OT: Lehman TRUPS?

[feralcomprehension]

   Anything new on this?  There used to be an intermittent thread on the old board but then I was escorted out without even cleaning up my desk.

Thanks

[littlede...@gmail.com]

The CTs will likely wrap up within a year. There will be a clear outcome. The final tax return will be filed 11/30/2019....go figure....devil

[Big Bruce]

Ticker? Anything I can read? Big Bruce got his bonus recently and needs to throw some money to the wind.... 

What other secrets are you boys hiding from me? 

[littlede...@gmail.com]

LHHMQ, LEHNQ, LEHLQ, LEHKQ. the group below was started by camaro. It is a bit slow nowadays just like on here because people are burnt out from the waiting. If you have a question you can ask it here and there and da devil will try to answer as much as mez can.

Some tidbits.

1. CTs are Trups
2. CTs are quasi debt and equity
3. They have 2 claims a 10B subordinate claim and a guarantee claim
4. Lehman is in chp 11 bk. That is a given just in case goober no no know.
5. The CT preferred named above are not lehman prferreds, the are Ps of the Trust
6. There are 48 million CTs combined. All 4. It barely trades because everyone and da big boys are holding tight

Da devil might miss some points but just off tops of mez heads..

Da play for da devil is da NOLs. The gurantees are not dischargable and are in parity with the most senior preferreds. That is why mez here. LEHMAN emerged from bk and will exit by end of 2019. Da devil is betting on a restructured NOL entity worth 50 plus billion.

Da redemption value for the CTs is 25 each.

https://groups.google.com/forum/m/#!forum/lehmanbrothersinvestordiscussion

[Big Bruce]

Thanks Devil!! I'll review. I'm sure I'll have some Q's.... 

[feralcomprehension]

@LD:  Thanks for the update, appreciated.

@BB:  I found the overall situation 116% impenetrable but I've noticed that LD is very often correct.  I was able to establish that TRUPs in general are structured to be unkillable, but even that was a tough slog.  For me it's a flyer; it'd be sweet (indeed) if it pays off but if I lose it all I'll go back to being a bitter old(ish) man who blames the devil for all his problems ;)  

[littlede...@gmail.com]

Just fyi, do not pay ask. Gtc a penny.09 above bid and wait it out. Unless things start to move. The pps is manipulated. I ve tracked the pattern.

[Big Bruce]

Assuming there's a well funded entity that emerges, what's the risk? 

[Jeff Wood]

Risk? Waiting 10 more years for your money.

[littlede...@gmail.com]

Risk with any play us losing it all...hehehaha

CTs should get a payment regardless. My DD tells me NOL company after exit and CTs will convert to shares. That is my play....25 worth of conversion. Here comes da bullets...on why....

The guarantee

1. On parity with most senior preferreds.

2. Non dischargable.....**...

The above two together puts CTs in front of the line with post POR (exit) transaction, restructure and assets.

Now...goober ask risk...is there a chance above do not come about? Yes.

The is a stipulation that Lehman can "buyout" the guarantee by reissuing the subdebt back to the preferred holders of thr CTs. But, the kicker is it has to br in increments of 25 dollars which is the RV. In other words they are better off redeeming the CTs.

If there is any value post exit in 2019, CTs will be there, i.e the NOLs and other scenarios....

Now what is there is nothing left and no NOL and nothing....not a penny...not likely but hypotheicial....lehman still have to make a payment to the subdebt at less than face value to cure the CTs...enron gave 2.49.....on average the broke as a joke cure is about 10% in all chp 11 bks....worst comes to worst broke as a joke we get a one time payout for 2.50 on average. This is unlikely...but goober asked... dat is a summary...dat is why da devil is in bigtime no matter da wait...its worth da risk...do your dd and as always...go figure...devil

[littlede...@gmail.com]

If there is a well funded entity CTs gets RV. If there is not a well funded entity CTs still likely to make out...CTs are golen or as golden as you can get in investing....go figure...devil

[littlede...@gmail.com]

Da devil is going to kill on da trifecta...dat is da goal...its just a matter of how much...der is no debate. Dd all done...history is now...go figure. Devil

[Big Bruce]

Trifecta being Fannie, Freddie, and Lehman? 

[Wayne Z]

@jeff, Lehman's final tax return will be filed on 11/2019.  The Chapter 11 BK's automatic stay and max time allowed expires in 2020.  At most about another year.  They are not in cship like FnF where there is no timeframe.  

[Wayne Z]

Yes Sir Big Bruce.  Wamu hit big from .004 to .20s.  FnF, I should have traded like LD.  I held and got caught with Lamberth but still up big.  Lehman, I have no doubt will hit too.  I roll with my guy.  So far on the trifecta 2/3.  Lehman as well as "FnF" are the final babies.  We shall see how accurate DA DEVIL is.   The only person taking the other side on the trifecta is JoeStocks and he got hammered LOL.  He is still on IHUB bashing.

[littlede...@gmail.com]

For da CTs, for dose looking to buy in, do you DD.  Da devil is rolling full stream ahead to da end games for da financial crisis era plays, ala DA TRIFECTA.  Its not for everybody but like fnf, da risk reward is once in a life time......1.23m shares goobers....YES...mark it....Da devil is going for it....and its cheap...why not...DD points to a good play of risk reward......at minimal 2.5 is still a massive gain....good luck to us all...FNF....Lenman.....go figure....devil

[Big Bruce]

See below. This looks like the best overview of the play that I could find. Anything worth noting in addition to this? Obviously more DD to come.. 

The recovery for Lehman creditors has been more than $100 billion to date. The TRUPS receiving a creditor recovery is a low probability proposition. However, there is a possibility that the TRUPS can be converted into new equity representing the various profitable operating remnants of Lehman to take advantage of the $50 billion-plus net operating loss that is leftover.

Shortly after the Lehman bankruptcy, those in charge of the liquidation formed a company they named LAMCO to assist in the liquidation of the remaining assets. This wasn’t a small operation, as LAMCO originally had close to 500 employees. The assets in liquidation have exceeded even the most aggressive estimates. In the meantime, LAMCO has become a substantial business, although the exact numbers are difficult to ascertain.

The most logical move forward would be to create a public traded company that would take advantage of the NOLs leftover from Lehman through LAMCO initially, possibly rolling in smart acquisitions over time. This would give former equity, including the TRUPS, a stake in the newly formed company.

The stick in the wheel is the cancellation of debt income that can nullify the NOL. There is precedent through the courts for preservation of the NOLs working around the cancellation of debt income requirements, however.

[littlede...@gmail.com]

Da devil's play is da NOLs but there is more than that....yes yes...dat is da ultimate play but da guarantee and subdebt is a play in itself...either way its a win for da devil.....da devil gets excited talking about lehman...its a 1-25 million play....da devil will take anywhere in dat range but prefer middle to higher....da devil expects lehman to rival wamu on gains....good luck...and as always....go figure.....devil

[seysmont]

What debt is ahead of TRUPS? The trusts are the most junior debt, there is nothing ahead of equity in a trust itself if I understand it correctly, but with LEH they do silly stuff. Is there anything else in a trust, and is the other debt discharged already?

[littlede...@gmail.com]

The CT are subordinate debt. They are considered the lowest of unsecured debt. They are class 10b. Equity is class 12. Basically the are only ahead on equity and a few other sub debts that are allowed claims. But, that is not an issue for me.

The NOL company will he restructured after satisfied in full, then a discharge. Then Lehman exits bk.

1. The CT's are not dischargable
2. They are in parity with the most senior preferreds

1 and 2 is a part of the guarantee in which judge peck validiated in the citi case.

