periodontosis

[gobi]

At fist let me say, thats real cool and interessting stuff you are
doing!
Second: sorry for my bad english, I'm german.

I have a big problem : periodontosis
Dentists are telling me, there is nothing they can do, and my thees
have to been dranwn out. (!!)
Thats the same they did to my grandma in the same age - so no
progress???
Why there is now way to stop or better kill the bacterias sitting in
my jawbone?

I have read a bit about "phags" (correct english translation?) , but
found verry less infos about this god idea... killing the bacterias
with a virus.
Any Suggestions?
I'm not a biologist! Searching for (german speaking would be verry
helpful) contacts , ideas, help

Gobi

[Brian Degger]

Wow, sounds drastic, would suggest getting a second opinion,
Cheers
B

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[rwst]

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Periodontitis#Therapie

Because your grandma had the same problem, there might be a genetic
immune weakness against these special bacteria. In this case, indeed,
I would look for alternative antimicrobial treastment *in addition* to
that described in Wikipedia. Garlic, fragrant oils and phage treatment
are possibilities you should test---they might work for you.

(also mailed in German)

rwst

[FLOSTO UK]

Hi Gobi,
I had similar situation. Although it may not had been as severe as in
your case but it was definitely getting there. The solution for me was
root scaling, teeth irrigation with hydrogen peroxide solution and
probably diet change.
Before I started the treatment I had periodical molar root abscesses
on both arches(5 molars have been extracted because of abscesses),
some premolar had periodontitis (30-50% bone loss), and all gums had
sever gingivitis (dark red, highly inflamed and bleeding if touched or
during any food consumption).
Now I am still missing 5 molars, my premolars still have some bone
loss, but they are much more stable as gums have reattached to teeth.
The gums became normal colour and do not bleed at all. Inflammation in
the gums has gone as well but because of bone loss my shrinking gums
have revealed more of the teeth and now they look elongated.
In fact I had visited quite a few different clinics and dentists, but
had never been given an advice on how to deal with my problem. Most of
them were saying to brush teeth better and more often, use some mouth
washes and sometimes I was given ultrasonic root planing with no real
effect.
Then I started my healing process from buying one of those teeth
irrigators (the brand is Waterpick, but there are other makes as well)
and used simple hydrogen peroxide mouth wash solution (it is quite
cheap and I found it very effective). I used at least 0.5 litre of
solution for one wash, 2-3 time a day. This helped a lot with
gingivitis and in 3-4 weeks my gums' inflammation started to go down.
Next I had a root scaling. It is not ease to do this procedure right
especially when gums are inflamed and bleeding but in the places where
the teeth were cleaned properly gums went down much more quickly and
started to adhere to teeth. I had teeth scaling every 3 weeks until
all my calculus was removed under the gum line at the beginning and
now I do it every 2 month to remove all plague under the gums where I
can't reach myself and it did improve the situation.
Of course I had to change my diet as well. I completely removed all
sugary foods from my diet like sweets, pastry, sugar and so on, have a
lot of vegetables every day (I eat a big bowl of salad with every
meal) and take calcium supplements.
The next step will be to tray to regrow missing bone on jaws using
ultrasound as it's been done by Dr. Tarak El-Bialy from the University
of Alberta. I am in a process of building ultrasound device that
should be able to replicate Dr. Tarak El-Bialy experiment, the only
issue is how to follow a progress of the experiment.

Tom

[Thomas Stowe]

Isn't this more than a bit TMI and far off topic for the DIYBio list? 

Thomas C. Stowe

Email stowe....@gmail.com 

Texas Computer Services http://www.txpcservices.com

Portfolio/VCard/Resume/Blog http://www.thomasstowe.info

Phone +1-210-704-7289

[Thomas Stowe]

This is the stated intention of the group.

DIYbio.org is an organization dedicated to making biology an accessible pursuit for citizen scientists, amateur biologists and biological engineers who value openness and safety. This will require mechanisms for amateurs to increase their knowledge and skills, access to a community of experts, the development of a code of ethics, responsible oversight, and leadership on issues that are unique to doing biology outside of traditional professional settings.

[VRG]

Bacteria phage therapy is of Russian origin And see Russian literature on this

Rajagopal

[Mega]

I've no experience with that, but ever heard of Xylitol?

Dieser Zuckeralkohol soll bösartige Bakterien hemmen. Hilft gegen
Karies und Mittelohrenzündung, evt kann es auch hier helfen.
Jedenfalls kann es nicht schaden!!

In Deutschland wird es unter dem Namen Xucker gehandelt

Mfg

[Dakota Hamill]

This is exactly why I like this group, the original posters question led me to the discovery and learning of a few new things this morning.  Things which I otherwise would most likely not have ever had any intention to read up on.  So take each post as an opportunity to take something positive from.

Things I read up on

periodontitis-now I know what it is

Fusobacterium - the culprit of common plaque!  And also the culprit of periodontitis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fusobacterium

I also found a recent paper on the isolation of a new Phage that is host specific to the Fusobacterium that causes periodontitis

http://aem.asm.org/cgi/content/abstract/AEM.01135-10v1

It was published just last year in Sep 2010, the phage was isolated from a 24 year old patient with periodontitis's saliva.

