Lease vs. Own
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Tricia Chirumbole
Apr 12, 2012, 10:32:32 AM4/12/12
to Coworking
Hello all!!
I am planning on starting a coworking space in Pittsburgh, PA and have
started with a meetup group and events and jellies - I agree with
other posts about the value of building a broader coworking community
that extends beyond finite physical spaces.
That being said, we do plan to ultimately open up a space. One of my
biggest questions is whether to buy or lease. It seems the predominant
model is leasing, which used to be my preference. However, I do have a
bias in general toward building equity vs. making money for landlords,
AND the market in Pittsburgh seems to be more amenable to buyers than
to renters at this time - I could be off on this as my research is far
from comprehensive, but this is the feel that I get.
I have an interest in property in general and my partner has both
design and building skills - while we would not do it all on our own,
we do feel that we could make good use of a property irrespective of
the long-term prospects of its use as our coworking home.
Any and all thoughts welcome and appreciated! I love this group - it
is so informative and valuable! Thanks in advance :)
I am planning on starting a coworking space in Pittsburgh, PA and have
started with a meetup group and events and jellies - I agree with
other posts about the value of building a broader coworking community
that extends beyond finite physical spaces.
That being said, we do plan to ultimately open up a space. One of my
biggest questions is whether to buy or lease. It seems the predominant
model is leasing, which used to be my preference. However, I do have a
bias in general toward building equity vs. making money for landlords,
AND the market in Pittsburgh seems to be more amenable to buyers than
to renters at this time - I could be off on this as my research is far
from comprehensive, but this is the feel that I get.
I have an interest in property in general and my partner has both
design and building skills - while we would not do it all on our own,
we do feel that we could make good use of a property irrespective of
the long-term prospects of its use as our coworking home.
Any and all thoughts welcome and appreciated! I love this group - it
is so informative and valuable! Thanks in advance :)
Alex Hillman
Apr 12, 2012, 11:04:29 AM4/12/12
to cowo...@googlegroups.com
I'm actually curious about this too, specifically to hear from coworking spaces that bought early on or those who have graduated to buying.
We're entering into our 3rd major growth phase and the purchasing conversation was on the table - it's not left the table, but we've chosen renting (with a purchase option written into the lease) in favor of the timing of our needs.
Our reasons for buying also include the desire to be building equity as the business grows, but also to continue to anchor ourselves in the neighborhood that we've developed a relationship with over the last 4+ years. We've helped attract lots of new businesses to the area (which is mutually beneficial) and think that impact could increase with a statement of "permanence" that comes with purchasing.
That said, I got one particular piece of advice that's been resonating with me: don't buy a seat on the bus.
A lot of coworking spaces are a floor or a section of a building with other tenants in it. Our current building is like this as well, but is already condo-ized for potential purchase of a floor or floors. In conversations about buying, I've come to the conclusion that we should be buying the building, not a condo in it.
I'm not sure what the situations you're looking for include, but that caution has stuck with me as a good one to consider.
Having never bought property before, though I don't have any specific experience to share how it might impact a coworking space or what implications to consider - so I'd love to hear more experiences from that realm.
-Alex
--You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Coworking" group.To post to this group, send email to cowo...@googlegroups.com.To unsubscribe from this group, send email to coworking+...@googlegroups.com.For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/coworking?hl=en.
John Wilker
Apr 12, 2012, 11:12:59 AM4/12/12
to cowo...@googlegroups.com
We are currently renting our space. But buying it or another has been on our minds since opening. Mainly so we're less limited in what we can do with and to the building, as well as improvements.
To Alex's point about buying a seat on the bus, you also typically don't want to spend a ton of time and money, making someone else's bus pretty and super awesome.
The motorcycle museum below us (basement) may be moving, and the building could someday be up for sale, so one option popping around has been securing first right of refusal on the building, and being able to expand labs and such downward when the museum leaves.
One thing with buying, even if coworking doesn't work out, you have a building to rent out, or do something with, for better or worse.
John Wilker
Founder, 360|Conferences
(720) 381-2370
twitter: jwilker
johnwilker.com | 360|MacDev | 360|Flex | 360|iDev
Founder, 360|Conferences
(720) 381-2370
twitter: jwilker
johnwilker.com | 360|MacDev | 360|Flex | 360|iDev
Jeannine
Apr 13, 2012, 5:03:53 AM4/13/12
to Coworking
I am a little bass-ackwards in this -- okay, not just in this. I
started Kamer52 in a space I already owned. I live in a 400 year old
house; the former stable has been used through the years as a lot fo
things, including a car painting shop, a bicycle shop, and so forth.
My in-laws converted it to two office spaces, a larger one which they
used themselves. and a smaller one which they rented out.
One of the spaces came free and I decided to introduce a cooperative
model of rural cowrking in it. Here's the first Kamer52, the street
address is 52a: (You didn't think you would get away without looking
at pics, did you)? https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/118169975709205235263/albums/5571687063520066545
After about a year, the size of the space was becoming an issue --
there were only two rooms and the kitchen, and if somebody had a
meeting in the large front space, nobody could use the smaller space
in the back. So we moved in January to the new Kamer52, in 52b, the
larger space which had just come free:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/118169975709205235263/albums/5696360039235509537
My new tenant in the smaller space is a computer repair shop, he has
jumped into the coworking thing with both feet and so now we have a
situation that is sort of coworking with an anchor, in both spaces.