3. They have to cure all debts in order for the bk to end.

4. There are two ways to cure the guarantee.

A. Redeem it ..25 bones
B. Return the subordinate debt to the CT P holders

a. Reissuing back to CTs starts in the increment of 25 bones. So, 25 bones is the minimum
b. Broke as a joke goober style aka insolvent and no no have 1.2 billion = total of all 4 CT RV after discharge....den Lbhi can pay whats left of all remaining assets to the sub debt holders. Ala Enron style...enron got 2.49 for their CTs in da end. On average chp 11 bks if cant meet obligation got about 8-10% as final payout

Therefore, whatever is left after discharge needs to go to the CTs if the bk is ever going to close.

That is what makes CT so deadly in reorgs. They are designed to survive.....go figure....devil

[littlede...@gmail.com]

The play is on the NOLs. They are off balance sheet right now because of the valuation issue between bk and tax law. There is at least 50 plus billion. Dat has always been da devils play...COD. no no matter and is not even an issue. Dat is a long explanation of another day..go figure...devil

[feralcomprehension]

  Where's the risk with NOLs then?  To some extent, I asking because WMIH was also a NOL play but has been stagnant for several (3) years.  You still holding that, or?

Seems like there was talk of the T$ tax cut sharply reducing the value of that asset class.

[littlede...@gmail.com]

Wamu is over for da momo club goober...you play conversion and sell....... .004 cents to .22 cents is a prett good haul...goober you have to plant da seeds....be one if da first...you can still play it now whuch da devil still have wmih...but, goober da big money was going into restructure...anything on wmih or escrow is just gravy for da devil...da goobers saying NOL play is now is da second half goobers....early bird gets da worm....da devil preach plant da seeds...on all plays....oil...to crypto (granted short) to now infrastructure...infra is a big one too....its not just a trump play its a national security play because our infrastructure is older now....

Anyways lots of OT stuff....da point is to get in early before NOL Lamco exits bk...da play will materialize after da discharge.....no no play main street pace...you have to play big boy pace...go figure....devil

[littlede...@gmail.com]

Tax cuts do reduce the NOLs on useage but it all comes down to how big the merger company is and taxable income...da bigger you can use more...da more taxable income you can use more...dont get caught into da tax rate x nol = final value hype...

Ins co and financial services and management firms are all in play for the NOLs.

Just remember uncle warren wanted fannie nols but was denied...there is a difference in value between berkshire or maybe even amazon finance arm than corus bank....go figure...devil

[littlede...@gmail.com]

Useage = percentage.. sorry goobers...da goobers knows by now have to live with da devils perfect spelling and grammar...go figure...devil

[seysmont]

Thanks, LD. My understanding is that what's left of LEH has valid businesses, are those even in play, or they are overshadowed by $50B NOLs?

[littlede...@gmail.com]

Its LBHI. L B Holdings Inc. That is da US parent. Satisfied in full is achieved when there is no more available cash. After we achieved that, then the discharge as mandated by the POR, then we exit bk.

What is not available cash are illuquid assets. NOLs are illiquid assets and can be even seen as a questionable asset in terms of its character. Aside from NOLs are there anymore illiquid assets? If da devil is a betting man da devil will say yes......there is still some things that remains to be seen....we will all know by 11/30/2019....wish we have a drop dead end date for fnf... hehehaha....go figure... devil

[Wayne Z]

This is what joe said on ihub when stockanalyze posted this thread there.

"Oh, my...that was painful reading through those post. I see I have much work ahead on that other board. They must be saved too!"

Joe is here to save us. He have a bashing agenda.

[littlede...@gmail.com]

Lets dont make a circus out of this thread. If the motive is to "safe us" and be destructive to the board then move on. If the purpose is to contribute to a conversation then its ok. We dont have to all agree but stay away from the confrontations.

[seysmont]

Apparently UST hates those trust preferreds because they are a tax dodge in their opinion. Oddly, Mnuchin could be the change of stance on that. Obama didn't give a hoot about any legalities or precedent. Trust's sub debt should have been included in general BK. Another Obama scam.

[jerseyh...@gmail.com]

Hey guys, I am only here to read and continue my education till Lehman is done. Just wanted to introduce myself as to why I am here.

[littlede...@gmail.com]

CT are all now banned under dodd/frank. The sub debt is in the bk as a 10b claim. The CTs also have a guarantee claim. They have two claims.

The Capital Trust is a SPV. It was created to provide cash to Lehman without lehman having to raise money. In return the CT got the sub debt. But, CTs are known to be trouble if not redeemed. They are virtually bullet proof as i described.

The the 4 preferreds we hold are preferreds of the capital trust and not lehman, that is what i meant when i said the CTs our Ps are not in bk

The subdebt is a 10b claim.

[swissch...@gmail.com]

I'm with jersey... wayne too

[seysmont]

I get that it's really sub debt. I saw that UK subs real equity preferreds got paid about 10 cents on the dollar. It really is debt, I get it all. What did happen is that Trustees dropped the ball somewhere, whether by themselves or with UST nudging, which is not beyond reasonable doubt since the trust manager is JPM. I know CTs should get cash distributions, but didn't and likely won't. This is more about bad trustees than actual resolution. Somehow JPM didn't pursue claims properly and CTs got screwed, and it's an abnormal approach. It really should have gotten 10 cents on the dollar or something along those lines. CTs got shafted because of JPM. This only gets NOL and probably not even a big chunk of NOLs because trustees didn't fulfilled their fiduciary duties. Is there a legal challenge? Because here legal challenge can get the money from JPM. They violated their fiduciary duties. 

[jthom...@gmail.com]

LD, are these the tickers you’re invested in?

[littlede...@gmail.com]

Welcome swiss and jersey. Feel free to look at fnf or be a part of any other play here

[littlede...@gmail.com]

Jthom: yes, these are the lehman CTs. The 4 listed ticker. Do your DD. MOMO CLUB did ours...mez like....risk reward good...awesome...go figure...devil

[littlede...@gmail.com]

Seysmont, i do not think CT got shafted. I am perfectly fine with the 10b and guarantee claim. Comment more in a bit

[jerseyh...@gmail.com]

Thanks LD, been on most of the threads but this one. Some VERY good posts here. As you know I am riding the CT train, and loaded with OBS to. Appreciate the shout out.

[littlede...@gmail.com]

Seysmont, CTs originally was slated for class 4.  Its was either 4 or 5, mez forget.  But, when the POR was finalized we are class 10B.  

With that said, I am okay with 10B because class 10 is for sub debts.  I am okay with class 10 because we also have a guarantee claim.  

Our payday will be from the guarantee on the 2 features I described in my previous posts.  Or worst case scenario we get issued back the sub debt at 25 bones or on average 8 -10% up to 50% of RV from other bk chp 11 cases.

Da devil sees 50 plus billion in NOLs as the final NOL Lamco outcome.  There are also still currently losses from affiliates of huge amounts due to settlements, losing cases, normal course of business, etc...Those are also NOLs....The guarantee should take the CTs close to RV per my DD.  

Bits and parts of restructuring are already happening on the foreign entities and ECAPs.  That is another topic.....go figure...devil

[seysmont]

What's our piece of NOLs pie? NOLs have to survive too, they probably will, but may not. $10B is not PV either. Look at WAMU. BlackRock or BlackStone (don't remember which one) raided NOLs with 10% pfds that slowly draining NOLs shell. That's not $10B. It also will get split with others. I'm not saying it's worthless, but NOLs alone could be cheaper than sub penny on the $1 TRUPS are trading at. They are not zero, but JPM clearly dropped the ball here. 