That is pretty cool!  The person with the disease turns out to have a virus that "could" kill/hinder it's growth.

I've also attached the paper as a .pdf, but there is a link to full text in the top right of that page link.


Who knows Gobi?  Maybe you have a host specific phage in your saliva too.

The paper showed host specificity, unfortunatley it did not show total cell lysis, so it was fine at infecting them, but not killing them. 

****On a side note I had a friend, who was a 21 year old healthy female, who came very close to death a few times in a Boston Hospital while doctors were trying to figure out WHAT it was.

It turns out it was Lemierre's syndrome  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemierre%27s_syndrome  which is CAUSED BY THE SAME BACTERIA that causes periodontitis.  There have also been very few cases of it in the past hundred years I read.

Strange that this bacteria was fine in her mouth, but after it got into her blood stream after a dentists appointment she almost died.

Phage therapy seems very cool, I'd like to find a paper where it is used consistently to treat a certain disease.

Good luck in your quest for treatment.  BE INVOLVED, keep reading

-Dakota

[Nathan McCorkle]

On Sep 24, 2011 1:23 AM, "Thomas Stowe" <stowe....@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Isn't this more than a bit TMI and far off topic for the DIYBio list? 
>

No way... This is what its all about, as long as we promote safety and responsibility.

[Nathan McCorkle]

On Sep 25, 2011 8:25 AM, "Mega" <masters...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I've no experience with that, but ever heard of Xylitol?
>

There's a dentist in town here that started a xylitol based business... The gum is good, but I'm not a.regular user.

[Cathal Garvey]

That phage is probably lysogenic (haven't read article mind you), but you could isolate it, sequence it, axe the dormancy genes, and you'd have a real killer.

Aside: the main species behind acidic tooth decay is S.mutans. Years ago, a guy demonstrated replacing S.mutans with a non-acid producing cousin that had been engineered to produce a specific toxin (probably a bacteriocin). Results in human patients looked great, then that was it: I never heard of it again. Of course, the study was done under the auspices of a dental college, so I like to speculate that it was buried by the orthodontic illuminati.

[Simon Quellen Field]

Rinse once a day with 3% hydrogen peroxide, just before you floss.

Problem solved. Been doing it for years, get perfect checkups every

trip to the dentist. And your teeth get white.

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[gobi]

WOW.
I was off for the weekend an now I have this great feedback! Thanks a
lot folks.
I'll try to give some answers.
Hopefully my request is not to oftopic. I saw a little storry about
"Bio Hackers" in german televison, and tought - wow, that fits!
Onestly, I'm not a biologist and not a physician. But there is now way
to simple lay down an let my tees throw out, so I try too fight a bit,
and there is not much, I have to loose.

- I'm 45 years old, and yes, it's a fammily problem. As far as I know
not only a genetic problem, also bacterias given by licking the
pacifier and so on....
- yes, I'm a smoker and I know it's stupit
- I had an "open" scaling for the half jawbone. Open means, they cut
the gingiva and scrap affected bone away..... It was so painfull
(bone hurts for month) and without an remarkable result (maybe to
late) , so I refuse to do the other half.
- I was allready tested what bacterias I have:
Treponema denticola
Prophyromonas gingivatis
Tannerella forsynthia
... know as the red complex (hey, they die from oxogen - how about
that?).
- I get the advice to use essential oils: 5 Parts Lemongras; 10
Palmarosa; 10 Neroli. This really helps, but will not save me.

I really have to go over and over your messages..... For sure I'm not
able to read the academic text about the phages, is there really still
(again?) somenone working on this?

[Mac Cowell]

On Monday, September 26, 2011 at 12:24 PM, Cathal Garvey wrote:

Aside: the main species behind acidic tooth decay is S.mutans.

"Streptococcus mutans, the main cause of dental caries, binds to glycoproteins on the teeth. A clinical study (Kelly CG et al.; Nature Biotechnol. 1999) isolated the 20aa functional segment (p1025) that S.mutans uses to attach to the teeth. p1025 competitively inhibits the binding of S.mutans, causing unharmful bacteria to grow in its place, preventing the recolonization of S.mutans for 90 days.

We are engineering Lactobacillus bulgaricus, a bacteria commonly found in yogurt, to produce and secrete this peptide under a promoter activated by lactose." - http://2008.igem.org/Team:MIT

-- 
Mac Cowell // 775.553.5005 // @100ideas

[Patrik]

Hi Gobi,

Looks like quite a few people seem to have good results using hydrogen
peroxide, or a Waterpik. I've also seen people recommend combining
both, at Tom (FLOSTO UK) suggested above (google waterpik peroxide).
That might make sense in your case, since the Waterpik should be able
to do a better job at reaching below the gum line, and the peroxide
may be able to combat the anaerobic bacteria living there. This is
obviously not intended to be medical advice though. If you try this,
do let us know the results.

