4 Questions to Ask Before Joining a Church - Missio Alliance
Bill Breck
Visited three churches in LA/San Diego last weekend, asked most of these questions and their sub-questions (and two more about their emphasis on the New Creation and Body life).
Which questions would you ask?
http://www.missioalliance.org/4-questions-to-ask-before-joining-a-church/
Dr. Ernie Prabhakar
If I had only four questions to ask, I would prefer to consider issues along these ideas:
Is the church making disciples in the ways of Jesus?
Is the church asking what the gospel of Jesus (not about Jesus) has to say about all aspects of life? What does the gospel of Jesus have to say about our relationships? Our families? Vocation? Finances? Racial reconciliation? Poverty? Hospitality? Sexuality? Are people in the church actually becoming more like Jesus? Are people learning how to combat the idols of our day? Are they learning to live for the sake of others?
Is the church activating all of the people of God to engage in mission and ministry?
Is the church helping people identify their gifts? Not just to serve in the church, but to engage in God’s mission. Are they being equipped to discovery how God is working in their neighborhood and through their vocation? Are people learning to discern how best to participate in what God is doing? Does the church equip and release people to start new ministries, missional communities and churches? Does the leadership of the church model missionary engagement? Does the church take responsibility for the last, the least and the lost in their community?
Is the church challenging people to feed themselves?
Is the church providing encouragement and resources to help people read, study and reflect on the word? Are there daily opportunities for people to be in the word individually, but more importantly in community? Are people encouraged to read and listen to other resources to equip them to become more like Jesus?
Is there an expression of the church in close proximity to my home?
Is the primary gathering of the church located in, or near my neighborhood? If not, is there an expression of community close enough for me to walk; one that is not disconnected from the rhythms of where I live and work? Is there a small group or missional community in my neighborhood where I can experience community with others in close proximity? A community where the word is not only studied, but where people are able to reflect communally on local missional engagement?
Final thought: I am convinced that until we fully grapple with, and understand the post-Christendom shift, as well as rethink the missionary nature of the church, we will be incapable of making the changes necessary in the way we think and act as the body of Christ.
Roy Tinklenberg
1. Is this a church where my family will be regularly fed by God’s Word?
2. Is this a church where I am convinced the care of my soul will be a priority?
Does this church have real pastors/elders who see their primary task to be the spiritual care and oversight of the souls of the members? In other words, just because they have powerful, biblical preaching does not mean your individual soul will be tended to on a regular basis. Ask the pastors. Ask other church members. It will not take much investigation on whether this work is a priority of the leadership of the church.
3. Is this a church where my family will experience meaningful Christian fellowship and accountability?
To know this, it will require a bit of a commitment to one church for a time to build relationships, attend some church fellowship events, and get to know some of the pastors and leadership. Yet you must have a realistic expectation as you are not yet a member, so do not expect to be treated as one.
4. Is this a church where I can serve God’s people and use my gifts for its benefit?
It will help to know where you are gifted and what some of the needs of the church are. Some needs can be filled by your simple presence and commitment. Also, do not assume you know what those areas of need are by your limited observations.
You should be able to know the answers to these questions within a few months of attending one church if you give yourself to the process. If you can answer in the affirmative to all four of these questions, it is a good possibility you have found your next church. At that point I would encourage you not to delay but to pursue membership.
Important Final Note
One final element is the key to persevering with the zeal required in this search. You and your family should feel a sense of persistent unease knowing that you are not in covenant fellowship with a local church and are not under the authority of undershepherds caring for your souls. The freedom and absence of accountability many experience in the search for a new church can cause a sinful complacency.
In other words, you do not ever want to become comfortable being one of God’s sheep who has wandered away from the fellowship of the flock and the accountability of shepherds to care for you, even if that journey at the time feels fun and exciting.
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Bill Breck
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Roy Tinklenberg
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Bill Breck
Should not question number 1 be: Does this Church teach and support the full deposit of faith (or just a relativized piece of it that is individualized for the pleasures of the church leaders)? If the answer is "No", we do not offer His real presence in the sacrifice of His body and blood -RUN!!!