Because I had to start with no community (I *know*, Alex, I *know*,
but when I started I was only partially literate in Dutch and may I
add that having immigrated here when I was pushing 40, starting with a
community is not as easy as you might think? I knew no one, other
than the parents of my kids' friends.) I don't think I could have done
it if I had been renting. I only had to cover my mortgage; the
utilities for a 400 year old building with half meter thick stone
walls are complicated but in essence it is wired and plumbed as one
building, there is no separation of the utilities and no duct work
absent a couple sticks of dynamite.
Because of the nature of the laws here, I have become quite chummy
with the folks at City Hall who deal with taxes, permits, zoning, and
so forth. Happily for me thay have in general been uncomprehending
but helpful. One of the issues we have to talk about in the immediate
future is that there are use taxes levied on each business registered
at an address, and I offer a virtual office. I want them to bring
those costs in and bill them to me so I can bill them through,
otherwise it's too confusing.
But they did cive me a permit to do retail in just the front room, so
long as I don't turn it into a storefront, and they allow me to have
periodic closed workshops in baking and cooking in the back room, as
long as I don't turn it into a cafe or restaurant offering food to the
public, and I call that flexible and am grateful for it. I got the
retail permit so we could sell art. But I am considering offering the
front room for use by people who sell handmade and crafted items; and
also for use by my webshops as a pop-up.
Indeed, if it doesn't work out, I will just rent it again, we rented
it for years and I could just keep doing that. But it's more fun this
way.
One thing which is popular in the Netherlands is for folks to enter
into a sort of partnership with property owners to improve the
building as part of the rent; this is especially popular with maker
spaces. (I wish I had a maker space, but we are in the center of town
and I can't get the zoning). I think property owners need to get with
the program and reconsider what it is that they are doing and
offering: commercial real estate has not changed in its essence since
the middle ages and I thinkit's about time it had an overhaul.
IF there are any questions, fire away, I could go on and on but don't
know what you would want to know.
Jeannine
> johnwilker.com (http://johnwilker.com/) | 360|MacDev (http://360macdev.com/) | 360|Flex (http://360flex.com/) | 360|iDev (http://360idev.com/)
> > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to coworking+...@googlegroups.com (mailto:coworking+...@googlegroups.com).
> > > For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/coworking?hl=en.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to coworking+...@googlegroups.com (mailto:coworking+...@googlegroups.com).
started Kamer52 in a space I already owned. I live in a 400 year old
house; the former stable has been used through the years as a lot fo
things, including a car painting shop, a bicycle shop, and so forth.
My in-laws converted it to two office spaces, a larger one which they
used themselves. and a smaller one which they rented out.
One of the spaces came free and I decided to introduce a cooperative
model of rural cowrking in it. Here's the first Kamer52, the street
address is 52a: (You didn't think you would get away without looking
at pics, did you)? https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/118169975709205235263/albums/5571687063520066545
After about a year, the size of the space was becoming an issue --
there were only two rooms and the kitchen, and if somebody had a
meeting in the large front space, nobody could use the smaller space
in the back. So we moved in January to the new Kamer52, in 52b, the
larger space which had just come free:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/118169975709205235263/albums/5696360039235509537
My new tenant in the smaller space is a computer repair shop, he has
jumped into the coworking thing with both feet and so now we have a
situation that is sort of coworking with an anchor, in both spaces.
Because I had to start with no community (I *know*, Alex, I *know*,
but when I started I was only partially literate in Dutch and may I
add that having immigrated here when I was pushing 40, starting with a
community is not as easy as you might think? I knew no one, other
than the parents of my kids' friends.) I don't think I could have done
it if I had been renting. I only had to cover my mortgage; the
utilities for a 400 year old building with half meter thick stone
walls are complicated but in essence it is wired and plumbed as one
building, there is no separation of the utilities and no duct work
absent a couple sticks of dynamite.
Because of the nature of the laws here, I have become quite chummy
with the folks at City Hall who deal with taxes, permits, zoning, and
so forth. Happily for me thay have in general been uncomprehending
but helpful. One of the issues we have to talk about in the immediate
future is that there are use taxes levied on each business registered
at an address, and I offer a virtual office. I want them to bring
those costs in and bill them to me so I can bill them through,
otherwise it's too confusing.
But they did cive me a permit to do retail in just the front room, so
long as I don't turn it into a storefront, and they allow me to have
periodic closed workshops in baking and cooking in the back room, as
long as I don't turn it into a cafe or restaurant offering food to the
public, and I call that flexible and am grateful for it. I got the
retail permit so we could sell art. But I am considering offering the
front room for use by people who sell handmade and crafted items; and
also for use by my webshops as a pop-up.
Indeed, if it doesn't work out, I will just rent it again, we rented
it for years and I could just keep doing that. But it's more fun this
way.
One thing which is popular in the Netherlands is for folks to enter
into a sort of partnership with property owners to improve the
building as part of the rent; this is especially popular with maker
spaces. (I wish I had a maker space, but we are in the center of town
and I can't get the zoning). I think property owners need to get with
the program and reconsider what it is that they are doing and
offering: commercial real estate has not changed in its essence since
the middle ages and I thinkit's about time it had an overhaul.
