New consultant has outmoded ideas
Ernest Ruppenthal
Here's an excerpt:
-----------
He has his own take on Sparks Street.
"To me, it's real simple," he said. "Get all the stuff out of the middle of it, open it back up, put cars back on it -- two-way cars, very narrow if you can.
"I think that all of the experimentation of trying to close off streets for pedestrian malls -- I've never seen one work. I don't know why you've left yours in place for so long. If you want retail, bring cars back."
The downtown, he said, is "totally riddled with one-way streets," and needs to bring back two-way traffic to some of them. Metcalfe Street, he said, would be a good place to start.
----------
The full article is online at:
http://www.canada.com/ottawa/story.asp?id=DF405F37-76DC-4531-BDEA-DCB3AACB65D4
tOM Trottier
Ernest Ruppenthal <cf...@flora.org> wrote:
> There's an article in today's Citizien about a consultant the city has hired to give the city a new look. His ideas include opening up the downtown area to more car traffic. There's no mention of cycing or walking but I think it's fair to say that both would be negatively impacted quite
significantly.
>
> Here's an excerpt:
>
> -----------
> He has his own take on Sparks Street.
>
> "To me, it's real simple," he said. "Get all the stuff out of the middle of
> it, open it back up, put cars back on it -- two-way cars, very narrow if you
> can.
>
> "I think that all of the experimentation of trying to close off streets for
> pedestrian malls -- I've never seen one work. I don't know why you've left
> yours in place for so long. If you want retail, bring cars back."
>
> The downtown, he said, is "totally riddled with one-way streets," and needs
> to bring back two-way traffic to some of them. Metcalfe Street, he said,
> would be a good place to start.
Maybe two-way streets would be more friendly to bikes?
> ----------
> The full article is online at:
> http://www.canada.com/ottawa/story.asp?id=DF405F37-76DC-4531-BDEA-DCB3AACB65D4
>
> -
> The cfsc list is run automagically by Majordomo version 1.94.4
> Please send mail questions to owner...@flora.org
> TO UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail the word "unsubscribe" to: cfsc-r...@flora.org
>
---------
2003 Jun 28-30 in Ottawa:
http://www.CanadianCameraConference.ca
tOM Trottier, ICQ:57647974 http://abacurial.com
758 Albert St, Ottawa ON Canada K1R 7V8
+1 613 860-6633 fax:231-6115 N45.412 W75.714
"The moment one gives close attention to anything,
even a blade of grass, it becomes a mysterious,
awesome, indescribably magnificent world in itself --
Henry Miller, 1891-1980
ala...@cfsc.ottawa.on.ca
> to bring back two-way traffic to some of them.
This actually would be a benefit to cyclists and pedestrians. The usual
reason for making a street one-way is to add capacity -- in other words,
to turn it into a car sewer.
A large system of one-way streets obviously makes cycling more awkward, as
well as encouraging motor vehicle traffic. In addition, one-way streets
are a major encouraging factor for the dangerous practice of sidewalk
cycling -- so removing them would make life much better for pedestrians
(and reducing cycling collisions) as well.
Making O'Connor and Metcalfe two-way, as well as Gloucester, Nepean,
Cooper, and Lisgar, would increase access for residents and cyclists and
in general make the downtown more liveable.
In terms of Sparks Street, I disagree with the consultant. I think it's
the adjoining land uses that are the problem -- not enough restaurants and
other evening draws to make the street attractive after 5 p.m. There's a
bunch of reasons for that, including the mall authority and the major
landowners. It may be that the new CBC building has a good effect -- IMHO
it's certainly not the right time to make such a massive change as putting
cars back on the street.
--
Alayne McGregor
ala...@cfsc.ottawa.on.ca
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
-- Voltaire
Ron McKinnon
The article states that the consultant George Dark previously
worked on Orlando and Sarasota, Florida. Now I'm not sure how
those cities fare compared to the rest of Florida, but it's known
as the state in the US with the most bicycle fatalities.
Based solely on that fact I would suggest that this consultant's
work be carefully reviewed.
