grammar q

[Elliot Temple]

Analyze this sentence:

> Water keeps you hydrated.


Elliot Temple
www.fallibleideas.com

[Anne B]

On Jul 19, 2020, at 2:56 AM, Elliot Temple <cu...@curi.us> wrote:

> Analyze this sentence:
>
>> Water keeps you hydrated.

There’s some discussion of this on Discord, starting here:

https://discordapp.com/channels/304082867384745994/304082867384745994/734918219680317511

And some here:

https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/fallible-ideas/08FF25A7-0022-4ABA-86D7-034C11806DBB%40curi.us


I like looking at it as if there’s an implied form of “to be”.

1. Water keeps you hydrated.

“keeps” is the main verb.

“Water” is the subject.

“you hydrated” as a phrase is the object of “keeps”. There’s an implied “being” or something, so it’s “you [being] hydrated”. “you” is the subject of “being” and “hydrated” is the adjective complement of “being”.


2. John keeps hydrated by drinking water.

Again, there could be an implied “being” before “hydrated”. Or you could think of “keeps” as being a linking verb. I lean towards an implied “being”.

“John” is the subject.

“hydrated” is an adjective complement of “being” (or of “keeps”).

“by drinking water” is an adverbial prepositional phrase that modifies “being” (or “keeps”). “drinking” is a gerund (noun) and “water” is its object.


3. Hydrated is a good way to be.

There’s an implied “being” before “hydrated”.

“is” is the main verb, a linking verb.

“[Being] hydrated” is the subject phrase. “Being” is a gerund. “hydrated” is an adjective complement of “being”.

“way” is the noun complement of “is”. “a” and “good” modify “way”.

I’m not sure about “to be”. As a phrase, it seems to be in the role of an adjective that modifies “way”. Could “to” be a preposition and “be” a noun?


4. Hydrated sure beats dehydrated.

There are implied “being”s before both “hydrated” and “dehydrated”.

“beats” is the main verb, an action verb.

“Being hydrated” is the subject. “hydrated” is an adjective complement of “Being”. “Being” is a gerund.

“being dehydrated” is the object of “beats". “dehydrated” is an adjective complement of “being”. “being” is a gerund.

“sure” is an adverb that modifies “beats”. Maybe it’s short for “surely”.

[Justin Mallone]

On Jul 21, 2020, at 10:20 AM, Anne B <anne...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Jul 19, 2020, at 2:56 AM, Elliot Temple <cu...@curi.us> wrote:
>
>> Analyze this sentence:
>>
>>> Water keeps you hydrated.
>
> There’s some discussion of this on Discord, starting here:
>
> https://discordapp.com/channels/304082867384745994/304082867384745994/734918219680317511
>
> And some here:
>
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/fallible-ideas/08FF25A7-0022-4ABA-86D7-034C11806DBB%40curi.us
>
>
> I like looking at it as if there’s an implied form of “to be”.
>
> 1. Water keeps you hydrated.
>
> “keeps” is the main verb.
>
> “Water” is the subject.
>
> “you hydrated” as a phrase is the object of “keeps”. There’s
> an implied “being” or something, so it’s “you [being]
> hydrated”. “you” is the subject of “being” and
> “hydrated” is the adjective complement of “being”.

Are you calling hydrated an adjective complement and not just an
adjective cuz "being" is a verbal and not just a normal noun, so you
want to give it a complement?

> 2. John keeps hydrated by drinking water.
>
> Again, there could be an implied “being” before “hydrated”. Or
> you could think of “keeps” as being a linking verb. I lean towards
> an implied “being”.
>
> “John” is the subject.
>
> “hydrated” is an adjective complement of “being” (or of
> “keeps”).
>
> “by drinking water” is an adverbial prepositional phrase that
> modifies “being” (or “keeps”). “drinking” is a gerund
> (noun) and “water” is its object.

If the sentence were "John stays hydrated by drinking water", would you
analyze it similarly?

