passivity

[anonymous FI]

how can passive people get better? given they'll be passive about any
proposed improvement process.

[anonymous FI]

On Aug 19, 2016, at 14:06 PM, anonymous FI

<anonymousfa...@gmail.com> wrote:

> how can passive people get better? given they'll be passive about any
> proposed improvement process.

i don’t know


Jordan

[anonymous FI]

On Aug 19, 2016, at 14:20 PM, anonymous FI

<anonymousfa...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Aug 19, 2016, at 14:06 PM, anonymous FI
> <anonymousfa...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> how can passive people get better? given they'll be passive about any
>> proposed improvement process.
>
> i don’t know

do you want to know? have you tried to know? done anything to figure it
out?

are you passive? sometimes? ever? got any problems in that area?

do you think an answer to my question would help you personally? a lot
or a little? and would it be super useful for any people you know that
you'd like to help?

[anonymous FI]

On Aug 19, 2016, at 14:23 PM, anonymous FI

<anonymousfa...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Aug 19, 2016, at 14:20 PM, anonymous FI
> <anonymousfa...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Aug 19, 2016, at 14:06 PM, anonymous FI
>> <anonymousfa...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> how can passive people get better? given they'll be passive about
>>> any proposed improvement process.
>>
>> i don’t know
>
> do you want to know?

yes

> have you tried to know? done anything to figure it out?

i have thought about it and tried to figure it out that way

i have read some rand & some of Elliot’s blog posts

i have used introspection to try to figure out what would help me be
less passive

> are you passive? sometimes? ever? got any problems in that area?

yes i am passive. a lot.

i have a lot of problems in that area.

> do you think an answer to my question would help you personally?

yes

> a lot or a little?

a lot

> and would it be super useful for any people you know that you'd like
> to help?

yes


Jordan

[anonymous FI]

On Aug 19, 2016, at 15:36 PM, anonymous FI

<anonymousfa...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Aug 19, 2016, at 14:23 PM, anonymous FI
> <anonymousfa...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Aug 19, 2016, at 14:20 PM, anonymous FI
>> <anonymousfa...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Aug 19, 2016, at 14:06 PM, anonymous FI
>>> <anonymousfa...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> how can passive people get better? given they'll be passive about
>>>> any proposed improvement process.
>>>
>>> i don’t know
>>
>> do you want to know?
>
> yes
>
>> have you tried to know? done anything to figure it out?
>
> i have thought about it and tried to figure it out that way
>
> i have read some rand & some of Elliot’s blog posts
>
> i have used introspection to try to figure out what would help me be
> less passive

did any of this make progress?

if so, what's some of the progress?

if not, what were some problems you ran into? what didn't work?

>> are you passive? sometimes? ever? got any problems in that area?
>
> yes i am passive. a lot.
>
> i have a lot of problems in that area.

any ideas about why?

do you think you have typical conventional problems about passivity, or
that your problems are different?

[Jordan Talcot]

On Aug 19, 2016, at 15:38 PM, anonymous FI

<anonymousfa...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Aug 19, 2016, at 15:36 PM, anonymous FI
> <anonymousfa...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Aug 19, 2016, at 14:23 PM, anonymous FI
>> <anonymousfa...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Aug 19, 2016, at 14:20 PM, anonymous FI
>>> <anonymousfa...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Aug 19, 2016, at 14:06 PM, anonymous FI
>>>> <anonymousfa...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> how can passive people get better? given they'll be passive about
>>>>> any proposed improvement process.
>>>>
>>>> i don’t know
>>>
>>> do you want to know?
>>
>> yes
>>
>>> have you tried to know? done anything to figure it out?
>>
>> i have thought about it and tried to figure it out that way
>>
>> i have read some rand & some of Elliot’s blog posts
>>
>> i have used introspection to try to figure out what would help me be
>> less passive
>
> did any of this make progress?

i don’t know. it’s hard to tell. i don’t always remember what i
was like at different times.

and when things do change, i don’t know exactly why. so it’s hard to
know how much any one thing contributed.

> if so, what's some of the progress?

i write emails more right now than i have at various times. i have gone
long periods of time without writing any emails, or writing very few.

but i think i have also gone through periods where i wrote a lot of
emails in the past. and those didn’t last for some reason. i don’t
know if this will last either.

> if not, what were some problems you ran into?

i don’t feel a lot of motivation. i haven’t been able to figure out
why, or how to change that.

i will think that i *should* feel motivation, and want to improve my
life. i think that it is good. i think that rand’s heroes are good. i
think that i should want to be more like them. but i just don’t feel
it.

> what didn't work?

just reading rand hasn’t been enough. i have read Atlas Shrugged,
Fountainhead, Anthem, and We The Living all multiple times.

i also think about them and the characters in them. and try to imagine
myself being a better person. and try to figure out if that is something
i even want.

i don’t write about it though.

>>> are you passive? sometimes? ever? got any problems in that area?
>>
>> yes i am passive. a lot.
>>
>> i have a lot of problems in that area.
>
> any ideas about why?

i don’t know why

i feel like i don’t want to do stuff a lot

i think that means that i have conflicting ideas about doing the stuff.
part of me doesn’t want to do the stuff. but i don’t really know
why. i don’t know what ideas i have that don’t want to do stuff. i
don’t know what my reasons are.