On May 1 , Ernest Ruppenthal <erup...@rogers.com> wrote:
>
> There's an article in today's Citizien about a consultant the city has hired to give the
city a new look. His ideas include opening up the downtown area to more car traffic.
There's no mention of cycing or walking but I think it's fair to say that both would be
negatively impacted quite significantly.
>
> Here's an excerpt:
>
> -----------
> He has his own take on Sparks Street.
>
> "To me, it's real simple," he said. "Get all the stuff out of the middle of it, open it
back up, put cars back on it -- two-way cars, very narrow if you can.
>
> "I think that all of the experimentation of trying to close off streets for pedestrian
malls -- I've never seen one work. I don't know why you've left yours in place for so
long. If you want retail, bring cars back."
>
> The downtown, he said, is "totally riddled with one-way streets," and needs to bring
back two-way traffic to some of them. Metcalfe Street, he said, would be a good place to
start.
>
> ----------
> The full article is online at:
> <a
href='http://www.canada.com/ottawa/story.asp?id=DF405F37-76DC-4531-BDEA-DCB3AACB65D4'>http://www.canada.com/ottawa/story.asp?id=DF405F37-76DC-4531-BDEA-DCB3AACB65D4</a>
Lisa Moffatt
ala...@cfsc.ottawa.on.ca wrote:
> A large system of one-way streets obviously makes cycling more awkward, as
> well as encouraging motor vehicle traffic. In addition, one-way streets
> are a major encouraging factor for the dangerous practice of sidewalk
> cycling -- so removing them would make life much better for pedestrians
> (and reducing cycling collisions) as well.
>
> Making O'Connor and Metcalfe two-way, as well as Gloucester, Nepean,
> Cooper, and Lisgar, would increase access for residents and cyclists and
> in general make the downtown more liveable.
I agree.
>
>
> In terms of Sparks Street, I disagree with the consultant. I think it's
> the adjoining land uses that are the problem -- not enough restaurants and
> other evening draws to make the street attractive after 5 p.m. There's a
> bunch of reasons for that, including the mall authority and the major
> landowners. It may be that the new CBC building has a good effect -- IMHO
> it's certainly not the right time to make such a massive change as putting
> cars back on the street.
I agree with you here too Alayne. I couldn't believe this was his intention.
What struck me as interesting in the article is that he mentions his ideas for
Sparks Street - siding with motorists here although he makes it sound as though
he is siding with retail (which presumably receive most of their profits from
tourists) and then ends the article by saying that Ottawa has to widen its
sidewalks and change to more two-way streets to accomodate pedestrians -
hypocritical?!
L.
--
Lisa Moffatt
B.A. (Honours) Environmental Studies
Education Coordinator, Can-Bike cycling education program
Citizens for Safe Cycling
251 Bank Street, Suite 504, Ottawa, ON K2P 1X3
Ph: (613) 567-1288 fax: (613) 567-1818
"When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the human race." – H.G.
Wells
Linda Hoad
>> The downtown, he said, is "totally riddled with one-way streets," and needs
>> to bring back two-way traffic to some of them.
>
> This actually would be a benefit to cyclists and pedestrians. The usual
> reason for making a street one-way is to add capacity -- in other words,
> to turn it into a car sewer.
>
Agreed.
> A large system of one-way streets obviously makes cycling more awkward, as
> well as encouraging motor vehicle traffic. In addition, one-way streets
> are a major encouraging factor for the dangerous practice of sidewalk
> cycling -- so removing them would make life much better for pedestrians
> (and reducing cycling collisions) as well.
>
> Making O'Connor and Metcalfe two-way, as well as Gloucester, Nepean,
> Cooper, and Lisgar, would increase access for residents and cyclists and
> in general make the downtown more liveable.
>
> In terms of Sparks Street, I disagree with the consultant. I think it's
> the adjoining land uses that are the problem -- not enough restaurants and
> other evening draws to make the street attractive after 5 p.m. There's a
> bunch of reasons for that, including the mall authority and the major
> landowners. It may be that the new CBC building has a good effect -- IMHO
> it's certainly not the right time to make such a massive change as putting
> cars back on the street.