IF there are any questions, fire away, I could go on and on but don't
know what you would want to know.
Jeannine
On Apr 12, 5:12 pm, John Wilker <john.wil...@gmail.com> wrote:
> We are currently renting our space. But buying it or another has been on our minds since opening. Mainly so we're less limited in what we can do with and to the building, as well as improvements.
>
> To Alex's point about buying a seat on the bus, you also typically don't want to spend a ton of time and money, making someone else's bus pretty and super awesome.
>
> The motorcycle museum below us (basement) may be moving, and the building could someday be up for sale, so one option popping around has been securing first right of refusal on the building, and being able to expand labs and such downward when the museum leaves.
>
> One thing with buying, even if coworking doesn't work out, you have a building to rent out, or do something with, for better or worse.
>
> John Wilker
> Founder, 360|Conferences
> (720) 381-2370
> twitter: jwilker (http://twitter.com/jwilker)
> We are currently renting our space. But buying it or another has been on our minds since opening. Mainly so we're less limited in what we can do with and to the building, as well as improvements.
>
> To Alex's point about buying a seat on the bus, you also typically don't want to spend a ton of time and money, making someone else's bus pretty and super awesome.
>
> The motorcycle museum below us (basement) may be moving, and the building could someday be up for sale, so one option popping around has been securing first right of refusal on the building, and being able to expand labs and such downward when the museum leaves.
>
> One thing with buying, even if coworking doesn't work out, you have a building to rent out, or do something with, for better or worse.
>
> John Wilker
> Founder, 360|Conferences
> (720) 381-2370
> johnwilker.com (http://johnwilker.com/) | 360|MacDev (http://360macdev.com/) | 360|Flex (http://360flex.com/) | 360|iDev (http://360idev.com/)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thursday, April 12, 2012 at 9:04 AM, Alex Hillman wrote:
> > I'm actually curious about this too, specifically to hear from coworking spaces that bought early on or those who have graduated to buying.
>
> > We're entering into our 3rd major growth phase and the purchasing conversation was on the table - it's not left the table, but we've chosen renting (with a purchase option written into the lease) in favor of the timing of our needs.
>
> > Our reasons for buying also include the desire to be building equity as the business grows, but also to continue to anchor ourselves in the neighborhood that we've developed a relationship with over the last 4+ years. We've helped attract lots of new businesses to the area (which is mutually beneficial) and think that impact could increase with a statement of "permanence" that comes with purchasing.
>
> > That said, I got one particular piece of advice that's been resonating with me: don't buy a seat on the bus.
>
> > A lot of coworking spaces are a floor or a section of a building with other tenants in it. Our current building is like this as well, but is already condo-ized for potential purchase of a floor or floors. In conversations about buying, I've come to the conclusion that we should be buying the building, not a condo in it.
>
> > I'm not sure what the situations you're looking for include, but that caution has stuck with me as a good one to consider.
>
> > Having never bought property before, though I don't have any specific experience to share how it might impact a coworking space or what implications to consider - so I'd love to hear more experiences from that realm.
>
> > -Alex
>
> > --
> > /ah
> > indyhall.org (http://indyhall.org)
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thursday, April 12, 2012 at 9:04 AM, Alex Hillman wrote:
> > I'm actually curious about this too, specifically to hear from coworking spaces that bought early on or those who have graduated to buying.
>
> > We're entering into our 3rd major growth phase and the purchasing conversation was on the table - it's not left the table, but we've chosen renting (with a purchase option written into the lease) in favor of the timing of our needs.
>
> > Our reasons for buying also include the desire to be building equity as the business grows, but also to continue to anchor ourselves in the neighborhood that we've developed a relationship with over the last 4+ years. We've helped attract lots of new businesses to the area (which is mutually beneficial) and think that impact could increase with a statement of "permanence" that comes with purchasing.
>
> > That said, I got one particular piece of advice that's been resonating with me: don't buy a seat on the bus.
>
> > A lot of coworking spaces are a floor or a section of a building with other tenants in it. Our current building is like this as well, but is already condo-ized for potential purchase of a floor or floors. In conversations about buying, I've come to the conclusion that we should be buying the building, not a condo in it.
>
> > I'm not sure what the situations you're looking for include, but that caution has stuck with me as a good one to consider.
>
> > Having never bought property before, though I don't have any specific experience to share how it might impact a coworking space or what implications to consider - so I'd love to hear more experiences from that realm.
>
> > -Alex
>
> > --
> > /ah
> > coworking in philadelphia
>
> > On Thursday, April 12, 2012 at 10:32 AM, Tricia Chirumbole wrote:
>
> > > Hello all!!
>
> > > I am planning on starting a coworking space in Pittsburgh, PA and have
> > > started with a meetup group and events and jellies - I agree with
> > > other posts about the value of building a broader coworking community
> > > that extends beyond finite physical spaces.
>
> > > That being said, we do plan to ultimately open up a space. One of my
> > > biggest questions is whether to buy or lease. It seems the predominant
> > > model is leasing, which used to be my preference. However, I do have a
> > > bias in general toward building equity vs. making money for landlords,
> > > AND the market in Pittsburgh seems to be more amenable to buyers than
> > > to renters at this time - I could be off on this as my research is far
> > > from comprehensive, but this is the feel that I get.
