The best wireless routers for a 3500 sq. ft. space

[Craig Baute - Creative Density Coworking]

Creative Density is about 3500 sq. ft. in an old manson. We have two independent internet connections from Comcast and Centurylink each piping in 30+mbps each. However, people, mostly windows machines but many of them new within the last year, are having connection issues. They get on and it's working but it is fickle. Both of the connections. We have a an Asus RT-AC68U and an 2012 Apple Airport Extreme. They both should handle a lot more traffic that is passing through.

What would you recommend? Settings? Routers? Other solutions..

I know this topic has been discussed before but I wanted to start a new thread since these situations change throughout time.

[Alex Hillman]

A) Separate your wireless access points from your router. You want a single router that provides network + internet to the entire network, and the wireless access points to be “dumb”, in that the wireless access points only provide a wireless connection to the network.

B) Its time for you to leave consumer access points behind. We kept throwing Airport Extremes at the problem and still had issues, so we tested…well, basically everything we could afford. I would recommend Ruckus 7962 Access Points (probably 2 of them) to cover the space. They’re pricey, especially when you buy them through a dealer, so I recommend scouting eBay. I’ve had no problem finding them brand new sealed in box for $600-800 each, which is around half what they retail for.

C) Router choice is more about how much control you want. We use a “Firebox” router running PFSense, but to be honest it can be complicated if you don’t have experience configuring that sort of thing. At your scale, once you decouple access points from your router, you could get away with something on the consumer end (like a Linksys DDWRT) and just turn off the wifi. It might be tempting to leave the wifi on “for another access point”, but don’t. :)

-Alex

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[Robert Petrusz]

Craig,

Thanks for posting this.... we are about the same size and were just about to try out the Asus RT-AC68U as a compliment to our Airport Extreme(s). 

I have also heard good things about Aerohive, but am not set on anything right now. We might be adding fiber soon, so its a good time for us to think about a more robust network setup. 

Alex: Thanks for the tip on PFSense. 

Thanks guys! 

Robert 

Bull City Coworking

[Craig Baute - Creative Density Coworking]

I am ready to make the dive off the deep end and go high grade with the routers that Alex is talking about. I don't need to fine tune control but I want it to be reliable for 100 devices. We often will have 30 people using the space at once and with tablets and cell phones that number spikes above 50. It's a one time fee that is probably worth the investment.

[Alex Hillman]

The ruckus APs are worth every penny. 

-- /ah indyhall.org

On Fri, Nov 21, 2014 at 4:05 PM, Craig Baute - Creative Density Coworking <bau...@gmail.com> wrote:

I am ready to make the dive off the deep end and go high grade with the routers that Alex is talking about. I don't need to fine tune control but I want it to be reliable for 100 devices. We often will have 30 people using the space at once and with tablets and cell phones that number spikes above 50. It's a one time fee that is probably worth the investment.

--

[jonathan...@gmail.com]

Ruckus APs are worth every penny but there is a great alternative that's a little cheaper and much easier to setup.

You still need a separate router as Alex described but the thing that makes the biggest difference to WiFi is more access points. They just need to be intelligent enough to regulate their signal strength and work together rather than against each other.

We use 5 Unifi UAP Pro's for a similar size space to yours but depending on the layout 3 would probably be plenty. You can get a three pack of them for less than $1000. They work best with a computer permanently set up as a controller either on your local network or remotely but they're not dependent on it. The software is significantly easier to use than most domestic router software I've used.

I was able to set them up within 15 minutes of unboxing them and they completely transformed the WiFi. It went from a running joke to one issue in six months. That one issue required nothing more than turning the APs off and on again.

Your Internet connection and/or router will become the bottleneck with these APs. We'd already switched to a leased line and a high spec router by the time we got them so we knew it was the APs causing problems. Now we don't have to really think about the Internet connection, everything else gets more time. We see around 100 devices per day and I'm confident that we could go well above 200 with this set up.

I'm feeling pretty lucky that they work as well as they do given the price difference. Has anyone had a contrasting experience with Unifi kit?

Jon

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On Fri, Nov 21, 2014 at 9:05 PM, Craig Baute - Creative Density Coworking <bau...@gmail.com> wrote:

I am ready to make the dive off the deep end and go high grade with the routers that Alex is talking about. I don't need to fine tune control but I want it to be reliable for 100 devices. We often will have 30 people using the space at once and with tablets and cell phones that number spikes above 50. It's a one time fee that is probably worth the investment.

--

[Jay Smith]

I run a few different networks for coworking spaces, the Unifi system, if you don't know much about networks is a GREAT option for what your trying to do. They have an easy setup, and can all be done from one computer, once the devices are deployed. It sounds like you would need at least 2 WAP spread out across your space. I'm in a 5,000 sq. ft. building between 2 floors, and I run 3 different access points. Both run dual band (2.4GHz + 5GHz) wireless signals. 2 of the devices are are at each end of the one floor, and then I have the 3rd one covering my event space on the floor above us. I have on average 40 people working out of this space, and each one of them has a minimum of 2 devices. (Laptop and iPhone/Android phone. Some even have tablets as well.)