I agree with the consultant. I have stopped walking along Sparks St.
because it always has vehicles on it - parked or moving (as well as moving
cyclists) The no vehicles rule is not enforced and therefore it is _not_
a true pedestrian mall. A two lane street (one lane in each direction)
with protected parking, lanes wide enough to accomodate cyclists and
wide wide sidewalks would be better for all, I believe.
Linda
> -- > Alayne
McGregor > ala...@cfsc.ottawa.on.ca >
> "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
> -- Voltaire
>
--
Linda Hoad
136 Bayview Road
Ottawa, Ontario
K1Y 2C6
Peter McNichol
>There's an article in today's Citizien about a consultant the city has hired >to give the city a new look. His ideas include opening up the downtown area >to more car traffic. There's no mention of cycing or walking but I think >it's fair to say that both would be negatively impacted quite significantly.
Two way traffic I can support.
This would reduce wrong way riding, and the need for counter flow lanes.
Opening up Sparks street does not make sense.
I would actually like to see some of the market streets closed.
Unlike Sparks street the market has the pedestrian flow to
justify closing the streets to pedestrian traffic.
Cars would park in the parking garages and on the streets around
the market. The shoppers would then walk to the stores. It would
be very similar to a shopping mall. Park your car and walk to
the stores.
It might also be good to have shopping carts available at the parking
lots. The shopping carts could be locked such that you would need a
coin (quarter or lunnie) to release the cart. The coin is returned
when you return the cart and put the lock back in.
Peter McNichol
Lisa Moffatt
Peter McNichol wrote:
> I would actually like to see some of the market streets closed.
> Unlike Sparks street the market has the pedestrian flow to
> justify closing the streets to pedestrian traffic.
I highly doubt store, restaurant and bar owners in the market would go for this.
>
> It might also be good to have shopping carts available at the parking
> lots. The shopping carts could be locked such that you would need a
> coin (quarter or lunnie) to release the cart. The coin is returned
> when you return the cart and put the lock back in.
Hummm, the carts would have to be small - some of the shops in the market are quite tiny and access is very limited. I like this idea though.
What about a blue (yellow) bike program in the market as well??
Brett Delmage
this discussion are getting off topic for this list. These threads should
maybe move to the afo list where they would be more appropriate.
On Thu, 1 May 2003, Peter McNichol wrote:
> Lisa Moffatt wrote:
> > Peter McNichol wrote:
> >
> > > I would actually like to see some of the market streets closed.
> > > Unlike Sparks street the market has the pedestrian flow to
> > > justify closing the streets to pedestrian traffic.
> >
> > I highly doubt store, restaurant and bar owners in the market would go for this.
>
> I agree the store owners do not know what is good for them.
>
> The point is shopping malls work, why is the market any different?
>
> A little convincing and a one year trial might actually work.
>
> This would be an ideal time to raise the subject being it an election
> year.
tOM Trottier
Start with Byward Market and Willam Sts between George and York. These are
mostly car-impassable anyway, and have a huge pedestrian traffic. It would be a
Good Thing if they could be covered over against rain and snow.
tOM
On Thursday, May 01, 2003 at 16:13
Peter McNichol <cf...@flora.org> wrote:
>
>
> Lisa Moffatt wrote:
> >
> > Peter McNichol wrote:
> >
> > > I would actually like to see some of the market streets closed.
> > > Unlike Sparks street the market has the pedestrian flow to
> > > justify closing the streets to pedestrian traffic.
> >
> > I highly doubt store, restaurant and bar owners in the market would go for this.
>
> I agree the store owners do not know what is good for them.
>
> The point is shopping malls work, why is the market any different?
>
> A little convincing and a one year trial might actually work.
>
> This would be an ideal time to raise the subject being it an election
> year.
> -
> The cfsc list is run automagically by Majordomo version 1.94.4
> Please send mail questions to owner...@flora.org
> TO UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail the word "unsubscribe" to: cfsc-r...@flora.org
>
Lisa Moffatt
Linda Hoad wrote:
> I agree with the consultant. I have stopped walking along Sparks St.