>
> > > I have an interest in property in general and my partner has both
> > > design and building skills - while we would not do it all on our own,
> > > we do feel that we could make good use of a property irrespective of
> > > the long-term prospects of its use as our coworking home.
>
> > > Any and all thoughts welcome and appreciated! I love this group - it
> > > is so informative and valuable! Thanks in advance :)
>
> > > --
> > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Coworking" group.
> > > To post to this group, send email to cowo...@googlegroups.com (mailto:cowo...@googlegroups.com).
>
> > On Thursday, April 12, 2012 at 10:32 AM, Tricia Chirumbole wrote:
>
> > > Hello all!!
>
> > > I am planning on starting a coworking space in Pittsburgh, PA and have
> > > started with a meetup group and events and jellies - I agree with
> > > other posts about the value of building a broader coworking community
> > > that extends beyond finite physical spaces.
>
> > > That being said, we do plan to ultimately open up a space. One of my
> > > biggest questions is whether to buy or lease. It seems the predominant
> > > model is leasing, which used to be my preference. However, I do have a
> > > bias in general toward building equity vs. making money for landlords,
> > > AND the market in Pittsburgh seems to be more amenable to buyers than
> > > to renters at this time - I could be off on this as my research is far
> > > from comprehensive, but this is the feel that I get.
>
> > > I have an interest in property in general and my partner has both
> > > design and building skills - while we would not do it all on our own,
> > > we do feel that we could make good use of a property irrespective of
> > > the long-term prospects of its use as our coworking home.
>
> > > Any and all thoughts welcome and appreciated! I love this group - it
> > > is so informative and valuable! Thanks in advance :)
>
> > > --
> > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Coworking" group.
> > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to coworking+...@googlegroups.com (mailto:coworking+...@googlegroups.com).
> > > For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/coworking?hl=en.
>
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Coworking" group.
> > To post to this group, send email to cowo...@googlegroups.com (mailto:cowo...@googlegroups.com).
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Coworking" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to coworking+...@googlegroups.com (mailto:coworking+...@googlegroups.com).
Jeannine
Apr 13, 2012, 5:07:18 AM4/13/12
to Coworking
Oh, yeah, I forgot: one very great advantage of owning is that you
can do whatever you want with the space (assuming it's legal I
mean) :-) I don't have any restrictions on opening times or access or
permitted uses or renovation or any of that; I am considering putting
solar panels on the roof for instance and I have a garden on the roof
as well as the one in back. Didn't have to check with the owner. :-)
Jeannine
On Apr 13, 11:03 am, Jeannine <flexkantoorkame...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I am a little bass-ackwards in this -- okay, not just in this. I
> started Kamer52 in a space I already owned. I live in a 400 year old
> house; the former stable has been used through the years as a lot fo
> things, including a car painting shop, a bicycle shop, and so forth.
> My in-laws converted it to two office spaces, a larger one which they
> used themselves. and a smaller one which they rented out.
>
> One of the spaces came free and I decided to introduce a cooperative
> model of rural cowrking in it. Here's the first Kamer52, the street
> address is 52a: (You didn't think you would get away without looking
> at pics, did you)?https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/118169975709205235263/albums/55716...
can do whatever you want with the space (assuming it's legal I
mean) :-) I don't have any restrictions on opening times or access or
permitted uses or renovation or any of that; I am considering putting
solar panels on the roof for instance and I have a garden on the roof
as well as the one in back. Didn't have to check with the owner. :-)
Jeannine
On Apr 13, 11:03 am, Jeannine <flexkantoorkame...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I am a little bass-ackwards in this -- okay, not just in this. I
> started Kamer52 in a space I already owned. I live in a 400 year old
> house; the former stable has been used through the years as a lot fo
> things, including a car painting shop, a bicycle shop, and so forth.
> My in-laws converted it to two office spaces, a larger one which they
> used themselves. and a smaller one which they rented out.
>
> One of the spaces came free and I decided to introduce a cooperative
> model of rural cowrking in it. Here's the first Kamer52, the street
> address is 52a: (You didn't think you would get away without looking
>
> After about a year, the size of the space was becoming an issue --
> there were only two rooms and the kitchen, and if somebody had a
> meeting in the large front space, nobody could use the smaller space
> in the back. So we moved in January to the new Kamer52, in 52b, the
> larger space which had just come free:https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/118169975709205235263/albums/56963...
> After about a year, the size of the space was becoming an issue --
> there were only two rooms and the kitchen, and if somebody had a
> meeting in the large front space, nobody could use the smaller space
> in the back. So we moved in January to the new Kamer52, in 52b, the
Will Bennis, Locus Workspace
Apr 13, 2012, 7:22:24 AM4/13/12
to Coworking
This post doesn't speak to Janene and others who went from already
owning to running a coworking space (great post and story, Janene,
thank you for sharing it!). And it doesn't necessarily speak to Alex
(or John and others) who already have a pretty good sense they are
doing something right and who are taking a gradual approach owning
(another great post that helped me a lot in thinking about these
issues for myself). Or to the Google or NASA sponsored spaces with the
resources to invest in a few black swans even if they all turn out to
be white. It's mainly directed at Tricia and many of us with
reasonable risk tolerance at relatively early stages of running
coworking spaces.