On Monday, July 2, 2018 at 12:31:06 AM UTC-4, littlede...@gmail.com wrote:

Seysmont, CTs originally was slated for class 4.  Its was either 4 or 5, mez forget.  But, when the POR was finalized we are class 10B.  

With that said, I am okay with 10B because class 10 is for sub debts.  I am okay with class 10 because we also have a guarantee claim.  

Our payday will be from the guarantee on the 2 features I described in my previous posts.  Or worst case scenario we get issued back the sub debt at 25 bones or on average 8 -10% up to 50% of RV from other bk chp 11 cases.

Da devil sees 50 plus billion in NOLs as the final NOL Lamco outcome.  The guarantee should take the CTs close to RV per my DD.  

Bits and parts of restructuring is already happening on the foreign entities and ECAPs.  That is another topic.....go figure...devil

[littlede...@gmail.com]

Would da devil prefer class 4 or 5 or whatever it was?  yes, of course...class 4 or 5 would put CTs in the money along with guarantee play.  that is

Would be better than now....but, POR is set, da devil not crying over spill milk.

But, the play is still there as I described.

NOTE: 10B is not 10 billion.  10B is class 10B claim in the BK.  Just want to clear that up.

Our piece of the pie is......as non dischargable and after the discharge, da CTs along with the other non dischargable debt will be da first in linefor the NOLs.  Now you can ask why?

Da devil will throw out another stone cold truth da devil.dont talk about because it no no popular....

[seysmont]

$50B in NOLs is $10B in realizable cash because Trump talks about 20% corporate tax rate. Out of that $10B all the discounts will apply. You will not get $10B valuation of NOL entity. It will be awesome if you get $5B market cap. Plus the crappy trustees or whoever runs it will borrow from some assholes at 10%+ to put the entity in debt to buy at even bigger discount.

[seysmont]

You got me. Why?

On Monday, July 2, 2018 at 12:52:24 AM UTC-4, littlede...@gmail.com wrote:

[littlede...@gmail.com]

Da devil will ask......How much are the NOLs worth to a company with 7 billion taxable income a year vs a company with 1.5 billion?.....get da devil?...

Btw, da correction was not personal.  It was to clear up any misunderstanding if there is any?....da devil dont expect full value of 55 billion plus but a generic formula is also misleading.....da devil is willing to list me plays is not because mez want a goober to buy or pat mez back...goober should know by now...mez playz...its for all da goobers...in der gooberland....TO JUDGE...is da devil right?  is da devil wrong?...da devil in this play just like in fnf wamu oil bitcoin banks tech divies and all da plays is for goobers to JUDGE....dat is da devil for Uz...no bs....no fluff...but just tellz u how it is judgement....da devil making 2-25 million here...dat it...its dat simple...from a simpleton....judge it by 11/30/2019...1.2 or was it 1.4 billion RV for all 4CTs....anyway uz slice it...anywayz a goober dice it...its covered....go figure...devil

[seysmont]

I get that NOLs are an attractive take over target, and here lies a problem. Those who would be interested will cheat like WAMU. JPM already cheated. All of those acquirers will try to saddle new LEH with some terrible liability and trustees will do it for b-ball tickets. Your argument is valid if the rule of law is followed by big corporations, which they just ignore. That's what the valuation implies. I think the risk is NOLs get priced at below the current price of TRUPS. JPM doesn't pay for anything, they take.

[Ace]

What are your thoughts on the OBS, Seys'?  All other common and preferred equity was locked into "One Big Share" back in March 2012, except for the 4 CTs.

One requirement of the NOLs seeing any utilization is a certain percentage of continued ownership of equity, The equity being locked down ensures this, but could said equity expect anything besides ultimate cancellation 7 years after the fact?

We all agree JPM screwed up, and that Tax reform does affect NOLs, One thing I would love to know is the make up of current CT owners.  The volume has ever been as low or lower than F&F pfds, even through the few news events that may have produced relative bubbles in more conventional penny stocks.  That said, if it turned out that 80% of the CTs were held by iHubbers, well, I'd give mine up today.

Money in the CTs should absolutely be considered play money, highly flammable. 

[seysmont]

TRUPS are equity, though. They were on LEH balance sheet as equity. Trusts own debt of LEH, but somehow TRUPS are still equity, even though they shouldn't be and are not LEH equity. My guess is the same charade continues. My understanding is equity is cancelled, am I wrong? I'm still researching it, but my assumption was TRUPS remain as fake equity in LEH because they were "capital" before. 

[Joe Stocks]

LD and all,  

 

This is my first post here in a long time! I am not sure if I am even allowed to. I certainly disagree with your opinion on the Lehman TruPs (CTs). I see no pathway for ever receiving a distribution. I think you have misconstrued the bankruptcy rights and remedies for a distribution. I would be happy to explain and share further but opposing a common viewpoint on this board leaves you open for personal attacks such as one member here that is obsessed with me losing my daughter and granddaughter in a house fire. Unfortunately such bullying attacks go unchallenged and unmoderated by board moderators. 

I have owned the CTs and Lehman unsecured bonds in the past. If you go to my now closed message board on IHUB, Option Traders Cooperative (just Traders Cooperative when I ran it prior to 2010) you will see hundreds of post during the financial crisis. We were trading Lehman CTs prior to the bankruptcy making very profitable trades. I aws the first to bring the trading op in LEhman CTs to IHUB.  Go the site and search LEH in 2008. I also know Fannie and Freddie well. WE also were in the preferreds prior to conservatorship. After c-ship I set up at my own a expense a website for FnF shareholders. It never took off so I closed it. I still am the administrator for the FaceBook 'Fannie and Freddie shareholders page. https://www.facebook.com/fanandfred/ Another poster likes to say I bashed FnF from 20 cents to 22$. Nothing could be further from the truth. What got me in trouble with posters on this board before is I disagreed strongly that FnF would re-instate dividends after the govs net investment was returned. Also that I felt we needed to organize (basis for doing website) and file a lawsuit to see our shares returned to us - this was before the hedge funds got involved and filed suit. And lastly, that I posted my trades and when I took some profits as the position grew...well, doing so was considered blasphemy.  As you can see, I was on point across the board. I did very well with my FnF trades. I currently hold Fannie common shares. 

My specialty for several years was trading distressed debt. I trade for a living. I wrote a published article for Trust Preferreds on Seeking Alpha. I know the instruments well, as well as the bankruptcy process. 

The Lehman CT trade has passed. As the Lehman Disclosure statement says, the CTs will see zero recovery, as does the EPIQ bankruptcy site. There are good reasons why it trades at just a dime. If anyone wants to hear my side of this trade that I will back up with links, let me know. If not, good luck. 

Good trading all,   Joe

[seysmont]

I want to hear your side of it. My guess is that Trustees messed up and the recourse in LEH CTs are against the trustees. 

[littlede...@gmail.com]

As the Lehman Disclosure statement says, the CTs will see zero recovery, as does the EPIQ bankruptcy site. ---- FHFA, Congress and many said FnF is a lost cost.  Their Equity have no value.  Same with Wamu and AIG.  There is a reason why these are called speculative.  We invest here in the Trifecta because we saw the outcome of the Savings and Loans Era and the Dotcom bust.  

There are good reasons why it trades at just a dime------WAMKO was at .004 before it hit and when da devil bought in, I bought my juniors at .20-.60.  My average in the CTs were .03.  What is the point to your statement?  CTs fall in the middle.  Da devil dont mind cheap...actually pps no no matter...its all in the % gains....

The thing is Joe, we are all seasoned here.  If you invest like any retail investor, you will not win.  

I am willing to hear what you have to say as long as you back it all up with a link.  Do not make a comment without any link.  I put this out to you because I saw Wayne's post.  Like it or not.  Your intentions are stated. Da devil dont need savings son, da devil will save you.  This is all your doing and from your past history.  