> do you think you have typical conventional problems about passivity,
> or that your problems are different?

i think i have typical conventional problems. lots of people have the
same issues.

one way i am different than most conventional people is that i don’t
want to just “force” myself to do stuff. i don’t want to set up
reward systems for myself, which lots of people do. or set up things
like timers to limit my time on certain websites. or set up schedules
that i “make” myself adhere to, even if i don’t want to.

lots of people use systems like that. they don’t actually resolve
their conflicting ideas. they just try to find ways to make themselves
do the things they explicitly think are good. they think that the part
of them that doesn’t want to do the things is wrong (or “lazy”),
and they just need to thwart that part of themselves to be productive.

and when they manage to successfully thwart the part of themselves that
they think is lazy, they feel like they have been successful. they feel
good about themselves when they do that. they feel like it makes them a
good person.

but if i were to deal with the issue in that way, i wouldn’t feel good
about myself. i wouldn’t think it made me a successful, productive
person. i want to actually fully *want* to do things. but i don’t know
how to resolve the conflict.


Jordan

[anonymous FI]

On Aug 19, 2016, at 16:12 PM, Jordan Talcot <jordan...@gmail.com>

wrote:

> On Aug 19, 2016, at 15:38 PM, anonymous FI
> <anonymousfa...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Aug 19, 2016, at 15:36 PM, anonymous FI
>> <anonymousfa...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Aug 19, 2016, at 14:23 PM, anonymous FI
>>> <anonymousfa...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Aug 19, 2016, at 14:20 PM, anonymous FI
>>>> <anonymousfa...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Aug 19, 2016, at 14:06 PM, anonymous FI
>>>>> <anonymousfa...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> how can passive people get better? given they'll be passive about
>>>>>> any proposed improvement process.
>>>>>
>>>>> i don’t know
>>>>
>>>> do you want to know?
>>>
>>> yes
>>>
>>>> have you tried to know? done anything to figure it out?
>>>
>>> i have thought about it and tried to figure it out that way
>>>
>>> i have read some rand & some of Elliot’s blog posts
>>>
>>> i have used introspection to try to figure out what would help me be
>>> less passive
>>
>> did any of this make progress?
>
> i don’t know. it’s hard to tell. i don’t always remember what i
> was like at different times.

if you made progress, would you have written it down?

> and when things do change, i don’t know exactly why. so it’s hard
> to know how much any one thing contributed.
>
>> if so, what's some of the progress?
>
> i write emails more right now than i have at various times. i have
> gone long periods of time without writing any emails, or writing very
> few.
>
> but i think i have also gone through periods where i wrote a lot of
> emails in the past. and those didn’t last for some reason. i don’t
> know if this will last either.

it's up to you whether you keep emailing or not. it's your choice. it's
not something that will happen to you.

>> if not, what were some problems you ran into?
>
> i don’t feel a lot of motivation. i haven’t been able to figure
> out why, or how to change that.

what do you think you currently find motivational? what do you think are
good sources of motivation in life?

do you focus on FEELING motivation or having motivating (important)
reasons to do something?

does your life revolve around feelings? do you only do actions when you
feel motivated?

are you trying to change this by controlling your feelings, learning new
reasons to do things, finding better things to do, trying to find+fix
some hangups, or what?

> i will think that i *should* feel motivation, and want to improve my
> life. i think that it is good. i think that rand’s heroes are good.
> i think that i should want to be more like them. but i just don’t
> feel it.

do you think you're missing the motor they metaphorically talk about
people having in Atlas Shrugged?

>> what didn't work?
>
> just reading rand hasn’t been enough. i have read Atlas Shrugged,
> Fountainhead, Anthem, and We The Living all multiple times.

what about non-fiction? Virtue of Selfishness? Understanding
Objectivism?

what about DISCUSSING Rand? what have you done to error-correct your
understanding of Objectivism?

> i also think about them and the characters in them. and try to imagine
> myself being a better person. and try to figure out if that is
> something i even want.
>
> i don’t write about it though.

why?

>>>> are you passive? sometimes? ever? got any problems in that area?
>>>
>>> yes i am passive. a lot.
>>>
>>> i have a lot of problems in that area.
>>
>> any ideas about why?
>
> i don’t know why
>
> i feel like i don’t want to do stuff a lot

do you often feel better about wanting to do stuff after you get
started?

> i think that means that i have conflicting ideas about doing the
> stuff. part of me doesn’t want to do the stuff. but i don’t really
> know why. i don’t know what ideas i have that don’t want to do
> stuff. i don’t know what my reasons are.

do you have any negative stray thoughts? those can provide hints.

>> do you think you have typical conventional problems about passivity,
>> or that your problems are different?
>
> i think i have typical conventional problems. lots of people have the
> same issues.
>
> one way i am different than most conventional people is that i don’t
> want to just “force” myself to do stuff. i don’t want to set up
> reward systems for myself, which lots of people do. or set up things
> like timers to limit my time on certain websites. or set up schedules
> that i “make” myself adhere to, even if i don’t want to.
>
> lots of people use systems like that. they don’t actually resolve
> their conflicting ideas. they just try to find ways to make themselves
> do the things they explicitly think are good. they think that the part
> of them that doesn’t want to do the things is wrong (or “lazy”),
> and they just need to thwart that part of themselves to be productive.
>
> and when they manage to successfully thwart the part of themselves
> that they think is lazy, they feel like they have been successful.
> they feel good about themselves when they do that. they feel like it
> makes them a good person.
>
> but if i were to deal with the issue in that way, i wouldn’t feel
> good about myself. i wouldn’t think it made me a successful,
> productive person. i want to actually fully *want* to do things. but i
> don’t know how to resolve the conflict.

what are some reasons you think productivity is good? what do you think
counts as productivity, action, doing shit?

what are some reasons people think it's bad and why do you think they're
mistaken?

write it out.