> 3. Hydrated is a good way to be.
>
> There’s an implied “being” before “hydrated”.
>
> “is” is the main verb, a linking verb.
>
> “[Being] hydrated” is the subject phrase. “Being” is a gerund.
> “hydrated” is an adjective complement of “being”.
>
> “way” is the noun complement of “is”. “a” and “good”
> modify “way”.
>
> I’m not sure about “to be”. As a phrase, it seems to be in the
> role of an adjective that modifies “way”. Could “to” be a
> preposition and “be” a noun?

Maybe the grammatical structure of the sentence (reorganized for
clarity) is actually:

To be hydrated is a good way.

What do you think?

>
> 4. Hydrated sure beats dehydrated.
>
> There are implied “being”s before both “hydrated” and
> “dehydrated”.
>
> “beats” is the main verb, an action verb.
>
> “Being hydrated” is the subject. “hydrated” is an adjective
> complement of “Being”. “Being” is a gerund.
>
> “being dehydrated” is the object of “beats". “dehydrated” is
> an adjective complement of “being”. “being” is a gerund.
>
> “sure” is an adverb that modifies “beats”. Maybe it’s short
> for “surely”.

makes sense.

-JM

[Elliot Temple]

On Jul 21, 2020, at 4:29 PM, Justin Mallone <jus...@justinmallone.com> wrote:

> On Jul 21, 2020, at 10:20 AM, Anne B <anne...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Jul 19, 2020, at 2:56 AM, Elliot Temple <cu...@curi.us> wrote:
>>
>>> Analyze this sentence:
>>>
>>>> Water keeps you hydrated.
>>
>> There’s some discussion of this on Discord, starting here:
>>
>> https://discordapp.com/channels/304082867384745994/304082867384745994/734918219680317511
>>
>> And some here:
>>
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/fallible-ideas/08FF25A7-0022-4ABA-86D7-034C11806DBB%40curi.us
>>
>>
>> I like looking at it as if there’s an implied form of “to be”.
>>
>> 1. Water keeps you hydrated.
>>
>> “keeps” is the main verb.
>>
>> “Water” is the subject.
>>
>> “you hydrated” as a phrase is the object of “keeps”. There’s an implied “being” or something, so it’s “you [being] hydrated”. “you” is the subject of “being” and “hydrated” is the adjective complement of “being”.
>
> Are you calling hydrated an adjective complement and not just an adjective cuz "being" is a verbal and not just a normal noun, so you want to give it a complement?

I don’t think “hydrated” works as a regular adjective even in the original.

Surely it doesn’t in “you being hydrated”. If you want “hydrated” to be a regular adjective being used in the regular way (like “red car”), you should put it before the noun like usual: “hydrated you”.


Elliot Temple
www.elliottemple.com

[Anne B]

On Jul 21, 2020, at 7:29 PM, Justin Mallone <jus...@justinmallone.com> wrote:

> On Jul 21, 2020, at 10:20 AM, Anne B <anne...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Jul 19, 2020, at 2:56 AM, Elliot Temple <cu...@curi.us> wrote:
>>
>>> Analyze this sentence:
>>>
>>>> Water keeps you hydrated.
>>
>> There’s some discussion of this on Discord, starting here:
>>
>> https://discordapp.com/channels/304082867384745994/304082867384745994/734918219680317511
>>
>> And some here:
>>
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/fallible-ideas/08FF25A7-0022-4ABA-86D7-034C11806DBB%40curi.us
>>
>>
>> I like looking at it as if there’s an implied form of “to be”.
>>
>> 1. Water keeps you hydrated.
>>
>> “keeps” is the main verb.
>>
>> “Water” is the subject.
>>
>> “you hydrated” as a phrase is the object of “keeps”. There’s an implied “being” or something, so it’s “you [being] hydrated”. “you” is the subject of “being” and “hydrated” is the adjective complement of “being”.
>
> Are you calling hydrated an adjective complement and not just an adjective cuz "being" is a verbal and not just a normal noun, so you want to give it a complement?