I personally think it's a bad idea to buy, at least at the early
stages of running a coworking space.
I love the "don't buy a seat on the bus" metaphor. What resonated with
me about it was not so much the idea that you should buy the whole bus
(i.e., buy the whole building, as Indy Hall may be contemplating, so
your fate is not tied to something so outside your control as on other
passengers--or tenants). What resonated to me was the idea that
business is itself a fleeting thing that you might just want to get
off of when it comes to the next stop. This is particularly true of a
new and rapidly changing industry like coworking. You buy a ticket for
the bus, then getting off isn't so difficult.
While so much of the coworking press sings coworking's virtues (how it
transforms the lives of independent workers and how rapidly it is
growing), we really have close to zero reliable information about (a)
the relative pros and cons for work experience or (b) how much of the
rapid growth reflects industry success as compared to industry failure
(since in both cases we have overwhelmingly better access to the
positive stories than to the negative ones).
The large majority of spaces I have known are small and struggling for
profitability or have already gone out of business. Relatively few of
them, including spaces and space owners who I think are amazing, have
done as well as they expected to or as the people in their circle of
advisers thought they would given perceived conservative estimates.
The spaces that have done all right, my space included, have--IMO--
been as much a product of good luck as anything else. And whatever the
recipes for success have been will not be the same in the next few
years given the rapidly changing nature of both the industry and
worker/employer needs and solutions.
To me that's the primary argument for leasing (at least until you know
from experience you've got the formula right and you have the social
and physical capital to justify the cost/risk).
Will
> > >(720) 381-2370begin_of_the_skype_highlighting (720) 381-2370
owning to running a coworking space (great post and story, Janene,
thank you for sharing it!). And it doesn't necessarily speak to Alex
(or John and others) who already have a pretty good sense they are
doing something right and who are taking a gradual approach owning
(another great post that helped me a lot in thinking about these
issues for myself). Or to the Google or NASA sponsored spaces with the
resources to invest in a few black swans even if they all turn out to
be white. It's mainly directed at Tricia and many of us with
reasonable risk tolerance at relatively early stages of running
coworking spaces.
I personally think it's a bad idea to buy, at least at the early
stages of running a coworking space.
I love the "don't buy a seat on the bus" metaphor. What resonated with
me about it was not so much the idea that you should buy the whole bus
(i.e., buy the whole building, as Indy Hall may be contemplating, so
your fate is not tied to something so outside your control as on other
passengers--or tenants). What resonated to me was the idea that
business is itself a fleeting thing that you might just want to get
off of when it comes to the next stop. This is particularly true of a
new and rapidly changing industry like coworking. You buy a ticket for
the bus, then getting off isn't so difficult.
While so much of the coworking press sings coworking's virtues (how it
transforms the lives of independent workers and how rapidly it is
growing), we really have close to zero reliable information about (a)
the relative pros and cons for work experience or (b) how much of the
rapid growth reflects industry success as compared to industry failure
(since in both cases we have overwhelmingly better access to the
positive stories than to the negative ones).
The large majority of spaces I have known are small and struggling for
profitability or have already gone out of business. Relatively few of
them, including spaces and space owners who I think are amazing, have
done as well as they expected to or as the people in their circle of
advisers thought they would given perceived conservative estimates.
The spaces that have done all right, my space included, have--IMO--
been as much a product of good luck as anything else. And whatever the
recipes for success have been will not be the same in the next few
years given the rapidly changing nature of both the industry and
worker/employer needs and solutions.
To me that's the primary argument for leasing (at least until you know
from experience you've got the formula right and you have the social
and physical capital to justify the cost/risk).
Will
Jeannine
Apr 13, 2012, 8:46:00 AM4/13/12
to Coworking
Actually, Will I couldn't agree more. The stakes are high with my own
model, and of course I made it up so I had and have no idea what to
expect.
I will say that my own model is all tied up with location. Unhappily
my website is in Dutch so let me try to do this in short: I think
that places have an identity. Sometimes buildings also have one; but
places always do. The place affects the people who live there and the
people in turn affect the place.
My space in Oosterhout is inextricably tied into the identity of
Oosterhout. The choices I have made have to do with this place and
how people approach life, work, and each other. It is all about
hospitality and homeiness.
If I opened a space in Rotterdam, just twenty minutes up the road, it
would not be about that. It would be about the bling bling. It would
be about gettting things done. It would be about a lot of things but
not at all about hospitality or homeiness, that's not how it works in
Rotterdam. If I went to Den Bosch, twenty minutes the other way, it
would be about fun. It would be in a warehouse with lot sof color and
I dunno a flash mob or a street theater event at random moments. In
Den Bosch, if it isn't fun, they don't wanna know.
I draw my model from the place. Location is key, and that means being
a part of it. I think that almost nobody else thinks of it that way;
and I think if that is not part of the DNA then buying might not be
the best idea.
Later,
Jeannine
On Apr 13, 1:22 pm, "Will Bennis, Locus Workspace"
> ...
>
> read more »
model, and of course I made it up so I had and have no idea what to
expect.
