH today. Everything is in Him, Jesus Christ, who said He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life and no one comes to the Father, but through Him.




2013/6/1 Dongxu Wang <dxwan...@gmail.com>
以 理查德.道金斯 等为代表科学理性主义在西方掀起了无神论的热潮。在中国,方舟子等人也发起了一场深刻的思想启蒙运动于此呼应。科学和理性开始席卷世界,哲学徒和神棍们如丧考妣。任何受过基本科学训练的人不难看出神创论的种种谎言和荒诞不经。中国现在的问题,是科学和理性不过关,而不是教徒所谓的”缺乏信仰“。很遗憾,由于科学理性的缺乏,在中国一度被扑灭的宗教又有死灰复燃的趋势。


shaojie Yuan Shaojie

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Jun 2, 2013, 12:07:57 PM6/2/13
to lqz...@gmail.com, Dongxu Wang, FSU CSSA
They say , never try to convince people who keep opposite briefs or
ideas. I am not attacking other people's foundation of brief but
trying to provide some new blood in this free discussion.

I believe religious is about a brief whether you decide to choose or
not choose. If it can be proved, then we can do it as science.

I am a physicist, let me tell something from my point view

1, A very long story about Christianity has been told above. However,
no one would probably read them carefully.

2, The observation data in astronomy and cosmology indicate that our
universe started from a Big Bang roughly 13 billion years ago which is
much longer than the time scale in the holy book.

3, We human tend to believe we are chosen, especially religious
saints. While, I think all the creatures are fairly equal comparing to
the universe, Tiny but Existing!

4, Everything has a start and also an end. Eternal life would be quite
boring in my opinion. The freedom of mind is essence about my life.

5, Death is a puzzling question and mystery which has been with human
from the beginning of our existence. Honestly, Science can not solve
this problem yet. Religious claimed they already did with the motto
that "you believe me and you live forever with milk and happiness". In
my view it is like a treaty which is as the story in childhood, " you
give me a candy, i will be your friends" or the relationship between
those young girls and some government officials in China that "you
provide me better life, I would devote myself " (sorry for the bad
example here,forgive me! ). These treaties revel the greedy part of
human nature in some kind.

6, I do not know about stories of early christian. From the fast
development of "fa lun gong", religious are quite needed deep in
human, no matter right or wrong. However if mind control and brain
wash were involved in these process that would be pretty disgusting,
no different from today's North Korea and the over red time(culture
revolution) in China.

6, Love is good, no matter the relative love between young lovers or
general love between ourselves and the world. I do hope people become
Christian or reglious for love not for Eternal life.

7, When people realize their foundation of brief being argued , they
tends to be assaultive with the "sword of morality". I hope we could
all control ourselves and respect others. Let us enjoy real free
discussions here. Let us promise there would be no "medieval dark" and
Bruno would not be burnt at the stake again.In addition, if there is
a true super being, i do respect and he or she might appreciate my
analytical thinking.

SJ

2013/6/2 lq z <lqz...@gmail.com>:

Dongxu Wang

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Jun 2, 2013, 12:31:19 PM6/2/13
to lq z, FSU CSSA
我怀着极大的耐心读完了教徒这篇似乎早有预谋的为上帝辩护的臭脚布文章,没有时间一一详细反驳,随便拎出几个批一下,以正视听:

他/她 对自然科学的批判:


Philosophical naturalism gives us three possibilities on the existence of this universe:
a. The universe is merely an illusion;
b. The universe came from nothing;
c. The universe is eternal.


这个a 和 c 不知道从哪里弄来的,“The universe is merely an illusion”“The universe is eternal”,这个和主流科学的看法不符,请不要自己竖个稻草人,然后打的不亦乐乎。

至于说 “The universe came from nothing;” 最近物理学家 Lawrence Krauss写了一本书,“Sth. From nothing”,我没有读过,根据我的朴素理解,既然正反物质可以互相湮灭,未必这一过程就不能反转,从Nothing 产生正反物质。

退一步说,就算宇宙不能产生于无,它的起源也应该是一个简单的开始。用一个复杂性超过宇宙本身的上帝,本身在逻辑上就很荒唐,上帝比宇宙还复杂却不需要解释,典型的逃避主义。教徒看到了这一点,可惜没有提出合理的处理。合理的处理是,把上帝从宇宙的创生中驱逐出去。

再来看一段:


Simple logic tells us when we see a house, we know there is a builder. When we see this universe, wonderfully made, we know there is a Creator. "Who made God?" You often hear children (sometimes adults too) ask. This universe has a beginning, however, God, by His nature, is eternal, so He is the uncaused First Cause.


他从“房子需要有建造者”逻辑出发,推出宇宙需要有个创建者(即使有,我也不知道 怎么就是他心中的那个上帝)。但是当别人以同样的逻辑问他上帝是怎么来的,教徒引用了“上帝的本质”,他的本质就是不需要解释。不愧是神的子民,用的逻辑也是神的逻辑。上帝的存在性还没有论证出来,就用了“他的本质”推出 他不需要论证,还有比这更荒唐的么?按照这个章法,人人都可宣称自己是上帝了。——至于证据?  “根据上帝的本质,这不需要解释”。

至于他对进化论的攻击,这方面我不是专家,不过他同样在呓语,不知所明。询问主流的科学家,进化论是无可辩驳的事实,有大量的科学证据。

至于道德产生的原因,既然进化能让我们产生功能相同的形体,产生一个普遍的道德准则也不难理解。

最后一部分看起来最荒唐,不过总算在论证上帝的存在性了。证据是因为上帝的复活,给了门徒勇气,让他们从贪生怕死的鼠辈变成了慷慨就义的烈士。首先,这段故事的真实性就非常可疑,(根据那本谎言叠出的圣经?),其次,就算真实这也证明不了Jesus就是宇宙的真神,慷慨就义的门徒多了去了,何止基督一家?法轮功徒孙还自焚呢,岂不比基督徒更壮烈?

综上所述,大家可以看到教徒的逻辑:被人抓到无可辩驳的短柄就声称“不需要解释”,他的“本质是唯一的”,但是没有证据又怎么能说服教众呢?于是在能胡搅的地方又不遗余力的胡搅,尽管提出的论据不值一驳。

对这种Truth,敬而远之吧。Truth需要证据,不是在脑门上贴个Truth的标签,就代表Truth了。

Dongxu Wang

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Jun 2, 2013, 12:57:10 PM6/2/13
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我对宗教的质疑是公开的,谁要回复就公开回复。


On Sun, Jun 2, 2013 at 12:48 PM, dy42010 <dy4...@gmail.com> wrote:
    现代科学的进步仍然不能够解释所有宇宙的奥秘,这也为神学提供了存在的空间。科学解释不到的就是迷信存在的理由。从这个意义上讲,上帝将长久地存在于人们的意识中,这也是不以人的意志为转移的。
    你经历了长期的科学思维训练,以你科学的思维方法去观察神学,当然会觉得对方很可笑。但说不定人家用的根本就不是你这套语言,会不会觉得任何事都用所谓的科学来解释是不是也很可笑?
    不要对神学义愤填膺,也不要轻易去否定它。其实上帝是不是客观存在并不重要,信仰才是最重要的。你不信上帝,你准备信什么?马克思主义还是真主?
2013-06-03

dy42010

发件人:Dongxu Wang <dxwan...@gmail.com>
发送时间:2013-06-03 00:31
主题:Re: [CSSA] 无神论的兴起
收件人:"lq z"<lqz...@gmail.com>,"FSU CSSA"<FSU-...@googlegroups.com>
抄送:

xiaohan dong

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Jun 2, 2013, 12:59:31 PM6/2/13
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亲爱的同学,看在大家都在一个group里的份上,看在大家都是同胞的份上,拜托别再发这种贴了,看着烦啊~非常感谢非常感谢~

Dongxu Wang

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Jun 2, 2013, 1:01:08 PM6/2/13
to xiaohan dong, FSU CSSA
你可以屏蔽掉这个邮件的更新嘛


2013/6/2 xiaohan dong <dongxia...@gmail.com>
亲爱的同学,看在大家都在一个group里的份上,看在大家都是同胞的份上,拜托别再发这种贴了,看着烦啊~非常感谢非常感谢~

Scott Keller

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Jun 2, 2013, 4:32:41 PM6/2/13
to workhar...@gmail.com, lqz...@gmail.com, Dongxu Wang, FSU CSSA
Hi everyone,

This is an interesting discussion. I appreciate the civil tone with which it is conducted. So often when you discuss religious beliefs, one person or other feels their beliefs are being attacked and the discussion turns sour.

I often wonder why Chinese people become Christian, since the number of cultures, languages and time periods that separate the Bible from a modern day Chinese person are immense!

I think you have to stipulate that there is much knowledge that we, as humans, have not acquired yet, and other knowledge which may be impossible for us to acquire (if for no other reason than our size). As we look at smaller and smaller particles, there is a limit to what we can see. In turn, as we develop the most powerful telescopes, they still only allow us to see as far as we can given our size. Therefore, we cannot comprehend what the true nature of reality is. Some people are at peace with this ambiguity, but others feel they must have an answer for everything, or they cannot live in peace. For me, I think it is much healthier to accept that we cannot know some things, rather than posit a religious belief to cover those things we don't know.

In Western culture, the Greeks and the Romans had many gods, and most Christians look at their beliefs and think they were primitive fools to have believed in these gods. But, were they not doing exactly what modern day Christians are doing? At that time, it was not known that the earth circled the sun, or even what the sun was. Because this was part of reality that was not known, the Greeks and Romans created a god (Apollo in Greek mythology, who pulled the sun across the sky with a chariot). In Chinese mythology, you can think of the archer, HouYi, shooting the other suns from the sky.

In any case, once humans developed the instruments to be able to deduce the nature of the solar system, science encroached on religious belief and replaced what was unknown with knowledge. This has happened continuously over time, gradually pushing religion back as knowledge fills in the gaps in our understanding.

My question, to the religious, is why you feel the need to fill in the lack of knowledge with a belief (or faith) in something that is almost certainly not true. If you look at the number of religions around the world, for instance, Christianity and Hinduism. You cannot say that both of them can be correct. Yet, each of them must provide something (perhaps mental comfort?) for those who believe them.