Question 2: Does this church profess cessationism (that God no longer acts through signs, wonders and miracles)? If the listener laughs, scoffs or states God does not act nowadays through signs, wonders and miracles -RUN!!! (After all, is not salvation a sign, wonder and/or miracle?)
Perhaps God did not put you in the church you are in in order to receive the love of others, but to love others as Jesus loves you.
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Question 5: Is this a church where the leadership and active attendees passionately worships the LIVING God?
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Isn't there a missing question ? (Number 1) "Which church is my Lord guiding me to join?" The answer to this question may be a place where none of the other 4 questions are affirmed, but it might be a place where God is calling me and my family to serve Him by uplifting others and being part of the creation or restoration of those 4 values.
Thoughts anyone ?
Reply
That is the situation I am in by default. I joined what I thought was a strong church but now we have a new pastor (our previous one retired after 20 years. there were no problems he just was ready to slow down and move back home to care for an aging mother). Our new pastor is watering down our church and only wants to preach on emotional issues. Our leadership has shown themselves to be very weak and gullible.
I thought about leaving but since we are teachers there if Sunday school and midweek Bible studies, I realized we have an opportunity to really help people grow in their knowledge and understanding of God's Word. These people may not get this anywhere else and so I can do more work here than going to a church where this need is already being met.
It is also a good opportunity for me to learn love and patience and humility and trust that the Holy Spirit changes the hearts of men.
So, I agree, in very rare instances this could be true.
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This is good, but fails in one very important area:
5) Are the pastors and elders ("shepherds") servants or masters?
Do they "lord it over the flock?"
Are they prone to controlling, authoritarian, bullying treatment of "the sheep" in their care?
Are they shame-based or grace-based in their ministry?
Are people afraid to be transparent and honest for fear they will be put through emotional, verbal, spiritual abuse by those "overshepherds"?
Do they consider themselves better than the churches around them where the Word of God is also preached? (Are they holding to a spiritual arrogance?)
Yes, all of these questions are ONE question: Is it an abusive church?
I was in one for 16 years. I could say "YES" to all the four questions in this article. But when it came time for our eyes to be opened, and seek outside counsel, Godly men said, "FLEE." We did, and we and our family flourished in a more healthy church.
Others have also fled, and found refuge serving God wholeheartedly in "normal" churches - healthy, humble churches.
Beware of the excesses of the shepherding movement. I hear rumors of its resurgence, and wonder if history will repeat itself. Remember the lessons of the first time! Derek Prince, Bob Mumford, others. They ended up wounding and damaging the Church in mighty ways, then, seeing the damage, finally repented. Let those who read this be warned.
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Very important things here. As a husband and a father, I need to prioritize my family's spiritual growth and health, and ensure that they are getting solid expositional teaching from the bible and are being cared for.
That being said, I think something might be missing from this article. Maybe something along the lines of: "is this church committed to obeying the great commandment and reaching the lost?" A church needs to be pouring tons of resources into discipleship (making disciples who make disciples), mission, church planting, and engaging with non-Christians.
If a church had all of the above "inward" aspects totally down, but was failing to be salt and light in the world, I probably wouldn't join that church with my family.
Just a few thoughts :) I know the article wasn't meant to be exhaustive, so unappreciated what has been written.
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These are four great things but they seem to be internally focused, shouldn't the church be on a mission, living out the full scope of the great commandment and being the witnesses Christ talked about right before leaving the earth. Too many churches function more as holy huddles than hospitals for sinners. We must be careful not to be so internal we lose site of our neighbors who are on a path to a Christ-less eternity.
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How about ...where does God want me? These are consumer questions. Converts ask but not disciples
Reply
Amen, my bro. How about "Where can I serve?" "Where can I give to the ministry?"
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Some commenters seem to forget that this list of questions is not meant to be exhaustive. And the editors of this blog may want to read this article: http://www.theatlantic.com/...
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Sounds pretty selfish to me. What's in this church for ME??
Reply
"The distinction between self-interest and selfishness seems to be so blurred in current public discourse that self-interest nearly means selfishness." More thoughts from C. S. Lewis in this article written by someone else: http://www.transform-world....