You could also just call it an adjective. I’m also calling it a complement because it’s the complement in “you being hydrated”.

>> 2. John keeps hydrated by drinking water.
>>
>> Again, there could be an implied “being” before “hydrated”. Or you could think of “keeps” as being a linking verb. I lean towards an implied “being”.
>>
>> “John” is the subject.
>>
>> “hydrated” is an adjective complement of “being” (or of “keeps”).
>>
>> “by drinking water” is an adverbial prepositional phrase that modifies “being” (or “keeps”). “drinking” is a gerund (noun) and “water” is its object.
>
> If the sentence were "John stays hydrated by drinking water", would you analyze it similarly?

Yes, although in that case I might lean more towards looking at “stays” as a linking verb and not having an implied “being”. In fact, now I lean more towards “keeps” as a linking verb in the original sentence.

>> 3. Hydrated is a good way to be.
>>
>> There’s an implied “being” before “hydrated”.
>>
>> “is” is the main verb, a linking verb.
>>
>> “[Being] hydrated” is the subject phrase. “Being” is a gerund. “hydrated” is an adjective complement of “being”.
>>
>> “way” is the noun complement of “is”. “a” and “good” modify “way”.
>>
>> I’m not sure about “to be”. As a phrase, it seems to be in the role of an adjective that modifies “way”. Could “to” be a preposition and “be” a noun?
>
> Maybe the grammatical structure of the sentence (reorganized for clarity) is actually:
>
> To be hydrated is a good way.
>
> What do you think?

I’m not sure if that’s the same idea as the original sentence. If you did rearrange it that way, then “To be hydrated” is the subject. And within that phrase, I still think of “hydrated” as a complement to “to be”.

Another way to reorganize it is this:

A good way to be is hydrated.

Then you don’t need an implied “being”. “Is” is the linking verb, “way” is the subject, “hydrated” is the complement, “to be” is an adjective phrase.

I’m unsure about thiis one.

[Anne B]

I don’t see why “hydrated” can’t be a regular adjective in “water keeps you hydrated”. It’s the same as “water keeps you young” or “water keeps you wet”.

We do sometimes put an adjective before “you”, as in “What would you say to young you about that?” or “What a great picture of wet you!” But often “wet you” or “young you” seems awkward just like “hydrated you”.

The same goes for “I” or “s/he”. “young I”, “young he”, “wet I”, “wet he” all sound strange, but that doesn’t mean that “young” and “wet” aren’t adjectives.

[Elliot Temple]

On Jul 23, 2020, at 2:20 AM, Anne B <anne...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Jul 21, 2020, at 7:40 PM, Elliot Temple <cu...@curi.us> wrote:
>
>> On Jul 21, 2020, at 4:29 PM, Justin Mallone <jus...@justinmallone.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Jul 21, 2020, at 10:20 AM, Anne B <anne...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Jul 19, 2020, at 2:56 AM, Elliot Temple <cu...@curi.us> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Analyze this sentence:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Water keeps you hydrated.
>>>>
>>>> There’s some discussion of this on Discord, starting here:
>>>>
>>>> https://discordapp.com/channels/304082867384745994/304082867384745994/734918219680317511
>>>>
>>>> And some here:
>>>>
>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/fallible-ideas/08FF25A7-0022-4ABA-86D7-034C11806DBB%40curi.us
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I like looking at it as if there’s an implied form of “to be”.
>>>>
>>>> 1. Water keeps you hydrated.
>>>>
>>>> “keeps” is the main verb.
>>>>
>>>> “Water” is the subject.
>>>>
>>>> “you hydrated” as a phrase is the object of “keeps”. There’s an implied “being” or something, so it’s “you [being] hydrated”. “you” is the subject of “being” and “hydrated” is the adjective complement of “being”.
>>>
>>> Are you calling hydrated an adjective complement and not just an adjective cuz "being" is a verbal and not just a normal noun, so you want to give it a complement?
>>
>> I don’t think “hydrated” works as a regular adjective even in the original.
>>
>> Surely it doesn’t in “you being hydrated”. If you want “hydrated” to be a regular adjective being used in the regular way (like “red car”), you should put it before the noun like usual: “hydrated you”.
>
> I don’t see why “hydrated” can’t be a regular adjective in “water keeps you hydrated”. It’s the same as “water keeps you young” or “water keeps you wet”.