The biggest problem I see with religion is that some people become zealous and think that anything which challenges the tenets of the religion should be attacked. You can see this now in all of the fanatics who bomb places in the name of Islam (I am not saying that they practice Islam correctly, only that they take their actions in its name). You can also see it throughout the history of Christianity, with the Crusades (where they thought it was perfectly OK to go kill Muslims if they would not convert to Christianity), down to today, where you can see many groups that feel their religion is so important to them that they would go to war over it.

I have respected Eastern religions, such as Buddhism, because they have seemed to me to be more accommodating of others' beliefs. In China, it seems to me, there is an overriding belief system that combines the teachings of Kongzi, Laozi, and the Buddha (Fo). If there is something worthwhile in another religion, they will adopt it and adapt it to their own beliefs. I would like to hear from you on this, as this is my impression, but I am an outsider to Chinese and Eastern culture and can only understand so well.

Another thing which I found really strange is the civil unrest between two groups of Buddhists in Thailand, since I have not heard of Buddhists being violent people. I don't know how to reconcile that with my views.

To conclude, I'm sure you can figure out how I view the world, but that's not important. To me, we should respect each other, the world we live in and the mysteries which nature still has for us. I think it is cool that we are able to be conscious of our existence and be able to discuss it with each other.

Thanks,

Scott (Keller)

Dongxu Wang

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Jun 2, 2013, 7:03:44 PM6/2/13
to Scott Keller, FSU CSSA
不可知论者,认为人类的认识能力有局限。但是也不认为人类由于存在未知,就应该信一个莫名其妙的神。

关于宗教信仰自由的问题,无神论者当然尊重个人信仰。个人信仰有不受政治迫害的权利,但是没有因为愚昧而免于批评的权利。

Scott Keller

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Jun 2, 2013, 10:48:38 PM6/2/13
to Dongxu Wang, FSU CSSA
对不起。我读的中文不好。请写英文所以我会明白。谢谢。

DREAM202

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Jun 2, 2013, 10:51:57 PM6/2/13
to fsu-...@googlegroups.com, lqz...@gmail.com, Dongxu Wang, FSU CSSA
" Love is good, no matter the relative love between young lovers or 
general love between ourselves and the world. I do hope people become 
Christian or reglious for love not for Eternal life. "
这个说的好。 我只是奇怪,为什么基督信仰在西方发源 而不是从东方发源。 既然上帝爱所有的世人,为什么不能在所有的地方同时有一个相同或近似相同教义的宗教?难道看不上我们的祖先?他们死后都去了哪了,有没有上天堂?如果不信基督,是不是就不能上天堂? 而且现在各种因为信仰才生的地区冲突。 如果开始大家都有同样的信仰,那不很多问题都没了。随便说说。

我觉得我其实挺想被说服能信仰基督的。我真的想有一个可以任何时候都可以信赖的真理或者神。那样会很幸福。 可是每次遇到的人,都不能回答我的一些如上很简单的问题。然道真的是不被chosen? 希望有这样的同志出来教育我们一下。如果能回答这样一些问题, 要比去参加一些团聚的活动更有效。(不用科学的论述,哪怕是个人的一个经历,我也信)。

再一个简单的问题,你每天是怎么感受到神的存在的? 就一个简单的例子就行。

Dongxu Wang

unread,
Jun 2, 2013, 11:48:36 PM6/2/13
to Scott Keller, FSU CSSA
 You think our world can not be known. But this is not a reason we should beilieve in some sort of God.

About freedom of religion, I think people have the right to choose religion and be free of political surpression, but have no right being free of critics because of being stupid.

Sorry about my bad English.

dream2046

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Jun 3, 2013, 12:34:10 AM6/3/13
to fsu-...@googlegroups.com, Scott Keller, FSU CSSA
我去,你本来不是要理性讨论的吗?怎么一会一个人身攻击,什么臭裹脚布,一会一个愚昧,又来个什么stupid,动不动就要占领道德制高点,来批评批评别人,大哥,一把年纪了,追小妹子不是在群里展示你的所谓的“雄才大论”,小女生哪有时间在群里看你这些帖子,真想展现你的charming,买辆mustang,多在tally彪几圈,比你这个实在多了。

Dongxu Wang

unread,
Jun 3, 2013, 1:15:09 AM6/3/13
to xccp...@gmail.com, FSU CSSA
臭脚布,只是指出那篇文章又臭又长而已,而且我给了足够的理由,不认为这是人身攻击。

你要认为言辞过火了,我表示无能为力,这也并不是主旨。欢迎你把我写的东西定性为“臭脚布”或者别的什么,并给出详细的理由论证,尽量别放空炮,这样最容易走火。

superman

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Jun 3, 2013, 2:00:32 AM6/3/13
to fsu-...@googlegroups.com, FSU CSSA
Hi, Dongxu,
我认为你讨论问题本身没有问题,但是希望你能注意措辞。类似臭脚布,stupid一类的措辞的确是非常offensive的。我本人不是教徒,但是希望与你分享我对宗教的观点。

1. 无论宗教还是无神论都是世界观的一种,选择何种世界观并无妨碍,因为世界本身就是多元化的,不同的地区有不同的文化和宗教,甚至产生冲突与交融都是可能的。人类的好奇心产生对世界的探索欲望,推动了科学和宗教的产生。各个国家地区产生的不同宗教,恰恰反映了全世界人民祖先共有的好奇心。姑且不论宗教的论述是否是真理,但是把其来源归于好奇心与探索,要比说成stupid更为合理。科学也有其本身的局限性,但是并不能因为科学界的前辈由于好奇和探索得出一些落后于我们当今科学界的结论就说这些前人的科学家是愚蠢,是同样的道理。

2. 你提到了国内的缺乏信仰,但是你对这个信仰的理解稍微狭隘。信仰并非单只宗教信仰,也包括道德信仰,人生信仰,就像你信仰理性和科学一样。所谓“缺乏信仰”,更多的是指很多人缺乏支持自己的一种人生信念,精神追求,和对是非判断的准则。

3. 中国和西方的宗教有很大不同。东方的大多数国家是polytheism,多神论。但是西方多是monotheism,比如基督教和伊斯兰教,信仰多个神会被认为大逆不道的罪恶。这个和宗教在历史的支配力是有关的。西方的宗教一直比较dominant,甚至教皇的权力一度大于国王。但是在中国历史上,皇权永远是至高无上的,皇帝为“天子”,也就是皇帝变成了上帝和活神仙。中国是佛教,道教,儒家思想并存的国家。虽然儒家是一种哲学而非宗教。中国的僧侣们总是避世,或者作为世俗生活的点缀,从来不像西方的教堂一样一直贯穿主流社会的生活。我认为中国社会许多道德标准的下降跟宗教的历史有关。比如,西方信奉一个超越于人类的神,并且认为他掌管一切,即使国王也不能为所欲为,这个对人们的行为和道德观念起到很好的约束作用。而中国历史上的皇帝为天子的观点,事实是把一个普通人给神话了,所以一个普通人可以掌管一切的时候,出现为所欲为和道德下降的情况也就不可避免了。

4. 宗教是否愚蠢?答案是否定的。西方宗教是西方很多艺术的起源,包括古典音乐,绘画,诗歌等等。宗教音乐为最早的音乐理论和记谱方法提供发展实践的场所,教堂的绘画精美绝伦,比如米开朗基罗在梵蒂冈教堂的《创世纪》,许多经文也是如诗般美丽的语句。宗教饱含了人类早期对世界的探索和想象。宗教不一定是真的,但却传达了善和美。比如,一个儿童对一个童话故事或者圣诞老人充满兴致的时候,你可以说他或者她是愚蠢的吗?

5. 宗教确实带来的许多冲突和迫害,所以尊重和理解是非常重要的。比如历史上伊斯兰教和基督教的冲入,以及当今社会西方国家与中东国家的冲突,都与宗教脱不了干系。甚至我们身处的美国,也是当年新教徒为了逃避迫害而建立的国家。无神论也卷入这种冲突,比如文革时期的中国,批林批孔,大肆毁坏文物和庙宇,都是对人类文化的毁灭性的破坏。

6. 关于不可知论。 人类的对宇宙的探索是无尽的,所以我们可以更宽泛的理解上帝和神。在人类有限的目光所及范围内,我们可以观察与解释。但是很多问题我们并未解决。承认这种人类的局限性是一种诚实与理性,而非不可知论。不可知论是认为世界是无法理解而只能感知的。我本人认为,会有一种超越人类与宇宙本身的看不见的超级力量的存在,也许我们可以认为这就是一种上帝,或者神。比如很多科学家也在研究,宇宙是否是有目的性的,还是人类和生命的产生仅仅是一种巧合(这未免太令人失望),如果你相信前者,那么这个看不见的力量就是存在的。

希望您在对世界探索的道路上,做出更多的发现。

jin liu

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Jun 3, 2013, 5:39:44 AM6/3/13
to skel...@gmail.com, FSU-...@googlegroups.com
Hi,  Scott Keller
 
        I appreciate you view and attitude to different religions all round the world.  I used to see and meet God before in the heaven,  I am not a religious person but who believe in fact and like to deal with things with scientific attitude .  I have been considerating about a long long time to have a  lecture to explain what the universe  looks like and God's personality and what he told me. I explain to students in FSU before and but each time it took me about 6 hours, so have a lecture maybe a good idea.  I know it sounds crazy that someone has seen God, but it's true many people see him, but not so many people dare to say they have seen God. I personally guess they don't want people think they have mental problem.  Just  like you said  humans only know little about the world God created.  How God created the world only the people saw him know. I guess the lecture will be fun and surprise people. It can be accommodating of deferent religious beliefs around world and reconcile zealous religious people a little bit.
 
