Build Thread

[Dhowman]

OK, got enough done to start an actual build thread.

Here's latest update and piccies.  BTW, spent the better part of the weekend trying to come up with a solution for those CAT6 connections on the original SBMS0.  NOT a fan of that and definitely happy no future SBMS0 owners will have to deal that THAT piece of the puzzle.

[Barry Timm]

FWIW, I had similar issues with the small twisted CATn stranded wires and eventually gave up and bought some solid core CATn wires which solved the problem. No need to open the gates to insert the wires and they tug tested without issue.

But I agree, as a small electrical novice, I don't like the finicky nature of the connections, nor of the ribbon wires, AT ALL!!

BTW, i also ordered the ferrules that Dacian recommends but had no idea how to use them. I tried crimping them but that just crushed them and made them useless, so assume they need to be soldered to the wires? I eventually switched to the sold core CATn wires to avoid the issue.

[Demosthien]

On Monday, 29 June 2020 14:41:38 UTC+1, Barry Timm wrote:

BTW, i also ordered the ferrules that Dacian recommends but had no idea how to use them. I tried crimping them but that just crushed them and made them useless, so assume they need to be soldered to the wires? I eventually switched to the sold core CATn wires to avoid the issue.

In case you didn't already know, ferrules require their own special crimping tool (these tools are generally quite horrifically expensive but there are cheap ones on AliExpress etc). A regular terminal crimping tool just wont cut it.

[Jim A]

Why didn't you just use the #18 wire for all the connections instead of splicing it to the cat6 wire?

[Barry Timm]

I did not know there is a special ferrule crimping tool.

[Dhowman]

Yeah, I picked this kit up and it seemed fine but not sure I would have had any better luck with a more expensive one.

[Dhowman]

@Dacian - Any reason you can't just provide a couple of female ethernet plugs in the side of SBMS for this (vs. cutting/stripping individual wire pairs)?

[Dhowman]

@Jim - "Why didn't you just use the #18 wire for all the connections instead of splicing it to the cat6 wire?"  Twisted wire pairs are recommended for these very low amperage/long wires to eliminate any inductive interference. 

[Rob Duncan]

All pro installers use ferrules. They provide better, non-slip, contact. Note that Victron products require 12 mm pins - longer than "standard". These can be purchased $2/100 pieces from FerrulesDirect.com  

$13 assortment of "standard" AWG/pin lengths

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B06XCX8FMZ/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1 

$23 crimper used with all

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00H950AK4/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

If you think that crimper is expensive, you should look into REAL crimping tools!

I used less than a foot of the ribbon connector, and 12 conductor round cable into my insulated battery housing for the balancing. Makes it easy to disconnect for reboot.  

[Dacian Todea]

Dhowman,

Solid core CAT5,6,7 ... is ideal used with thoe AVX connectors spec here https://media.digikey.com/pdf/Data%20Sheets/AVX%20PDFs/00927600x021x06_Spec.PDF last page has the details on how it is constructed internally.

Spring type connectors are the most reliable as they will maintain a proper contact resistance for the life of the installation without worry of temperature cycle or vibration making those contacts loose as this sort of installations are designed to work for 10 to 30 years.

All stranded wires are not designed to work without ferrules no matter what type of connector you use but they as mentioned by other below require a special crimping tool and yes that adds some cost thus solid wire may be a better choice.

While AVX suggest 18AWG solid wire can be used with those connectors those are the upper limit and they are very rigid and so very good strain relief will be needed to not put pressure on the connector.

The new Phoenix connectors are no different in this respect so they still require solid wires or feruless with stranded wires (but very hard to find such small feruless so solid wires are still the best choice) the only difference is that there are push buttons to make removing of the wires easier. In most cases wires will not need to be removed as you can always disconnect them from the other end if needed.

This new connector allow 26 AWG to 20AWG (0.5mm2) wire so no 18AWG posible spec here  https://www.tme.com/Document/64ad43a3b1c6f9487a2e2b96d5a40918/PTSA0.5-5-2.5-Z.pdf

Since the twisted pairs are needed for most of those low voltage low current measurement signals the CAT5,6,... are still the best option and also very common type of cable.