I want to keep this thread minus the BS.  That is why I left Ihub.  If it gets out of hand, I am going to ask Neo to boot you.  

With that said, Joe edit out all the wayne stuff out of your last post. 

@wayne delete all the tess and jess stuff.  

You get this one shot.  Take time to post what you have to say with Links.  Otherwise, seysmont can go read your threads at IHUB.

I am all for opposing views but not at the expense of cluttering this board with jive going back and forth.  I dont need wayne to tell me what I have and I dont need you to tell me what I dont have.  WHY?  ITS SIMPLE....FROM A SIMPLETON.....Mez itz da devil.....go figure...devil

On Monday, July 2, 2018 at 1:01:32 PM UTC-5, littlede...@gmail.com wrote:

[joseph s]

There is not tons of moderator action here. This is a small board with limited resources.

You should not be attacked in such a personal way.

I'm sorry about that.

We do allow a wide range of posts and don't interfere much unless it is that terrible or repetitive.

Welcome, JoeStocks. I didn't like many of your opinions either. You did tell most of us that we were going to lose $ in pref.

That is my recollection and may be incorrect.

No. I did not think that your opinions were on point. Almost without fail, I thought you were wrong.

You are still welcomed here, irrespective.

[littlede...@gmail.com]

Joseph, not at the expense of this thread.  I am willing to let Joe stay if everyone of his comments follow a link.  Otherwise, I am out.  Why?  I worked hard to build the previous "Lenman" thread.  It had a wealth of info from all sides.  BS and other issued consumed that board and it got deleted.  Thats by gone....it was also popular....If this thread goes down that road, then I am done with it early.  I came on to comment because Feral started it and I thought I would help build it.  I am cool just sleeping and waiting everything out.  

The point is with Joe coming back, whether he NOW agrees or not, is to destroy this thread.  He said it.  Look at Wayne's post!

If I see a post from Joe without a link to support a comment, I am done commenting on the CTs.  

This is not picking on Joe.  This is the result of his reputation.  I think I am being fair given the history and circumstances....For him to say....da goober never bashed fnf is a indictment of his honesty itself

If joe dont want to comply, he dont have to, seymont and others can go to ihub and ask him.....like da devil said....da debate for da trifecta is done this late in da game....its either you in or out....dont botha da devil....da devil will make his....go figure...devil

[seysmont]

I'm reading them anyway. 

[seysmont]

@LD, I see your point. Even regarding your claim, he misconstrued what you said. You never said there will be a distribution. 

[littlede...@gmail.com]

No one ever said 10B will see a distribution.  It is clear as day in the POR....Joe is really good with words and how to manipulate them.....he is even better at the spin after he gets caught.....its funny...but....da devil will leave it at dat...mez no no make this a joe bashing session as da devil wants to avoid all that and da riff raff.....JUST everyone DO YOUR DD.....dat it.....da devil done talking riff raff....da devil will now only answer any question on CTs and offer mez VIEW if wanted.....go figure...devil

[Mayhem]

Wayne - I understand you don't agree with him and he is over-the-top annoying in his dissent, but could you maybe not be so adamant about bringing up his wife and daughter that died in a house fire?  That is deeply personal and in my opinion crosses several lines of decency.

[Joe Stocks]

All,   If I mis-spoke that LD said the CTs would see a distribution I am sorry. Not sure what term he used but the only way to get a recovery from the estate is through declared distribution from the estate. That is the terminology the BK court and Lehman uses. There is no other pathway for seeing a recovery or return on your investment. Even if you think there is an NOLs play it has to come as a distribution from the estate.  My take on the CTs;

1.       BNYM is the trustee. Not JPM. JPM sold their corporate trust division to BNYM in 2006. Corporate trust division, not to be confused with their wealth management trust unit. Look who filed the claim against the estate. It was BNYM. The trustee did nothing wrong. They did everything required of them legally under bankruptcy law. Once BK was filed they were stayed from taking any legal action to collect. They filed the claim, and the court ruled it a valid claim and assigned it class 10b status. https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20060408005021/en/Bank-New-York-Acquire-JPMorgan-Chases-Corporate

2.       The most senior preferreds. There is a legal concept that is something is at parity, it is the same. The CTs ARE the most senior preferreds. But as per the prospectus that only applies to ranking. The CTs are senior to common and traditional preferreds, but junior to senior debt as to liquidation.

Prospectus; https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/806085/000104746905000357/a2149684z424b2.htm

3.       The Trust Preferreds (CTs) are not really a hybrid security – both debt and equity. The CTs are only debt. There is no convertible clause in the prospectus. I challenge anyone to find anything different in the docs. The "hybrid" confusion lies in that the FASB considers them tier one capital, the same as traditional preferreds and common when capital is raised. The reason they are considered tier one on the balance sheet is because dividends can be deferred for up to 5 years and not be in default. The theory is that if an institution gets into financial trouble the 5 years gives them time to cure their problems without having to use cash to payout interest (dividends). As we found during the financial crisis that is not the case. The FASB no longer allows TruPs to be Tier one.  

4.       On the EPIQ Lehman bankruptcy site the Q&A shows this about the CTs; “Response: The Trust Preferred Securities were issued by the non-Debtor entities identified above (the “Trusts”). Based on relevant prospectuses, the sole assets of the Trusts were certain subordinated debt securities (the “Subordinated Securities”) issued by Lehman Brothers Holdings Inc. (“LBHI”). Under the Plan, claims against LBHI on account of the Subordinated Securities have been classified in LBHI Class 10B. Based on the 2013+ Cash Flow Estimates filed on July 23, 2013 [ECF No. 38954], it is unlikely that the Trusts will receive any Distributions from LBHI on account of their class 10B claims. LBHI is not aware of any other assets currently owned or expected to be realized by the Trusts” http://dm.epiq11.com/#/case/LBH/info

When LBHI filed BK all attempts by debtholders to collect are put on hold. They are 'stayed' from taking judiciary action. The trust then files a claim against the estate,  and presents the securities as proof of claim. Once the BK court approves the claim and exits (emerges)from BK the actual subordinated securities and the terms of same become null and void. There is no longer a guarantee. The guarantee has not been discharged, but Lehman is relieved from obligation to perform on it deeming the guarantee worthless. The trust now holds a claim against the estate, and not a debt security. The claim can be sold and transferred. That is why the CTs still trade. Technically, if you buy CT shares here you are buying a claim against the estate. As Lehman states above, distributions are received on account of your class 10b claim, not on account of the now void subordinated security.

5.       But the prospectus says the guarantee is not to be discharged?  The prospectus says in the terms of the prospectus that the “guarantee shall not be discharged”. That is different from the bankruptcy term ‘non-dischargable’.  Certainly the bankruptcy court has jurisdiction to discharge this debt. What the prospectus is saying is that Lehman cannot not discharge their obligation to pay that debt once they make the promise/guarantee.

6.       You say...but it is a guarantee? That is why it is important to see what the guarantee actually says. This is straight from the prospectus as posted here;  “Lehman Brothers Holdings is not required to pay you under the guarantee and the junior subordinated debt securities unless it first makes other required payments.

Lehman Brothers Holdings' obligations under the junior subordinated debt securities will rank junior to all of Lehman Brothers Holdings' senior debt. This means that Lehman Brothers Holdings cannot make any payments on the junior subordinated debt securities if it defaults on a payment of senior debt and does not cure the default within the applicable grace period or if the senior debt becomes immediately due because of a default and has not yet been paid in full. In addition, Lehman Brothers Holdings' obligations under the junior subordinated debt securities will be effectively subordinated to all existing and future liabilities of Lehman Brothers Holdings' subsidiaries.