I will say that my own model is all tied up with location. Unhappily
my website is in Dutch so let me try to do this in short: I think
that places have an identity. Sometimes buildings also have one; but
places always do. The place affects the people who live there and the
people in turn affect the place.
My space in Oosterhout is inextricably tied into the identity of
Oosterhout. The choices I have made have to do with this place and
how people approach life, work, and each other. It is all about
hospitality and homeiness.
If I opened a space in Rotterdam, just twenty minutes up the road, it
would not be about that. It would be about the bling bling. It would
be about gettting things done. It would be about a lot of things but
not at all about hospitality or homeiness, that's not how it works in
Rotterdam. If I went to Den Bosch, twenty minutes the other way, it
would be about fun. It would be in a warehouse with lot sof color and
I dunno a flash mob or a street theater event at random moments. In
Den Bosch, if it isn't fun, they don't wanna know.
I draw my model from the place. Location is key, and that means being
a part of it. I think that almost nobody else thinks of it that way;
and I think if that is not part of the DNA then buying might not be
the best idea.
Later,
Jeannine
On Apr 13, 1:22 pm, "Will Bennis, Locus Workspace"
>
> read more »
Mojo
Apr 13, 2012, 9:10:36 AM4/13/12
to Coworking
Mojo Coworking in Asheville is also at the precipice of deciding to
purchase or lease. We have been open for one year in a 1620 square
foot space in the very heart of downtown Asheville. We maxed out after
about 7 months. It's a great spot, but we're paying "retail" lease
pricing when I don't think we really need to. Especially now that
we've attracted a great community of coworkers. We have had our
sights on 3 different spaces - 2 with the intent of purchasing and one
as a lease. We have decided that it simply doesn't make sense to
lease. We ultimately decided that the investment in real estate was
best for the coworking community because we could feel great about
customizing the interior layout to be exactly what we want and not
worry about putting money into "someone else's bus." The new space
is 4,500 square feet and is one of the street level commercial/office
units of a recently built "live/work/play" condo building. It's a
complete raw shell with tons of creative decorating opportunities.
The price is also right as it is the last unit available in the
building and has been sitting empty since 2007.
The biggest fear of purchasing - for me - was what happens when we
outgrow this space. The answer is ... we now own an awesome building
and can either rent the office space to another company or sell it.
(Perhaps easier said than done, but that's the plan).
We end our 30 day due diligence window today (Friday the 13th!) and
must fish or cut bait. It's a little scary, but very exciting.
On Apr 12, 11:12 am, John Wilker <john.wil...@gmail.com> wrote:
> We are currently renting our space. But buying it or another has been on our minds since opening. Mainly so we're less limited in what we can do with and to the building, as well as improvements.
>
> To Alex's point about buying a seat on the bus, you also typically don't want to spend a ton of time and money, making someone else's bus pretty and super awesome.
>
> The motorcycle museum below us (basement) may be moving, and the building could someday be up for sale, so one option popping around has been securing first right of refusal on the building, and being able to expand labs and such downward when the museum leaves.
>
> One thing with buying, even if coworking doesn't work out, you have a building to rent out, or do something with, for better or worse.
>
> John Wilker
> Founder, 360|Conferences
> (720) 381-2370
> > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to coworking+...@googlegroups.com (mailto:coworking+...@googlegroups.com).
> > > For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/coworking?hl=en.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to coworking+...@googlegroups.com (mailto:coworking+...@googlegroups.com).
purchase or lease. We have been open for one year in a 1620 square
foot space in the very heart of downtown Asheville. We maxed out after
about 7 months. It's a great spot, but we're paying "retail" lease
pricing when I don't think we really need to. Especially now that
we've attracted a great community of coworkers. We have had our
sights on 3 different spaces - 2 with the intent of purchasing and one
as a lease. We have decided that it simply doesn't make sense to
lease. We ultimately decided that the investment in real estate was
best for the coworking community because we could feel great about
customizing the interior layout to be exactly what we want and not
worry about putting money into "someone else's bus." The new space
is 4,500 square feet and is one of the street level commercial/office
units of a recently built "live/work/play" condo building. It's a
complete raw shell with tons of creative decorating opportunities.
The price is also right as it is the last unit available in the
building and has been sitting empty since 2007.
The biggest fear of purchasing - for me - was what happens when we
outgrow this space. The answer is ... we now own an awesome building
and can either rent the office space to another company or sell it.
(Perhaps easier said than done, but that's the plan).
We end our 30 day due diligence window today (Friday the 13th!) and
must fish or cut bait. It's a little scary, but very exciting.
On Apr 12, 11:12 am, John Wilker <john.wil...@gmail.com> wrote:
> We are currently renting our space. But buying it or another has been on our minds since opening. Mainly so we're less limited in what we can do with and to the building, as well as improvements.
>
> To Alex's point about buying a seat on the bus, you also typically don't want to spend a ton of time and money, making someone else's bus pretty and super awesome.
>
> The motorcycle museum below us (basement) may be moving, and the building could someday be up for sale, so one option popping around has been securing first right of refusal on the building, and being able to expand labs and such downward when the museum leaves.
>
> One thing with buying, even if coworking doesn't work out, you have a building to rent out, or do something with, for better or worse.