Here's some links for the science nerds on "red complex".
Unfortunately not much in terms of specific treatments - seems like
they're only just starting to scrape the surface in terms of molecular
methods:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?db=pubmed&cmd=link&linkname=pubmed_pubmed&uid=11312465

http://www.pennendo.com/Class%20of%202012/1st%20Year%20-%20Lit%20Review/10.%20Microbiology%20of%20AP%20II/articles/20.Rocas2005.pdf

http://www.endoexperience.com/userfiles/file/unnamed/No%20Pain%20No%20Gain.pdf

[rwst]

Some more links.

Merkblatt Periodontitis:
http://www.geschichteinchronologie.ch/med/merk/merkblatt-parodontitis.html

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phagentherapie

Phage therapy is traditional in Georgia/Russia:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eliava-Institut_f%C3%BCr_Phagenforschung
http://eliava-institute.org/

Still, stopping to smoke is your best option.
Best,
rwst

[Cathal Garvey]

Awesome! I love iGEM. <3

[gobi]

I also try this in the moment. Are you using the 3% pure or mixed with wather? 3% seem to bee a little bit hardcore!?

[Dakota Hamill]

I tried washing with 3% hydrogen peroxide diluted in some water, maybe 1:3 dilution. Once.  Whatever it said on the back of the bottle.

It left the WORST taste I have ever had in my mouth, and I could not get the taste out.  But it was a fun science experiment.

[Jeswin]

On Sat, Oct 1, 2011 at 12:44 PM, Dakota Hamill <dko...@gmail.com> wrote:

I tried washing with 3% hydrogen peroxide diluted in some water, maybe 1:3 dilution. Once.  Whatever it said on the back of the bottle.

It left the WORST taste I have ever had in my mouth, and I could not get the taste out.  But it was a fun science experiment.

I attest to this fact. I bet its some reaction with the skin cells or bacteria.

[Simon Quellen Field]

I use it at 3%.

I have not noticed any weird taste.

It breaks down into oxygen and water, so what's to taste?

But I use it after I brush, so whatever you were eating before rinsing

may have been the problem.

I floss while there is still some of it in my mouth, so that whatever bacteria

I dislodge gets a full dose. I do this in the shower, so it is really easy to rinse

completely (I have a beard, so brushing and flossing while I shower means

the shower easily  and conveniently washes away any toothpaste in my beard).

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[gobi]

Ok, this seems to be interesting, i'll keep you updated. I was iritated, because on the bottle they recomand a dilution from 5 - 10 (!)
Dont have a big problem with the taste, i just wanted to be to radical....

I use it with my brand new "sonicare" which shoots a little amount but with high pressure between the teeth.... we will see

A strange sidefact: yesterday I found my first hole . I never had one since my second teeth, witch seems to be typical for later peridontitis

[Simon Quellen Field]

It has occurred to me that people thinking that hydrogen peroxide

has a taste may be tasting the chlorine or chloramines in city water.

Try it undiluted, and you may find it tasteless.

We have our own well here on the farm, so we don't need chlorination.

Mountain water is excellent.

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[Patrik]

I've tried rinsing with the 3% and it does seem to have some taste,
but definitely not "worst taste I have ever had in my mouth". I don't
find it all that bad, and it does seem to be related to oxygen release
from the peroxide.

The taste may be related to the effect of oxygen on the microbes in
your mouth, or even on the fillings in your mouth. If you really get a
strong, instant taste, then I might wonder if the manufacturer has
perhaps added something to the peroxide to make it "for external use
only".

On Oct 2, 8:26 am, Simon Quellen Field <sfi...@scitoys.com> wrote:
> It has occurred to me that people thinking that hydrogen peroxide
> has a taste may be tasting the chlorine or chloramines in city water.
>
> Try it undiluted, and you may find it tasteless.
>
> We have our own well here on the farm, so we don't need chlorination.
> Mountain water is excellent.
>
> -----
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>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Oct 2, 2011 at 3:36 AM, gobi <go...@emw-r35.de> wrote:
> > Ok, this seems to be interesting, i'll keep you updated. I was iritated,
> > because on the bottle they recomand a dilution from 5 - 10 (!)
> > Dont have a big problem with the taste, i just wanted to be to radical....
>
> > I use it with my brand new "sonicare" which shoots a little amount but with
> > high pressure between the teeth.... we will see
>

> > A strange sidefact: yesterday I found my first hole . *I never had one*since my second teeth, witch seems to be typical for later peridontitis

[gobi]

Now some weeks later, my first impression:
It can't stop to reduction of the gum, this progess goes still on..... BUT since I use the peroxide I had now problem with   inflammation ! It often also stops the beginning of pain, witch seems to come from "more inside". Now my tooth seem to be a bit more strong.

WOW, Simon - I'm realy thankfull fpr your advice! (and on the other hand kind of angry, because why did no dentist told me ever about this!?)
If You once planing to travel to Berlin, let me know and be my guest!!

I will report furder on.....

[Simon Quellen Field]

I started using peroxide on the recommendation of my dentist.

It's a common thing here, like toothpaste.

There are many over-the-counter anti-inflammatory drugs you can take

for your inflammation problem.