Lehman Brothers Holdings' obligations under the guarantee are subordinated to all of its other liabilities. This means that Lehman Brothers Holdings cannot make any payments on the guarantee if it defaults on a payment on any of its other liabilities. In addition, in the event of the bankruptcy, liquidation or dissolution of Lehman Brothers Holdings, its assets would be available to pay obligations under the guarantee only after Lehman Brothers Holdings made all payments on its other liabilities.

Lehman Brothers Holdings is not required to pay you under the guarantee if the trust does not have cash available.

The ability of the trust to make payments on the preferred securities is solely dependent upon Lehman Brothers Holdings making the related payments on the junior subordinated debt securities when due.

If Lehman Brothers Holdings defaults on its obligations to make payments on the junior subordinated debt securities, the trust will not have sufficient funds to make payments on the preferred securities. In those circumstances, you will not be able to rely upon the guarantee for payment of these amounts. “

7.       How about them NOLs? There is no NOL play. Don’t take my word. Read what Lehman says in their most current balance sheet; “>Net Operating Losses. The NOLs of the LBHI Tax Group (including Debtor-Controlled Entities) are subject to audit and adjustment by the IRS and primarily expire in or about 2028. Substantially all of the LBHI Tax Group’s current consolidated net operating loss carryovers are attributable to the Debtors. The Plan provides for an orderly liquidation of the Debtors. As previously disclosed in the Company’s Quarterly Financial Report as of March 31, 2012 [Docket No. 29731], the LBHI Tax Group received a private letter ruling from the IRS in connection with the Plan going effective that stated (i) the liquidation of the Debtors for U.S. federal income tax purposes may occur over an extended period, and (ii) the reduction of the LBHI Tax Group’s NOLs as a result of the discharge of debt pursuant to the Plan generally would not occur until completion of the liquidation. Upon completion of the liquidation of the Debtors, all remaining NOLs of the Debtors will be eliminated.” The balance sheet can be found at the EPIQ Lehman bankruptcy site link shown above. Search under dockets using key word “balance”.

8.       More on NOLs. Read and study pages 134 thru 139 of the disclosure statement.
https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/806085/000119312511239866/dex991.htm  If Lehman can't pay the debt because there are no remaining funds, a cancellation of debt instrument is issued to the creditor or debtholder. The IRS basically says that if you cancel a dollar's worth of debt, the NOLs are reduced by a dollar. In the end LBHI will cancel more than $130 billion in debt. That will more than wipe out the NOLs. That is what Wayne and others are missing. They believe that the IRS will somehow allow Lehman to cancel debt, thereby allowing the creditor to use that cancelled debt as a deduction on their taxes, and still use the NOLs for reducing taxes in a newly capitalized Lehman. That is called double dipping, and that is why it will not happen. And that is why Lehman even issued a statement saying that will not happen, that all remaining NOLs will be eliminated. There are other obstacles for the NOLs being used as shown in Section 382 of the IRS tax code; https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/26/382

9.       The date that some claim for November of 2019 for a final tax return has no basis that I can find. Perhaps someone can provide a link? 

10. Some say the low share price and lack of volume means big holders are hanging on and not letting go. That is not market place common sense. Shares will rise along as there are buyers. There are few that want to buy these shares. 

Stock message trading boards should be a resource for the discovery of profitable trading ideas, discussion, and debate.  Not personal attacks. If I disagree with you it is not because I don't like you. It is just my opinion. But, in the case of these CTs, if you can read the disclosure statement, the modified plan of liquidation, and the balance sheet it is 100% certain that the CTs will see zero recovery. I know, we all would like to see a return to the financial crisis to pick up shares for pennies and sell for multi-dollars but that time is over for Lehman CTs. Like LD says, do your own DD. I am just trying to help with the process and balance the discussion. And don't worry. I am not going to spend a lot of time here. 

Good trading,   Joe 

[seysmont]

Distribution is clearly cash distribution for the purposes of satisfying debt obligation. They don't expect cash distributions for 10B class. But in order for NOLs to remain, they should avoid debt cancellation. So it's straight forward to see that NOL entity will be floated eventually with all NOLs intact.Trusts get NOLs. TRUPS are equity in trusts. I don't know what not to get here. The residual with NOLs and whatever intangibles will be the end result of those CTs. My issue is what % and what is the final level of NOLs. It's not how they will be worked out but the fact that no COD has to occur to save $1.2B in NOLs that would result in COD. Something is definitely coming on emergence from Ch 11. The question is what and how much.

[jthom...@gmail.com]

LD, which of the four of the series is best in your opinion to establish a position? With fnf there’s the pref. Vs. common. If I understand correctly all four are the same? Still which in your opinion?

I’m also trying to understand this as I’m reading....

These series are trading between .06-.12 right now and are guaranteed to pay out to $25 end of 2019?

I like contrarian plays and am in with a mix of fnf c’s and p’s for fnf. This Lehman play is part of your trifecta. What is the third part of the trifecta (and symbols please).

I don’t add much in the way of analysis, but I love these boards and enjoy surrounding myself (albeit online) with people who have a rich knowledge base. Thank you all for letting me be a fly on the wall and an occasional ‘contributor’ :)

LD, also does Camaro run the Lehman board? I’ve tried being added to the group.

Also NOL? Net operating loss?

Thank you for your time!

[seysmont]

The other unknown is the date for emergence from Ch 11. That I haven't seen anywhere besides LD. 

Honestly, I think the resolution is capped at $1.2B in NOLs (and corresponding % of the new Co) will flow to CTs because they can wipe out $1.2B in NOLs. That's whatever the current corporate tax rate is discounted. I doubt par unless the TRUPS become common equity due to a quirk of the common being completely wiped out and all residual NOLs are left to TRUPS. I don't know what chances this has of occurring, but if it does, it's huge.

On Monday, July 2, 2018 at 5:19:21 PM UTC-4, Joe Stocks wrote:

[littlede...@gmail.com]

All,   If I mis-spoke that LD said the CTs would see a distribution----Like da devil said...spin time....I am sorry. Not sure what term he used but the only way to get a recovery from the estate is through declared distribution from the estate. That is the terminology the BK court and Lehman uses. There is no other pathway for seeing a recovery or return on your investment. Even if you think there is an NOLs play it has to come as a distribution from the estate.  My take on the CTs;

1.       BNYM is the trustee. Not JPM. JPM sold their corporate trust division to BNYM in 2006. Corporate trust division, not to be confused with their wealth management trust unit. Look who filed the claim against the estate. It was BNYM. The trustee did nothing wrong. They did everything required of them legally under bankruptcy law. Once BK was filed they were stayed from taking any legal action to collect. They filed the claim, and the court ruled it a valid claim and assigned it class 10b status. https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20060408005021/en/Bank-New-York-Acquire-JPMorgan-Chases-Corporate -----To da devil, it dont matter at this point who is the trustee.  Da final return is next year.

2.       The most senior preferreds. There is a legal concept that is something is at parity, it is the same. The CTs ARE the most senior preferreds. But as per the prospectus that only applies to ranking. The CTs are senior to common and traditional preferreds, but junior to senior debt as to liquidation.

Prospectus; https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/806085/000104746905000357/a2149684z424b2.htm---As of now, the CTs are only preferreds of the CT Trust.   That is all that matters is the rankings.  What else do you want aside from priority.  Da play is after discharge.  Da devil said there is something dat he wants to say but did not because of it being sensitive.  It relates to this.  Da devil believes there is a possibility equity will be discharged too.  The non discharable debt are qualifying debt that will remain after the discharge which is required by the POR.   Non dischargable debt holders will get the NOL Lamco (just in name) and the NOL.  I bring up the parity is to show even if equity is not discharged, CTs is still in parity with the most senior preferreds.  So, your argument against others does not apply to me here.  Like #1.  So?  Wayne is my friend and I know he talks my stuff on IHUB but, wayne aint da devil goober.....