I have used the Unifi system before, and for smaller networks they are great. But when you start putting 30+ devices on one access point, they tend to bog down and kick users offline. After testing and testing and restarting, we ended up going with the Cisco Aironet 1600 autonomous series access points. These things are SOLID. You need to have a little knowledge of how to set them up, but one they are going, you never have to touch them again. I have a few that have been going for almost 8 months straight! They are all 10/100/1000mbps, so they are 1Gb ethernet connections back to the switch.
Plus the Cisco guys are in the $400 or less range.

This brings up another point. If your network is on the older side, your more then likely running 10/100mbp speeds from your network devices. (Firewall, modem, switch). All of the new gear is Gigabit speed (1000mbps) or better (fiber). Having a nice fast internet connection, and access points with the ability to use gigabit speeds, is useless if your firewall/switch's are only rated at 100mbs vs 1000mbs. There is a bottleneck created when that happens, and that slows down the network. Think of 10/100mb speeds as a 2 lane freeway, 1000mbps would then be a 20 lane freeway. This also coincides with Ethernet cables. Cat5e vs Cat6e. But that's a whole different ball of wax....

The building materials of the old mansion that your in, dampen WiFi signals extremely well. Think of putting a super heavy moving blanket on the horn of a trumpet, the sound still kinda comes out, but it's not clear, and hard to hear. Same effect when a WiFi signal is sent through the walls of the building your in, they get dampened. So your connection rates will go down, and your transfer rates as well. This will result in dropped connections, and people getting pissed off because they cant get their work done.

Before spending a ton of money on new access points, you should map out where people are working, what walls are between the working areas, and the area where the access point(s) are going to be. You may need to run an extra Ethernet drop (or 2 or 3 depending) to a new location closer to the people that are working to connect your new access points.

The Apple Airport Extremes your using are for home networks, 5-10 devices really. They are not built for business class workflows. They simply cant handle the packet flow.

[Tom Brandt]

We've been using Unifi APs at Workantile, and have been very pleased with them.

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member, Workantile

@twbrandt

[@jot]

I've expanded on this with the full story of how we solved our WiFi problems at The Skiff here:

http://jonathanmarkwell.com/2014/11/22/best-coworking-wifi/

I've tried to make it easy to understand for non-technical people, with just enough information for technical people. I'd love to hear any thoughts you have on it.

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[Alex Hillman]

This post is awesome Jon! Mirrors a lot of my experience (and nowwww I'm tempted to see if those Unifi APs are worth selling our Ruckus units second hand...). :)

-Alex

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[Sajid Islam]

Hey Jon,

Your site seems to be down.

Sajid

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[Craig Baute - Creative Density Coworking]

I think I'm going to go with getting a new router and then switching over to Unify because of the sold reviews and set up.

I've mapped out where people work. I would love to move over paying for one internet connection and I think this will make it possible.

[Jonathan Markwell]

Thank you Sajid! Sadly I'm suffering a DNS outage along with thousands of other sites this evening. It should be back up in 30 minutes or so.

PS It was great hearing about Hubdhaka last week at Coworking Europe. Love the work you're doing there!

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[Craig Baute - Creative Density Coworking]

Can I easily add Unify AP to my Asus router?

[Jonathan Markwell]

Craig, Unifi APs should work with any router. I don't know anything about Asus in particular. At the very least you'll want to disable any WiFi currently provided onboard the Asus router.

On 2 December 2014 at 00:04, Craig Baute - Creative Density Coworking <bau...@gmail.com> wrote:

Can I easily add Unify AP to my Asus router?

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[Alex Hillman]

Doing a little more research on these Unifi APs and found another HUGE selling point: they support Power Over Ethernet (PoE).

This was one of the biggest selling points of the Ruckus APs for me, because it meant we didn’t need to ALSO run power to the ideal location; we just needed to run ethernet, and make sure that ethernet was plugged into a switch that provided Power over Ethernet (example: http://www.amazon.com/NETGEAR-ProSAFE-FS116P-16-Port-Ethernet/dp/B000ANF8FE/ref=pd_sim_e_2?ie=UTF8&refRID=1VGZPAQYX6710VX4BX2S).

Killer. 

-Alex

 

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The #1 mistake in community building is doing it by yourself.

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[Craig Baute - Creative Density Coworking]

Are we all falling in love?

[Sajid Islam]

Hey Jon:

Thanks. Hopefully you will visit us someday :)

Your blog post was informative and will purchase Unify for our space. Do you or anyone here know if we can mix & match UAP-AC + UAP-LR for our space?  

Sajid

[Robert Petrusz]

I am. :-) 

I am leaning towards PFSense + Ubiquiti now.  

Great thread! 

Robert 

[Jacob Sayles]

We have been slowly switching to UniFi hardware and it has been stable and I'm happy with he tech. I've been a fan of PFSense for a long time and have helped a few spaces get set up with nice firewalls.  I buy refurbished desktops on NewEgg for 1-200 and then grab a nice dual or quad Intel gbit NIC for 2-300. 