[Jordan Talcot]

On Aug 19, 2016, at 16:28 PM, anonymous FI

probably not

i don’t usually realize until a while after the fact that something
has changed

then i find it hard to remember exactly when it changed and why and how

or i am not sure if it even changed like i think it did. maybe i am
misremembering

and i don’t usually write all this stuff down

one thing i do sometimes have is old writing about a problem. and then i
can go back and read those, and see if i still have the same problem

>> and when things do change, i don’t know exactly why. so it’s hard
>> to know how much any one thing contributed.
>>
>>> if so, what's some of the progress?
>>
>> i write emails more right now than i have at various times. i have
>> gone long periods of time without writing any emails, or writing very
>> few.
>>
>> but i think i have also gone through periods where i wrote a lot of
>> emails in the past. and those didn’t last for some reason. i
>> don’t know if this will last either.
>
> it's up to you whether you keep emailing or not. it's your choice.
> it's not something that will happen to you.

i know it’s my choice. but i find it hard to predict what i will do in
the future.

i don’t know why my behaviour has changed. i don’t have a good idea
of what is going on. so it is hard to know how i will act in different
circumstances.

in the past, i have felt like i made a long term change that was going
to “stick”. but then it didn’t. i changed back. and i didn’t
really understand why. so i think that might happen again.

>>> if not, what were some problems you ran into?
>>
>> i don’t feel a lot of motivation. i haven’t been able to figure
>> out why, or how to change that.
>
> what do you think you currently find motivational?

i don’t know. i don’t know if i find anything really motivational.

i have things like wanting to be ok enough by conventional standards to
not be homeless. actually more than that. i want to be able to live an
ok life by conventional standards. so things like paying bills on time
so my credit is ok. i have enough motivation to do that stuff.

which is kind of interesting now that i think of it. not paying my bills
would seem like majorly fucking up on life. but for some reason i
don’t feel like that about learning FI. it doesn’t feel as much like
fucking up. or it’s like not as bad or something. maybe because i
don’t feel like i am worse than most people in those ways. so i figure
i am ok if you look at me compared to most people. it doesn’t feel
like an urgent issue to me.

> what do you think are good sources of motivation in life?

i don’t know

> do you focus on FEELING motivation or having motivating (important)
> reasons to do something?
>
> does your life revolve around feelings? do you only do actions when
> you feel motivated?

i focus on feelings too much. i don’t like to do things when i don’t
“feel” like it.

i used to really focus on feelings heavily. i sort of “let” them
control my life a lot. i thought feelings were a natural part of being
human, you couldn’t control them, and you just had to learn how to
“deal with” your emotions.

but then for a while i was sort of better. i don’t know how much
better i actually was though. i still focussed on feelings a lot, it’s
just that i got better at changing them. i realized feelings were caused
by ideas, so i would change my ideas about things, which would change my
feelings too.

but now, i don’t know how to change my ideas about the things i am
having trouble with. so i can’t change my feelings. or, i don’t know
how to change them. and so i just feel kind of stuck.

> are you trying to change this by controlling your feelings, learning
> new reasons to do things, finding better things to do, trying to
> find+fix some hangups, or what?

i don’t know how much i am really doing. i find it hard to even think
of any examples of what i do. i know there are some things, but i just
can’t think of them. i don’t know why. i think i cause these mental
blocks when i don’t want to think about things, or when i don’t want
to say them.

>> i will think that i *should* feel motivation, and want to improve my
>> life. i think that it is good. i think that rand’s heroes are good.
>> i think that i should want to be more like them. but i just don’t
>> feel it.
>
> do you think you're missing the motor they metaphorically talk about
> people having in Atlas Shrugged?

maybe. i feel like i don’t have that. i don’t know if i am
“missing” it. i don’t really understand what it is.

sometimes i feel like i am missing it, and if i could just find a way to
be motivated, that would solve my problems.

but then other times i think i am just using that as an excuse. i am
looking for a “magic bullet” to fix myself, instead of actually
working on my problems.

>>> what didn't work?
>>
>> just reading rand hasn’t been enough. i have read Atlas Shrugged,
>> Fountainhead, Anthem, and We The Living all multiple times.
>
> what about non-fiction? Virtue of Selfishness? Understanding
> Objectivism?

i have read some of the non-fiction, but i don’t remember it as well.
and i only read it once. i did read Virtue of Selfishness. i’ve only
read part of Understanding Objectivism.

> what about DISCUSSING Rand? what have you done to error-correct your
> understanding of Objectivism?

i haven’t discussed it very much. i haven’ emailed about it. i
don’t talk about it with people who have a better understanding of
Objectivism than i do.

i don’t think i’ve really done anything to error-correct. sometimes
i will look things up online in the lexicon to see if my ideas about the
words are right. i will try to think up my own answers to questions
first, then read other people’s answers to see if they match. (like,
sometimes i do this with Elliot’s emails.)

>> i also think about them and the characters in them. and try to
>> imagine myself being a better person. and try to figure out if that
>> is something i even want.
>>
>> i don’t write about it though.
>
> why?

i don’t know.

i don’t write about most things in general. this seems the same as the
other stuff i don’t write about.

>>>>> are you passive? sometimes? ever? got any problems in that area?
>>>>
>>>> yes i am passive. a lot.
>>>>
>>>> i have a lot of problems in that area.
>>>
>>> any ideas about why?
>>
>> i don’t know why
>>
>> i feel like i don’t want to do stuff a lot
>
> do you often feel better about wanting to do stuff after you get
> started?

i don’t know. i haven’t thought about that much or paid a lot of
attention.

i think usually i just wait until i do feel better to get started. so i
don’t know what would happen if i did it the other way around, and
tried to get started first before i felt better.