3.       The Trust Preferreds (CTs) are not really a hybrid security – They act.  There is no definition saying they are.  Their character says they act like Hybrids and i agree.  They do.  You cant argue that.  both debt and equity. The CTs are only debt.- fine with me, see above... There is no convertible clause in the prospectus. -  I challenge anyone to find anything different in the docs. The "hybrid" confusion lies in that the FASB considers them tier one capital, the same as traditional preferreds and common when capital is raised. The reason they are considered tier one on the balance sheet is because dividends can be deferred for up to 5 years and not be in default. The theory is that if an institution gets into financial trouble the 5 years gives them time to cure their problems without having to use cash to payout interest (dividends). As we found during the financial crisis that is not the case. The FASB no longer allows TruPs to be Tier one.  --all mumbo jumbo...dont care...dont apply to da devil---see above.

4.       On the EPIQ Lehman bankruptcy site the Q&A shows this about the CTs; “Response: The Trust Preferred Securities were issued by the non-Debtor entities identified above (the “Trusts”). Based on relevant prospectuses, the sole assets of the Trusts were certain subordinated debt securities (the “Subordinated Securities”) issued by Lehman Brothers Holdings Inc. (“LBHI”). Under the Plan, claims against LBHI on account of the Subordinated Securities have been classified in LBHI Class 10B. Based on the 2013+ Cash Flow Estimates filed on July 23, 2013 [ECF No. 38954], it is unlikely that the Trusts will receive any Distributions from LBHI on account of their class 10B claims. LBHI is not aware of any other assets currently owned or expected to be realized by the Trusts” http://dm.epiq11.com/#/case/LBH/info----why are you keep bringing up distributions and da devil?  Seysmont answered this....

When LBHI filed BK all attempts by debtholders to collect are put on hold. They are 'stayed' from taking judiciary action. The trust then files a claim against the estate,  and presents the securities as proof of claim. Once the BK court approves the claim and exits (emerges)from BK the actual subordinated securities and the terms of same become null and void. There is no longer a guarantee. The guarantee has not been discharged, but Lehman is relieved from obligation to perform on it deeming the guarantee worthless. The trust now holds a claim against the estate, and not a debt security. The claim can be sold and transferred. That is why the CTs still trade. Technically, if you buy CT shares here you are buying a claim against the estate. As Lehman states above, distributions are received on account of your class 10b claim, not on account of the now void subordinated security.--more mombo jumbo...dont apply to da devil....maybe someone else you are arguing with on ihub.  I also have some thing to say about the sub debt..will not retype.  

5.       But the prospectus says the guarantee is not to be discharged?  The prospectus says in the terms of the prospectus that the “guarantee shall not be discharged”. That is different from the bankruptcy term ‘non-dischargable’.  They are talking about the bk term non dischargable.   If they use discharge or non discharge in tax law, it refers to BK.  There is no non discharge or discharge used in tax law that do not refer to BK.  I am certain of that.Certainly the bankruptcy court has jurisdiction to discharge this debt. ---they sure do What the prospectus is saying is that Lehman cannot not discharge their obligation to pay that debt once they make the promise/guarantee....huh?  its a contract not a promise being made....The non dischargability remains in this bk or any other bk where there is this type of language.  You think Lehman is the only Bk with CTs with Non dischargable clauses?  No.  You are stretching way too far here....Enron CTs are non dischargable...that is a diff story....

6.       You say...but it is a guarantee? That is why it is important to see what the guarantee actually says. This is straight from the prospectus as posted here;  “Lehman Brothers Holdings is not required to pay you under the guarantee and the junior subordinated debt securities unless it first makes other required payments. --Like I said in my earlier post...CTs are non dischargable and if they can pay it after the discharge, they pay with what is left.  On average its 5-10% up to 50% on da dollar....If there is any money they have to pay the CTs first.  no worries....Da devil is in da NOL camp.  Even if no NOLs da devil like mez chances with 5-10% up to 50% on average on CTs.  Do your DD.  I did.  That is why da devil says....read joeyboy....da devil is making 2-25 million on da CTs.  Its dat simple.....DISTRIBUTION STUFF

Lehman Brothers Holdings' obligations under the junior subordinated debt securities will rank junior to all of Lehman Brothers Holdings' senior debt. This means that Lehman Brothers Holdings cannot make any payments on the junior subordinated debt securities if it defaults on a payment of senior debt and does not cure the default within the applicable grace period or if the senior debt becomes immediately due because of a default and has not yet been paid in full. In addition, Lehman Brothers Holdings' obligations under the junior subordinated debt securities will be effectively subordinated to all existing and future liabilities of Lehman Brothers Holdings' subsidiaries. 

Lehman Brothers Holdings' obligations under the guarantee are subordinated to all of its other liabilities. This means that Lehman Brothers Holdings cannot make any payments on the guarantee if it defaults on a payment on any of its other liabilities. In addition, in the event of the bankruptcy, liquidation or dissolution of Lehman Brothers Holdings, its assets would be available to pay obligations under the guarantee only after Lehman Brothers Holdings made all payments on its other liabilities. 

Lehman Brothers Holdings is not required to pay you under the guarantee if the trust does not have cash available. ---last tree paragraph....SO?   Da devil can read da perspectus unless you modified someding there.....ALL DISTRIBUTION STUFF

The ability of the trust to make payments on the preferred securities is solely dependent upon Lehman Brothers Holdings making the related payments on the junior subordinated debt securities when due. ---blah blah...so...this is all DISTRIBUTION stuff....why post to da devil..mix in a little fact and confuse.....HEHEHAHA......

If Lehman Brothers Holdings defaults on its obligations to make payments on the junior subordinated debt securities, the trust will not have sufficient funds to make payments on the preferred securities. In those circumstances, you will not be able to rely upon the guarantee for payment of these amounts. “------re-issue da subdebt....da devil okay with that too....

 

7.       How about them NOLs? There is no NOL play. Don’t take my word. Read what Lehman says in their most current balance sheet; --Sure and abolish FNF...AIG is done...WAMU?“>Net Operating Losses. The NOLs of the LBHI Tax Group (including Debtor-Controlled Entities) are subject to audit and adjustment by the IRS and primarily expire in or about 2028. Substantially all of the LBHI Tax Group’s current consolidated net operating loss carryovers are attributable to the Debtors. The Plan provides for an orderly liquidation of the Debtors. As previously disclosed in the Company’s Quarterly Financial Report as of March 31, 2012 [Docket No. 29731], the LBHI Tax Group received a private letter ruling from the IRS in connection with the Plan going effective that stated (i) the liquidation of the Debtors for U.S. federal income tax purposes may occur over an extended period, and (ii) the reduction of the LBHI Tax Group’s NOLs as a result of the discharge of debt pursuant to the Plan generally would not occur until completion of the liquidation. Upon completion of the liquidation of the Debtors, all remaining NOLs of the Debtors will be eliminated.” The balance sheet can be found at the EPIQ Lehman bankruptcy site link shown above. Search under dockets using key word “balance”.  ---Da devil will raise....there is more than 50 billion in NOLs at least 100 billion now with losses to affiliates....NOLs is a big nasty topic...not going to comment on here....do your DD....dat all...Also, da devil wnet over this way too many times...maybe when da devil have free time....

