Start-up Fantasies

[Paul Schroeer-Hannemann]

Back when I first found out about the DIYBio community I saw how inexpensive I could get basic equipment and materials and thought I might be able to start my own freelance DNA testing business or something.  You know, performing paternity tests, looking for genetic disorders in people with a family history, telling greenies whether their food is genetically modified... all for considerably less than what the big companies are charging.  I even worked out that I could get a thermocycler, centrifuge, electrophoresis tray, and most of the reagents for about a thousand dollars and the material cost per sample would be just a few bucks.  But then some people pointed out that malpractice insurance, establishing a clean lab, licensing, etc. would add several thousand dollars to the expenses.  AABB accreditation alone would be around $12,000/year.

Oh well, that's reality for you.  Probably a good thing that idea got killed prematurely, otherwise I might have even tried my idea of starting a company intended to spread Biotech as much as possible by enabling individuals or small groups to set themselves up as franchises or something.

[Koeng]

There are still plenty of things you can do with all that stuff! Here is just a small I idea :D

How about pcr cloning and subcloning services? Genscript charges 300 bucks, I am sure you could do it for cheaper. Think of the cost of a PCR reaction

polymerase master mix - 8 reactions - 1.60$

Primers - 2 - 40$ at most

Template - sent from buyer, 5$ purification

Cloning - max cost - 15$

Gel- 2$

Sequencing- 20 $

Minipreps and coli- 20$

Do it for like 200$ and get 100 dollars. 

[Cathal Garvey]

Why would you need lab accreditation? Isn't the reliability of your results
just an agreement between you and the customer?

Avoid human genetic testing unless you're prepared for an ethical minefield;
you can be on the hook for telling someone a truth they didn't want to hear.
Even worse is when you learn something that you're not sure they do or do not
want to hear, and even presenting the choice to them after the fact might be
"distressing", and grounds for a legal case. So unless you know all the
possible gotchas that might arise, and establish firmly *beforehand* what you
will and will not tell them, you stand to potentially get in trouble.

Really though, accreditation is for supply chains. For individual tasks, let
your customers decide whether they care about ISO. I wouldn't, personally,
provided I had a recommendation or some proof you know what you're doing.

[Simon Quellen Field]

I wouldn't worry.

How is this any different from astrology? Do customers of psychics sue them for telling them things they don't want to know?

Do people who buy plots on the moon sue if two of them end up with the same address?

Go ahead and sell paternity testing, or testing for certain cancer genes or GMO food.

Let people know that you are cheap because you have a higher error rate than the big guys.

Everyone signs the disclosure and all the risks are in large print, and you let them know the results won't stand up in court.

You aren't practicing medicine, there is no malpractice. Especially if you're testing GMO food.

Horoscopes have the same ethical issues, and lots of people make money that way.

You could test homeopathic remedies and always tell the customer "No, that is not 100% pure water" and always be right. Charge the believers more -- you already know they're gullible.

If you are testing for patented genes, or using patented techniques, licensing could be an issue. So don't. Or get the license, it may not be a big part of your operating expenses.

How about a service, call it "Own a Clone", that copies one or more of your genes, and sells a small vial of the replicated DNA on a necklace chain? Copy enough SNPs and the result is likely to be unique to that individual. A gift for Valentine's Day, or to exchange at a wedding. Put a vial of Fido's cloned DNA on the mantlepiece, after he's gone. Or skip the vial, dab some of the DNA on a postcard, it will probably last longer in the dry state. Dozens of science magazines would give you free publicity by writing articles about your lab.

How about paying celebrities for spit to amplify? Sell postcards of Bieber DNA or Jagger DNA. Or Watson or Venter.

Ethical minefields make for great publicity. How about selling vials of DNA from a hundred random people who sign releases, and market it as something to wipe all over your murder weapon before leaving the scene of the crime? With a good enough instruction page, you can sell rocks to people to use as pets.

For that matter, people on Death Row might sell you their DNA for cigarette money. Own a dab of Jeffrey Dahmer DNA, and a certificate of authenticity. The creepier it makes me feel, the more certain I am that it will make money.

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[David Murphy]

It does however depend on the country you're in. 

The human tissue act in the UK makes taking DNA samples into a legal minefield. You need to get licensed to hold human cells, you need all the paperwork to prove that the people the samples came from consented to every possible thing you might do with them (as does anyone who gets those samples from you) and god help you if someone sends in DNA that's not their own. (say someone gets a swab of a celebrities cells along with cells from someone who's possibly a child and sends them to you for testing pretending that it's their own/childs cells and then publishes a newspaper story about it. bets that the law won't be an ass just because you couldn't know?)

[Jeswin]

On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 1:15 PM, David Murphy <murphy...@gmail.com> wrote:
> It does however depend on the country you're in.
>
> The human tissue act in the UK makes taking DNA samples into a legal
> minefield. You need to get licensed to hold human cells, you need all the

Okay, so try something else. Plants? insects?

[Cathal Garvey (Phone)]

Yea, does depend on jurisdiction. For example, here a waiver is pretty useless if the client can argue "negligence", which is so broad it's practically guaranteed.