Those are not the same as “young people” or “wet clothes”.

If it was “water keeps wet-you” or “water keeps wet-clothes” it’d be incomplete. keeps them what?

in “water keeps you [or clothes] wet”, “wet” isn’t restricting which “you” or “clothes” is being kept. it’s telling us something more like the nature of the keeping.

the adjective going after the noun instead of before is a big clue that something unusual is going on.

>
> We do sometimes put an adjective before “you”, as in “What would you say to young you about that?” or “What a great picture of wet you!” But often “wet you” or “young you” seems awkward just like “hydrated you”.
>
> The same goes for “I” or “s/he”. “young I”, “young he”, “wet I”, “wet he” all sound strange, but that doesn’t mean that “young” and “wet” aren’t adjectives.

“wet John” is used sometimes if there are two Johns present and one is wet and one dry. but “wet I” isn’t needed to differentiate between two people. but it can differentiate between you at different times, in different situations, e.g.: “wet me likes towels and fireplaces, but dry me likes pools and standing on expensive rugs"

Elliot Temple
www.fallibleideas.com

[Justin Mallone]

Have you found anything (in e.g. a dictionary or online) consistent with
treating “keeps” or “stays” as a linking verb?

>>> 3. Hydrated is a good way to be.
>>>
>>> There’s an implied “being” before “hydrated”.
>>>
>>> “is” is the main verb, a linking verb.
>>>
>>> “[Being] hydrated” is the subject phrase. “Being” is a
>>> gerund. “hydrated” is an adjective complement of “being”.
>>>
>>> “way” is the noun complement of “is”. “a” and “good”
>>> modify “way”.
>>>
>>> I’m not sure about “to be”. As a phrase, it seems to be in the
>>> role of an adjective that modifies “way”. Could “to” be a
>>> preposition and “be” a noun?
>>
>> Maybe the grammatical structure of the sentence (reorganized for
>> clarity) is actually:
>>
>> To be hydrated is a good way.
>>
>> What do you think?
>
> I’m not sure if that’s the same idea as the original sentence. If
> you did rearrange it that way, then “To be hydrated” is the
> subject. And within that phrase, I still think of “hydrated” as a
> complement to “to be”.

Ya. It’d be like if you said “To be poor is unpleasant.” Seems
like a reasonable way to think about the grammar where all the parts are
accounted for.

> Another way to reorganize it is this:
>
> A good way to be is hydrated.
>
> Then you don’t need an implied “being”. “Is” is the linking
> verb, “way” is the subject, “hydrated” is the complement,
> “to be” is an adjective phrase.
>
> I’m unsure about thiis one.

Reading “to be” as an adjective phrase seems a bit odd to me. Have
an easy example of something similar in a different sentence?

-JM

[Elliot Temple]

On Jul 23, 2020, at 2:10 AM, Anne B <anne...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Jul 21, 2020, at 7:29 PM, Justin Mallone <jus...@justinmallone.com> wrote:
>
>> On Jul 21, 2020, at 10:20 AM, Anne B <anne...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Jul 19, 2020, at 2:56 AM, Elliot Temple <cu...@curi.us> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Analyze this sentence:
>>>>
>>>>> Water keeps you hydrated.
>>>
>>> There’s some discussion of this on Discord, starting here:
>>>
>>> https://discordapp.com/channels/304082867384745994/304082867384745994/734918219680317511
>>>
>>> And some here:
>>>
>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/fallible-ideas/08FF25A7-0022-4ABA-86D7-034C11806DBB%40curi.us
>>>
>>>
>>> I like looking at it as if there’s an implied form of “to be”.