Jin
From: Scott Keller <skel...@gmail.com>
To: Dongxu Wang <dxwan...@gmail.com>
Cc: FSU CSSA <FSU-...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 2, 2013 10:48 PM
Subject: Re: [CSSA] 无神论的兴起

对不起。我读的中文不好。请写英文所以我会明白。谢谢。



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Dongxu Wang

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Jun 4, 2013, 2:39:25 PM6/4/13
to jingch...@gmail.com, FSU CSSA
我确实采取了攻击性的措辞,但是和基督教义的攻击性相比,实在不值一提。对比那个动不动就诅咒人妻子兄弟儿女,哪天不爽就要灭灭一个城市,国家甚至全人类的大神耶和华,几个词语实在算不了什么。对于如此残暴的基督教义安然处之,对几个攻击性措词却大惊小怪,实在让人费解。既然你和我分享了你的宗教观点,下面就是我对你分享的回应。

1. 关于宗教起源的问题。某些宗教起源有人类探索真理的好奇心成分,这个或许和科学有共同之处。但是,我以为,不可把宗教和科学相提并论。应该指出,科学是人类认识世界唯一的可靠方法:那就是逻辑和实验,也就是讲证据。科学的认识有历史的局限性,可能会出错;但是,这和 根本不讲事实与逻辑的宗教有根本区别;另外,很多宗教的产生并不是人类探索自然的好奇心,而是骗子精心罗织的谎言;这在当今社会也是屡见不鲜的。谎言百出的圣经已经表明耶和华大神乃是骗子出身:童女生子,变水为酒,水上行走,死而复活。。。

2和3是同一个问题,就是中国现在需要不需要宗教信仰。你要说中国缺乏的是 道德信仰,人生信仰,基本认同,其实我认为用另外一个词更好,就是诚信体系;但中国绝不是缺乏宗教信仰,宗教信仰也无助于诚信体系的建立。宗教本身就不为求真,指望宗教能解决中国的缺乏诚信的问题,南辕北辙。信一个超越全体人类的神,于是众生平等了,听起来比较美妙;可惜,神是需要代言人的。无论善和美采取任何标准,首先还是要求真。离开事实,哪怕半步,骗子就会乘虚而入。为了建立诚信体系引入一个虚假的偶像,这种做法是可怕的,因为一旦作假被揭穿,会引发更大的道德和诚信危机。美国诚信体系的建立在于确定了政教分离等一系列对宗教打压的政策,在政教一体时代政治黑暗到了什么程度,大家心知肚明。

4是关于宗教是否愚昧的问题,我的答案是肯定的。和愚昧相对立的是科学与理性。宗教作为一种文化,当然有一定可取之处,可惜和科学理性实在搭不上边,甚至背道而驰。我不清楚你怎么能把童话故事和宗教信仰联系到一块。儿童天真烂漫的童心和宗教信仰还是要区分的。教徒喜欢告诉孩子:如果不信上帝就要下地狱,这当然就是愚昧。

5关于宗教迫害和冲突。伊斯兰和基督的冲突,无疑是宗教排外性的一个直接结果,你举了更多的例子,我就不一一重复,这都说明了宗教非理性。但是,看你的言辞,似乎把中国文革中的问题归结为不信神,这个没有证据。文革的问题是多方面的,譬如法制缺失,个人权力过大,和信神不信神没有关系。就像韩国的强大和吃泡菜没有关系一样。

6关于不可知论,不做太多评价。人类认识目前有限,但是不能因为有未知的东西就引入一个莫名其妙,不需解释的上帝,这实际上是逃避主义。更不能让这个上帝干预指导我们的生活,有个朋友的奶奶因为信基督神教,得了癌症不去治疗,在家祈祷,可悲。

在探索和发现的路上,共勉。


2013/6/3 superman <jingch...@gmail.com>

jin liu

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Jun 5, 2013, 8:45:38 PM6/5/13
to dxwan...@gmail.com, jingch...@gmail.com, FSU CSSA
 Dongxu,你好
  
         我很欣赏你的实话实说的性格和敢在 众人面前真实地说出自己的想法。我在20几年前由于偶然和强烈的好奇心就亲自见过上帝。这个宇宙只有一个神,所有的东西都是他造的,但不是我们想象的造法。其实,自古以来就没有宗教的,只是象我这样的见过上帝的人回到地球后和大家讲解上帝的事情,但是宇宙里的物理知识远不是我们现在科学了解到的。我们人类只了解一点点小东西。宗教书籍把这些见过上帝的人的说法记录下来,本是一本叙事书籍。但是由于地球上的人没有宇宙里的物理知识,就用地球上见到的知识去理解宇宙里的东西,不相信就发生了。就象蚕没有办法说服蚕蛹和飞蛾,他是蚕变来的一样。因为蚕蛹和飞蛾没有看到过这个过程。人就会相信,是吧。因为你见过,眼见为实。你还能详细地描述呢,是吧? 我就是这个人,见过上帝,是上帝的儿子(你也是,所有人都是),所以能详细地描述上帝的很多东西和细节。宗教是在一本见过上帝的人写下的,不太好理解的书的基础上,被没见过上帝,也没有宇宙知识,只有地球知识的人(宗教人士,如牧师等),用地球知识去解释宇宙后导致的结果。我是活着的见过上帝的人,有两方面的知识(宇宙和地球),也是亲身经历,当然就能比宗教人士解释得更清楚。讲这需要很长时间(大约6-10小时)我懒,不想写。要是能周末和大家在大厅里作一个长时间的交流讨论就效率高,更多感兴趣的同学和朋友都能同时分享。不知大家是否有兴趣,我也想把这经历和大家分享,对开拓我们视野和增加知识宽度和深度,以及培养怎样预知,推理未知但存在物理规律很有好处,也会帮助大家以后 的研究工作。因为我们研究的对象就是了解上帝的创造的东西。我也会告诉大家当今的很多未解奥秘是怎么回事,让大家在了解上帝后 have some fun。不希望(有神论和无神论的)狂热分子参加,只接受文明的从平静的   to    打破砂锅问到底的人。
 
 
 
liu Jin
From: Dongxu Wang <dxwan...@gmail.com>
To: jingch...@gmail.com; FSU CSSA <FSU-...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 4, 2013 2:39 PM
Subject: Re: [CSSA] Re: 无神论的兴起

我确实采取了攻击性的措辞,但是和基督教义的攻击性相比,实在不值一提。对比那个动不动就诅咒人妻子兄弟儿女,哪天不爽就要灭灭一个城市,国家甚至全人类的大神耶和华,几个词语实在算不了什么。对于如此残暴的基督教义安然处之,对几个攻击性措词却大惊小怪,实在让人费解。既然你和我分享了你的宗教观点,下面就是我对你分享的回应。

1. 关于宗教起源的问题。某些宗教起源有人类探索真理的好奇心成分,这个或许和科学有共同之处。但是,我以为,不可把宗教和科学相提并论。应该指出,科学是人类认识世界唯一的可靠方法:那就是逻辑和实验,也就是讲证据。科学的认识有历史的局限性,可能会出错;但是,这和 根本不讲事实与逻辑的宗教有根本区别;另外,很多宗教的产生并不是人类探索自然的好奇心,而是骗子精心罗织的谎言;这在当今社会也是屡见不鲜的。谎言百出的圣经已经表明耶和华大神乃是骗子出身:童女生子,变水为酒,水上行走,死而复活。。。

2和3是同一个问题,就是中国现在需要不需要宗教信仰。你要说中国缺乏的是 道德信仰,人生信仰,基本认同,其实我认为用另外一个词更好,就是诚信体系;但中国绝不是缺乏宗教信仰,宗教信仰也无助于诚信体系的建立。宗教本身就不为求真,指望宗教能解决中国的缺乏诚信的问题,南辕北辙。信一个超越全体人类的神,于是众生平等了,听起来比较美妙;可惜,神是需要代言人的。无论善和美采取任何标准,首先还是要求真。离开事实,哪怕半步,骗子就会乘虚而入。为了建立诚信体系引入一个虚假的偶像,这种做法是可怕的,因为一旦作假被揭穿,会引发更大的道德和诚信危机。美国诚信体系的建立在于确定了政教分离等一系列对宗教打压的政策,在政教一体时代政治黑暗到了什么程度,大家心知肚明。

4是关于宗教是否愚昧的问题,我的答案是肯定的。和愚昧相对立的是科学与理性。宗教作为一种文化,当然有一定可取之处,可惜和科学理性实在搭不上边,甚至背道而驰。我不清楚你怎么能把童话故事和宗教信仰联系到一块。儿童天真烂漫的童心和宗教信仰还是要区分的。教徒喜欢告诉孩子:如果不信上帝就要下地狱,这当然就是愚昧。

5关于宗教迫害和冲突。伊斯兰和基督的冲突,无疑是宗教排外性的一个直接结果,你举了更多的例子,我就不一一重复,这都说明了宗教非理性。但是,看你的言辞,似乎把中国文革中的问题归结为不信神,这个没有证据。文革的问题是多方面的,譬如法制缺失,个人权力过大,和信神不信神没有关系。就像韩国的强大和吃泡菜没有关系一样。

6关于不可知论,不做太多评价。人类认识目前有限,但是不能因为有未知的东西就引入一个莫名其妙,不需解释的上帝,这实际上是逃避主义。更不能让这个上帝干预指导我们的生活,有个朋友的奶奶因为信基督神教,得了癌症不去治疗,在家祈祷,可悲。

在探索和发现的路上,共勉。


2013/6/3 superman <jingch...@gmail.com>
Hi, Dongxu,
我认为你讨论问题本身没有问题,但是希望你能注意措辞。类似臭脚布,stupid一类的措辞的确是非常offensive的。我本人不是教徒,但是希望与你分享我对宗教的观点。

1. 无论宗教还是无神论都是世界观的一种,选择何种世界观并无妨碍,因为世界本身就是多元化的,不同的地区有不同的文化和宗教,甚至产生冲突与交融都是可能的。人类的好奇心产生对世界的探索欲望,推动了科学和宗教的产生。各个国家地区产生的不同宗教,恰恰反映了全世界人民祖先共有的好奇心。姑且不论宗教的论述是否是真理,但是把其来源归于好奇心与探索,要比说成stupid更为合理。科学也有其本身的局限性,但是并不能因为科学界的前辈由于好奇和探索得出一些落后于我们当今科学界的结论就说这些前人的科学家是愚蠢,是同样的道理。