We do need to consider, first of all, the edification value of any fellowship for ourselves and our family, since this is our immediate sphere of responsibility for which God holds us accountable.
But this article does not stop there. It also addresses fellowship with others, personal responsibility toward others, accountability to others, and service to God and others. If each of these areas are approached faithfully and fully, they seem fairly comprehensive to me.
What else would you add that this abbreviated summary doesn't include?
And
"What else would you add that this abbreviated summary doesn't include?" The Great Commission, Rick....the author certainly doesn't qualify this as an abbreviated summary...and why should an abbreviated summary not include the reason Jesus came to earth--To provide for redemption and to initiate a disciple-making community?
And
Bradley, I took these comments by the author (mentioned in the first paragraph related to the first question about teaching and preaching the word faithfully) as a clue that neither his ideas nor his article were exhaustive:
"This approach does not automatically answer this question, but it is a great place to start and evaluate."
If anyone mistook this article as the 'final word' on joining a church, or thought that the Great Commission should be neglected, I suppose your remarks and those of a few others have made it abundantly clear that sharing the gospel and making disciples should not be neglected. Thank you (and the others) for pointing this out (repeatedly). Now . . . go practice what you preach (just as the rest of us should do). =o)
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Interesting how the Church's #1 priority is missing. Oh, that's right, it's all about us!
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Amazing - all pretty much man-centered. How about 1 Cor. 12:18 - God places the members in the body where He desires! How about this question: "Where do I sense the Holy Spirit is telling me to join myself?"
Reply
I agree that the Holy Spirit should be our guide. His influence rests heavily on the humble seekers of Christ. I like the focus that these questions place on family. The family is ordained of God and there is nothing that God loves seeing more than families joining together eternally to learn to be like him. In a morally darkening society, our desire to find a safe place to raise our families spiritually coincides most perfectly with what God desires. With these desires and motives, the Holy Spirit will draw us closer to our Father.
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Helfpul benchmarks thanks. Having been at a church for some years (under the Lord's providence I know) which boasted "great preaching" but had practically non-existent individual care of the soul (by this I mean pastoral care, discipling, accountability) and it was SO hard. Hence I appreciate the caveat that not all churches boasting the best preaching (which might initially attract us or cause us to 'assume' this is the case) will automatically practice individual care of the soul etc. very well and that it's an important question to ask...(we should be "one anothering" after all right?!)
I think saying it's "me centric" risks misunderstanding the author, who's used the personal pronoun questions to ask or ascertain whether this church is a community that preaches and practices Christ, for example "will I be fed?" Is simply "do THEY feed their sheep", "will I get pastoral care/accountability?", "Do THEY care for their members through all of life (not just Sunday as a preaching centre), Do members practice accountability (challenge sin in one another in order to grow in godliness)
These are biblical not egocentric questions as I see it, but of course the list is not exhaustive... I for one eagerly look forward to belonging to the Church spoken of in Revelation, the truly "perfect" church...
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How about starting with the great command - Does this church love God? And does that show by having a passion for reaching people with the gospel? A passion or lack of passion will reveal much about the God/god they worship.
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These 4 are certainly important, but a little surprised to see mission (great commission) missing from this list :-(. We cannot just assume that a local congregation is "doing the Word". And it is often hard to tell without doing some asking/experiencing.
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T H I S :
I appreciate these questions but what is missing is notable. What about, "Does this Christian community resemble the Kingdom of God? Is there a foretaste here of God's Kingdom, in which diverse people from all nations will be gathered around the throne of God?" The fact that we evangelicals do not frequently ask that question may be one reason why our churches are so culturally homogenous.
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"To know this, it will require a bit of a commitment to one church for a time to build relationships, attend some church fellowship events, and get to know some of the pastors and leadership. Yet you must have a realistic expectation as you are not yet a member, so do not expect to be treated as one."