However, get professional advice, not what you read on the Internet (including

here). I might recommend aspirin when your body is attacking itself (such as

in arthritis), but when it is attacking an actual infection, reducing inflammation

may just be telling your body not to fight. It might be better to kill the infection

than to shut down the inflammation your body is using to fight it.

Presumably you are also on some antibiotics by now?

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[venkat raj]

U are treating symptoms area..pl don't forget this mafy be due to some hiding infection in stomach.....broad spectrum antibiotic may ease the upward movement of bacteria into gum area. Pl attend to the caustive infection in some other area.Further lacto bacillus balcaricus is essential.h2o2may remove that further causing more infection under gums.

V.Rajagopalan

Sent from my iPad

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[venkat raj]

If sudden pain appears keep Anbesol ie benzocaine 20% and anesthetic till the professional treatment it is a local anesthetic.Never trust a dentist immediately for small pain.they try to aggravate it and do elaborate treatment altering the structure and biological agents inside the mouth creating a disturbance of immune system in the area.

V.Rajagopalan

Sent from my iPad

On 18-Nov-2011, at 3:08 AM, gobi <go...@emw-r35.de> wrote:

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[Nathan McCorkle]

Can you get a lab to identify the bacterial infection (it could be
several bacteria working together as a community)? Then you could find
out what the best method of getting rid of them.

Sending these folks a spit/gum swab sample might cost you, but it
could also give you a wealth of information:
http://www.secondgenome.com/our-services/order/

Patrik, are there phyloChip type services in Europe?

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[Patrik]

Actually, he already posted on the earlier thread which organisms are
involved:

https://groups.google.com/group/diybio/browse_thread/thread/d85808c3a1c2aa61/61f29639c3020026

> - I was allready tested what bacterias I have:
> Treponema denticola
> Prophyromonas gingivatis
> Tannerella forsynthia
> ... know as the red complex

This doesn't necessarily help us that much in combating the infection
though...

[Nathan McCorkle]

antibiotic/antimicrobial panel? look for something that kills them all...

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[gobi]

thats exactly what I'm looking for, but how to find?

Sorry, I didn't realised new posts here...
Meanwhile , nearly a year later, I'm still doing  the cleaning with hydrogen peroxide. It's helpfull, and if I miss it a few days, it's getting worser...
Gum is still getting less and less, I'm wondering how far this could go??

I lost one tooth, witch was allready verry loosely . The dentist showed it to me and it was full of plaque up to the root because of the gap betwenn tooth an bone... terrible.... no wonder that it made a big infection...

But loosing one tooth is better than loosing all of them in the moment....

[Nathan McCorkle]

maybe this

http://www.questdiagnostics.com/testcenter/BUOrderInfo.action?tc=16406X&labCode=QTE&fromPage=BUOrderinfo&fromPageKeyword=Antibiotic%20Microbial%20Assay

"
ANTIMICROB COMB,CF PANEL

Test Code
16406X

CPT Code(s)
87181 (x34)

Includes
Piperacillin and Tobramycin; Tobramycin and Meropenem; Tobramycin and
Ceftazidime; Tobramycin and Ticar/Clav; Tobramycin and Imipenem;
Tobramycin and Aztreonam; Meropenem and Amikacin; Imipenem and
Ciprofloxacin; Ceftazidime and Amikacin; Meropenem and Ciprofloxacin;
Piperacillin and Ciprofloxacin; Cefepime and Tobramycin

Preferred Specimen(s)
SEE INDIVIDUAL TEST COMPONENTS BELOW

Methodology
Antibiotic Gradient

Reference Range(s)
See Medical Report

Clinical Significance
The use of antimicrobial combinations for the treatment of infectious
diseases has become more common due to several factors including: more
severe infections, development of organism resistance, and infection
with multiple organisms. Antimicrobial combinations may help to expand
the spectrum of coverage, minimize drug toxicity, minimize development
of resistance, and may lead to antimicrobial combination synergy.
"

by using google translate and searching
antimikrobielle Panel assay site:.de
I found this company, who've I've seen before, their tests are a bit
expensive, but I think worth it for your health
http://www.biomerieux.de/servlet/srt/bio/germany/home

it's hard for me to read the results quickly to know if they're labs
or junk results... find yourself a medical laboratory through the
local hospital, call them and ask for this

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[Vrgopal]

There is a tablet which is crushed and used to clean the teeth with fingers in India. Name is G32
http://www.lovenaturalremedies.com/Alarsin/Dental-Care/G32-for-Teeth-Gums.html  see this link.It is made of Indian herbs. Very useful to protect your tooth loss

V.Rajagopalan

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[Nathan McCorkle]

Sounds good enough to try for $6.06, I would if my teeth were at such risk

From that page, in case you thought it was spam: (P.S. it would be
cool if we could get a list of the latin names for the 'Ingredients')
"
G32 is a best remedy for Gingivitis, Spongy, Painful, Swollen,
Bleeding gums. It is best helpful in Painful, Shaky and Aching teeth.