> because it always has vehicles on it - parked or moving
Motor vehicle messengers are permitted to drive on Sparks Street from 6am to
10:30am (I believe), while cycle messengers are not permitted to cycle (no are
other cyclists) at all.
Richard Guy Briggs
> Peter McNichol wrote:
> > > Peter McNichol wrote:
> > >
> > > > I would actually like to see some of the market streets closed.
> > > > Unlike Sparks street the market has the pedestrian flow to
> > > > justify closing the streets to pedestrian traffic.
> > >
> > > I highly doubt store, restaurant and bar owners in the market would go for this.
> >
>
> they know what situations generate a profit.
... but may not know/believe that other situations can generate larger profits.
> Lisa Moffatt
slainte mhath, RGB
--
Richard Guy Briggs -- ~\ Auto-Free Ottawa! Canada
<www.TriColour.net> -- \@ @ <www.flora.org/afo/>
No Internet Wiretapping! -- _\\/\%___\\/\% Vote! -- <Green.ca>
<www.FreeSWAN.org>_______GTVS6#790__(*)_______(*)(*)_______<www.Marillion.com>
Peter McNichol
Lisa Moffatt wrote:
>
> Peter McNichol wrote:
>
> > I would actually like to see some of the market streets closed.
> > Unlike Sparks street the market has the pedestrian flow to
> > justify closing the streets to pedestrian traffic.
>
> I highly doubt store, restaurant and bar owners in the market would go for this.
I agree the store owners do not know what is good for them.
The point is shopping malls work, why is the market any different?
Lisa Moffatt
Peter McNichol wrote:
> Lisa Moffatt wrote:
> >
> > Peter McNichol wrote:
> >
> > > I would actually like to see some of the market streets closed.
> > > Unlike Sparks street the market has the pedestrian flow to
> > > justify closing the streets to pedestrian traffic.
> >
> > I highly doubt store, restaurant and bar owners in the market would go for this.
>
> I agree the store owners do not know what is good for them.
See below, its not that they don't know what's good for them, its that they know what
situations generate a profit.
>
>
> The point is shopping malls work, why is the market any different?
Well, the market is a different set up than a shoppign mall to begin with. Also,
metered parking in the market is set at one hour because research has shown that it
allows shops to generate the largest profits.
>
>
> A little convincing and a one year trial might actually work.
I am not sure this is the answer for the market.
>
>
> This would be an ideal time to raise the subject being it an election
> year.
Perhaps.
Vic Gedris
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
On Thu, May 01, 2003 at 03:42:51PM -0400, Peter McNichol wrote:
>=20
> I would actually like to see some of the market streets closed.
How the heck do you expect me to drive my loud crappy car with loud
crappy music in circles around the market if you close the streets??!
;-)
Yes, I would love to see more pedestrian / cycle-friendly planning for
the market too. It's been on my mind for quite a while. It gets
really crowded with cars there... Fortunately, it's *so* crowded that
the traffic usually moves quite slowly and cautiously (in my experience,
anyway).
Cheers,
Vic
--=20
Vic Gedris | Linux and Free Software: http://oclug.on.ca
vic-at-gedris.org | Bikes and HPVs: http://hpv.tricolour.net
http://vic.dyndns.org | GNU Privacy Guard (GPG) Key-ID: D77B43FB
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux)
iD8DBQE+sZdYSUWlN9d7Q/sRAgzJAJwOMEBdAi8JkZmoSlfLweHPb/Yj+gCgj2kx
H0PwOPh6PM8vM8MuaiM9EPQ=
=adyz
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Zachary Howarth
>
> Maybe two-way streets would be more friendly to bikes?
>
I'd put that down as particularly UNlikely, especially if they're "very
narrow", as he suggests for Sparks.
~Zac
Juergen Weichert
If they aren't wide enough to share safely, the bike occupies the entire
lane and the car has to remain behind.
Actually safer than trying to share a lane.
Juergen
At 12:36 PM 5/2/03 -0400, you wrote:
>On Thu, 2003-05-01 at 10:23, tOM Trottier wrote:
>
>>
>> Maybe two-way streets would be more friendly to bikes?