2. 你提到了国内的缺乏信仰,但是你对这个信仰的理解稍微狭隘。信仰并非单只宗教信仰,也包括道德信仰,人生信仰,就像你信仰理性和科学一样。所谓“缺乏信仰”,更多的是指很多人缺乏支持自己的一种人生信念,精神追求,和对是非判断的准则。

3. 中国和西方的宗教有很大不同。东方的大多数国家是polytheism,多神论。但是西方多是monotheism,比如基督教和伊斯兰教,信仰多个神会被认为大逆不道的罪恶。这个和宗教在历史的支配力是有关的。西方的宗教一直比较dominant,甚至教皇的权力一度大于国王。但是在中国历史上,皇权永远是至高无上的,皇帝为“天子”,也就是皇帝变成了上帝和活神仙。中国是佛教,道教,儒家思想并存的国家。虽然儒家是一种哲学而非宗教。中国的僧侣们总是避世,或者作为世俗生活的点缀,从来不像西方的教堂一样一直贯穿主流社会的生活。我认为中国社会许多道德标准的下降跟宗教的历史有关。比如,西方信奉一个超越于人类的神,并且认为他掌管一切,即使国王也不能为所欲为,这个对人们的行为和道德观念起到很好的约束作用。而 中国历史上的皇帝为天子的观点,事实是把一个普通人给神话了,所以一个普通人可以掌管一切的时候,出现为所欲为和道德下降的情况也就不可避免了。

4. 宗教是否愚蠢?答案是否定的。西方宗教是西方很多艺术的起源,包括古典音乐,绘画,诗歌等等。宗教音乐为最早的音乐理论和记谱方法提供发展实践的场所,教堂的绘画精美绝伦,比如米开朗基罗在梵蒂冈教堂的《创世纪》,许多经文也是如诗般美丽的语句。宗教饱含了人类早期对世界的探索和想象。宗教不一定是真的,但却传达了善和美。比如,一个儿童对一个童话故事或者圣诞老人充满兴致的时候,你可以说他或者她是愚蠢的吗?

5. 宗教确实带来的许多冲突和迫害,所以尊重和理解是非常重要的。比如历史上伊斯兰教和基督教的冲入,以及当今社会西方国家与中东国家的冲突,都与宗教脱不了干系。甚至我们身处的美国,也是当年新教徒为了逃避迫害而建立的国家。无神论也卷入这种冲突,比如文革时期的中国,批林批孔,大肆毁坏文物和庙宇,都是对人类文化的毁灭性的破坏。

6. 关于不可知论。 人类的对宇宙的探索是无尽的,所以我们可以更宽泛的理解上帝和神。在人类有限的目光所及范围内,我们可以观察与解释。但是很多问题我们并未解决。承认这种人类的局限性是一种诚实与理性,而非不可知论。不可知论是认为世界是无法理解而只能感知的。我本人认为,会有一种超越人类与宇宙本身的看不见的超级力量的存在,也许我们可以认为这就是一种上帝,或者神。比如很多科学家也在研究,宇宙是否是有目的性的,还是人类和生命的产生仅仅是一种巧合(这未免太令人失望),如果你相信前者,那么这个看不见的力量就是存在的。

希望您在对世界探索的道路上,做出更多的发现。


On Saturday, June 1, 2013 8:28:49 PM UTC-4, Dongxu Wang wrote:
以 理查德.道金斯 等为代表科学理性主义在西方掀起了无神论的热潮。在中国,方舟子等人也发起了一场深刻的思想启蒙运动于此呼应。科学和理性开始席卷世界,哲学徒和神棍们如丧考妣。任何受过基本科学训练的人不难看出神创论的种种谎言和荒诞不经。中国现在的问题,是科学和理性不过关,而不是教徒所谓的”缺乏信仰“。很遗憾,由于科学理性的缺乏,在中国一度被扑灭的宗教又有死灰复燃的趋势。


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Dongxu Wang

unread,
Jun 6, 2013, 3:20:41 PM6/6/13
to jin liu, FSU CSSA
Liu Jin,你好!

非常欢迎你加入我们这个讨论帖,也欢迎你用理性的态度和我们讨论上帝的存在性。

读了你的帖子之后,有些地方尽管比较费解,我能明显感到我们之间的分歧很大,主要分歧是:我不太相信你见过上帝。不太清楚你是如何获得了宇宙知识,也不太清楚所谓的“宇宙知识”和“地球知识”之间的联系和区别。其次,我也不知道你怎么确定你见过的那个上帝就是圣经中的那个上帝。分歧是存在的,但是并不妨碍我们进行探讨。但探讨需要一定前提假设,其实任何对话都需要。我能够认同的前提是逻辑和实验。说实话,你见过上帝并且认识他的可能性是存在的,尽管微乎其微。但是,个人的经历是不能作为科学证据的,除非你的个人经历能够复制,能够在别人身上重复出来。以前听伪神棍们谈的太多了,耳朵有点出茧了。别误会,我认为你是个虔诚的教徒。

但我们之间仍有共同的地方。按照你的说法,“宗教人士,如牧师等” 其实只有地球知识,不了解上帝,也解释不清楚上帝,这一点我非常认同。其实呢,我一介布衣,也没有什么影响,我的看法本无关紧要。但是“宗教人士”整天成 群结队,和人传经布道,他们的看法一旦出了问题,哪怕很小,也会很严重。所以我觉得呢,你更应该经常给宗教人士上上课,告诉他们,真正的上帝是什么样的,让他们别整天 按照自己的理解胡乱解释,误人子弟。改变我的看法则是次要的。你说呢?

Dongxu Wang


2013/6/5 jin liu <liu3...@yahoo.com>

Apple Ke

unread,
Jun 6, 2013, 9:24:04 PM6/6/13
to dxwan...@gmail.com, jin liu, FSU CSSA
想听。先报个名!


2013/6/6 Dongxu Wang <dxwan...@gmail.com>

OX

unread,
Jun 6, 2013, 11:10:04 PM6/6/13
to keap...@gmail.com, dxwan...@gmail.com, jin liu, FSU CSSA
现在人都疯了吗?我看是,我自己也疯了

发件人: Apple Ke <keap...@gmail.com>
收件人: dxwan...@gmail.com
抄送: jin liu <liu3...@yahoo.com>; FSU CSSA <FSU-...@googlegroups.com>
发送日期: 2013年6月6日, 星期四, 9:24 下午
主题: Re: [CSSA] Re: 无神论的兴起

想听。先报个名!


2013/6/6 Dongxu Wang <dxwan...@gmail.com>
Liu Jin,你好!

非常欢迎你加入我们这个讨论帖,也欢迎你用理性的态度和我们讨论上帝的存在性。

读了你的帖子之后,有些地方尽管比较费解,我能明显感到我们之间的分歧很大,主要分歧是:我不太相信你见过上帝。不太清楚你是如何获得了宇宙知识,也不太清楚所谓的“宇宙知识”和“地球知识”之间的联系和区别。其次,我也不知道你怎么确定你见过的那个上帝就是圣经中的那个上帝。分歧是存在的,但是并不妨碍我们进行探讨。但探讨需要一定前提假设,其实任何对话都需要。我能够认同的前提是逻辑和实验。说实话,你见过上帝并且认识他的可能性是存在的,尽管微乎其微。但是,个人的经历是不能作为科学证据的,除非你的个人经历能够复制,能够在别人身上重复出来。以前听伪神棍们谈的太多了 ,耳朵有点出茧了。别误会,我认为你是个虔诚的教徒。

但我们之间仍有共同的地方。按照你的说法,“宗教人士,如牧师等” 其实只有地球知识,不了解上帝,也解释不清楚上帝,这一点我非常认同。其实呢,我一介布衣,也没有什么影响,我的看法本无关紧要。但是“宗教人士”整天成群结队,和人传经布道,他们的看法一旦出了问题,哪怕很小,也会很严重。所以我觉得呢,你更应该经常给宗教人士上上课,告诉他们,真正的上帝是什么样的,让他们别整天按照自己的理解胡乱解释,误人子弟。改变我的看法则是次要的。你说呢?

Dongxu Wang



2013/6/5 jin liu <liu3...@yahoo.com>
 Dongxu,你好
  
         我很欣赏你的实话实说的性格和敢在 众人面前真实地说出自己的想法。我在20几年前由于偶然和强烈的好奇心就亲自见过上帝。这个宇宙只有一个神,所有的东西都是他造的,但不是我们想象的造法。其实,自古以来就没有宗教的,只是象我这样的见过上帝的人回到地球后和大家讲解上帝的事情,但是宇宙里的物理知识远不是我们现在科学了解到的。我们人类只了解一点点小东西。宗教书籍把这些见过上帝的人的说法记录下来,本是一本叙事书籍。但是由于地球上的人没有宇宙里的物理知识,就用地球上见到的知识去理解宇宙里的东西,不相信就发生了。就象蚕没有办法说服蚕蛹和飞蛾,他是蚕变来的一样。因为蚕蛹和飞蛾没有看到过这个过程。人就会相信,是吧。因为你见过,眼见为实。你还能详细地描述呢,是吧? 我就是这个人,见过上帝,是上帝的儿子(你也是,所有人都是),所以能详细地描述上帝的很多东西和细节。宗教是在一本见过上帝的人写下的,不太好理解的书的基础上,被没见过上帝,也没有宇宙知识,只有地球知识的人(宗教人士,如牧师等),用地球知识去解释宇宙后导致的结果。我是活着的见过上帝的人,有两方面的知识(宇宙和地球),也是亲身经历,当然就能比宗教人士解释得更清楚。讲这需要很长时间(大约6-10小时)我懒,不想写。要是能周末和大家在大厅里作一个长时间的交流讨论就效率高,更多感兴趣的同学和朋友都能同时分享。不知大家是否有兴趣,我也想把这经历和大家分享,对开拓我们视野和增加知识宽度和深度,以及培养怎样预知,推理未知但存在物理规律很有好处,也会帮助大家以后 的研究工作。因为我们研究的对象就是了解上帝的创造的东西。我也会告诉大家当今的很多未解奥秘是怎么回事,让大家在了解上帝后 have some fun。不希望(有神论和无神论的)狂热分子参加,只接受文明的从平静的   to    打破砂锅问到底的人。
 