G32 as Gum & Oral Cavity massage, Dentifrice, Rinse and Gargle. Gives
relief from symptoms in 2-3 applications. Remarkable improvement in
2-3 days.
Indications:
GUMS : Gingivitis, Spongy, Painful, Swollen, Bleeding gums
TEETH : Painful, Shaky, Aching, Hyper-sensitive, Removes external
stains, Non-maligant common oral mucosal lesions : Leukoplakia
Sub-mucous fibrosis etc. stomatitis, ptyalisim, Trench mouth,
pharyngitis, sore throat, Halitosis
Post Oral Surgery : Scaling, Curetting, Gingivectomy, Excision, Extraction etc
Oral Trauma : Pre and Post wearing of appliances, Denture sores, Fixed
Frame abrations, Broken teeth ulcerations etc.
Dosages:
Crush 1 to 3 tablets G32 to fine powder. Massage this powder over
gums, teeth and on the effected parts and inside the whole mouth
properly, with the help of finger tip. Keep it for minimum five
minutes for effective action. Then rinse with fresh water. Repeat two
or three times a day as necessary.
Follow up after surgical measures: G32 twice a day. In acute diseased
conditions: G32 three times a day.
To maintain good Oral - Hygiene in health and sickness - Use G32
regularly as above, morning and at bed time.
Results supported by clinical trials from all over India show:
Stops gum bleeding, reduces inflammation.
Restores normal orange peel appearance and texture of the gums
Helps healing process by Kertinization and Granulation
Improves Oral Hygiene
Gingivectomy can be avoided in stage I and II periodontitis by 3-4
weeks treatment with G32
Effective in non-malignant common oral mucosal lesions
Ingredients:
Bakul, Chok, Katha, Laving, Chikni Sopari, Fatakdi, Maiphala, Elaichi,
Sonageru, Jira, Majith, Pushanbhed, Vavading, Pipal Lakh, Samudraphen,
Vajradanti, Taj, Kali Mirch, Sajikhar, Kulinjana, Pipar, Kapur.

[rwst]

When I posted my ideas what you could try, I missed xylitol (=xylit), preferably as chewing gum.
I have used it myself to control infections around the head. This is *practically an antibiotic you
can buy OTC, so prepare for bowel side effects if you use it heavily.

[Nathan McCorkle]

Xylitol maybe a good try, being also in chewing gum form (cowgummi) makes it seem less like treatment!

You might also consider another ayurvedic treatment called 'Dant manjan' by the company 'dabur', it's a red powder you put on your toothbrush and add a drop of water, instead of tooth paste

http://www.dabur.com/Products-Health%20Care-Red%20Tooth%20Powder

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[Mega]

If it were my teeth, I would use Xylitol.

And in fact, I use it. Bought like 3 kg (1.5 kg * 2) for some Euros   (it surely was affordable, don't remember. Maybe 25€ alltogether?)  and it was many many month ago.

I've been coonsuming one tea spoon of Xylitol a day for some month, and now for several month just every now and then (when I feel like it). And there is still some 0.5 kilogram left. You womn't run out of stuff ever :D


Xylitiol is not only against cavities, it is said to be bacteriostatic in general.


Summa sumarum, the few bucks it costs is absolutely worth that it may save one's teeth. And it tastes great too :D

[Matt Larson]

If you have an infection in your jaw, antibiotics would be the way to go!!

S. mutans is not going to be the bacteria causing periodontitus, it
would be something like P. gingivalis (a gram negative bacteria).
The best protection against S. mutans, besides

On the whole, for natural treatments against oral bacteria, perhaps
cranberry juice might be a good option? It has some natural sugars
that block colonization by bacteria, and was a treatment for GI
problems.

This treatment for S. mutans looks quite interesting:
http://adr.sagepub.com/content/24/2/94.full

Its a peptide that messes up the cytoplasmic membrane (specific to S.
mutans) and kills the cells quickly, but doesn't affect other microbes
so you could keep the other good bacteria around.

-Matt Larson

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[Mega]

http://www.xucker.de/xucker-xylit-xylitol-pulver/fein-grob-kombination/

This was the one I got.





Am Freitag, 23. September 2011 00:31:42 UTC+2 schrieb gobi:

At fist let me say, thats real cool and interessting stuff you are
doing!
Second: sorry for my bad english, I'm german.

I have a big problem : periodontosis
Dentists are telling me, there is nothing they can do, and my thees
have to been dranwn out. (!!)
Thats the same they did to my grandma in the same age - so no
progress???
Why there is now way to stop or better kill the bacterias sitting in
my jawbone?

I have read a bit about "phags" (correct english translation?) , but
found verry less infos about this god idea... killing the bacterias
with a virus.
Any Suggestions?
I'm not a biologist! Searching for (german speaking would be verry
helpful) contacts , ideas, help

Gobi

[Nathan McCorkle]

The xylitol will only be effective if you hold it in your mouth and do not swallow

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[Gavin Scott]

There's also This stuff (a Chlorhexidine Gluconate Oral Rinse) that my oral hygienist has me rinse my mouth out with before she starts scratching away. It's supposed to kill off 90-something percent of the bugs in your mouth and is prescribed for people with advanced periodontal disease I believe.