8.       More on NOLs. Read and study pages 134 thru 139 of the disclosure statement. -----
https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/806085/000119312511239866/dex991.htm  If Lehman can't pay the debt because there are no remaining funds, a cancellation of debt instrument is issued to the creditor or debtholder. The IRS basically says that if you cancel a dollar's worth of debt, the NOLs are reduced by a dollar. In the end LBHI will cancel more than $130 billion in debt. That will more than wipe out the NOLs. That is what Wayne and others are missing. They believe that the IRS will somehow allow Lehman to cancel debt, thereby allowing the creditor to use that cancelled debt as a deduction on their taxes, and still use the NOLs for reducing taxes in a newly capitalized Lehman. That is called double dipping, and that is why it will not happen. And that is why Lehman even issued a statement saying that will not happen, that all remaining NOLs will be eliminated. There are other obstacles for the NOLs being used as shown in Section 382 of the IRS tax code; https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/26/382---COD is not an issue...see all da rules...Joe at da end, you do know there will be adjustments to the Liab subj to compr. line item right?  I dont know what it is and it really dont matter....on top of that...there is 48 billion more losses now from affiliates and that is not even close to be zeroed out.  NOL is huge...da devil will talk about it when da devil have time....but da devil disagree...dat all...

9.       The date that some claim for November of 2019 for a final tax return has no basis that I can find. Perhaps someone can provide a link?   It is in a court filing on da docket....not sure which one.....look it up....it is there...even if not it ends in 2020 exp date a few months later....LOL....what is da point.....look it up.....

10. Some say the low share price and lack of volume means big holders are hanging on and not letting go. That is not market place common sense. Shares will rise along as there are buyers. There are few that want to buy these shares.   Da devil dont care about share prices...da devil care about volume....i am not just saying that....goobers hear da devil all da time.....like da devil said....da devil bought wamu WAMKQ at .004 sold at .22.....fnf initial average .40 sold and traded many time over on da way up and down and up and down.....high $22.  Lehman average idk 3-4 cents....whatever....and your point?

Stock message trading boards should be a resource for the discovery of profitable trading ideas, discussion, and debate.  Not personal attacks. If I disagree with you it is not because I don't like you. It is just my opinion. But, in the case of these CTs, if you can read the disclosure statement, the modified plan of liquidation, and the balance sheet it is 100% certain that the CTs will see zero recovery. I know, we all would like to see a return to the financial crisis to pick up shares for pennies and sell for multi-dollars but that time is over for Lehman CTs. Like LD says, do your own DD. I am just trying to help with the process and balance the discussion. And don't worry. I am not going to spend a lot of time here. 

Good trading,   Joe ---DONT FORGET YOU ARE HERE TO SAVE US AGAIN...JUST LIKE FNF ;)....go figure...devil

[littlede...@gmail.com]

LD, which of the four of the series is best in your opinion to establish a position? With fnf there’s the pref. Vs. common. If I understand correctly all four are the same? Still which in your opinion? 

*****There is no commons....All 4 are da same but da devil likes Ks....bid for da one with da highest spread.....

I’m also trying to understand this as I’m reading.... 

These series are trading between .06-.12 right now and are guaranteed to pay out to $25 end of 2019?  

********NO.....No guarantee to payout at 25.  LOL.  Nothing is guaranteed in life.....da devil expects RV upon discharge and  about 10% of RV in worst case, return of da subdebt....

I like contrarian plays and am in with a mix of fnf c’s and p’s for fnf. This Lehman play is part of your trifecta. What is the third part of the trifecta (and symbols please).  

****** Lehman, wamu and FNF....

I don’t add much in the way of analysis, but I love these boards and enjoy surrounding myself (albeit online) with people who have a rich knowledge base. Thank you all for letting me be a fly on the wall and an occasional ‘contributor’ :) 

LD, also does Camaro run the Lehman board? I’ve tried being added to the group. 

*****yes.

Also NOL? Net operating loss? ****Yes

[swissch...@gmail.com]

This little devil guys is nice... he made a point... Everything joe argues about is directed towards distributions, we all know we wont get those... hmmm

On Thursday, June 28, 2018 at 6:02:43 PM UTC-7, feralcomprehension wrote:

   Anything new on this?  There used to be an intermittent thread on the old board but then I was escorted out without even cleaning up my desk.

Thanks

[littlede...@gmail.com]

seysmont: 1.2 billion or was it 1.4 billion is the RV...whats 200 mil in da grand scheme of dings hehehaha.......go figure....devil

[seysmont]

Originally it was $1.2B. If it gets $1B in NOLs it a win for everyone at this point.Below the current price the holders should say COD and be done, but again, the problem is trustees. They suck. In the absence of bad will it should settle at massive premium to the current price. But trusts are the debt and do the negotiation. This is all indirect holdings. 

Is there a possibility that CTs get more than $1.2B in NOLs? This is really the only remaining equity that's not equity.

[littlede...@gmail.com]

Ok.  Got it.  

BTW.... DA DEVIL got the 11/30/2019 final tax return date from da dockets on a filing.  Which one, da devil dont know anymore.  I am positive I saw it when i was on the plane.  I believe its a part of the docket that lists the closed subs recently.....THEREFORE JOESTOCKS, look there.  Even if da devil needs bifocals and is wrong,  the POR ends in 2020 which is a few months away from 11/2019.  So, it dont really matter.  But, I am sure its 11/2019 though because I was excited to see it because that is NEWS.  A final return is NEWS.....go figure...devil

On Monday, July 2, 2018 at 10:02:34 PM UTC-5, seysmont wrote:

Originally it was $1.2B. If it gets $1B in NOLs it a win for everyone at this point.Below the current price the holders should say COD and be done, but again, the problem is trustees. They suck. In the absence of bad will it should settle at massive premium to the current price. But trusts are the debt and do the negotiation. This is all indirect holdings. 

Is there a possibility that CTs get more than $1.2B in NOLs? This is really the only remaining equity that's not equity.  Da devil dont know...da devil will be happy with RV and anyding more dan that is gravy.

[Joe Stocks]

The final chapter of the NOLs has already been written. The disposition of them has already been decided. If you read the various documents and IRSC section 382 you all would see this to be true. 

LD says that the NOLs continue to increase through the liquidation process. But the disclosure statement says "the Debtors could incur a material amount of federal income tax unless (1) the Debtors’ assets are distributed pursuant to the Plan on or before the date of such ownership change or (2) the amount of the annual limitation (taking into account the increase therein for certain recognized built-in gains) is large enough to permit the LBHI Group to utilize an amount of NOL carryforwards and other attributes sufficient to offset such income tax." page 138) Lehman is saying that if they were not able to use the NOLs during liquidation they would incur high federal income taxes. They can't be increasing NOLs and at the same time having big tax liabilities. The process has been extended to maximize returns for the creditors. There investments have mostly gone up in value since the financial crisis. Selling them for more than likely indicate gains, and not losses. Keep in mind that Lehman now has low overhead. No sales staff. No marketing staff, etc. Money coming in, but relatively low operating expenses. Even high attorney fees are relatively low for the size of the estate. 

If you read the modified plan of liquidation ("consistent with the intended treatment of the Plan as a plan of liquidation for federal income tax purposes") you will see that it a plan of liquidation where everything gets sold. The plan even goes as far as saying if anything is left it is to be donated to charity. Now think about that. There is no offices, no employees. No one to carry on anything for Lehman. No advocate for the CT holders. Also keep in mind that the liquidation plan is being run by management put in place by the creditors committee. The NOLs belong to equity. The creditors committee only concern is to maximize returns to the creditors. That is why they nixed the LAMCO plan to partner with another entity. 