 
 
liu Jin
From: Dongxu Wang <dxwan...@gmail.com>
To: jingch...@gmail.com; FSU CSSA <FSU-...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 4, 2013 2:39 PM

Subject: Re: [CSSA] Re: 无神论的兴起
我确实采取了攻击性的措辞,但是和基督教义的攻击性相比,实在不值一提。对比那个动不动就诅咒人妻子兄弟儿女,哪天不爽就要灭灭一个城市,国家甚至全人类的大神耶和华,几个词语实在算不了什么。对于如此残暴的基督教义安然处之,对几个攻击性措词却大惊小怪,实在让人费解。既然你和我分享了你的宗教观点,下面就是我对你分享的回应。

1. 关于宗教起源的问题。某些宗教起源有人类探索真理的好奇心成分,这个或许和科学有共同之处。但是,我以为,不可把宗教和科学相提并论。应该指出,科学是人类认识世界唯一的可靠方法:那就是逻辑和实验,也就是讲证据。科学的认识有历史的局限性,可能会出错;但是,这和 根本不讲事实与逻辑的宗教有根本区别;另外,很多宗教的产生并不是人类探索自然的好奇心,而是骗子精心罗织的谎言;这在当今社会也是屡见不鲜的。谎言百出的圣经已经表明耶和华大神乃是骗子出身:童女生子,变水为酒,水上行走,死而复活。。。

2和3是同一个问题,就是中国现在需要不需要宗教信仰。你要说中国缺乏的是 道德信仰,人生信仰,基本认同,其实我认为用另外一个词更好,就是诚信体系;但中国绝不是缺乏宗教信仰,宗教信仰也无助于诚信体系的建立。宗教本身就不为求真,指望宗教能解决中国的缺乏诚信的问题,南辕北辙。信一个超越全体人类的神,于是众生平等了,听起来比较美妙;可惜,神是需要代言人的。无论善和美采取任何标准,首先还是要求真。离开事实,哪怕半步,骗子就会乘虚而入。为了建立诚信体系引入一个虚假的偶像,这种做法是可怕的,因为一旦作假被揭穿,会引发更大的道德和诚信危机。美国诚信体系的建立在于确定了政教分离等一系列对宗教打压的政策,在政教一体时代政治黑暗到了什么程度,大家心知肚明。

4是关于宗教是否愚昧的问题,我的答案是肯定的。和愚昧相对立的是科学与理性。宗教作为一种文化,当然有一定可取之处,可惜和科学理性实在搭不上边,甚至背道而驰。我不清楚你怎么能把童话故事和宗教信仰联系到一块。儿童天真烂漫的童心和宗教信仰还是要区分的。教徒喜欢告诉孩子:如果不信上帝就要下地狱,这当然就是愚昧。

5关于宗教迫害和冲突。伊斯兰和基督的冲突,无疑是宗教排外性的一个直接结果,你举了更多的例子,我就不一一重复,这都说明了宗教非理性。但是,看你的言辞,似乎把中国文革中的问题归结为不信神,这个没有证据。文革的问题是多方面的,譬如法制缺失,个人权力过大,和信神不信神没有关系。就像韩国的强大和吃泡菜没有关系一样。

6关于不可知论,不做太多评 价。人类认识目前有限,但是不能因为有未知的东西就引入一个莫名其妙,不需解释的上帝,这实际上是逃避主义。更不能让这个上帝干预指导我们的生活,有个朋友的奶奶因为信基督神教,得了癌症不去治疗,在家祈祷,可悲。

在探索和发现的路上,共勉。


OX

unread,
Jun 6, 2013, 11:45:40 PM6/6/13
to runni...@yahoo.com.cn, keap...@gmail.com, dxwan...@gmail.com, jin liu, FSU CSSA
这个讨论帖让我想起最近一个节目:刚才李玟老师一直在跟我飙高音,其实我嘴巴上面没说,其实我心里面知道,我已经赢了,我已经赢她太多,他们没有发现我这么一个,音色又好,原创又好,高音又好的一个音乐人才,我对音乐是不会放弃的,我会一直执着,我会用我自己的原创,感动所有人......哦三天三夜的...
 

抄送: jin liu <liu3...@yahoo.com>; FSU CSSA <FSU-...@googlegroups.com>
发送日期: 2013年6月6日, 星期四, 11:10 下午
主题: 回复: [CSSA] Re: 无神论的兴起

Shan

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Jun 7, 2013, 1:05:53 AM6/7/13
to keap...@gmail.com, dxwan...@gmail.com, jin liu, FSU CSSA
恩,圣经里的诗句很美,也有很多智慧^_^这个不容否认吧

Sent from my iPhone

lq z

unread,
Jun 7, 2013, 2:42:21 AM6/7/13
to shaojie Yuan Shaojie, Dongxu Wang, FSU CSSA
Shaojie,

I'm very impressed by the thoughtfulness and gentleness in your reply. I actually share some common ground with you on the age of the universe. I believe the universe is billions of years old because a lot of scientific data can show us it. Is Bible wrong? No. The Bible doesn't simply tell us how old the universe was. I couldn't find it anywhere there. When Moses wrote Genesis, it was not his intention to write a book on astrophysics, instead, it was about God's grand design and human being's fall in sin. God has two books: the Bible and the Nature. If we want to know something about this physical world, study the nature. If you want to know who you are and who God is, study the Bible. There is no contradiction between them. The Bible doesn't tell us quantum theory and the science doesn't tell us the meaning of life.

To All who it May Concern,

As a Christian, I personally have no interest to win an argument or force my view on anyone, including my dear family members. It's not my job. Do we have to share our faith? No. We get to. Why? Two words: truth and love. Truth sets you free, truth leads you to a meaningful life. We have known and experienced God's love through the ultimate sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross. He showed us love not because we are so good and deserve it, but because we are sinners, who have sinned against Him and each other. This great love compels Christians to share God's love with people around us - we want them to know His love too!

Let's then pull out evidences. So far neither side has done much about it. Many things to talk about. Let's start with Darwinian evolution. It's a fact or fiction? I admit it's extremely unpopular in the scientific circle to say anything critical on evolution. That's why I admire some evolutionists who have expressed their concern and doubt on this topic.

British Museum of Natural History has over 60 million fossil specimens, the world's largest collection. Colin Patterson, an evolutionist, was the a senior paleontologist there. He wrote a book titled "Evolution" and said if he knew of any evolutionary transitions, fossil or living, he would have included them in the book. Once in his talk, he commented:

"For over 20 years I thought I was working on evolution ... but there was not one thing I knew about it ... so for the last few weeks I've tried putting a simple question to various people and groups of people. Question is: 'Can you tell me anything you know about evolution, any one thing, any one thing that is true?' I tried that question on the geology staff at the Field Museum of Natural History and the only answer I got was silence. I tried it on the members of the Evolutionary Morphology Seminar in the University of Chicago, a very prestigious body of evolutionists, and all I got there was silence for a long time and eventually one person said, 'Yes, I do know one thing - it ought not to be taught in high school.' ... During the past few years ... you have experienced a shift from evolution as knowledge to evolution as faith ... Evolution not only conveys no knowledge, but seems somehow to convey anti-knowledge."

His words stirred much controversy among his peers, though he still believed evolution as the only conceivable explanation for the natural world. My point? Apparently, it's NOT a scientific fact that Darwinian Evolution is true, even among scientists who have spent much of their lives on it. Dongxu, if you want to do some homework, maybe you can help Dr. Patterson answer his question.

So long for now,

Lianqing





On Sun, Jun 2, 2013 at 12:07 PM, shaojie Yuan Shaojie <workhar...@gmail.com> wrote:

Dongxu Wang

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Jun 7, 2013, 8:35:41 AM6/7/13
to Shan, FSU CSSA
把宗教当做一种文化来欣赏,这完全没有问题,尽管我不认为圣经有多少智慧。我读着圣经就是一本描述上帝如何嫉妒,发作,迁怒于人的记事本。有人说圣经里面有大爱,这只是个幌子。总不能对异教徒上来就诅咒消灭吧。

最主要问题是,圣经究竟是不是Truth。这是大是大非问题,是我们和神棍分歧的焦点。


2013/6/7 Shan <winne...@gmail.com>

Jian Wang

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Jun 7, 2013, 8:46:10 AM6/7/13
to dxwan...@gmail.com, Shan, FSU CSSA
讨论啥啊 哎 

找工作 吃饱饭先吧 谁给饭吃相信谁 


Shan

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Jun 7, 2013, 5:25:00 PM6/7/13
to Jian Wang, dxwan...@gmail.com, FSU CSSA
恩,这个太偏激了吧。
1,今之学者读古人书,多訾古人之失;与今人居,亦乐称人失。。。。。。。
2,

《老子》说:“居近识远,处今知古,惟学矣乎。”东晋陶渊明说:“得知千载事,正赖古人书。”明代的报翁老人在《今古传奇》里写道:“要知天下事,须读古人书”。(见网络)

3  再说人家还从红楼梦里读出养生菜谱呢!从西游记读出管理学

Sent from my iPhone

Dongxu Wang

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Jun 7, 2013, 5:34:04 PM6/7/13
to Shan, FSU CSSA
对圣经的艺术性质可以有不同的解读,我阐述的是我的解读,当然你也可以有你的理解。
我不强求别人和我的看法一致,这不是争执的焦点。

我和神棍的深刻的分歧在于,上帝的存在究竟是不是Truth。这个答案只有 是或者否,没有调和的余地。






2013/6/7 Shan <winne...@gmail.com>

Dongxu Wang

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Jun 7, 2013, 8:03:05 PM6/7/13
to lq z, FSU CSSA
教徒前一篇洗地长文被批的千疮百孔,已经无力做出全面的反驳,于是祭出了新的招式:只攻一点,不及其余。我说了我不是生物出身,于是教徒看到继续胡搅蛮缠的可能,开始攻击进化论,这也暴露了宗教反科学的真面目。教徒胡搅的地方太多了,几乎每个观点都莫名其妙。我没有精力把道理给他们天天讲,月月讲,随便说两句。让还没有入教的人看清基督教的真面目,别上当就行。