G. 

[Gavin Scott]

On Friday, August 31, 2012 3:56:32 PM UTC-5, Gavin Scott wrote:

There's also This stuff (a Chlorhexidine Gluconate Oral Rinse) that my oral hygienist has me rinse my mouth out with before she starts scratching away. It's supposed to kill off 90-something percent of the bugs in your mouth and is prescribed for people with advanced periodontal disease I believe.

Actually it seems to be prescribed for gingivitis, not periodontitis. More details and prescribing info here.

G.

[Andreas Sturm]

But Imo you wanna kill the bugs selectively, not 90% of all.

Because without the good bugs, the bad ones can spread easily thereafter.

[Jonathan Cline]

Recently in the general news is this dental-related headline which can be backtracked to the university papers below. 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-19435442

Coconut oil could combat tooth decay

As usual, journalists fail to link directly to the papers summarized, so some searching is required.  Also not to start on a rant neo-hippie about corporate-institutionalized-medicine america disregarding simple (perhaps non-patentable) solutions for complex treatments but I would bet a sugar cube that dentists prefer cancer-promoting and gum-deteriorating fluoride toothpastes & treatments to those basics mentioned below.   BTW some people enjoy brushing their teeth with Dr Bronners liquid soap which is a coconut-oil based soap ( www.drbronner.com )

First article:

-- quote --

Efficacy of sodium hypochlorite and coconut soap used as disinfecting agents in the reduction of denture stomatitis, Streptococcus mutans and Candida albicans

1. W. Barnabé^1,2,
2. T. de Mendonça Neto¹,
3. F. C. Pimenta³,
4. L. F. Pegoraro¹,
5. J. M. Scolaro¹

Article first published online: 5 MAY 2004

DOI: 10.1111/j.1365-2842.2004.01254.x

summary  This study evaluated the reduction of denture stomatitis and the antimicrobial activity of 0·05% sodium hypochlorite opposed to Candida albicans and Streptococcus mutans (SGM) when associated with brushing complete dentures with coconut soap. The mucosal characteristics were evaluated according to Newton's classification at baseline, after cleansing the dentures with coconut soap for 15 days in group 1 (nine patients). In the other group (19 patients) the analysis were made before and after cleansing the dentures with coconut soap and with disinfection in a soak solution of 0·05% sodium hypochlorite for 10 min during 15 days. Microbiological tests were used to isolate C. albicans and SGM. Mann–Whitney and Wilcoxon tests were used to compare the mucosal characteristics and Fisher test and McNemar test to compare C. albicans and SGM levels. Statistical analysis at the 95% confidence level (P < 0·05) showed that: (i) the association of coconut soap and 0·05% sodium hypochlorite significantly reduced clinical signs of denture stomatitis, (ii) C. albicans did not reduce in counts, (iii) SGM were reduced but not significantly and (iv) the association of coconut soap and 0·5% sodium hypochlorite was effective in controlling denture biofilm

-- end quote --

Second article:

-- quote --

LWT - Food Science and Technology

Volume 44, Issue 6, July 2011, Pages 1525–1532

The effect of untreated and enzyme-treated commercial dairy powders on the growth and adhesion of Streptococcus mutans

• R.M. Halpin^{a, ,} ,
• D.B. Brady^{b, 1},
• E.D. O’Riordan^a,
• M. O’Sullivan^a

• ^a School of Agriculture, Food Science and Veterinary Medicine, University College Dublin, Ireland
• ^b School of Biomolecular and Biomedical Science, University College Dublin, Ireland

http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.lwt.2011.01.025

Abstract

Dental caries is a common bacterial infection, but the progression of this disease can be delayed by preventing initial attachment of cariogenic bacteria such as Streptococcus mutans to tooth surfaces. This study firstly compares the effect of untreated (UT) and enzyme-treated (ET) dairy powders on the adherence of S. mutans to hydroxylapatite (HA), an analogue of tooth enamel. A fluorescence-based method was used to quantify adherence of S. mutans to HA both in the presence (S-HA) and absence (PBS-HA) of saliva. Secondly, binding of proteins present in the test materials to HA was quantified using bicinchonic acid assays and SDS-PAGE. In addition, the effect of UT and ET dairy powders on growth of S. mutans was examined using an optical-density based assay. UT acid whey protein concentrate (WPC) 80, sweet WPC80, buttermilk powder (BMP) and cream powder (CP) significantly (P < 0.05) inhibited adhesion of S. mutans at ≥31.25 μg mL⁻¹ in the presence and absence of saliva. ET dairy powders were less effective inhibitors of adhesion, but ET sweet WPC80 significantly (P < 0.05) inhibited growth of S. mutans at ≥0.6 mg mL⁻¹. Therefore, due to their adherence- and growth-inhibitory properties, dairy powders may be beneficial in the treatment of dental caries.

-- end quote --

Of course if you're using milk powders make sure to avoid imports from asia with the kidney-stone-causing Chinese melamine additives.  Every now and then, some supplier is still busted for reselling tainted product.

