Leftism

[Ashley Wilson]

How do I learn about leftism?

— Ashley Wilson

[anonymous FI]

On Aug 7, 2018, at 12:42 PM, 'Ashley Wilson' via Fallible Ideas

<fallibl...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> How do I learn about leftism?

Why do you want to? What part(s) are you interested in?

What do you think might be a good way to learn, that would work for you?
We don't know your preferences, goals, resources, etc. I can't tell you
if you should read a book or should watch YouTube or what. There's info
about this stuff all over FI that you could search for to find some
leads, if you wanted to. If you don't want to, it'd be up to you to say
what you want instead. If you have an initial plan we can point out
problems and suggest additions.

[Ashley Wilson]

On Aug 7, 2018, at 3:00 PM, anonymous FI <anonymousfa...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Aug 7, 2018, at 12:42 PM, 'Ashley Wilson' via Fallible Ideas <fallibl...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>
>> How do I learn about leftism?
>
> Why do you want to?

Cuz I’m interested.

> What part(s) are you interested in?

Just, the shit they (leftists) believe. I’ve seen some stuff and it’s so surprising to me.

I saw Lauren Southern’s documentary about what’s going on in South Africa.

I learned about affirmative action where companies are forced to hire people not based on merit but race/gender instead.

Question: what things in The Red Pill movie connect to leftism?

> What do you think might be a good way to learn, that would work for you?

Talking about it on FI. Cuz I like that better than googling and youtube.

> We don't know your preferences, goals, resources, etc. I can't tell you if you should read a book or should watch YouTube or what. There's info about this stuff all over FI that you could search for to find some leads, if you wanted to. If you don't want to, it'd be up to you to say what you want instead. If you have an initial plan we can point out problems and suggest additions.

I’ll search on FI for “leftism”.

— Ashley Wilson

[anonymous FI]

On Aug 15, 2018, at 12:44 PM, 'Ashley Wilson' via Fallible Ideas

<fallibl...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> On Aug 7, 2018, at 3:00 PM, anonymous FI
> <anonymousfa...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Aug 7, 2018, at 12:42 PM, 'Ashley Wilson' via Fallible Ideas
>> <fallibl...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>>
>>> How do I learn about leftism?
>>
>> Why do you want to?
>
> Cuz I’m interested.

Why?

>> What part(s) are you interested in?
>
> Just, the shit they (leftists) believe. I’ve seen some stuff and
> it’s so surprising to me.
>
> I saw Lauren Southern’s documentary about what’s going on in South
> Africa.
>
> I learned about affirmative action where companies are forced to hire
> people not based on merit but race/gender instead.
>
> Question: what things in The Red Pill movie connect to leftism?

the stupid, modern feminism crap (like the lies about the alleged
college rape epidemic) is a major leftist movement. and it connects with
the affirmative action they do for females.

>> What do you think might be a good way to learn, that would work for
>> you?
>
> Talking about it on FI. Cuz I like that better than googling and
> youtube.
>
>> We don't know your preferences, goals, resources, etc. I can't tell
>> you if you should read a book or should watch YouTube or what.
>> There's info about this stuff all over FI that you could search for
>> to find some leads, if you wanted to. If you don't want to, it'd be
>> up to you to say what you want instead. If you have an initial plan
>> we can point out problems and suggest additions.
>
> I’ll search on FI for “leftism”.

You can try other terms like "left", "democrat", "hillary", "obama",
"environmental", "socialis"

and more specific stuff like "minimum wage".

if you ask about a specific topic then ppl can tell you stuff. or if you
don't know topics you can skim websites with articles to find some:

http://www.frontpagemag.com
https://www.jihadwatch.org
https://gellerreport.com
http://carolineglick.com
https://www.breitbart.com

and there are others depending on the specific topics you're interested
in.

some anti-feminists sites that would offend most people are:

https://heartiste.wordpress.com
http://www.returnofkings.com

[anonymous FI]

On Aug 18, 2018, at 11:10 AM, 'crawle...@gmail.com'
crawle...@gmail.com [fallible-ideas]
<fallibl...@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