首先的问题是:非此并不即彼。就算进化论是错的,上帝的存在性仍然不能成立。对于宇宙的形成的看法并非只有进化论和基督创世论,还有其他各种学说,其他各种宗教。

其次,进化论究竟是不是错的?这个问题由生物学同学回答比较合适。当然在教徒看来,科学不过也是一种信仰,信科学也是某种意义上的信徒,谁说对他们效果差不多,所以我就越俎代庖说几句。声明:我的看法来自主流科学界,如有错误,希望学生物出身的同学指出。

进化论创于1859年,经过一个半 世纪的完善和发展,和孟德尔的遗传定律一起,成了现代生物学的两大基石,现代生物学的重要性毋庸置疑,食品工程,基因工程,医学全都依赖于它的发展进步,而且生物学和其他科学也是契合的相当完美,没有发现矛盾之处。诺贝尔奖设立了生物(生理和医学),物理,化学,声称进化论是unscientic是非常不可思议的,这相当是对整个科学的挑衅。据理查德道金斯介绍,进化论的很多思想直接应用到生物育种,药品研发,而教徒要推翻进化论,可以说,现代生物学就倒塌了,这还得了?不说别的,就是医学这一和普通人息息相关的领域就要遭殃。教徒声称科学解决不了一切,但是圣经能(一个教徒对我的私自回复),看来掌握了圣经就是掌握了一切真理。只是不知道教徒生病了是去医院还是读经拜神,如果是后者,我倒也佩服他们的虔诚和逻辑的一贯。

刚开始有人对我使用“臭脚布”,“愚昧”表示了不满,说实话,这些词对他们实在是太客气了。

很多人存在不切实际的幻想,以为科学和宗教可以和谐共处。共处是必须的,和谐却别指望。科学进一步,宗教就退一步,反之亦然。讲逻辑讲证据的科学和不讲逻辑不讲证据的宗教是天然的敌人,没有妥协的余地。大家可以试想一下,像教徒那样的人一旦掌握了公共权力,会对科学做出怎样的举措?在我看来,弄不好把大学,医院,科研机构都取消改办成教堂了,因为“圣经可以解决一切嘛” 。

Ren Ping

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Jun 7, 2013, 9:51:20 PM6/7/13
to Dongxu Wang, Shan, FSU CSSA
讨论点形而上的东西挺有意思
 
 P 了个S, 楼上的楼上,“居近识远,处今知古,惟学矣乎” 出自《文中子》, 一般来说,老子这个人喜欢在那闲着,不会说出这么好学的话:


2013/6/7 Dongxu Wang <dxwan...@gmail.com>
349.gif

Dongxu Wang

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Jun 7, 2013, 10:47:50 PM6/7/13
to Ren Ping, FSU CSSA
别歪我的楼


2013/6/7 Ren Ping <renp...@gmail.com>
349.gif

DREAM202

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Jun 11, 2013, 9:42:32 AM6/11/13
to fsu-...@googlegroups.com, Ren Ping, FSU CSSA
倒是挺想听听前面那位说说见过神的经历。不知道可不可以录下来。这样以后不再场的同学们也可以参阅。
别歪我的楼


2013/6/7 Ren Ping <renp...@gmail.com>


2013/6/7 Dongxu Wang <dxwan...@gmail.com>


2013/6/7 Shan <winne...@gmail.com>


2013/6/7 Shan <winne...@gmail.com>
想听。先报个名!


2013/6/6 Dongxu Wang <dxwan...@gmail.com>



2013/6/5 jin liu <liu3...@yahoo.com>
2013/6/3 superman <jingch...@gmail.com>

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jin liu

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Jun 18, 2013, 6:24:24 AM6/18/13
to Dongxu Wang, FSU-...@googlegroups.com
Dongxu,  你好!
  
       你所说的一切,我完全理解,我也有你的经历。但是我的确见过上帝,我现在国内,回Tallahassee 后我想我们可以搞一个讨论会。 完全按你所说的要求思路来回答问题,因为你的思路代表大家的共同想法,也是符合逻辑的。 我见过上帝, 所以也没有必要准备什么,我们可以从任何角度来讨论这个问题,我想可以回答清楚你的问题的,因为事实都是有逻辑的,谎言就能很容易地找出很多逻辑故障。讨论完后你会发现这些东西我是无法编得这么天衣无缝的,除非有亲身经历。我唯一要求是谁能弄到一台数字露像机能录下来。原因是这要耗费6-10个小时(基本的东西),宇宙和上帝不是小玩意,讲下来不容易;同时我也想写本关于上帝的书,详细写下来,对搞研究的人有用,不写实在太可惜了。我很懒,所以找点偷懒的办法。
 
Jin
From: Dongxu Wang <dxwan...@gmail.com>
To: jin liu <liu3...@yahoo.com>; FSU CSSA <FSU-...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 6, 2013 3:20 PM

Dongxu Wang

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Jun 18, 2013, 6:32:32 PM6/18/13
to jin liu, FSU CSSA
我马上就要离开Tallahassee了,但是这并不妨碍大家继续讨论上帝存在以及宗教和科学的恩恩怨怨。很多人都对Jin Liu见过上帝不以为然,我认为 Ta 的确可能有这方面的经历,而且Ta是真诚的,但是有可能出于某种幻觉,任何人的一生都难免在某个阶段出现幻觉。对这个话题感兴趣的同学或者 学生会 可以组织一下,信仰问题毕竟是一个大问题,在一个只买卖二手杂货的论坛里面是没有什么理性可言的,尽管也看不到所谓的人身攻击。Dream202 和 Jin Liu代表不同的立场,但是对讨论的前提没有异议:理性讨论,现场录制。这就是对话的基础。相信很多同学也有类似的看法,我也希望看到 Jin Liu对上帝存在进行强有力辩护,前面那些胡搅蛮缠的说法实在不值一驳。

Dongxu Wang

2013/6/18 jin liu <liu3...@yahoo.com>

jin liu

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Jun 18, 2013, 10:43:14 PM6/18/13
to Dongxu Wang, FSU-...@googlegroups.com
 Dongxu, 你好
      
       不知道你的中文名怎么写?我中文名是刘进。有点遗憾你要离开Tallahassee 了,不过要是能录下来也许你还能看到。只是不能面对面的和你交流,地确差点什么。也许现场有和你一样提问方式的同学和朋友,能弥补遗憾。我理解你提到 “ 很多人都对Jin Liu见过上帝不以为然,我认为 Ta 的确可能有这方面的经历,而且Ta是真诚的,但是有可能出于某种幻觉,任何人的一生都难免在某个阶段出现幻觉。”  我要是没见过上帝也会这么怀疑的。其实, 某种幻觉 是没有真实性和现实性的,也没有逻辑性,不能重复的。 但是我的经历正好相反,我可以告诉你怎么去见上帝,怎么回来,谁都可以的。但是,不是那么容易的,有条件的(但你可以做到)。就象你知道某种材料有超导特性,但是你演示给人看的话,要液氮和相应的工具,是吧 ? 这工具不是你立即在任何地方和时间就能搞到手的,但是你绝对不会怀疑你能搞到,是吧?我会回答所有你提到的东西,是直接,正面,肯定地回答,不会绕任何弯子。因为是事实也就不用我来动脑筋编故事。我知道大家被绕弯子的人,隔着皮鞋抓痒的人(有些宗教人士就这样)搞得很那个。我理解,所以,给大家直接抓痒,让大家痛快。 顺便会把当今世界上还未解开的一些奥秘原因告诉大家,让大家 Have some fun.  “ 知道了,其实也没有什么的。”    你会有这种感觉,不知道前,大家的确痒的太难受了, 也很烦那 隔着皮鞋给你抓痒的某些宗教人士。我不是任何教的教徒,因为上帝对我说不用加入任何教派,和任何人没有界线,和他们融为一体,爱他们,因为我和大家一样是上帝的儿子。我们的父亲生育了我们的肉体,我们叫他父亲;上帝生育了我们灵体(即生命)当然也叫父亲。逻辑上应该好理解和接受。 我们人和所有生物都是灵魂和肉体两大部分组成的,就象电脑我们都知道由硬件(肉体)和软件(灵魂) 组成的。你的电脑和我的电脑配置不一样,外形不一样,但是同样版本的操作系统架构是一样的。这个比喻不完全适合,但大体上表达出了那个意思。         Dongxu,我很喜欢你敢原原本本地说出自己的心里话,没有任何虚伪的东西在里面,很真诚和上帝一样(上帝他就是这样)。 希望知道你的中文名字怎么写。
 
Jin
From: Dongxu Wang <dxwan...@gmail.com>
To: jin liu <liu3...@yahoo.com>; FSU CSSA <FSU-...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2013 6:32 PM

lq z

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Jun 19, 2013, 1:21:18 AM6/19/13
to Dongxu Wang, FSU CSSA
Richard Dawkins said if you don't believe in evolution, you are "ignorant, stupid or insane." Such kind of emotional, sensational comments, though I personally don't mind or care, are unconstructive, unedifying, provide no new knowledge, and don't help anyone in our discussion. Of course you can say whatever is in your heart, just keep in mind that it doesn't help.

If you want to talk about another area, let's hear your comment on the origin of the universe. You believe this universe came from nothing. You gave one example. However, please be reminded that electron and positron annihilation doesn't produce nothing, instead, energy or possibly photons are the products. Energy and photon, though they have no mass, are something, not nothing. Secondly, is this process really reversible? Evidence (papers, experiments ...), instead of dogmatic assertion, should be provided. I look forward to hearing your arguments when you have time finishing reading the book you mentioned.

Come back to evolution. I have no problem with micro-evolution, that is, changes inside a kind, like different breeds of dog, bird's beak change with weather and environment, drug resistance bacteria or virus. However, I was talking about Darwinian or macro-evolution, that is, changes from non-life to life and from one species to another, like from amoeba to astronaut.

It is an importance issue because atheists use this to demonstrate that life could come into being through this unguided, undirected, purposeless, random process, thus no need for God who created everything. When you see two species that have some common features, then you decide that one must have evolved from the other. It's OK to have some speculations, but again evidence is needed to prove it is true. If I say an airplane evolved from a bike by a random process, hummingbird and helicopter have common ancestor because both can fly, or after a tornado passes  a patch of woods, a brand-new mansion appears, someone would call me crazy. Scientists go after evidence and a true scientist is even willing to change his hypothesis if evidence is against it.