>> i think that means that i have conflicting ideas about doing the
>> stuff. part of me doesn’t want to do the stuff. but i don’t
>> really know why. i don’t know what ideas i have that don’t want
>> to do stuff. i don’t know what my reasons are.
>
> do you have any negative stray thoughts? those can provide hints.

it’s stupid

it won’t work anyway

why do people even expect this of me? it’s not fair, and it’s too
much to expect

everyone here (FI) is just fooling themselves. Elliot is wrong about how
good he is and how bad other people are. he can’t possibly be that
much better than professionals and people with degrees and stuff. how
can those entire cultures (e.g., academia, science) exist, and be so
wrong? there must be something to them. something that Elliot is
missing.

maybe i would be happier if i just learnt how to properly be
conventional

maybe i will never be happy, and should just give up now. why keep
trying for something that will never work?

you should actually get stuff done with your life. you should accomplish
things that you think are worthwhile. otherwise you are wasting your
life. why even be alive if you aren’t going to do anything good with
your life? what is the point of just going along, never doing anything
you think is good or worthwhile, and then dying?

> what do you think counts as productivity, action, doing shit?

doing stuff that you think is good. that you think is accomplishing
something.

learning FI.

writing good emails. i am not sure if my emails count though. sometimes
i write emails that i don’t think really count. they aren’t good
enough.

i also feel productive if i do stuff around my house that needs to be
done, like organize shit, or put up a shelf, or clean, or fix a broken
appliance. stuff that makes my life better. i don’t feel a lot of
motivation to do that stuff either.

> what are some reasons people think it's bad and why do you think
> they're mistaken?

they think it is too much work

they think it is boring

they think that productive stuff & fun are opposites. fun is being
non-productive. productive stuff is work.

they think being frivolous or unnecessary or impractical is part of what
*makes* things fun


i don’t really know why they are wrong. i think that people should
value things they think are *good*. they should *want* to do good
things. they should find that fun. but i can’t explain why.

right now, i just don’t find very much stuff fun at all. i used to
find some conventional things fun. but now i don’t find those as fun
anymore. but i don’t find good/ productive things fun either. i feel
unhappy a lot.

> write it out.

i should probably write stuff out more than i did so far

i don’t know how to deal with replying to these emails tho. you ask
some questions that are easy to quickly answer, and others that take a
lot of thought. i could wait until i have answered them all and then
send the reply. or i could answer the easy ones & send right away, then
go back and do the longer ones later. when i do stuff like that, i often
don’t go back later though. that is another problem i have. i
wouldn’t act like that if it was something i really want to do —
something i was excited about doing.


Jordan

[Justin Mallone]

On Aug 19, 2016, at 9:40 PM, 'Jordan Talcot' jordan...@gmail.com [fallible-ideas] <fallibl...@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

> On Aug 19, 2016, at 16:28 PM, anonymous FI
> <anonymousfa...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Aug 19, 2016, at 16:12 PM, Jordan Talcot <jordan...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Aug 19, 2016, at 15:38 PM, anonymous FI
>>> <anonymousfa...@gmail.com> wrote:

>>>> if not, what were some problems you ran into?
>>>
>>> i don’t feel a lot of motivation. i haven’t been able to figure
>>> out why, or how to change that.
>>
>> what do you think you currently find motivational?
>
> i don’t know. i don’t know if i find anything really motivational.

:((

> i have things like wanting to be ok enough by conventional standards to
> not be homeless. actually more than that. i want to be able to live an
> ok life by conventional standards. so things like paying bills on time
> so my credit is ok. i have enough motivation to do that stuff.
>
> which is kind of interesting now that i think of it. not paying my bills
> would seem like majorly fucking up on life. but for some reason i
> don’t feel like that about learning FI. it doesn’t feel as much like
> fucking up. or it’s like not as bad or something. maybe because i
> don’t feel like i am worse than most people in those ways. so i figure
> i am ok if you look at me compared to most people. it doesn’t feel
> like an urgent issue to me.

This seems like pretty straight-forward second-handedness to me.

People look down at people who don’t pay bills as being low class. People don’t look down on not posting on FI.

The bills thing is interesting too. I recommend paying your bills but, lots of people fall behind regularly. It’s a problem people have. And then some of those people actually get on top of it, and have like some negative credit issues for a while until they establish they are considered trustworthy again.

It’s not good but it’s not exactly the end of the world.

Living an unexamined life and then dying though …. well, that’s the end of your world at least, for sure! :-/

>>> i will think that i *should* feel motivation, and want to improve my
>>> life. i think that it is good. i think that rand’s heroes are good.
>>> i think that i should want to be more like them. but i just don’t
>>> feel it.
>>
>> do you think you're missing the motor they metaphorically talk about
>> people having in Atlas Shrugged?
>
> maybe. i feel like i don’t have that. i don’t know if i am
> “missing” it. i don’t really understand what it is.
>
> sometimes i feel like i am missing it, and if i could just find a way to
> be motivated, that would solve my problems.
>
> but then other times i think i am just using that as an excuse. i am
> looking for a “magic bullet” to fix myself, instead of actually
> working on my problems.

I think if you don’t have a “motor”, it’d be a big problem, and a lot of work to figure out how to “build" one. Not a magic bullet situation at all.