> On 15/08/2018 19:44, Ashley Wilson ashleywi...@yahoo.com

> [fallible-ideas] wrote:
>> On Aug 7, 2018, at 3:00 PM, anonymous FI
>> <anonymousfa...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Aug 7, 2018, at 12:42 PM, 'Ashley Wilson' via Fallible Ideas
>>> <fallibl...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> How do I learn about leftism?
>>>
>>> Why do you want to?
>>
>> Cuz I’m interested.
>>
>>> What part(s) are you interested in?
>>
>> Just, the shit they (leftists) believe. I’ve seen some stuff and
>> it’s so surprising to me.
>

> I'm a bit leftist (probably very left by US standards) so I might be
> able to help.
>
> Ir depends on what variety of "leftism" you're interested in. There's
> the centre-left Social Democratic or Liberal sort, which is basically
> capitalism with social support, all the way across to full-blown
> Marxist/Leninist Communism. I'm more inclined to the former.

Why are you leftist? Do you have a criticism of full
capitalism/liberalism as explained by Mises? Are you open to other
ideas?



PS the google group is now the main group.
http://curi.us/2134-the-fallible-ideas-discussion-group-is-moving

[crawle...@gmail.com]

(Sending this to both groups for the benefit of anyone who hasn't moved yet)


On 18/08/2018 19:48, 'anonymous FI' anonymousfa...@gmail.com
[fallible-ideas] wrote:

> Why are you leftist?

Because by and large, left-leaning policies tend to give better results
overal than right-leaning ones.

Although I tend to form an opinion on any policy based on how it works
rather than whether it can be classed as "left" or "right".

> Do you have a criticism of full
> capitalism/liberalism as explained by Mises?

I might have, though that sounds a bit too comprehensive for a quick
reply! Can you pick a bit for me to comment on? I had a look at the
(wrong?) Mises web site, but all I could find was a collection of
commentaries by current writers.

> Are you open to other
> ideas?

Like what? I'll give anything a go!

> PS the google group is now the main group.
> http://curi.us/2134-the-fallible-ideas-discussion-group-is-moving

Found it and subscribed. Out of curiosity, why Google rather than Groups IO?

Richard

[Elliot Temple]

On Aug 21, 2018, at 7:22 AM, 'crawle...@gmail.com' crawle...@gmail.com [fallible-ideas] <fallibl...@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

> (Sending this to both groups for the benefit of anyone who hasn't moved yet)
>
>
> On 18/08/2018 19:48, 'anonymous FI' anonymousfa...@gmail.com
> [fallible-ideas] wrote:
>
>> Why are you leftist?
>
> Because by and large, left-leaning policies tend to give better results
> overal than right-leaning ones.
>
> Although I tend to form an opinion on any policy based on how it works
> rather than whether it can be classed as "left" or "right".
>
>> Do you have a criticism of full
>> capitalism/liberalism as explained by Mises?
>
> I might have, though that sounds a bit too comprehensive for a quick
> reply! Can you pick a bit for me to comment on? I had a look at the
> (wrong?) Mises web site, but all I could find was a collection of
> commentaries by current writers.

How about price controls? Capitalism rejects price controls, but you presumably are in favor of some?

>> Are you open to other ideas?
>
> Like what? I'll give anything a go!

Like http://fallibleideas.com/capitalism

>> PS the google group is now the main group.
>> http://curi.us/2134-the-fallible-ideas-discussion-group-is-moving
>
> Found it and subscribed. Out of curiosity, why Google rather than Groups IO?

We've had a google group for years. I was unaware of Groups IO. Looking at them now, they seem small (no groups came up with i searched for Objectivism and Ayn Rand), so I don't know how confident I should be that they will still exist in 10 years. I didn't see any mention of plain text or quoting in the marketing, but I saw stuff about markdown and rich text features. Skimming some random groups, I didn't find any examples where a group was writing plain text under quotes to see how the Groups IO website handles that. Have you tested them and found that they will work well for the way FI uses email? Do you know any important advantages over Google Groups for FI's use case?

Elliot Temple
www.elliottemple.com

[crawle...@gmail.com]

On 21/08/2018 16:04, Elliot Temple wrote:

> How about price controls? Capitalism rejects price controls, but you presumably are in favor of some?

Apologies for the long wait, I've been looking up what price controls
we've got here. I think they've got their place, but generally not
useful for most things.

Where there's a monopoly, then I think there needs to be some way to
prevent the supplier hiking prices to extreme levels as people have
nowhere else to go (I mean essentials like water, not luxuries like pay
TV). Here in the UK, there are limited controls on utilities and railway
fares, and limitations on interest rates for short-term loan suppliers.
Otherwise prices are pretty much a free for all; since there are other
suppliers, if something gets too expensive there are usually cheaper
options.