What's the enzyme?  Well the article is pay-walled, so someone with access can perhaps summarize.

## Jonathan Cline
## jcl...@ieee.org
## Mobile: +1-805-617-0223
########################

[Cathal Garvey]

On the sodium hypochlorite article, that was for dentures; I personally
wouldn't like to put chlorine bleach on my teeth, although I'll grant
you that 0.05% is pretty weak.

On 06/09/12 04:39, Jonathan Cline wrote:
>
> Recently in the general news is this dental-related headline which can be
> backtracked to the university papers below.
>

> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-19435442Coconut oil could combat tooth

> decay
> As usual, journalists fail to link directly to the papers summarized, so
> some searching is required. Also not to start on a rant neo-hippie about
> corporate-institutionalized-medicine america disregarding simple (perhaps
> non-patentable) solutions for complex treatments but I would bet a sugar
> cube that dentists prefer cancer-promoting and gum-deteriorating fluoride
> toothpastes & treatments to those basics mentioned below. BTW some people
> enjoy brushing their teeth with Dr Bronners liquid soap which is a
> coconut-oil based soap ( www.drbronner.com )
>
> First article:
>
> -- quote --
>
> Efficacy of sodium hypochlorite and coconut soap used as disinfecting

> agents in the reduction of denture stomatitis, *Streptococcus mutans* and *Candida
> albicans*
>
> 1. W. Barnabé1,2,
> 2. T. de Mendonça Neto1,
> 3. F. C. Pimenta3,
> 4. L. F. Pegoraro1,
> 5. J. M. Scolaro1

>
> Article first published online: 5 MAY 2004
>
> DOI: 10.1111/j.1365-2842.2004.01254.x
>

> *summary * This study evaluated the reduction of denture stomatitis and the
> antimicrobial activity of 0·05% sodium hypochlorite opposed to *Candida
> albicans* and *Streptococcus mutans* (SGM) when associated with brushing

> complete dentures with coconut soap. The mucosal characteristics were
> evaluated according to Newton's classification at baseline, after cleansing
> the dentures with coconut soap for 15 days in group 1 (nine patients). In
> the other group (19 patients) the analysis were made before and after
> cleansing the dentures with coconut soap and with disinfection in a soak
> solution of 0·05% sodium hypochlorite for 10 min during 15 days.

> Microbiological tests were used to isolate *C. albicans* and SGM.

> Mann–Whitney and Wilcoxon tests were used to compare the mucosal

> characteristics and Fisher test and McNemar test to compare *C. albicans*and SGM levels. Statistical analysis at the 95% confidence level (
> *P* < 0·05) showed that: (i) the association of coconut soap and 0·05%

> sodium hypochlorite significantly reduced clinical signs of denture

> stomatitis, (ii) *C. albicans* did not reduce in counts, (iii) SGM were

> reduced but not significantly and (iv) the association of coconut soap and
> 0·5% sodium hypochlorite was effective in controlling denture biofilm
>
> -- end quote --
>
>
> Second article:
> -- quote --
>

> LWT - Food Science and Technology<http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/journal/00236438>
>
> Volume 44, Issue 6<http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/journal/00236438/44/6>,

> July 2011, Pages 1525–1532
>
> The effect of untreated and enzyme-treated commercial dairy powders on the

> growth and adhesion of *Streptococcus mutans*
>
> - R.M. Halpin<http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0023643811000521#>
> a<http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0023643811000521#aff1>,
> [image: Corresponding author contact information]<http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0023643811000521#cor1>,
> [image: E-mail the corresponding author] <rachel...@ucd.ie>,
> - D.B. Brady<http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0023643811000521#>
> b<http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0023643811000521#aff2>,
> 1<http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0023643811000521#fn1>,
>
> - E.D. O’Riordan<http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0023643811000521#>
> a<http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0023643811000521#aff1>,
>
> - M. O’Sullivan<http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0023643811000521#>
> a<http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0023643811000521#aff1>
>
>
> - a School of Agriculture, Food Science and Veterinary Medicine,
> University College Dublin, Ireland
> - b School of Biomolecular and Biomedical Science, University College

> Dublin, Ireland
>
> http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.lwt.2011.01.025
>
> Abstract
>
> Dental caries is a common bacterial infection, but the progression of this
> disease can be delayed by preventing initial attachment of cariogenic

> bacteria such as *Streptococcus mutans* to tooth surfaces. This study

> firstly compares the effect of untreated (UT) and enzyme-treated (ET) dairy

> powders on the adherence of *S. mutans* to hydroxylapatite (HA), an

> analogue of tooth enamel. A fluorescence-based method was used to quantify

> adherence of *S. mutans* to HA both in the presence (S-HA) and absence

> (PBS-HA) of saliva. Secondly, binding of proteins present in the test
> materials to HA was quantified using bicinchonic acid assays and SDS-PAGE.