Solvable, though :-)

>>> i think that means that i have conflicting ideas about doing the
>>> stuff. part of me doesn’t want to do the stuff. but i don’t
>>> really know why. i don’t know what ideas i have that don’t want
>>> to do stuff. i don’t know what my reasons are.
>>
>> do you have any negative stray thoughts? those can provide hints.
>
> it’s stupid
>
> it won’t work anyway
>
> why do people even expect this of me? it’s not fair, and it’s too
> much to expect
>
> everyone here (FI) is just fooling themselves. Elliot is wrong about how
> good he is and how bad other people are. he can’t possibly be that
> much better than professionals and people with degrees and stuff. how
> can those entire cultures (e.g., academia, science) exist, and be so
> wrong? there must be something to them. something that Elliot is
> missing.
>
> maybe i would be happier if i just learnt how to properly be
> conventional
>
> maybe i will never be happy, and should just give up now. why keep
> trying for something that will never work?

If you’re having these negative stray thoughts, it means you haven’t fully refuted this stuff.

My recc would be something like — start threads on each of these.

Some of them could be grouped up into one. Some variations on a theme here.

But you should discuss these negative stray thoughts until you’re really convinced.

They set reason and emotion against each other. They think reason is boring and painful but necessary, and fun is at the bottom of a liquor bottle or in a bag of pills or cheering mindlessly for their local sports team or playing a video game badly or whatever.

SAD!

> i think that people should
> value things they think are *good*. they should *want* to do good
> things. they should find that fun. but i can’t explain why.

Good things involve using your mind, which is the thing that makes individuals different than the animals.

I think lots of people recognize, at some level, that it’s better to do stuff that uses your mind over stuff that doesn’t. Which is why they invent justifications as to why they can’t (having learning disabilities, lacking certain innate endowments required, etc).

> right now, i just don’t find very much stuff fun at all. i used to
> find some conventional things fun. but now i don’t find those as fun
> anymore. but i don’t find good/ productive things fun either. i feel
> unhappy a lot.
>
>> write it out.
>
> i should probably write stuff out more than i did so far
>
> i don’t know how to deal with replying to these emails tho. you ask
> some questions that are easy to quickly answer, and others that take a
> lot of thought. i could wait until i have answered them all and then
> send the reply. or i could answer the easy ones & send right away, then
> go back and do the longer ones later. when i do stuff like that, i often
> don’t go back later though. that is another problem i have. i
> wouldn’t act like that if it was something i really want to do —
> something i was excited about doing.

i leave pending emails open on my desktop until I decide to either finish them or get rid of them.

-JM

[Elliot Temple]

do you use uncertainty about progress as an excuse not to do good stuff?

>>> and when things do change, i don’t know exactly why. so it’s hard to know how much any one thing contributed.
>>>
>>>> if so, what's some of the progress?
>>>
>>> i write emails more right now than i have at various times. i have gone long periods of time without writing any emails, or writing very few.
>>>
>>> but i think i have also gone through periods where i wrote a lot of emails in the past. and those didn’t last for some reason. i don’t know if this will last either.
>>
>> it's up to you whether you keep emailing or not. it's your choice. it's not something that will happen to you.
>
> i know it’s my choice. but i find it hard to predict what i will do in the future.
>
> i don’t know why my behaviour has changed. i don’t have a good idea of what is going on. so it is hard to know how i will act in different circumstances.
>
> in the past, i have felt like i made a long term change that was going to “stick”. but then it didn’t. i changed back. and i didn’t really understand why. so i think that might happen again.

so what are you doing to get control over your life? do you want control over your life?

>>>> if not, what were some problems you ran into?
>>>
>>> i don’t feel a lot of motivation. i haven’t been able to figure out why, or how to change that.
>>
>> what do you think you currently find motivational?
>
> i don’t know. i don’t know if i find anything really motivational.
>
> i have things like wanting to be ok enough by conventional standards to not be homeless. actually more than that. i want to be able to live an ok life by conventional standards. so things like paying bills on time so my credit is ok. i have enough motivation to do that stuff.
>
> which is kind of interesting now that i think of it. not paying my bills would seem like majorly fucking up on life. but for some reason i don’t feel like that about learning FI. it doesn’t feel as much like fucking up. or it’s like not as bad or something. maybe because i don’t feel like i am worse than most people in those ways. so i figure i am ok if you look at me compared to most people. it doesn’t feel like an urgent issue to me.

do you want to have motivations? if so, which things do you want to motivate you? make a list.

do you care much about motivation? you don't actually have to FEEL motivation to do things. you could be less emotion-focused. maybe that's a better approach. what do you think?

>> what do you think are good sources of motivation in life?
>
> i don’t know

any ideas? do you want to know? i bet you could say some if you cared to.

>> do you focus on FEELING motivation or having motivating (important) reasons to do something?
>>
>> does your life revolve around feelings? do you only do actions when you feel motivated?
>
> i focus on feelings too much. i don’t like to do things when i don’t “feel” like it.
>
> i used to really focus on feelings heavily. i sort of “let” them control my life a lot. i thought feelings were a natural part of being human, you couldn’t control them, and you just had to learn how to “deal with” your emotions.
>
> but then for a while i was sort of better. i don’t know how much better i actually was though. i still focussed on feelings a lot, it’s just that i got better at changing them. i realized feelings were caused by ideas, so i would change my ideas about things, which would change my feelings too.
>
> but now, i don’t know how to change my ideas about the things i am having trouble with. so i can’t change my feelings. or, i don’t know how to change them. and so i just feel kind of stuck.

what's the big deal with feelings anyway?

just cuz ur stupid culture told u to be this way, without rational argument?

>> are you trying to change this by controlling your feelings, learning new reasons to do things, finding better things to do, trying to find+fix some hangups, or what?
>
> i don’t know how much i am really doing. i find it hard to even think of any examples of what i do. i know there are some things, but i just can’t think of them. i don’t know why. i think i cause these mental blocks when i don’t want to think about things, or when i don’t want to say them.

now what?