We also have a cap on university tuition fees, but this is largely a
paperwork exercise since most people obtain government loans for this
anyway, which is paid off over a period of time as a percentage of their
wages.

>>> Are you open to other ideas?
>>
>> Like what? I'll give anything a go!
>
> Like http://fallibleideas.com/capitalism

Much of that is what I already feel, although I think it's perhaps a bit
simplistic in places; some of it I definitely disagree with. I can write
in more detail if you wish.

>> Found it and subscribed. Out of curiosity, why Google rather than Groups IO?
>
> We've had a google group for years. I was unaware of Groups IO.
> Looking at them now, they seem small (no groups came up with i searched
> for Objectivism and Ayn Rand), so I don't know how confident I should be
> that they will still exist in 10 years.

It is run by the same person who started Onelist, the service that
eventually became Yahoo Groups. I don't know if they'll still be around
in ten years either, but one can say the same about Yahoo!

> I didn't see any mention of
> plain text or quoting in the marketing, but I saw stuff about markdown
> and rich text features. Skimming some random groups, I didn't find any
> examples where a group was writing plain text under quotes to see how
> the Groups IO website handles that. Have you tested them and found that
> they will work well for the way FI uses email? Do you know any important
> advantages over Google Groups for FI's use case?

It certainly works well with the usual quote-then-post system. There are
measures to prevent full quoting of old posts under new ones,
particularly for digest subscribers. I haven't tried it with their web
site, all my mailing lists are done by email, I don't like web forums.

(Apoligies if the formatting for this post is wrong; Seamonkey only puts
a quote mark at the beginning of the paragraph, not of each line. I've
added them, and it looks all right here, I hope what I'm seeing is what
gets sent! Otherwise I'll go back to Thunderbird.)

Richard

[Elliot Temple]

On Aug 31, 2018, at 2:49 AM, crawle...@gmail.com wrote:

> On 21/08/2018 16:04, Elliot Temple wrote:
>
>> How about price controls? Capitalism rejects price controls, but you presumably are in favor of some?
>
>
> Apologies for the long wait, I've been looking up what price controls we've got here. I think they've got their place, but generally not useful for most things.
>
> Where there's a monopoly, then I think there needs to be some way to prevent the supplier hiking prices to extreme levels as people have nowhere else to go (I mean essentials like water, not luxuries like pay TV). Here in the UK, there are limited controls on utilities and railway fares, and limitations on interest rates for short-term loan suppliers. Otherwise prices are pretty much a free for all; since there are other suppliers, if something gets too expensive there are usually cheaper options.
>
> We also have a cap on university tuition fees, but this is largely a paperwork exercise since most people obtain government loans for this anyway, which is paid off over a period of time as a percentage of their wages.

Minimum wage laws are a price control on the price of labor. Any comment on those?

Also do you have any kind of *principle* by which you decide whether to approve of disapprove of particular price controls? Is your opinion related to economics in some way?

Also you didn’t say whether you agree or disagree with price controls on short term (“payday”) loans. I think those price controls make those loans less available to people who “need” them (face disaster without them, and therefore can substantially benefit from them). Price caps reduce the supply of a product below what the free market would provide, and thereby deny the product to some customers. (Unless the price cap is set high enough to not really matter.

You also didn’t say whether you agree or disagree with price controls on university tuition, you only said you don’t think they matter much because the government also interferes in that market in other ways (which you also didn’t express an opinion about).

>>>> Are you open to other ideas?
>>>
>>> Like what? I'll give anything a go!
>> Like http://fallibleideas.com/capitalism
>
> Much of that is what I already feel, although I think it's perhaps a bit simplistic in places; some of it I definitely disagree with. I can write in more detail if you wish.

If you can quote something you disagree with and point out why it’s *false*, that’d be great. As a first priority, please begin with anything which is false as a matter of *economics*, then move on to other categories of issues later. If you disagree but can’t point out why something is *false*, then please clearly state that you found zero false statements in the essay, and explain what other type of criticism you have.