>
> John Wilker
> Founder, 360|Conferences
> (720) 381-2370
> twitter: jwilker (http://twitter.com/jwilker)
> johnwilker.com (http://johnwilker.com/) | 360|MacDev (http://360macdev.com/) | 360|Flex (http://360flex.com/) | 360|iDev (http://360idev.com/)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> johnwilker.com (http://johnwilker.com/) | 360|MacDev (http://360macdev.com/) | 360|Flex (http://360flex.com/) | 360|iDev (http://360idev.com/)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thursday, April 12, 2012 at 9:04 AM, Alex Hillman wrote:
> > I'm actually curious about this too, specifically to hear from coworking spaces that bought early on or those who have graduated to buying.
>
> > We're entering into our 3rd major growth phase and the purchasing conversation was on the table - it's not left the table, but we've chosen renting (with a purchase option written into the lease) in favor of the timing of our needs.
>
> > Our reasons for buying also include the desire to be building equity as the business grows, but also to continue to anchor ourselves in the neighborhood that we've developed a relationship with over the last 4+ years. We've helped attract lots of new businesses to the area (which is mutually beneficial) and think that impact could increase with a statement of "permanence" that comes with purchasing.
>
> > That said, I got one particular piece of advice that's been resonating with me: don't buy a seat on the bus.
>
> > A lot of coworking spaces are a floor or a section of a building with other tenants in it. Our current building is like this as well, but is already condo-ized for potential purchase of a floor or floors. In conversations about buying, I've come to the conclusion that we should be buying the building, not a condo in it.
>
> > I'm not sure what the situations you're looking for include, but that caution has stuck with me as a good one to consider.
>
> > Having never bought property before, though I don't have any specific experience to share how it might impact a coworking space or what implications to consider - so I'd love to hear more experiences from that realm.
>
> > -Alex
>
> > --
> > /ah
> > indyhall.org (http://indyhall.org)
> > I'm actually curious about this too, specifically to hear from coworking spaces that bought early on or those who have graduated to buying.
>
> > We're entering into our 3rd major growth phase and the purchasing conversation was on the table - it's not left the table, but we've chosen renting (with a purchase option written into the lease) in favor of the timing of our needs.
>
> > Our reasons for buying also include the desire to be building equity as the business grows, but also to continue to anchor ourselves in the neighborhood that we've developed a relationship with over the last 4+ years. We've helped attract lots of new businesses to the area (which is mutually beneficial) and think that impact could increase with a statement of "permanence" that comes with purchasing.
>
> > That said, I got one particular piece of advice that's been resonating with me: don't buy a seat on the bus.
>
> > A lot of coworking spaces are a floor or a section of a building with other tenants in it. Our current building is like this as well, but is already condo-ized for potential purchase of a floor or floors. In conversations about buying, I've come to the conclusion that we should be buying the building, not a condo in it.
>
> > I'm not sure what the situations you're looking for include, but that caution has stuck with me as a good one to consider.
>
> > Having never bought property before, though I don't have any specific experience to share how it might impact a coworking space or what implications to consider - so I'd love to hear more experiences from that realm.
>
> > -Alex
>
> > --
> > /ah
> > coworking in philadelphia
>
> > On Thursday, April 12, 2012 at 10:32 AM, Tricia Chirumbole wrote:
>
> > > Hello all!!
>
> > > I am planning on starting a coworking space in Pittsburgh, PA and have
> > > started with a meetup group and events and jellies - I agree with
> > > other posts about the value of building a broader coworking community
> > > that extends beyond finite physical spaces.
>
> > > That being said, we do plan to ultimately open up a space. One of my
> > > biggest questions is whether to buy or lease. It seems the predominant
> > > model is leasing, which used to be my preference. However, I do have a
> > > bias in general toward building equity vs. making money for landlords,
> > > AND the market in Pittsburgh seems to be more amenable to buyers than
> > > to renters at this time - I could be off on this as my research is far
> > > from comprehensive, but this is the feel that I get.
>
> > > I have an interest in property in general and my partner has both
> > > design and building skills - while we would not do it all on our own,
> > > we do feel that we could make good use of a property irrespective of
> > > the long-term prospects of its use as our coworking home.
>
> > > Any and all thoughts welcome and appreciated! I love this group - it
> > > is so informative and valuable! Thanks in advance :)
>
> > > --
> > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Coworking" group.
> > > To post to this group, send email to cowo...@googlegroups.com (mailto:cowo...@googlegroups.com).
>
> > On Thursday, April 12, 2012 at 10:32 AM, Tricia Chirumbole wrote:
>
> > > Hello all!!
>
> > > I am planning on starting a coworking space in Pittsburgh, PA and have
> > > started with a meetup group and events and jellies - I agree with
> > > other posts about the value of building a broader coworking community
> > > that extends beyond finite physical spaces.
>
> > > That being said, we do plan to ultimately open up a space. One of my
> > > biggest questions is whether to buy or lease. It seems the predominant
> > > model is leasing, which used to be my preference. However, I do have a
> > > bias in general toward building equity vs. making money for landlords,
> > > AND the market in Pittsburgh seems to be more amenable to buyers than
> > > to renters at this time - I could be off on this as my research is far
> > > from comprehensive, but this is the feel that I get.