>>> i will think that i *should* feel motivation, and want to improve my life. i think that it is good. i think that rand’s heroes are good. i think that i should want to be more like them. but i just don’t feel it.
>>
>> do you think you're missing the motor they metaphorically talk about people having in Atlas Shrugged?
>
> maybe. i feel like i don’t have that. i don’t know if i am “missing” it. i don’t really understand what it is.
>
> sometimes i feel like i am missing it, and if i could just find a way to be motivated, that would solve my problems.
>
> but then other times i think i am just using that as an excuse. i am looking for a “magic bullet” to fix myself, instead of actually working on my problems.

you need to just do stuff. i bet you'd feel way better, anyway, after a while (say, 6 months) of just doing productive stuff most of the time.

>>>> what didn't work?
>>>
>>> just reading rand hasn’t been enough. i have read Atlas Shrugged, Fountainhead, Anthem, and We The Living all multiple times.
>>
>> what about non-fiction? Virtue of Selfishness? Understanding Objectivism?
>
> i have read some of the non-fiction, but i don’t remember it as well. and i only read it once. i did read Virtue of Selfishness. i’ve only read part of Understanding Objectivism.
>
>> what about DISCUSSING Rand? what have you done to error-correct your understanding of Objectivism?
>
> i haven’t discussed it very much. i haven’ emailed about it. i don’t talk about it with people who have a better understanding of Objectivism than i do.

why?

> i don’t think i’ve really done anything to error-correct. sometimes i will look things up online in the lexicon to see if my ideas about the words are right. i will try to think up my own answers to questions first, then read other people’s answers to see if they match. (like, sometimes i do this with Elliot’s emails.)

do you want to fail?

>>> i also think about them and the characters in them. and try to imagine myself being a better person. and try to figure out if that is something i even want.
>>>
>>> i don’t write about it though.
>>
>> why?
>
> i don’t know.
>
> i don’t write about most things in general. this seems the same as the other stuff i don’t write about.

do step 1. either it works or you run into an issue. if it works, do step 2. either it works or you run into an issue. repeat until you make all the progress or find an issue. then you'll have an issue to discuss. discuss it.

>>>>>> are you passive? sometimes? ever? got any problems in that area?
>>>>>
>>>>> yes i am passive. a lot.
>>>>>
>>>>> i have a lot of problems in that area.
>>>>
>>>> any ideas about why?
>>>
>>> i don’t know why
>>>
>>> i feel like i don’t want to do stuff a lot
>>
>> do you often feel better about wanting to do stuff after you get started?
>
> i don’t know. i haven’t thought about that much or paid a lot of attention.
>
> i think usually i just wait until i do feel better to get started. so i don’t know what would happen if i did it the other way around, and tried to get started first before i felt better.

try it the other way around.

>>> i think that means that i have conflicting ideas about doing the stuff. part of me doesn’t want to do the stuff. but i don’t really know why. i don’t know what ideas i have that don’t want to do stuff. i don’t know what my reasons are.
>>
>> do you have any negative stray thoughts? those can provide hints.
>
> it’s stupid
>
> it won’t work anyway
>
> why do people even expect this of me? it’s not fair, and it’s too much to expect
>
> everyone here (FI) is just fooling themselves. Elliot is wrong about how good he is and how bad other people are. he can’t possibly be that much better than professionals and people with degrees and stuff. how can those entire cultures (e.g., academia, science) exist, and be so wrong? there must be something to them. something that Elliot is missing.
>
> maybe i would be happier if i just learnt how to properly be conventional
>
> maybe i will never be happy, and should just give up now. why keep trying for something that will never work?

now write everything you agree with and disagree with about these. go into detail. argue both sides. ask questions too if you don't know everything.

>>>> do you think you have typical conventional problems about passivity, or that your problems are different?
>>>
>>> i think i have typical conventional problems. lots of people have the same issues.
>>>
>>> one way i am different than most conventional people is that i don’t want to just “force” myself to do stuff. i don’t want to set up reward systems for myself, which lots of people do. or set up things like timers to limit my time on certain websites. or set up schedules that i “make” myself adhere to, even if i don’t want to.
>>>
>>> lots of people use systems like that. they don’t actually resolve their conflicting ideas. they just try to find ways to make themselves do the things they explicitly think are good. they think that the part of them that doesn’t want to do the things is wrong (or “lazy”), and they just need to thwart that part of themselves to be productive.
>>>
>>> and when they manage to successfully thwart the part of themselves that they think is lazy, they feel like they have been successful. they feel good about themselves when they do that. they feel like it makes them a good person.
>>>
>>> but if i were to deal with the issue in that way, i wouldn’t feel good about myself. i wouldn’t think it made me a successful, productive person. i want to actually fully *want* to do things. but i don’t know how to resolve the conflict.
>>
>> what are some reasons you think productivity is good?
>
> you should actually get stuff done with your life. you should accomplish things that you think are worthwhile. otherwise you are wasting your life. why even be alive if you aren’t going to do anything good with your life? what is the point of just going along, never doing anything you think is good or worthwhile, and then dying?

are you just saying that? or you really think it and have it integrated into your life? something else?

>> what do you think counts as productivity, action, doing shit?
>
> doing stuff that you think is good. that you think is accomplishing something.
>
> learning FI.
>
> writing good emails. i am not sure if my emails count though. sometimes i write emails that i don’t think really count. they aren’t good enough.

take some of your emails you think weren't productive and reply to them and point out the problems and explain your overall evaluation. someone may contradict you.