>>> Found it and subscribed. Out of curiosity, why Google rather than Groups IO?
>> We've had a google group for years. I was unaware of Groups IO.
>> Looking at them now, they seem small (no groups came up with i searched
>> for Objectivism and Ayn Rand), so I don't know how confident I should be
>> that they will still exist in 10 years.
>
> It is run by the same person who started Onelist, the service that eventually became Yahoo Groups. I don't know if they'll still be around in ten years either, but one can say the same about Yahoo!
>
>> I didn't see any mention of
>> plain text or quoting in the marketing, but I saw stuff about markdown
>> and rich text features. Skimming some random groups, I didn't find any
>> examples where a group was writing plain text under quotes to see how
>> the Groups IO website handles that. Have you tested them and found that
>> they will work well for the way FI uses email? Do you know any important
>> advantages over Google Groups for FI's use case?
>
> It certainly works well with the usual quote-then-post system. There are measures to prevent full quoting of old posts under new ones, particularly for digest subscribers. I haven't tried it with their web site, all my mailing lists are done by email, I don't like web forums.

Sounds OK but I don’t see positive upside to motivate switching, and I think there’s more risk of them shutting down (b/c they seem to be very small) compared to google groups.

> (Apoligies if the formatting for this post is wrong; Seamonkey only puts a quote mark at the beginning of the paragraph, not of each line. I've added them, and it looks all right here, I hope what I'm seeing is what gets sent! Otherwise I'll go back to Thunderbird.)

FYI, it should be one quote mark per literal paragraph. If there are separate lines, then those are each paragraphs. *Lines are paragraphs, literally*. Paragraphs are started and stopped by line breaks (plus by start and end of document).

It’s preferred not to hard wrap text, but it’s allowed to do it. Having each English paragraph sent as one paragraph (that is, on one line) is the nicest so text can reflow correctly. But this may only work correctly if you are using software which sends email in a reasonable way, e.g. by using quoted printable content transfer encoding.


Elliot Temple
www.curi.us

[crawle...@gmail.com]

On 31/08/2018 16:05, Elliot Temple wrote:
> On Aug 31, 2018, at 2:49 AM, crawle...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> On 21/08/2018 16:04, Elliot Temple wrote:
>>
>>> How about price controls? Capitalism rejects price controls, but you presumably are in favor of some?
>>
>>
>> Apologies for the long wait, I've been looking up what price controls we've got here. I think they've got their place, but generally not useful for most things.
>>
>> Where there's a monopoly, then I think there needs to be some way to prevent the supplier hiking prices to extreme levels as people have nowhere else to go (I mean essentials like water, not luxuries like pay TV). Here in the UK, there are limited controls on utilities and railway fares, and limitations on interest rates for short-term loan suppliers. Otherwise prices are pretty much a free for all; since there are other suppliers, if something gets too expensive there are usually cheaper options.
>>
>> We also have a cap on university tuition fees, but this is largely a paperwork exercise since most people obtain government loans for this anyway, which is paid off over a period of time as a percentage of their wages.
>
> Minimum wage laws are a price control on the price of labor. Any comment on those?

I have no problem with a minimum wage. I'm not sure I's call it the
"price of labour" in that way as that sounds like work is a commodity to
be sold, like a tin of beans, whereas in fact the operation is the other
way round.

The minimum wage was introduced to ensure that workers didn't get ripped
off. Unfortunately, the labour market isn't such that if you don't like
one employer you can just go and get another; despite what the
governments tell us, there are not swathes of companies desparate for
employees.

> Also do you have any kind of *principle* by which you decide whether
> to approve of disapprove of particular price controls?

Does such a control help or hinder? In particular, does it help or
hinder the customer? In a monopoly, the answer is probably yes.
Otherwise, probably not.

> Is your opinion related to economics in some way?

I'm not an economist, so I can't really say.

> Also you didn’t say whether you agree or disagree with price controls on short term (“payday”) loans. I think those price controls make those loans less available to people who “need” them (face disaster without them, and therefore can substantially benefit from them).

If I need to borrow £100 until the end of the month, having to pay back
£200 isn't going to help me in the slightest, and that's the sort of
rates that were being charged. The new limits are 0.8% interest per day
and an absolute maximum of 100%. I don't have the slightest problem with
this, and it certainly hasn't made loans less available. Why do you
think it wouild?

> Price caps reduce the supply of a product below what the free market would provide, and thereby deny the product to some customers. (Unless the price cap is set high enough to not really matter.