So as noted by lehman in the disclosure statement and other is they asked the IRS is they could keep Lehman in the hands of equity throughout the liquidation process so they could use the NOLs to offset gains. The IRS agree but also the IRS said any remaining NOLs at the end of the liquidation would be eliminated. Lehman states that themselves. And remember, when I say Lehman we are talking about Alvarez and Marsal who is managing the liquidation that has no incentive to return anything to equity, and only to maximize distributions to the creditors. 

The CTs have a class 10b claim against the estate. That is all they have. There is absolutely 100% no pathway for seeing any recovery. The disclosure statement states that. The bankruptcy EPIQ site Q&A states that. And if you read all that docs, including the balance sheets, and understand the bankruptcy process as to liquidation, common sense tells you that. Thinking there is some obscure way to see a recovery outside the bk process is an inefficient use of imagination and an exercise in fantasy.

[skibrian]

This is way of topic.

There are other boards to go this far down the rabbit hole with non GSE discussion

[Joe Stocks]

Ski,    That 2nd post of mine will be my last last post on this topic. I saw what was being posted about the Lehman CTs and saw others interested, and thought I should share the other side of the trade. I am going to crawl back in to my cave now. Hope all is well with you! Warm regards,   Joe

[joseph s]

Let me say this.  We all need to be cognizant that attacks calling someone dumb, ignorant, etc on a stock position is ok.  What is not ok is attacking personally like what I saw on this thread earlier.  It will not be tolerated.  

Bringing up deaths of family members is not acceptable in anger in hatred and I swear that if it continues, I will consult with the other moderator about further actions.

[littlede...@gmail.com]

Drop it Joseph, let it die.

[Duncan Macleod "Beta"]

L Devil- thank you for alll your contributions

[littlede...@gmail.com]

I told you Joe. No link no response. I am not playing your games. You can take that game you play back to ihub.....go figure ..devil

[Ace]

I'm just stepping in to loudly pat myself on the back for not engaging [further] in this thread.  Good job me!  

Except dammit, here I am.

Yes, let this one settle into the silt.  

Waynerz, the barest sliver of schadenfreude may be natural at times, but we do expect ourselves to both accept and control our natural inclinations.  Ignoring the rest of whatever 'karma' is involved, you don't need to rack up your own tab by being merciless here, whether it happened or not.  Don't apologize, but do deeply consider stopping, and let someone else react to Joe.  You know I used to get into it with him back in the early days, but it's not worth disrespect to the dead or grieving, again, whether it happened or not.

[littlede...@gmail.com]

You are welcome Beta.  Unfortunately, this will be my last on this topic on this thread.  I told Joseph, as he allowed him to stay, if Joestocks stays and posts his BS without a link even one of them, I am done.  I have to keep my word.  I am not dealing with BS and frankly, just like I am hearing commons FnF folks tell me they regret rolling pure commons on FNMA with Cat, there were FnF holders who told me they lost out on the FnF run because of JoeStocks bashing of FnF.  

@ Joseph, what do you tell those people?  Its different if we dont know a known basher.  You can have all the high morals sympathy shit.  Wayne even post on one his threads that JoeStocks is here on this board to SAVE US, , meaning bash.   Joe said it himself.  If you are not here to contribute, then why are you here?  None of us need saving Joseph.  Joe is a loser who have no life and too much time and likely no friends.  That is why he is online.  Are you going to listen to his advise?  He said he is a DISTRESS DEBT SPECIALIST, WTF?  Let da devil tell you something Joseph, whoever claims they are a specialist or a guru is NOT!  Its like a nickname.  Being a Specialist or Guru is given to you, not self proclaimed.    One thing that pissed off da devil from da devils original crew is da name....Millionaires Club with Sage and those clowns with to high egos.  Good smart people but clowns.  Chances are a millionaires club have no millionaires in it LOL.  Anyways, that is mez vent.

Da devil will say this, and all da goobers can mark this post.  Da devil is making 2-25 million bones on the CTs.  Da devil will put all what da devil said on this thread here as a mark for goobers to Judge.   That is how da devil roll......Da MOMO club picks and DD is impeccable.  Da devil stand by the trifecta.  Da Trifecta will be da devil's legacy in the financial crisis era.....Book it goober....go figure....devil

[jerseyh...@gmail.com]

I am new here, some of you know me. I just want to post my 2 cents. This is a great thread with many good comments being posted by smart people. I am just here to read learn and follow along. Dont let this thread go down the tubes. Like LD says, and I will say, I AM GOING to make money on this. I have been in since the start. Yes, its tiring, the wait. But I am reading things I never heard before. I like it. Mr. Moderator, please dont let this thread get screwed up. If Joe Stocks is causing this, you know what to do, toss him. I dont need his salvation either. And yes, for a fact, he did make comment to save us, or some such nonsense on the HUB. He us the sand in the gears. My opinion.

[Wayne Z]

I warned them Jersey, a few days ago!  

[skibrian]

Wayne... I'm not qualified to speak on this topic... where did you get that i support anybody's views?

I just asked the conversation be taken to another board.

I'm cool with Lehman updates, but it shouldn't dominate a gse board.

Calm down Wayne. I'm the least flammable person in this thread lol

[Wayne Z]

So LD you are done posting on the CTs?  WTF?  This is bullshit.  Fuck this!

Thanks Joseph!  Another Lehman CT thread goes down the tubes!

[mhill_fin]

This is not a Lehman board. I'm not going to babysit any OT Lehman infighting bullshit. You guys be civil and figure this shit out yourselves. Looks like Joe Stocks is gone.

You got GSE quabbles, I'll look at it, but not going to be the judge on who's trying to fuck who with Lehman stuff.

[Wayne Z]

What are you talking about? Its obvious a moderator already took a side.

[skibrian]

@Wayne

Are you talking to someone else or still insinuating I'm taking sides (falsely)

[fwc...@gmail.com]

First, thank you LD, Lehman CT/debt is beyond my pay grade to DD, but I’m trying to learn. I’ve really grown to appreciate your posting thoughts. They’re reasoned and always a throughful view. I followed you all here from MTG/RDN yahoo commons board. I started buying the fannies at .63, late to you all I believe, pfd’s even later. Swapping mostly out to pfrds at a good exchange when commons would have had to go to $15+ to be at parity. I followed LD to Lehman CT’s after his post over a year ago, bought a good position. The darn CT’s are so cheap to realitive value that why wouldn’t someone consider a position after DD. Personally I think Joe is either a paid shill or a nobody. Why would anyone waste so much of his time on an investment they have no position on. LD, I certainly respect your stand, you’ve offered good conversation, sorry to lose any future comments you may have. Heck I took statistics upper level at Berkeley with high grade, BS in finance, a CFP, 40 years of tech business experience, led two turnarounds and 2nd on my first one. I’ve had
my own business now going on my 15th year. These CT’s are tough to understand with both the legal and then deciphering the obtruse financials. A very smart M&A guy once told me buy the biggest business you can because you’ll have the most options for success. Lehman and the CT’s fit that concept. Scale a position that can really be great return for an amount that is a mere fraction of your portfolio. Joe doesn’t seem to understand that risk/reward which makes me think he’s a hired gun.
There’s a Google Lehman board and of course iHub. Joe over dominates the conversation on iHub with nothing new. He should be moderated away here, he has a venue at this point. This recent review has been the most succinct to date.

[joseph s]

I will ALWAYS delete posts that delight in the death of close family members.

I personally hate Joe Stocks. But. He is a human being and those types of hateful posts will not be tolerated.

I am not going to be told how to moderate the board. I do very little and will likely continue to do very little. Board behavior is not expected to be perfect. I just happened to see the post delighting in death of a close loved one. Not allowed by me.

I am not a babysitter. Don't have time to babysit.

[joseph s]

Agree with mhill on leh, too.