...

>>> 2. John keeps hydrated by drinking water.
>>>
>>> Again, there could be an implied “being” before “hydrated”. Or you could think of “keeps” as being a linking verb. I lean towards an implied “being”.
>>>
>>> “John” is the subject.
>>>
>>> “hydrated” is an adjective complement of “being” (or of “keeps”).
>>>
>>> “by drinking water” is an adverbial prepositional phrase that modifies “being” (or “keeps”). “drinking” is a gerund (noun) and “water” is its object.
>>
>> If the sentence were "John stays hydrated by drinking water", would you analyze it similarly?
>
> Yes, although in that case I might lean more towards looking at “stays” as a linking verb and not having an implied “being”. In fact, now I lean more towards “keeps” as a linking verb in the original sentence.

"keeps” being a linking verb doesn’t explain these cases from your other email:

“water keeps you young”

“water keeps you wet”

It works for “water keeps you hydrated” because then “hydrated” can be the complement and have “you” as its subject. but regular adjectives (that aren’t verbals) like “young” can’t have a subject.


Elliot Temple
www.curi.us

[Justin Mallone]

Yeah I agree re: clue about something unusual.

BTW I suppose another way to analyze stuff would be that “hydrated”
stands for a long implied prepositional phrase like “in the state of
being hydrated”.

-JM

[Anne B]

https://www.softschools.com/examples/grammar/linking_verbs_examples/63/#:~:text=Linking%20Verbs%20are%20verbs%20that%20express%20a%20state,of%20the%20verb%20%22be%22%20are%20always%20linking%20verbs.

> Linking Verbs are verbs that express a state of being.
> They are called "linking" verbs because they link the subject of the sentence to a word or phrase in the predicate that renames or describes the subject (tells us more about the subject's "state of being”).

In “John keeps hydrated”, “keeps” refers to a state of being.

https://examples.yourdictionary.com/examples-of-linking-verbs.html

> • The crowd stayed calm in spite of the imminent threat.

> • The spectators remained silent after the injury on the field.

However, “John keeps hydrated by drinking water” is about John doing something to maintain his state of being. But “John remained hydrated for a few hours” is only about John’s state of being continuing. So I’m back to thinking that “keeps” is an active verb in "John keeps hydrated by drinking water”. What do you think of this reasoning?

>>>> 3. Hydrated is a good way to be.
>>>>
>>>> There’s an implied “being” before “hydrated”.
>>>>
>>>> “is” is the main verb, a linking verb.
>>>>
>>>> “[Being] hydrated” is the subject phrase. “Being” is a gerund. “hydrated” is an adjective complement of “being”.
>>>>
>>>> “way” is the noun complement of “is”. “a” and “good” modify “way”.
>>>>
>>>> I’m not sure about “to be”. As a phrase, it seems to be in the role of an adjective that modifies “way”. Could “to” be a preposition and “be” a noun?
>>>
>>> Maybe the grammatical structure of the sentence (reorganized for clarity) is actually:
>>>
>>> To be hydrated is a good way.
>>>
>>> What do you think?
>>
>> I’m not sure if that’s the same idea as the original sentence. If you did rearrange it that way, then “To be hydrated” is the subject. And within that phrase, I still think of “hydrated” as a complement to “to be”.
>
> Ya. It’d be like if you said “To be poor is unpleasant.” Seems like a reasonable way to think about the grammar where all the parts are accounted for.
>
>
>> Another way to reorganize it is this:
>>
>> A good way to be is hydrated.
>>
>> Then you don’t need an implied “being”. “Is” is the linking verb, “way” is the subject, “hydrated” is the complement, “to be” is an adjective phrase.
>>
>> I’m unsure about thiis one.
>
> Reading “to be” as an adjective phrase seems a bit odd to me. Have an easy example of something similar in a different sentence?