You are not in biology, it's fine. You still can study the evidence. My research (which happens to be biology-related) has produced useful results without any input from Darwinian evolution, and will continue to do so. I believe all labs in our building  will do as well as now without it. Any comments from biology/biomedical majors are very welcome regarding this issue: if Darwinian evolution is false, will your career be over, your lab closed? What kind of useful results have you generated using his theory?

Consequences of Darwinian evolution and natural selection can be scary. Racism is naturally justified to preserve the "advanced" human gene pool from being contaminated by some "lower races". Today people who believe in Darwinism don't mentioned this anymore. However, it was what Darwin believed (which makes perfect sense if you believe his doctrine). Young generation lives a life like animal because they were taught they came from animal. Societies infested with sexual immorality, abortion, and so on and on.

Before 1949, a lot of hospitals and foreign educational institutes in China were built by missionaries. It's simply unfair and untrue to say Christians are anti-science and anti-education. Again it's a dogmatic assertion that Christians would convert everything you talked about to churches. I haven't met a single Christian who has this idea and the Bible doesn't teach this either.

What's the meaning of life? Atheists always dodge this question. Someone even said what's the meaning of asking what's the meaning of life? What's your answer, Dongxu?

I'm glad you read Bible, though very critically. Keep reading it and asking questions about it. Yes, it talks a lot about murder, adultery, covetousness, wars, judgment. Isn't it a true depiction of you and me, and history of our sinful nature? However, anyone with an open-mind can't deny it talks more about God's love, mercy, grace, forgiveness, and purpose for your life. Do you know what the peoples that God asked Israelites to remove had done? Give you one example: they killed their children as sacrifice to their gods (man-made and false gods, of course). If this happens nowadays and these guys were sentenced to death, people would say it's justice. Yes, God is a just God. Yet, He is merciful and patient. Do you know He gave those peoples 400 years to repent? Those who did, like Rehab and Ruth, were forgiven and saved. Our sins can be forgiven all because Jesus Christ, the only innocent person, died on our behalf and paid our debt of sin. Those whose choose not to put their trust in Him will one day pay for themselves.

We hold the Bible, or God's Word, as the final court of arbitration. It is where we find the truth. We know the truth not because we just believe we know everything, instead, the truth is revealed to us by God, who is the author of all truth. How do we know the Bible is divine instead of mere human origin? If you really want to know, there are huge amount of hard evidences to support that. For example, the copies of early manuscripts, archaeology, fulfillment of prophecies, etc. Where did you get your truth? How do you know for sure it's true?

I'm here not to prove that God exists. As a human being, I have to admit that by nature I'm very limited, both physically and intellectually. The Creator of the universe is way bigger than any of us and doesn't need anyone to prove His existence. However, we can examine the evidence we have regarding this world and ourselves, and hold on to whatever it leads to. He really wants you to know Him. That's why He gives us so many evidences: the creation, the conscience, the Bible, the Christ, ...

Dongxu Wang

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Jun 19, 2013, 2:40:45 AM6/19/13
to jin liu, FSU CSSA
首先,作为对刘进同学的回答,我的名字是:王栋诩,数学系出身。数学,严格说并不是科学,但数学是科学的重要工具,我站在科学的一边。我的搜狐微博ID 佛罗里达勇敢的心,欢迎加关注。

事情变的非常有趣了,刘进同学声称看到上帝并声称Ta的经历可以重复。有实验表明,给大脑某个部位施加刺激,会产生某种幻觉,并且这种幻觉受到强烈暗示的时候,可能产生某种同一性。我希望看到TA的实验过程和结果,如果能经受现代科学的严格检验,不失为一个极好的研究素材。

至于Lq Z那个基督徒的洗脚长文,我又一次耐心的从头读到尾(再次佩服一下自己),基本已经迷失了,我看不到他的逻辑所在,已经凌乱了。他对自己被批的千疮百孔的前文视而不见,继续胡搅蛮缠。逻辑到了这个地步了,没有辩论的必要了,再次声明,我们辩论的目的不是挽救这些已经被毒害的不可救药的神棍,教徒,而是让那些没有入教的人看清楚宗教骗人的面目,不上当受骗。所以,留给看客们评价谁对谁错吧。


贴一篇关于无神论者的人生目的,来着伟大的数理学家,哲学家,波特兰.罗素, 由当代中国最杰出的科普学家,学者,方舟子 翻译


      我的人生追求

                伯特兰·罗素
有三种简单然而无比强烈的激情左右了我的一生:对 爱的渴望,对知识的探索和对人类苦难的难以忍受的怜悯。 这些激情象飓风,无处不在、反复无常地吹拂着我,吹过 深重的苦海,濒于绝境。 我寻找爱,首先是因为它使人心醉神迷,这种陶醉是 如此的美妙,使我愿意牺牲所有的余生去换取几个小时这 样的欣喜。我寻找爱,还因为它解除孤独,在可怕的孤独 中,一颗颤抖的灵魂从世界的边缘看到冰冷、无底、死寂 的深渊。最后,我寻找爱,还因为在爱的交融中,神秘 而又具体而微地,我看到了圣贤和诗人们想象出的天堂的 前景。这就是我所寻找的,而且,虽然对人生来说似乎 过于美妙,这也是我终于找到了的。 以同样的激情我探索知识。我希望能够理解人类的心 灵。我希望能够知道群星为何闪烁。我试图领悟毕达哥拉 斯所景仰的数字力量,它支配着此消彼涨。仅在不大的一 定程度上,我达到了此目的。 爱和知识,只要有可能,通向着天堂。但是怜悯总把 我带回尘世。痛苦呼喊的回声回荡在我的内心。忍饥挨饿 的孩子,惨遭压迫者摧残的受害者,被儿女们视为可憎的 负担的无助的老人,连同这整个充满了孤独、贫穷和痛苦 的世界,使人类所应有的生活成为了笑柄。我渴望能够减 少邪恶,但是我无能为力,而且我自己也在忍受折磨。 这就是我的一生。我发现它值得一过。如果再给我一 次机会,我会很高兴地再活它一次。 (摘自罗素自传的前言) What I have Lived For ------Bertrand Russell Three passions,simple but overwhelmingly strong,have governed my life:the longing for love,the search for knowledge,and unbearable pity for the suffering of mankind.These passions,like great winds,have blown me hither and thither,in a wayward course,over a deep ocean of anguish,reaching to the very verge of despair. I have sought love,first,because it brings ecstasy--ecstasy so great that I would often have sacrificed all the rest of life for a few hours of this joy.I have sought it,next,because it relieves loneliness--that terrible loneliness in which one shivering consciousness looks over the rim of the world into the cold unfathomable lifeless abyss.I have sought it,finally,because in the union of love I have seen,in a mystic miniature,the prefiguring vision of the heaven that saints and poets have imagined.This is what I sought,and though it might seem too good for human life, this is what--at last--I have found. With equal passion I have sought knowledge.I have wished to understand the hearts of men.I have wished to know why the stars shine.And I have tried to apprehend the Pythagorean power by which number holds sway above the flux.A little of this,but not much,I have achieved. Love and knowledge,so far as they were possible,led upward toward the heavens.But always pity brought me back to earth.Echoes of cries of pain reverberate in my heart.Children in famine,victims tortured by oppressors,helpless old people a hated burden to their sons,and the whole world of loneliness,poverty,and pain make a mockery of what human life should be.I long to alleviate the evil, but I can't ,and I too suffer. This has been my life.I have found it worth living,and would gladly live itagain if the chance were offered me. NOTE:This is the prologue of Russell's autobiography.

jin liu

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Jun 19, 2013, 8:02:58 AM6/19/13
to dxwan...@gmail.com, FSU-...@googlegroups.com
        王栋诩同学,谢谢你的回复。 其实,我们人对任何未知的东西的分析判断都是以现有的知识和经历作为推理的依据的,我们没办法跳出自己生活的小圈子,也叫经验主义。这是人认识发展的自然属性,大家都一样半斤八两,无可厚非。因为我们绝大多数人只能记住生活在地球上的事情,尽管我们和上帝存在时间一样久(我们就是直接来自于他,是他的一部份),但是每
个人在灵魂在被上帝送来地球之前记忆都会被清零(我们的记忆不在大脑里而在灵魂里。)所以,绝大部分人散失了曾在地球以外的知识。就只能用地球上获得的知识来推理和判断未知的东西。就象你用“有实验表明,给大脑某个部位施加刺激,会产生某种幻觉,并且这种幻觉受到强烈暗示的时候,可能产生某种同一性” 一样,来推断我所说的东西。请注意,我不是在批评谁,
而是在客观地讲解人探索未知东西的自然属性,所有人都一样,我也是。其实,事情远非你想的这样(这话太长,到时再说)。地球上的理论只是宇宙里的很小很小的一部分,而且是特殊情况。 大家都知道瞎子摸象的故事,摸到象牙的绝对不会相信那个摸到象鼻子的瞎子所说的,象是柔软的,弯起来力气还很大。他只会相信是硬的,没有任何柔软性。 矛盾的出现原因是
大家都认为自己看到的是所有,其他人的当然就不对。如果有一人让瞎子们眼睛可以看见了,或者告诉他们的错误并拉着瞎子们的手去整个地把象摸一遍,你说矛盾和争论还有吗? 这个工作是很有意义的和有趣的,是吧? 老实说我们很多科学知识很有局限性的,不对的。包括很多我们认为的名人理论和常识也是这样。到时我告诉你后,你会吓一大跳的。 但没有什么,我们知道了
人的认识规律特性,就会变得大度和容忍。我们瞎子们还可和平相处,互相帮助,相互友爱,相互沟通。我们都可以做这个有意义的工作,在某些领域里我们是瞎子,但在另一个领域里我们是1.5。抛弃自身的骄傲,时刻理性地想着我们都是不同领域的瞎子和1.5,   用诚实和真诚来相互沟通和启发,相互帮助, 总有新东西学习和发现,生活不是很有意思么,是吧? 上帝就是这种态度,我们学他就会办事顺利,有好处得,宗教人士是说  “有福了。”
 
Jin
 

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lq z

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Jun 20, 2013, 1:37:40 AM6/20/13
to Dongxu Wang, jin liu, FSU CSSA
You'll be happy with this email - because it's a short one :). It's simply some questions for you to answer before you withdraw from the conversation. From the very beginning of the discussion, I really hope to learn something new from the logic and evidence of your point of view.