And you can find CAT6A cable with even 22AWG solid core wire if you like the thicker conductor for some reason (will be harder to work with in my opinion than AWG23) here is a link to one   https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/lapp/2170464/2320-2170464-10-ND/12163337  there are plenty more options like this is AWG23 solid wire https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/panduit-corp/PFO6X04BL-CEG/298-18032-10-ND/9635969 

You likely have the very thin 26AWG stranded wire and that will make sense why you have a hard time using it.

Cable is inexpensive is just that normaly is sold as full 1000ft reel https://www.amazon.com/1000ft-Unshielded-Twisted-Ethernet-trueCABLE/dp/B07FK88PX9

I just do not want to try and ship CAT6A cable to people as it will add to the weight of the parcel and that has a big impact especially when I ship to Europe or Australia.

[Demosthien]

On Monday, 29 June 2020 16:58:32 UTC+1, Rob Duncan wrote:

If you think that crimper is expensive, you should look into REAL crimping tools!

 Those are the ones I meant when I said expensive!

[Rob Duncan]

Lucky that you don't need one of these!

https://www.skygeek.com/crimping-tool.html

[Dhowman]

@Dacian - As always, I and I'm sure everyone else really appreciate the support you provide here, but it seems to me that a lot of it is taken up by things that would probably be best to include in the manual.  I've recommended other additions but this is a case in point.  Manual recommends CAT5 or CAT6.  There's nothing about it needing to be solid core.  The vast majority of CAT5 and 6 is NOT solid core.  I ran Ethernet through my entire house about 20 years ago and had a bunch laying around and none of it is solid core.  I think it's safe to say that MOST CAT wire folks have or purchase will not work for what you're recommending so it would be very helpful to specify SOLID core #23 or #22 CAT wire in the manual.  Anything else just won't work.  Even with the ferrules, stranded CAT wire is just too brittle/fragile once you unsheathe all those tiny twisted wire pairs.  And the square ferrule crimper I wound up buying still wouldn't produce a sufficiently smooth surface to make it into those tiny holes without getting hung up (the hexagonal crimper @Rob recommended below might work better).  And those holes, btw, are slightly different diameters.  Both those factors, I think, contributed to why some went in (but insufficiently captured) and others just wouldn't go at all.

FWIW, I plan to replace all the control wires with the #23 solid core you recommend below once I'm done with my capacity testing and before I move it all into into my camper.  Just would have been nice to have started out knowing that small detail.

@Rob - Thanks for the tip on the "easier to reboot" ribbon cable solution.  The project box I've got my SBMS mounted in seems to have enough room for easy plug/unplug of that connection from the back (tested that) but good to know there might be an easier solution.  Guess I'm assuming I'll only be doing that a few times in the beginning but once it's up and running, hardly ever.

Also, since I've got a Victron 24/12-70 converter with remote on/off, do those 12.5mm ferrules in your link work for those (I notice that dim includes the shoulder)?  Or do you think just stripping a sufficient amount of insulation off a solid core #23 or #22 would do the trick??  Def don't want to have to play the same games with CAT wires going (but not staying in) or not going at all into the Victron if I can avoid it.  ;-)

Thanks!

[Rob Duncan]

I know Dacian has MUCH more collective experience than any dozen of us put together. But my personal experience found 1) using stranded wire did not work at all, 2) the diameter/AWG was critical to proper connection tension, 3) use of a proper diameter and length hex crimped ferrule made a solid connection that could be inserted multiple times without any problems.

I use a high dollar wire stripper, suitable for Tefzel covered aircraft wires. It has circular sharp holes that do not damage strands as stranded wire us always used in aircraft. That said, losing a couple strands while stripping is not catastrophic. Letting loose strands dangle is! I have also doubled-back wire ends to double the diameter when attaching too-small wires to connector pins or ferrules if needed.