I said that because “to be” answers the question “what kind of way?”, which is an adjective question. “to be” is a kind of way, which is an adjective function. But I agree that it’s odd.

Some other sentences to think about:

“That’s a good way of being.” I think “of being” is an adjective phrase that modifies “way”. I’m not sure it’s a grammatically correct sentence though.

“They had a long way to go.”

“He found a way to go.”

“He found a way to learn."

[Anne B]

I now think “John keeps hydrated by drinking water” and "John stays hydrated by drinking water” have action verbs. These sentences are about John doing something. They contrast with “the soil stayed hydrated throughout that day”, which is about the soil's state of being continuing, not something the soil did to maintain its state of being.

[Anne B]

Oh. I may have misunderstood what you meant by “regular adjective”. I thought you were saying “hydrated” wasn’t a regular adjective because it comes from a verb. But maybe you meant that it’s not a regular adjective because of its place in this sentence.

But I still don’t understand what you mean by “hydrated” not being a regular adjective. I have some guesses: Using an adjective as a complement isn’t a regular use of it. Verbals can’t have complements. “you hydrated” isn’t a clause with an implied form of “to be” in “water keeps you hydrated”.

[Justin Mallone]

I'm not sure. One thing I think is interesting is that it seems like
you're using the content of prepositional phrases in order to decide
whether something is an action or linking verb.


In general I find the linking verb vs action verb stuff a bit confusing.

One of the classic verbs that people say is a linking verb is "become".
So "He became wise by learning philosophy" has subject "He", linking
verb "became", and the link is to "wise", and then the prepositional
phrase on the end.

Becoming wise by learning philosophy sounds like it involves a course of
action to me though (which is actually specified in the prepositional
phrase in my example, so I'm doing similar to what you're doing in
taking the content of the prepositional phrase into account). I guess
you could say "well the focus in the main part of the sentence is on the
state of the subject-person changing" or something, but often these
lines regarding linking verbs vs action verbs seem a bit arbitrary to
me. I have seen people criticize the idea of linking verbs *in general*
online as an oversimplification.

So I dunno. I'll think about it more.

-JM

[Alisa Zinov'yevna Rosenbaum]

On Sat, Jul 18, 2020 at 11:56:21PM -0700, Elliot Temple wrote:

> Analyze this sentence:
>
>> Water keeps you hydrated.

1. Verb (complex transitive): "keeps"

2. Subject: "Water"

3(a). Object: "you"

3(b). Complement: "hydrated"

4. Modifiers: N/A

Quirk et al., A Comprehensive Grammar of the English Language (1985):

> ... the following seven CLAUSE TYPES emerge:
>
> Type SVOC
>
> S(ubject): Most people
>
> V(erb): consider
>
> O(bject(s)): these books
>
> C(omplement): rather expensive

> COMPLEX TRANSITIVE VERBS occur in types SVOC and SVOA.

> ... in SVOC clauses [the complement] applies an attribute or definition to the object.

[Alisa Zinov'yevna Rosenbaum]

I don't have a copy & pasteable e-book for this book, and Google Books says "Preview unavailable". I re-typed the above text from §2.16 and §2.17. Here are screenshots of the relevant pages (53-55): https://imgur.com/a/lCQiK1F

[Elliot Temple]

That position amounts to “this is a special case with its own special rule”. In other words, “This sentence works because we made up a rule to say this type of sentence works.”

I don’t think taking a position like that is necessary. At least the rule could be related to something (e.g. developed from some prior correct construction, possibly as an abbreviation) instead of presented as an arbitrary rule. This is similar to e.g. indirect objects which are commonly presented as an arbitrary rule but needn’t be.

Elliot Temple
www.fallibleideas.com