>
> > > I have an interest in property in general and my partner has both
> > > design and building skills - while we would not do it all on our own,
> > > we do feel that we could make good use of a property irrespective of
> > > the long-term prospects of its use as our coworking home.
>
> > > Any and all thoughts welcome and appreciated! I love this group - it
> > > is so informative and valuable! Thanks in advance :)
>
> > > --
> > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Coworking" group.
> > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to coworking+...@googlegroups.com (mailto:coworking+...@googlegroups.com).
> > > For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/coworking?hl=en.
>
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Coworking" group.
> > To post to this group, send email to cowo...@googlegroups.com (mailto:cowo...@googlegroups.com).
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Coworking" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to coworking+...@googlegroups.com (mailto:coworking+...@googlegroups.com).
Tricia Chirumbole
Apr 13, 2012, 9:14:38 AM4/13/12
to cowo...@googlegroups.com
Thanks for all of the great feedback so far everyone!
I too really like the bus analogy - the points about not buying a seat on the bus, as well as the point about the ease of getting off when you just have a ticket both resonate with me!
This discussion brings up two related questions:
- Will it be much more difficult to get a commercial mortgage for a coworking group that is not yet established vs. for one that has history in a leased space? I was planning on getting advance payment that would cover some percentage of initial months, as well as a percentage of members with some longer-term contracts. Additionally, the idea of using crowdfunding is appealing and may also signal community buy-in to bankers. However, nothing speaks like a year+ of operating success.
- Planning a "pilot" with a lease with the intent to buy down the line will incur some disruption and perhaps additional costs when you make the move. It seems that most successful spots have weathered this similar shift well when moving to larger spaces. However, it is something to consider when you are balancing risk with longer term planning. A similar risk will be incurred if I aim for a "bigger" place at the outset, based on the trends that have shown successful spaces fairly quickly needing to upgrade in space. That wasn't really a question....so, question is, any really important lessons learned from these space upgrades?
One of the best scenarios seems to be a lease with an option to buy............
--
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To post to this group, send email to cowo...@googlegroups.com.
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Eli Malinsky
Apr 13, 2012, 9:37:14 AM4/13/12
to Coworking
We are an example of an organization that started with a rental model
and then "graduated" to an ownership model. We rent 24,000 sq ft and
own 36,000 sq ft (remember, our model is a bit different than a
traditional coworking space - we include private offices).
Interestingly enough, our third space will be another rental - 10,000
sq ft. I love renting - lots of freedom. But, we felt vulnerable (what
if our great landlord sold the building?) and the issue of equity was
a concern ($500k per yer to rent?).
To raise funds, we issued a "Community Bond" - we took investments
from people and organizations willing to support our work - and they
will be paid back with interest. The story of our Community Bond can
be found here: http://socialinnovation.ca/communitybonds. BUT - this
model is specific both to our nonprofit classification and our
jurisdiction (Ontario, Canada). Still, there may be some interesting
bits here.
It's hard to make a hard and fast rule given the dynamism of this
field and the variety of spaces, but I'm certainly happy we started
with a rental space. It gave us a change to build our brand, hone our
systems and discover what we wanted to be, before assuming ownership.
Also - it's worth adding we would have never gotten the mortgage rate
- or investment dollars - if we couldn;t prove a sound business model.
Eli Malinsky
Centre for Social Innovation
Toronto, Canada
and then "graduated" to an ownership model. We rent 24,000 sq ft and
own 36,000 sq ft (remember, our model is a bit different than a
traditional coworking space - we include private offices).
Interestingly enough, our third space will be another rental - 10,000
sq ft. I love renting - lots of freedom. But, we felt vulnerable (what
if our great landlord sold the building?) and the issue of equity was
a concern ($500k per yer to rent?).
To raise funds, we issued a "Community Bond" - we took investments
from people and organizations willing to support our work - and they
will be paid back with interest. The story of our Community Bond can
be found here: http://socialinnovation.ca/communitybonds. BUT - this
model is specific both to our nonprofit classification and our
jurisdiction (Ontario, Canada). Still, there may be some interesting
bits here.
It's hard to make a hard and fast rule given the dynamism of this
field and the variety of spaces, but I'm certainly happy we started
with a rental space. It gave us a change to build our brand, hone our
systems and discover what we wanted to be, before assuming ownership.
Also - it's worth adding we would have never gotten the mortgage rate
- or investment dollars - if we couldn;t prove a sound business model.
Eli Malinsky
Centre for Social Innovation
Toronto, Canada
Alex Hillman
Apr 13, 2012, 9:39:25 AM4/13/12
to cowo...@googlegroups.com
Sidebar: this thread has been so great, truly the google group at its best. Thanks everybody who contributed so far.
Anne Kirby
Apr 19, 2012, 9:39:02 AM4/19/12
to cowo...@googlegroups.com
We currently lease but would love to buy in the future. Working on building a strong community first and seeing where that takes us. I wouldn't have felt comfortable buying right off the bat.
Also, believe it or not buildings in Lancaster,PA are really expensive and all the good spaces are being bought up by wealthy developers.
Also, believe it or not buildings in Lancaster,PA are really expensive and all the good spaces are being bought up by wealthy developers.
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