I can't add an image via my cell phone on this app. But will do so later showing my installation.

[Demosthien]

On Tuesday, 30 June 2020 12:25:20 UTC+1, Dhowman wrote:

probably be best to include in the manual.

For ease of updating/amending and keeping info about different versions up to date, a Wiki might be worthwhile.

[Barry Timm]

Dhowman, yes, I can confirm that the CATn solid core wires work perfectly well in the Victron Orion 24/12 CDC converter, as well as the Victron Multiplus 24/3000 as well as the Victron Phoenix 24/2000 Compact inverter. I am using all three of these devices with solid core CAT cable, no ferrules,

[Barry Timm]

There has been a prior discussion on this, and IIRC, Dacian had reasons to not go this route.

[Dacian Todea]

Dhowman,

Yes I should add a remark in the manual about using solid core wire as preferable vs stranded wires + ferrules as it will be much more cost effective and likely easier to install.

When I write the manual I do not think at all this possibilities and do not have that much time allocated to write the user manual.

My intention is to have on top of the user manual another document containing 3 to 4 different example of installation's from a small one to a very large install and include all components needed down to the wires. That way people less experienced can just get the closest example from what they want knowing all that will work correctly.

Stranded wires always required ferrules else when inserted in any type of connector they will get damaged and the stranded wires will end up everywhere plus the connection will be worse with each thermal cycle so stranded wires always needed either some sort of crimping connection or ferrules. There is plenty of solid CAT5 and CAT6 wire and it is used in fixed installations where the stranded cables are mostly for constructing cables to connect two devices so they have connectors at both ends.

I also installed CAT6 a few years ago in the entire house that is why I still have some CAT6 cable left over from that and it is 24AWG solid core wire I think it was just around $100 for 1000ft spool so very inexpensive in volume. If it was not that heavy I will have included a piece with every SBMS.

People rarely read the user manual and or Wiki or any other documentation as they think they know how to use the device. I will include more details about cables in the next user manual version.     

[Rob Duncan]

Cable attachment view. Pre-wiring cleanup.

[Barry Timm]

I like the idea of having two CAT connectors on the SBMS0 to make it so much easier to plug/unplug CAT wires to the SBMS0.

Is this something that might be considered for some future hardware version? Two CAT connectors would allow full exposure to all available ports.

You could even have some (optional) premade CAT cables with ringlets on the two shunt pairs and ferrules on the remaining wires for idiots like myself to much more easily connect everything.

I know this is all probably wishful thinking for a one man show with the kind of workload that Dacian has but perhaps a little food for thought, if it helps reduce the post purchase questions/build issues? :)

PS. I must be one of the few who read and reread the online manual at least 6 times before my package was even ordered or delivered. :)

[Dacian Todea]

RJ45 connectors are fairly large and in my opinion they are fairly low quality in terms of contact not very reliable long term connection.  Then people will need a tool to crimp connectors or maybe buy terminated cables and cut them.

There is no reason to remove connections on the SBMS0.  In theory you make the connections once and they should be there for 10 to 20 year. The connection should be reliable and last for that period of time in all sort of different operating conditions.

So why it looks like the ideal connector as I recommend twisted pair wires is is just not ideal (I especially do not like the fragile and unreliable contacts) for communication only is not a problem as if one of the pair is disconnected communication is not lost just maybe slightly reduced during lost contact.

  

  

[Dhowman]

@Dacian - "GD Users!"  lol  Having written and reviewed my fair share of software manuals over the years as an IT PM, I know the sentiment well.  TBH, kind of nice to not be on the wrong end of that stick for once.  But, yes, I've read and re-read your manual many times and hope you take my feedback in the spirit it's given.  I think covering the major FAQs you get here will require MUCH less time on your part were they covered in the manual than having to answer the same question over and over and over, and I'm sure I'm no exception in that regard.  And as much as I try to keep up with reading all the posts here and search the forum before posting a question or doing something dumb, there's nothing like having what you need to know in one place (i.e. RTFM!).  TBH, I might be inclined to recommend starting a documentation thread to capture topics from us all and maybe to announce when you've published a new version.  I'd even be happy to supply any content or provide editing and/or illustration help which I can just post there too.  There is nothing in this world quite so sweet to a DIY-er than concisely written, well illustrated and comprehensive documentation IMHO.  I've found that if/when you get that right, they pay you back many many times over.