> i also feel productive if i do stuff around my house that needs to be done, like organize shit, or put up a shelf, or clean, or fix a broken appliance. stuff that makes my life better. i don’t feel a lot of motivation to do that stuff either.
>
>> what are some reasons people think it's bad and why do you think they're mistaken?
>
> they think it is too much work
>
> they think it is boring
>
> they think that productive stuff & fun are opposites. fun is being non-productive. productive stuff is work.
>
> they think being frivolous or unnecessary or impractical is part of what *makes* things fun
>
>
> i don’t really know why they are wrong. i think that people should value things they think are *good*. they should *want* to do good things. they should find that fun. but i can’t explain why.
>
> right now, i just don’t find very much stuff fun at all. i used to find some conventional things fun. but now i don’t find those as fun anymore. but i don’t find good/ productive things fun either. i feel unhappy a lot.
>
>> write it out.
>
> i should probably write stuff out more than i did so far

yeah. do that now.

> i don’t know how to deal with replying to these emails tho. you ask some questions that are easy to quickly answer, and others that take a lot of thought. i could wait until i have answered them all and then send the reply. or i could answer the easy ones & send right away, then go back and do the longer ones later. when i do stuff like that, i often don’t go back later though. that is another problem i have. i wouldn’t act like that if it was something i really want to do — something i was excited about doing.

you aren't actually helpless. no excuses.

Elliot Temple
www.fallibleideas.com
www.curi.us

[Jordan Talcot]

>>>>> if so, what's some of the progress?
>>>>
>>>> i write emails more right now than i have at various times. i have
>>>> gone long periods of time without writing any emails, or writing
>>>> very few.
>>>>
>>>> but i think i have also gone through periods where i wrote a lot of
>>>> emails in the past. and those didn’t last for some reason. i
>>>> don’t know if this will last either.
>>>
>>> it's up to you whether you keep emailing or not. it's your choice.
>>> it's not something that will happen to you.
>>
>> i know it’s my choice. but i find it hard to predict what i will do
>> in the future.
>>
>> i don’t know why my behaviour has changed. i don’t have a good
>> idea of what is going on. so it is hard to know how i will act in
>> different circumstances.
>>
>> in the past, i have felt like i made a long term change that was
>> going to “stick”. but then it didn’t. i changed back. and i
>> didn’t really understand why. so i think that might happen again.
>
> so what are you doing to get control over your life? do you want
> control over your life?

i do want control over my life

i wasn’t sure before if i wanted it. i didn’t want to be responsible
for things. and i felt like it didn’t matter what i did, i wouldn’t
be able to improve things enough to be happy anyway

i don’t know what exactly changed. but i currently feel differently. i
used to feel more ambivalent about being better and getting control over
my life and whether or not i even WANTED to try

i DO want to try now. and i DO want to have control over my life. but i
am not sure what to do about it.

>>>>> if not, what were some problems you ran into?
>>>>
>>>> i don’t feel a lot of motivation. i haven’t been able to figure
>>>> out why, or how to change that.

>>> do you focus on FEELING motivation or having motivating (important)
>>> reasons to do something?
>>>
>>> does your life revolve around feelings? do you only do actions when
>>> you feel motivated?
>>
>> i focus on feelings too much. i don’t like to do things when i
>> don’t “feel” like it.
>>
>> i used to really focus on feelings heavily. i sort of “let” them
>> control my life a lot. i thought feelings were a natural part of
>> being human, you couldn’t control them, and you just had to learn
>> how to “deal with” your emotions.
>>
>> but then for a while i was sort of better. i don’t know how much
>> better i actually was though. i still focussed on feelings a lot,
>> it’s just that i got better at changing them. i realized feelings
>> were caused by ideas, so i would change my ideas about things, which
>> would change my feelings too.
>>
>> but now, i don’t know how to change my ideas about the things i am
>> having trouble with. so i can’t change my feelings. or, i don’t
>> know how to change them. and so i just feel kind of stuck.
>
> what's the big deal with feelings anyway?
>
> just cuz ur stupid culture told u to be this way, without rational
> argument?

i don’t know. i still focus on feelings a lot. i have trouble doing
things when i am in a bad mood. i find it distracting. i feel like i
have to “make” myself do stuff if i am in a bad mood. and i don’t
like forcing myself to do stuff. so i just do things to try to feel
happier and distract me from my mood. things that will make me forget
about the problems in my life. like i will watch youtube videos.

i am not sure how to focus less on my feelings or how to deal better
with having a bad mood.

one problem is that sometimes when i am in a bad mood, i don’t
actually WANT to get out of it. i want to forget about it. but i don’t
want to get out of it and be productive. i sabotage myself.

Jordan

[Elliot Temple]

sounds like some FI and other philosophy stuff helped you in a big way but you can't pinpoint exactly which philosophy helped. so do more! this is normal. you get better at thinking and things start falling into place more. but you can't -- and don't need to -- pinpoint exactly which improvements made which differences in your life. but if you keep improving you'll keep getting more results!

have you tried reading and discussing some Rand and Szasz with "I want to be responsible for my life" in mind while doing it? Then you'll pick up on more relevant ideas, tips, examples, etc