Don't expect to be treated as a club member til you sign the dotted line and start paying your dues to the man. These are the rules for playing the game of Churchianity. Such a great counterfeit whore of what Jesus died for. In the real kingdom of God (as opposed to the delusional fake religious kingdoms this article talks about) the saints in a local area ARE THE CHURCH. There is no baptist, methodist, etc 'church' in the bible. These are man made counterfeit kingdoms. We are all brothers and sisters on equal ground and are to be treated as such. If you are born again you ARE A MEMBER of the one true church. Flee from your slightly reformed roman catholic religious delusions dear believers. Leaders who have their personal kingdoms, allow people to call them 'Pastor Bob', have their names on buildings, etc will have a hard time accepting these truths as their lively hood depends on them not accepting them.
More at https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/what-questions-should-i-ask-before-joining-a-local-church
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Dr. Ernie Prabhakar
Great discussion, as always. I am still surprised by how easily we fall into “either-or” thinking: EITHER we are being fed, OR we are being called to serve others.
The debate seems to miss the point. The Biblical view — backed by modern science! — is that the happiest or “flourishing” life is one where we are continually nurturing our ability to fulfill our purpose and serve others. From this perspective, passive nourishment is itself a form of abuse…
— Ernie P.
Greg Holsclaw
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Bill Breck
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Bill Breck
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Bill Breck
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Roy Tinklenberg
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Bill Breck
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Bill Breck
Bill Breck
Traveling with a team of heavily resourced CEOs and entrepreneurs, Dave Gibbons arrives in September 2005 with high kingdom aspirations.
Following a large outreach service with unprecedented numbers of people coming, a few of the core Thai people come to Gibbons, slightly dejected.
“What’s wrong?” Gibbons asks.
“Thailand isn’t Newsong,” one of them says.
“What do you mean?’’
“We were always in little circles before and everyone got to talk.
Here, we were watching just a few people do it.”
The voice comes again clear as a bell: Listen, observe and learn.
Gibbons winds up spending a year in Thailand and begins to experience transitional insights.
When you don’t drive around in a car, you see faces and hear laughter as you walk.
When you aren’t calculating by numbers, loving relationship defines success.
When you see the brokenness of humanity, you recognize the value and beauty of hope only suffering can birth.
Even in a bustling city of 12 million, Gibbons slows down. The centrality of relationship returns in clarity.
* * * * *
Gibbons confesses to a love of chaos, the random multiple inputs and domains and possibilities of synthesis. Chaos is the place for him where pastor and businessman most fully congeal.
When he returns to Newsong in 2006, he apologizes to a congregation of 3,000 people. “I think I have helped build a church that is not after God’s own heart.”
In a short period of time, Gibbons makes several oxymoronic 180-degree shifts:
Small is big.
It’s not about preaching to people; it’s about loving them.
Pain fuels.
Reach the fringes for the maximum impact.
“Neighbor” is someone who doesn’t look like you.
Pragmatic reversals follow as well. A 70/30 split of resources flips from programs, events and buildings to greater investment in human development.
Focus switches from a Plexiglas pulpit to life in a messy community.
Growth strategy moves from the machinery involved in growing bigger to equipping personal destiny.
“Instead of a pastor setting a vision that leads to church growth,” Gibbons says, “leadership must discover the vision of the people and help each one reach the destiny God is calling them to.”
* * * * *
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Bill Breck
“At the end of the day, I saw that we weren’t addressing the approach that Jesus did. He did the big crowds, but it seems like most of his life was given to the conversation, where there were these one-on-ones and these small groups, and in particular, it was his three and 12… So I said what would it look like if we actually re-allocated our resources from just focusing primarily on the community to actually focusing on the core?”
“The millennials are hungering for leadership that’s actually fully present. So it’s not only that you’re authentic, but I think where we show the transcendent nature and power and beauty of God is when we can be fully present with someone and see them and know them and love them without any condition. And I think God is leading us to that dance.”
Bill's comments:
1. Amen amen amen to the rich interaction found in 1-1s and small groups
2. Not just "millennials" hunger for authenticity, presence
3. Being fully present should be how EVERYONE relates to others. (Sigh - endless, endless fixation on 'leaders')
Roy Tinklenberg
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Roy Tinklenberg
Bill Breck
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Bill Breck
Dr. Ernie Prabhakar
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Bill Breck
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Matthew Tiscareno
Dr. Ernie Prabhakar
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Dr. Ernie Prabhakar
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