> In addition, the effect of UT and ET dairy powders on growth of *S. mutans*was examined using an optical-density based assay. UT acid whey protein

> concentrate (WPC) 80, sweet WPC80, buttermilk powder (BMP) and cream powder

> (CP) significantly (*P* < 0.05) inhibited adhesion of *S. mutans* at

> ≥31.25 μg mL−1 in the presence and absence of saliva. ET dairy powders were

> less effective inhibitors of adhesion, but ET sweet WPC80 significantly (*P* < 0.05)
> inhibited growth of *S. mutans* at ≥0.6 mg mL−1. Therefore, due to their

> adherence- and growth-inhibitory properties, dairy powders may be
> beneficial in the treatment of dental caries.
>
> -- end quote --
>
>
> Of course if you're using milk powders make sure to avoid imports from asia
> with the kidney-stone-causing Chinese melamine additives. Every now and
> then, some supplier is still busted for reselling tainted product.
>
> What's the enzyme? Well the article is pay-walled, so someone with access
> can perhaps summarize.
>
>
> ## Jonathan Cline
> ## jcl...@ieee.org
> ## Mobile: +1-805-617-0223
> ########################
>
>

--
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twitter.com/onetruecathal
joindiaspora.com/u/cathalgarvey
PGP Public Key: http://bit.ly/CathalGKey

[gobi]

@Cathal: you would like, if you loosing teeth!

@Jonathan: Wow, thanks a lot for this enquiry!
Please keep in mind, i'm not a scientist...  so what would you suggest to try? Rinsing with coconut oil? What means "enzyme-modified coconut  oil", works it only  modified?
Did i get it right: brushing with coconut soap in solution with sodium hypochlorite , or would work hydrogen peroxide as well?

[Nathan McCorkle]

gobi,

I would be trying all of the above. Buy some Dr. Bronners peppermint soap, buy that Dabur Dantmanjan, the G32, the xylitol... keep up the H2O2, I'd even add rinsing your mouth with high-proof drinking ethanol.

You probably don't want to do more than 1 or 2 of those activities per day, but if you cycled through different treatments weekly... I think that would work. Maybe brush each day with Dr. Bronners, and every other day cycle through the list of alternate auxiliary treatments. This will hit the bacterial load with a variation of antimicrobials, but hopefully not damage your own mouth tissue.

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[Jeswin]

On Fri, Sep 7, 2012 at 4:04 AM, Nathan McCorkle <nmz...@gmail.com> wrote:

gobi,

I would be trying all of the above. Buy some Dr. Bronners peppermint soap, buy that Dabur Dantmanjan, the G32, the xylitol... keep up the H2O2, I'd even add rinsing your mouth with high-proof drinking ethanol.

You probably don't want to do more than 1 or 2 of those activities per day, but if you cycled through different treatments weekly... I think that would work. Maybe brush each day with Dr. Bronners, and every other day cycle through the list of alternate auxiliary treatments. This will hit the bacterial load with a variation of antimicrobials, but hopefully not damage your own mouth tissue.

Is there a way to replenish any good bacteria in the mouth that may be killed by the above treatments?

[Patrik D'haeseleer]

On Friday, September 7, 2012 5:30:55 AM UTC-7, phillyj wrote:

Is there a way to replenish any good bacteria in the mouth that may be killed by the above treatments?

Kiss someone with really good teeth?

[Andreas Sturm]

Actually that might be true.


Did you know that babies from birth on don't have streptococus mutans, which causes tooth decay, but they get it from their parents (kissing, licking their bottles/flasks, ... ) ?

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[gobi]

That was realy my  idear too... :)
But as far as i know, there might be also a correlation to bacterias living in the bowel. So, it's maybe not that easy..

Anyhow, maybe a good idear to turn someone on: "kiss me, i need your bacterias" ha, ha......

[Jonathan Cline]

On Friday, September 7, 2012 12:03:32 AM UTC-7, gobi wrote:

@Jonathan: Wow, thanks a lot for this enquiry!
Please keep in mind, i'm not a scientist...  so what would you suggest to try? Rinsing with coconut oil? What means "enzyme-modified coconut  oil", works it only  modified?
Did i get it right: brushing with coconut soap in solution with sodium hypochlorite , or would work hydrogen peroxide as well?

I don't know any more about that article because it's pay walled (i.e. $$ to download it) -- which means you'll have to go to a university to read it.  A smarter man would seek a medical professional who has alternate interpretations of your condition and not live by information posted to the internet.  They are rare but there are docs who willing to do extra research for alternate solutions.  And by the way since you admitted you're a smoker, then you obviously do not take your health very seriously, so focus your effort on that, duh.   (Don't bother mentioning anything about "trying to quit" or "working on it", it's a pretty black & white issue:  a user or an abstainer)

[Jeswin]

On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 2:11 AM, Jonathan Cline <jnc...@gmail.com> wrote:

research for alternate solutions.  And by the way since you admitted you're a smoker, then you obviously do not take your health very seriously, so focus your effort on that, duh.   (Don't bother mentioning anything about "trying to quit" or "working on it", it's a pretty black & white issue:  a user or an abstainer)

I agree. You have to quit for the sake of your teeth. I think smoking dries out the mouth. We need the saliva to prevent the bad bacterial growth