>>
>
>I'd put that down as particularly UNlikely, especially if they're "very
>narrow", as he suggests for Sparks.
>
>~Zac
---------------------------
Juergen Weichert
jue...@acclivity.ca
(613) 746-7685
Acclivity Solutions
More than just Web design...
www.acclivity.ca
Ron McKinnon
In the really real world, the driver gets frustrated waiting behind the
cyclist, guns his engine first chance he gets to pass illegally and
cuts off the cyclist to show him who's boss, sometimes honking and
sometimes shouting obscenities. It happens to all of us and it's
not what I call safe. I prefer wide lanes myself, less conflicts
that way.
Juergen Weichert
Juergen
>-
>The cfsc list is run automagically by Majordomo version 1.94.4
>Please send mail questions to owner...@flora.org
>TO UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail the word "unsubscribe" to: cfsc-r...@flora.org
---------------------------
Bob
Off the wall idea that has been batted about by many in Vancouver:
Above ground bicycle & pedestrian corridors.
Any business on the second floor would like it, as well as any seeking
cheaper "storefront" rent.
Bob.
> "When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the human race." -
H.G. Wells
ala...@cfsc.ottawa.on.ca
> Off the wall idea that has been batted about by many in Vancouver:
> Above ground bicycle & pedestrian corridors.
> Any business on the second floor would like it, as well as any seeking
> cheaper "storefront" rent.
This is currently done in St. Paul MI and Calgary AB, and to a lesser
extent in Winnipeg -- tho just for pedestrians. The main reason given
there is winter.
From my experience in St. Paul and from what I've heard from others, I'd
strongly recommend against it. The effect is to remove life from the
street and make drivers more willing to speed. In addition, I found the
above-ground corridors in St. Paul circuitous, awkward, sometimes
confusing, and sometimes dangerous. Many of them went through private
buildings, meaning they were not guaranteed to be open at all hours.
I'm strongly against segregating pedestrians and cyclists, because it
makes us second-class citizens. We should also be sharing the road right
of way with courtesy and consideration.
Peter McNichol
>
> Hi There.
>
> Off the wall idea that has been batted about by many in Vancouver:
>
> Above ground bicycle & pedestrian corridors.
>
> Any business on the second floor would like it, as well as any seeking
> cheaper "storefront" rent.
Above ground corridors promotes separation.
CfSC promotes integration, and I would agree.
Above ground pedestrian corridors remove pedestrians from the street
life thus making the streets more hostile.
If you separate cyclists from cars then you are saying bicycles do not
belong.
Pathways have their purpose, as they offer a relaxing slow paced ride.
However, I do not believe bike lanes are a separation in the same way.
Bike lanes can make the cyclists feel more comfortable on some roads.
They also help both to coexist without going to full blown separation
by forcing cyclists onto paths.
Peter McNichol
tOM Trottier
<cf...@flora.org> wrote:
> "Bob" <rdhome_-at-_sympatico.ca> said:
> > Off the wall idea that has been batted about by many in Vancouver:
> > Above ground bicycle & pedestrian corridors.
> > Any business on the second floor would like it, as well as any seeking
> > cheaper "storefront" rent.
>
> This is currently done in St. Paul MI and Calgary AB, and to a lesser
> extent in Winnipeg -- tho just for pedestrians. The main reason given
> there is winter.
There is also a pedestrian network in Cedar Rapids Iowa, which was seldom used
when I was there, May -> Dec
> From my experience in St. Paul and from what I've heard from others, I'd
> strongly recommend against it. The effect is to remove life from the
> street and make drivers more willing to speed. In addition, I found the
> above-ground corridors in St. Paul circuitous, awkward, sometimes
> confusing, and sometimes dangerous. Many of them went through private
> buildings, meaning they were not guaranteed to be open at all hours.
>
> I'm strongly against segregating pedestrians and cyclists, because it
> makes us second-class citizens. We should also be sharing the road right
> of way with courtesy and consideration.
Not just status, but access!
tOM