1. Please explain how the universe came from nothing and how nothing could produce something. (I asked this before, but no real answer was given. What did Russell say about it?)

2. Love, knowledge, pity for suffering - Those are what Russell lived for, probably same for you. But why these things? And why they are meaningful? If we are merely physical and came from a long, long random process of evolution, then whatever you do and think is just results of brain chemistry and genetics.

With four marriages and numerous affairs, he was not the person we look up to as an example of love - unless you define love as mere feeling and sex. That's too superficial. On the contrary, God showed us in the Bible that true love is sacrificial and a commitment to put the welfare of others before your own. "Others" of course include your spouse. Have you heard the wedding vow? "For better, for worse, for poorer, for richer, in health and in sickness ... until death do us part." This is true love, God's love, and satisfying love. Try it and you will know.

God bless you in your new job and home!






2013/6/19 Dongxu Wang <dxwan...@gmail.com>

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Dongxu Wang

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Jun 20, 2013, 2:56:16 AM6/20/13
to lq z, FSU CSSA
真服了你,你的那些问题答案不都摆在那里么?教徒的阅读能力咋都这么成问题,难怪连圣经是爱是恨都看不清。既然你反复的问,我就不厌其烦再给你总结一次。

关于宇宙产生Nothing的问题,那是Krauss写的书名字,我没有读过,内容也不清楚。他的Nothing是什么意思也不好说。但是,宇宙即使不产生于Nothing,也应该有个简单的开始。科学是用简单解释复杂,也不是相反。上帝如果造了宇宙,他一定比宇宙更复杂,本身更需要解释,你不能一到上帝就终止了,就不让人问问题了,那是什么道理?

科学确实有解释不了的事情,面对解释不了的事情,科学的态度是承认解释不了,并积极寻求答案。你假设一个上帝存在有什么意义?能帮助解决什么问题?还说生活中没有极端的教徒,生活中极端的教徒多了去了,你是不是逼我公布私人邮件呀?那个教徒清清楚楚说圣经解决一切,这难道不是你们神教普遍的观点吗?这也是你们基督神教的立教之本呀!不极端还能算基督徒吗?你难道认为圣经不解决一切吗?小心神棍把你开除出神教。


你问无神者人生的目的是什么?罗素告诉你是Love, knowledge, pity for suffering,并给了详尽的理由,你不是只读了第一段了吧,还是后面太难你读不懂?还在那老是问为什么。我算看出来了,不把耶和华大神请出来你是不会停止问为什么的。耶和华大神一出来,你什么问题都没有了,只剩洋溢全身上下的幸福。因为一句话: By his nature,他不需要被质疑,是 uncaused。看明白了吧?这就是你们神教徒的诡异之处。

罗素的婚姻观和爱情观是什么,我不太清楚。结四次婚总比你的那个耶和华大神动不动就毁灭一个国家,甚至全人类要好吧?耶和华大神不也整天把爱挂着嘴上,并让你们这些教徒和飞蛾扑火一样,为他前仆后继?

感谢你的祝福。不过,上帝还是留给你自己吧。

Dongxu Wang

2013/6/20 lq z <lqz...@gmail.com>

jin liu

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Jun 20, 2013, 9:15:42 PM6/20/13
to dxwan...@gmail.com, FSU-...@googlegroups.com
栋诩,你好。
  
         这位 lqz  先生是中国人吗?听起来象是一个老基督徒,是FSU的教授吧? 看你们俩好象在争论宇宙的起源,我解释一下。
         没有什么东西是可以从没有产生出来的,宇宙是从包围我们整个宇宙(我们提到的宇宙默认是有行星和恒星的空间)的阴间(也叫暗物质区域)的物质在上帝巨大的灵场作用下而形成的(也可以说是按照上帝的意思,他的道,或者说他定的规律,由他用天堂里的能量创造的。说来话长,我懒,不想写,只想说。)阴间的暗物质区域是密度均匀的高密度物质组成的,光线无法通过。我们以为宇宙来自Nothing 是由于暗物质不发光,我们看不到,就以为 Universe came from nothing.  宇宙的内容当然总体上看,就是上帝所用暗物质的多少加天堂里的能量了;宇宙的形状和运行规律当然按上帝的道(或者说物理化学规律)来控制了。上帝的逻辑思维是很清晰,很让人灵魂舒服的,舒服得海量信息经过你的灵魂,一点都不累。这就是清晰逻辑的奇效。解释有点粗线条(因为我不喜欢写,效率太低),但是希望有点帮助,给火气浇点凉水, 舒服一下。
 
 
Jin
From: Dongxu Wang <dxwan...@gmail.com>
To: lq z <lqz...@gmail.com>; FSU CSSA <FSU-...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2013 2:56 AM

shaojie Yuan Shaojie

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Jun 21, 2013, 2:17:56 AM6/21/13
to Luke Zheng, Dongxu Wang, jin liu, FSU CSSA
Dear Luke,

Reality never withdraw!

let me answer your first question with the scope of current cosmology
community. First Jin's view is not correct in my point of view. I am
not an expert of this field either. however, the discussion of you
guys strongly brought back my interest in cosmology.

Please allow me to give a rough picture of evolution of the universe.
Please forgive my mistake and the unclear parts, I believe a real
cosmologist can definitely do a better job.

It was dense and hot in the early universe. There were no
galaxies,clusters, either the large scale structures because of the
fast moving particles. Let us mark this time T0 which is roughly 13
billions years ago. At T0, the universe was pretty homogeneous and
isotropic.


Before T0, there was a fast expansion of the universe, which is called
inflation and because of which our observed universe at that time or
(today at a very large scale) is homogeneous and isotropic.

Before inflation, it is believed there was no matter-like things at
the very beginning. While, in a very short time, these matter like
things which might be Higgs boson in the standard model or something
thing we do not know yet appeared suddenly because of the fluctuation
of the space and time tensor in Einstein equation. Some people call
this process quantum fluctuation of the vacuum, for which a better
quantum gravity theory is needed!

Everything before T0 is still under debate. However our nowadays model
after T0 is pretty solid and well experimental tested.

As the universe expands, temperature of the that drops.


1 Previous particle from quantum fluctuation which might be Higgs or
some other X particles started to decay into standard model particles
and dark matter. Simultaneously with the decaying, the universe kept
expanding and some particles freed in, some particle freed out.

2 As temperature became even cooler, nuclei begun to form which was
corresponding to a process called Nucleosynthesis.

3 As time moving forward, expansion was still going and the temperate
was keeping going down. At certain temperature, electrons were no
longer energetic enough to overcome the attraction of the nuclei. Thus
atoms came to from. At the same time, light manged to travel freely
in the universe , which hence became transparent.

4, Then the stars! then stars gathered together! Then the galaxies!
then large scale structures! Then nowadays universe!!!

There are several observation techniques supporting the above view 1
Cosmic microwave background 2 Gravitational lensing 3 the abundance of
the light nuclei ,etc

our current universe is still growing bigger and is observed to have
an acceleration in expansion. According to model and data, the
universe is divided into 30% matter and 70% energy which is called
dark energy. Among the matter part, the portion which are similar to
what we are made of is only 4% and the rest is dark matter. Actually,
light can travel freely trough dark matter, and their path can be
distorted by these dark matter, so Jin's idea might not be accepted by
the scientific community.

SJ

Dongxu Wang

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Jun 21, 2013, 3:09:46 AM6/21/13
to jin liu, FSU CSSA
我这几天忙着和中医粉激战,把神教这边撇下了,Sorry

问一个问题,既然没有什么东西可以产生于nothing,那么上帝是如何产生的呢?


2013/6/20 jin liu <liu3...@yahoo.com>

jin liu

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Jun 22, 2013, 4:36:45 AM6/22/13
to dxwan...@gmail.com, FSU-...@googlegroups.com
 
栋诩,你好
你提出的问题我只能先粗线条地回答你,因为在我没有告诉你上帝和宇宙的结构和特性之前是没有办法帮助你理解这些东西的。这要很多有关的(我前面提到的)宇宙空间的物理知识和上帝的灵魂方面的知识作为理解的基础。在来到地球之前,我们人类绝大部分人的这些知识已经被上帝清零了。我很懒,不喜欢敲字。只想回Tallahassee 后和大家在 seminar 上讨论介绍,说话比敲字效率高多了。 这东西比较复杂,不是三言两语就说明白了。
       上帝是灵魂,生命和我们看到的可见和不可见没有生命的物质有本质的区别,不是一类的。我说的是 Universe could not come from nothing. 宇宙由来自阴间的暗物质转化而来的,在来自天堂里的能量的驱使下,按照上帝的道(或者叫规律)在运行。这有三部分,上帝的灵魂,天堂里的能量和阴间的暗物质。他(它)们是 不一样的东西,要分开来说。Universe could not come from nothing.  我们潜规则地指宇宙它由阴间的暗物质而来,宇宙不能凭空而来的,阴间(或叫暗物质区域),它看不见的。要在能量的帮助下(发光,发热,射线等)才能看到。不能把上帝和宇宙扯到一起来平等说,他和它不一样,一个有生命,一个没有。
  所以,你的问题:"既然没有什么东西可以产生于nothing,那么上帝是如何产生的呢?"是一个逻辑混乱了的问题,不能回答。就象问题:“既然这个女人能生小孩,那么这个长像一样的石头女人为什么不能生小孩呢?”。 
  我觉得解释起来,有点困难。主要是要先系统地讲解宇宙和上帝基本的背景知识,才能继续往下讲。你提到的中医和西医,其实也在这里可以得到解释的。我说了大家都是瞎子摸象故事里的瞎子,你们 的争论和那些故事里瞎子的争论是一样的,不会有结果。得找个没有瞎的傍人帮着解释。我懒,不想敲字来先讲基础的背景知识,太费时间精力了。只想在seminar上用嘴来讲。
Jin

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