BTW, just ordered the 22AWG wire you linked below.  I measured resistance from SBMS to shunts and getting almost 1 Ohm with all the connections I have on those lines now (SBMS > 18AWG > 26AWG > RJ45 > 26AWG > Shunt), which seems high for what they need to be able to measure so thinking I probably need to rip it all out and just go SBMS > 22AWG > Shunt for my capacity testing.  *big sigh*

@Barry - Ever think of changing your handle to Mr Victron??  lol  You own stock, I hope!  Seriously though, thanks for the confirmation on those remote on/off terminations.  As I mentioned above, will be running solid core #22 into them now (as soon as it arrives).

@Rob - Only other person I know running 2 SBMS's has two parallel Tesla banks they need to manage.  Is that what's on the other side of that wall from yours??  Nice install.  Especially like the plastidip or whatever that is on your mounting nuts.  (that doesn't sound right, does it?)

[Dacian Todea]

Dhowman,

The point was that yes good documentation is nice to have but it was never a huge priority for me as there were always more urgent things to do and writing a good documentation takes time.

Also you are in the minority as most people do not even read the install instruction pages let alone the rest of the manual. And the more pages I add to the manual the less people will want to even open the pdf.

And I'm not blaming anyone for that as many times I do the same myself (not reading the manuals).

90% of the questions I get have answer's in the user manual still having a manual will not help me reduce the amount of questions I need to answer.

26AWG should have 125mOhm/m thus 1Ohm seems a bit high unless you did not consider your multimeter zero offset error and actual resistance is much lower or you have very long cables.

There are also copper clad aluminium cables so that is also a possibility depending on where you sourced the cables.

 

[Rob Duncan]

Updated rear and frontal view of SBMS0 panels. I added the clear plastic shield to protect panel rear wiring from inadvertent damage if somebody misses the trashcan just below. The orange thread check is used as they are non-locking nuts. Front view showing standard Navion RV DVD and controls, but mounted on router cut clear plastic sheet with painted backside to match.

[Rob Duncan]

Images for my previous post. 

I could not get these to upload via Android i/f, even with these downsized images. Full screen did not work either.

[Dacian Todea]

Rob,

For some reason google did not liked your post and marked as possible spam.

Looks good guess the plexiglas is some distance away and it not touching the connectors.

[Rob Duncan]

Correct. Small block of wood used for spacing.

[Greg Norman]

@Dhowman I would love for someone to write a book/manual "Electrodacus for Dummies" I'd certainly be will to pay for it. Would need to cover: Chapter on RV i.e. wiring DC-DC charger, inverter charger, shore power, converters, inverter pre-charge, , etc. Let me know when you have one and how much.

[Greg Norman]

I'd certainly be willing to pay for copy!

[Dacian Todea]

Greg,

I will attempt to do that sort of manual when I have the time. The problem is that there is an infinite variety of requirements so it will never answer all questions. The idea is to make a document showing say 5 different setups and include all details from the complete wiring diagram to the name and model of each piece of equipment. The you can just select one of the 5 system buy all the parts in the list and be able to build that just following the detailed installation diagram. 

[Greg Norman]

Hi Dacian

I think that would be great. Not sure if you would like to use mine or this other one attached as a starting point.

[Greg Norman]

You might ask FilterGuy for use or assistance. He has a lot of great resources!

[FilterGuy]

Greg,

Dacian noted an error in the placement of the solar shunt in one of my examples.    Here is the corrected version.

Dacian,

If you want the original for any of my material,  feel free to PM me and I can send it to you.

[Kohala Jim]

nice work!

will be using this for future ref fer-shure'

[Greg Norman]

@FilterGuy Thanks so much.