>>>>>> if not, what were some problems you ran into?
>>>>>
>>>>> i don’t feel a lot of motivation. i haven’t been able to figure out why, or how to change that.
>
>>>> do you focus on FEELING motivation or having motivating (important) reasons to do something?
>>>>
>>>> does your life revolve around feelings? do you only do actions when you feel motivated?
>>>
>>> i focus on feelings too much. i don’t like to do things when i don’t “feel” like it.
>>>
>>> i used to really focus on feelings heavily. i sort of “let” them control my life a lot. i thought feelings were a natural part of being human, you couldn’t control them, and you just had to learn how to “deal with” your emotions.
>>>
>>> but then for a while i was sort of better. i don’t know how much better i actually was though. i still focussed on feelings a lot, it’s just that i got better at changing them. i realized feelings were caused by ideas, so i would change my ideas about things, which would change my feelings too.
>>>
>>> but now, i don’t know how to change my ideas about the things i am having trouble with. so i can’t change my feelings. or, i don’t know how to change them. and so i just feel kind of stuck.
>>
>> what's the big deal with feelings anyway?
>>
>> just cuz ur stupid culture told u to be this way, without rational argument?
>
> i don’t know. i still focus on feelings a lot. i have trouble doing things when i am in a bad mood. i find it distracting. i feel like i have to “make” myself do stuff if i am in a bad mood. and i don’t like forcing myself to do stuff. so i just do things to try to feel happier and distract me from my mood. things that will make me forget about the problems in my life. like i will watch youtube videos.

try a middle ground: doing some productive, good things that help you feel happier but aren't your first choice for what you'd do at that time if you were already happy.

isn't there anything productive that you emotionally like and can have a good time with when you're sad? for example, lots of people like video games and can still enjoy them and use them to get in a better mood when they are sad. and this includes many of the people who learn stuff while playing, who play productively.

> i am not sure how to focus less on my feelings or how to deal better with having a bad mood.
>
> one problem is that sometimes when i am in a bad mood, i don’t actually WANT to get out of it. i want to forget about it. but i don’t want to get out of it and be productive. i sabotage myself.

the better you get at thinking/philosophy/being-a-good-person-like-Galt/Roark/Dagny, then the more unnatural doing that shit (like the self-sabotage) will seem to you, and the less you'll do it.


Elliot Temple
www.curi.us

[Jordan Talcot]

my response in my head when i read this was:

NO. SHUT UP. I DON’T WANT TO.

if i know that i am trying to play video games as a “productive”
activity, then i will resist doing it at all when i am in a bad mood. i
will resist doing it BECAUSE it is productive, and i don’t WANT to do
something productive

>> i am not sure how to focus less on my feelings or how to deal better
>> with having a bad mood.
>>
>> one problem is that sometimes when i am in a bad mood, i don’t
>> actually WANT to get out of it. i want to forget about it. but i
>> don’t want to get out of it and be productive. i sabotage myself.
>
> the better you get at
> thinking/philosophy/being-a-good-person-like-Galt/Roark/Dagny, then
> the more unnatural doing that shit (like the self-sabotage) will seem
> to you, and the less you'll do it.

response in my head when i read this was something like:

no. stop telling me what to do.


Jordan

[Elliot Temple]

but it's a good idea that'd be helpful. and you asked for help, you said you lacked knowledge of ways to proceed.

>>>>>>>> if not, what were some problems you ran into?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> i don’t feel a lot of motivation. i haven’t been able to figure out why, or how to change that.
>>>
>>>>>> do you focus on FEELING motivation or having motivating (important) reasons to do something?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> does your life revolve around feelings? do you only do actions when you feel motivated?
>>>>>
>>>>> i focus on feelings too much. i don’t like to do things when i don’t “feel” like it.
>>>>>
>>>>> i used to really focus on feelings heavily. i sort of “let” them control my life a lot. i thought feelings were a natural part of being human, you couldn’t control them, and you just had to learn how to “deal with” your emotions.
>>>>>
>>>>> but then for a while i was sort of better. i don’t know how much better i actually was though. i still focussed on feelings a lot, it’s just that i got better at changing them. i realized feelings were caused by ideas, so i would change my ideas about things, which would change my feelings too.
>>>>>
>>>>> but now, i don’t know how to change my ideas about the things i am having trouble with. so i can’t change my feelings. or, i don’t know how to change them. and so i just feel kind of stuck.
>>>>
>>>> what's the big deal with feelings anyway?
>>>>
>>>> just cuz ur stupid culture told u to be this way, without rational argument?
>>>
>>> i don’t know. i still focus on feelings a lot. i have trouble doing things when i am in a bad mood. i find it distracting. i feel like i have to “make” myself do stuff if i am in a bad mood. and i don’t like forcing myself to do stuff. so i just do things to try to feel happier and distract me from my mood. things that will make me forget about the problems in my life. like i will watch youtube videos.
>>
>> try a middle ground: doing some productive, good things that help you feel happier but aren't your first choice for what you'd do at that time if you were already happy.
>>
>> isn't there anything productive that you emotionally like and can have a good time with when you're sad? for example, lots of people like video games and can still enjoy them and use them to get in a better mood when they are sad. and this includes many of the people who learn stuff while playing, who play productively.
>
> if i know that i am trying to play video games as a “productive” activity, then i will resist doing it at all when i am in a bad mood. i will resist doing it BECAUSE it is productive, and i don’t WANT to do something productive

don't destroy yourself on purpose. :(

>>> i am not sure how to focus less on my feelings or how to deal better with having a bad mood.
>>>
>>> one problem is that sometimes when i am in a bad mood, i don’t actually WANT to get out of it. i want to forget about it. but i don’t want to get out of it and be productive. i sabotage myself.
>>
>> the better you get at thinking/philosophy/being-a-good-person-like-Galt/Roark/Dagny, then the more unnatural doing that shit (like the self-sabotage) will seem to you, and the less you'll do it.
>
> response in my head when i read this was something like:
>
> no. stop telling me what to do.

try to be nothing like Galt/Roark/Dagny! I order you!

there, rebel against that ;p

Elliot Temple
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