I can see that would happen if the cap was less then the price needed to
support its production. I don't think that's ever happened, though.

> You also didn’t say whether you agree or disagree with price controls on university tuition, you only said you don’t think they matter much because the government also interferes in that market in other ways (which you also didn’t express an opinion about).

Before 1998, all full-time university tuition was free, financed by the
government (for UK students - overseas students always paid for their
own). After that, universities were allowed to charge up to £1,000
(since risen to £9,000) per student per year.

Students can apply for a loan from the government for the full amount,
which is paid directly to the university. This loan is repayable through
the PAYE system, as a percentage of earnings above £25,000. After 30
years, regardless of amount repaid if any, the loan is cancelled.

My opinion is that, because of the way the loan is operated and the
relatively high level of defaulting, they system is largely pointless
and should revert to direct financing.

I don't know what you mean by the government interfering in other ways.
Money for education has been a problem for a long time, with schools
often complaining about lack of funds resulting in shortages of books
and other materials. Most education is financed by local rather than
national government, and it is always something of a juggling act to
ensure everything needed is paid for. Perhaps there should be more
"interference" (pronounced money) from central government - but even
then, the money would have to come from somehere else.

A new problem is that some schools and colleges are run by private
for-profit organisations independent of the LEA, with much of their
money being used to pay their directors rather than buying equipment.

>>> Like http://fallibleideas.com/capitalism
>>
>> Much of that is what I already feel, although I think it's perhaps a bit simplistic in places; some of it I definitely disagree with. I can write in more detail if you wish.
>
> If you can quote something you disagree with and point out why it’s *false*, that’d be great. As a first priority, please begin with anything which is false as a matter of *economics*, then move on to other categories of issues later. If you disagree but can’t point out why something is *false*, then please clearly state that you found zero false statements in the essay, and explain what other type of criticism you have.

I'll have a think and see what I can come up with. Like I said though,
I'm not an economist, so my knowledge of "economics" is prely from the
point of view of a consumer (and one-time reseller).

Richard.

[Elliot Temple]

On Sep 16, 2018, at 6:11 AM, crawle...@gmail.com wrote:

> On 31/08/2018 16:05, Elliot Temple wrote:
>> On Aug 31, 2018, at 2:49 AM, crawle...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On 21/08/2018 16:04, Elliot Temple wrote:
>>>
>>>> How about price controls? Capitalism rejects price controls, but you presumably are in favor of some?
>>>
>>>
>>> Apologies for the long wait, I've been looking up what price controls we've got here. I think they've got their place, but generally not useful for most things.
>>>
>>> Where there's a monopoly, then I think there needs to be some way to prevent the supplier hiking prices to extreme levels as people have nowhere else to go (I mean essentials like water, not luxuries like pay TV). Here in the UK, there are limited controls on utilities and railway fares, and limitations on interest rates for short-term loan suppliers. Otherwise prices are pretty much a free for all; since there are other suppliers, if something gets too expensive there are usually cheaper options.
>>>
>>> We also have a cap on university tuition fees, but this is largely a paperwork exercise since most people obtain government loans for this anyway, which is paid off over a period of time as a percentage of their wages.
>> Minimum wage laws are a price control on the price of labor. Any comment on those?
>
> I have no problem with a minimum wage. I'm not sure I's call it the "price of labour" in that way as that sounds like work is a commodity to be sold, like a tin of beans, whereas in fact the operation is the other way round.
>
> The minimum wage was introduced to ensure that workers didn't get ripped off. Unfortunately, the labour market isn't such that if you don't like one employer you can just go and get another; despite what the governments tell us, there are not swathes of companies desparate for employees.

The things you’re saying (whole email, not just this part) were refuted by economists long ago, but they're now common belief by the masses who have been influenced heavily by Marxist propaganda and other anti-liberal memes.

If you’d like to be educated about the minimum wage specifically, I recently educated Andy about its value here:

http://curi.us/2145-open-discussion-economics#c11029

He started out very opposed to it, but I quickly changed his mind, despite his repeated attempts to derail the discussion with tangents. At the link, you can get the same information which changed his mind. This was particularly effective and I recommend it. And learning that minimum wage laws actually harm workers is a good introduction to how many government policies are counter productive – people like the *goal* of the policy, but economists point out *the policy will not achieve its goal*.


Elliot Temple
www.fallibleideas.com