To give you some scale of the problem: This means some operations are never performed in Ireland no matter how critical. I personally know someone who had to fly to Mexico to get an operable brain tumour excised to save his life because the surgeons here were too afraid of legal action if he died, waiver or no.

So, genetic testing in Ireland for anything but trivial genes would require comprehensive insurance or a great mind for legal agreement wrangling.

Mind you, I've considered the "murder kit" too, just to prove how stupid overreliance on DNA evidence is in this age. :)

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Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

[David Murphy]

"Mind you, I've considered the "murder kit" too "

You mean running a handheld hoover over some public transport seats then scattering the dust all over everything you want to make hard to analyse?

[Bryan Bishop]

On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 12:35 PM, David Murphy <murphy...@gmail.com> wrote:

You mean running a handheld hoover over some public transport seats then scattering the dust all over everything you want to make hard to analyse?

No, he is probably referring to the collection of DNA from prison inmates on death row. You are taking his text out of context.

- Bryan
http://heybryan.org/
1 512 203 0507

[Paul Schroeer-Hannemann]

Well, for one thing astrology and homeopathy are bullshit.

For another I could screw something up and make someone think their wife cheated on them only for them to take another test and try to make me pay for their marriage counseling.

Heh, I can see the Kickstarter or Fundable rewards I could offer.  "Pledge $75 and receive your DNA in a laminated square, pledge $5,000 and get Justin Beiber's DNA."

[Cathal Garvey]

Nope, I was referring to offering a kit that explicitly allows plausible
deniability in cases where a person is prosecuted solely on DNA "evidence", to
demonstrate how stupid it is to consider DNA alone as proof of anything.

If you ran a kickstarter for that, you could probably get Amanda Knox to share
some of her immanent book earnings, or even donate her DNA to prove the point.
DNA alone means nothing, but to prove that you have to prove to a judge that
anyone could just use the same techniques used by a forensic technician to
create stupidly huge quantities of "ironclad evidence" in a spray bottle.

[Nathan McCorkle]

It's not a fantasy for me, more of a medium-term goal.

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[Cathal Garvey (Phone)]

Something more nuanced if less practical. A suitcase of common rflp fragments, a "build your own fingerprint". Or just a "fingerprint cloning kit": PCR mastermix and a small spraybottle to add your PCR product to.

It's trivial to fake what's considered Gold Standard, and while the hoover achieves this effectively, it doesn't send the message as clearly as demonstrating that the very methods used in forensics can perfectly subvert forensic analysis, too.

[David Murphy]

Didn't the CCC give out plastic copies of a ministers finger prints in a similar manner? 

Make it the DNA of the minister for justice rather than death row inmates for far more fun.

[Cathal Garvey]

Nice one! I was thinking it'd be fun to try and get a snippet of Elvis'
hair from a freaky body-part collector and add some spice to the "King
is Alive" myth. :)

On Thu, 9 May 2013 09:42:32 +0100
David Murphy <murphy...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Didn't the *CCC* give out plastic copies of a ministers finger prints

[SC]

Hi Paul,

Labs that do DNA tests on humans really do need to adhere to pretty strict standards for good reason.  You don't want to tell some guy that his wife's baby isn't his by mistake.   Also, even if you're correct, the husband may need to use the data in court.  Can you demonstrate proper chain of command of the sample?   If you don't have a license you could stir up all kinds of trouble.

 

Same with testing for hereditary defects.  Accidently (or correctly) tell someone they have Huntington's, they may go home and shoot themselves if they didn't have proper counseling.

 

But, there are plenty of things you could do without a license that don't have potentially disatrous effects on people's lives.   You could clone a human gene or operon and sell it. Find out what drug companies are looking for. Big Pharma have trade shows where money changes hands.   If that's a little too intense, how about starting with something for schools or homeschool folks to do, like designing a kit?  You could market it yourself or present it to a homeschool science supply company to include in their catalog.  Best of luck to you!  And please do let us know what you decide to do.

[Kermit Henson]

Has anyone thought about the "In vito diagnostic use only" law? For me, it's a bigger wall than getting an ISO or CLIA certification. Of course you can make a startup from open hardware or based on diybio movement, but I dont know wich costumers (and if they are an enough critical mass) would relly run diagnostic tests in a homemade lab.
Also, think about the "sample and data storage" law. Usually they ask you to keep data and sample for a few years. That's a fridge that never can't fail.
Undoubtaly, I'll would check the law in that country

[Kermit Henson]

May be if you think in a real case use it could be running sub-services. What about species identification? Bioinformatic services are running very cheap, and even free if you can get it by yourself.

[Kermit Henson]

[Paul Schroeer-Hannemann]

That would require a gene sequencer or something wouldn't it?

[Nathan McCorkle]

Actually someone could probably make a few bucks just processing
samples for sending to the local sequencing core (usually $10 per
sample there)... I'd say a pricing sweet spot would be $20-$25 per
sample, so you'd need to be able to process in less than an hour and
with less than $5 consumables to make $10/hour

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