Jacob

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[Craig Baute - Creative Density Coworking]

Which Unify access points are people using?

[Jacob Sayles]

We found a deal on a Unifi AP (2.4ghz only) and an AP Pro.  We put these on our top floor and still have our Airport Extremes on the bottom floor.  One of our members just sold us a UAP-AC but we haven't hooked it up yet.  We figure we would put it in place of the 2.4ghz only AP.  Eventually we'll replace the Airports with either the AP Pro or the AC depending on how that guy works out for us.  I helped a space that had 2 AP Long Range access points and I'd recommend against that.  

On Tue, Dec 2, 2014 at 11:30 AM, Craig Baute - Creative Density Coworking <bau...@gmail.com> wrote:

Which Unify access points are people using?

--

[Craig Baute - Creative Density Coworking]

Do the UAP extend the Airport Extreme signal?

[Jacob Sayles]

No.  In general it's not a good idea to extend wifi.  Just plug everything in to a hard line and you should be good to go.  

On Tue, Dec 2, 2014 at 1:12 PM, Craig Baute - Creative Density Coworking <bau...@gmail.com> wrote:

Do the UAP extend the Airport Extreme signal?

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[Craig Baute - Creative Density Coworking]

Ok. I think I'm going to use Unify AP and buy a 3 pack.

[Alex Hillman]

I just wanted to bump this thread by saying that back in December I hunkered down and picked up a 3 pack of the Unifi AP Pro's from Amazon. 

It took me more time to find the drill and the move our ladder than it did to actually install them (we already had ethernet run, and a Power over Ethernet switch installed), since it was just swapping them in place of our old Ruckus APs. 

Setting up the controller software on the same Mac Mini that runs our music server wasn't hard, though if you've never done any sort of network or web service setup it might seem a little confusing. Nowhere near impossible though.

Once "adopting" the new access points to the configuration and updating the software on the access points, the controller software spent the first afternoon appearing to "tune" the network. It detected signal and channel interference, automatically choosing optimal configurations. It was actually pretty amazing to see it Just Work(tm). Within a day, the wireless was noticeably faster and more stable than it had been in a long time. 

The only issue we've run into is that the coverage isn't as good as the Ruckus APs, so we're going to end up needing a few more of the UnifiAPs for our space. I already added one more to an especially troubled area, my guess is that we'll end up with 6-8 total devices to cover 10k square feet on 2 floors without any dead zones. The good news is that a) adding a new AP is INSANELY easy thanks to the controller software and b) the devices are really affordable. 

Overall, I'm a very happy customer, and really appreciate Jon's recommendation to take these wireless APs for a spin. 

Next step is that we're considering a router upgrade, and have been looking at Unifi's options for that as well given how great the APs are. :)

Oh, and happy new year, everyone!

-Alex

[Glen Ferguson]

Thanks for the review Alex. It's nice to see a field report talking about the pros and cons. My license with Meraki is up in June and I've already started building a shopping list. Ubiquiti has been high on the list for some time. I'm also looking at their routers.

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Cowork Frederick

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www.coworkfrederick.com

@CoworkFrederick

[Coleman Hamilton]

Hey all,

more of a Meta question here.  Can anyone recommend a good IT primer?  I've just set up a unifi AP AC but would love to know more about getting the rest of the story in regards to hardware firewalls, switches and routers.  Thanks.  PS, I lucked out and Fios 500/500 is cheap in my area.  They have like 10 lines available IN my unit.  :)

[Kaizoku Gambare]

Hello, thank you for this very interesting topic.

After reading you I am convinced that Ubiquiti is a great system and I think seriously to try it.

However, I have two questions for Ubiquiti users. Does it handle captive portal ? If not how do you manage the guest wifi ?

Best regards.

[Alex Hillman]

Unifi access points allow for providing a separate guest network from your main member network (if that's a priority for you), and/or you can hook their controller software up to a Radius-compatible host for caotive portal. 

I'm not personally using either of these features, but they seem as straightforward to set up as on any other platform I've looked at. 

-Alex

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[Sajid Islam]

For our guest login, we use facebook wifi. I recently got the MR900 from Open-Mesh (also available on amazon ) and I love it. 

----------------------

Sajid Islam

Founder

(tel): +1. 703.981.2941 / +88.017.942.74175

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On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 9:59 AM, Kaizoku Gambare <emmanuel....@gmail.com> wrote:

Hello, thank you for this very interesting topic.

After reading you I am convinced that Ubiquiti is a great system and I think seriously to try it.

However, I have two questions for Ubiquiti users. Does it handle captive portal ? If not how do you manage the guest wifi ?

Best regards.

Le vendredi 21 novembre 2014 06:14:59 UTC+7, Craig Baute - Creative Density Coworking a écrit :

Creative Density is about 3500 sq. ft. in an old manson. We have two independent internet connections from Comcast and Centurylink each piping in 30+mbps each. However, people, mostly windows machines but many of them new within the last year, are having connection issues. They get on and it's working but it is fickle. Both of the connections. We have a an Asus RT-AC68U and an 2012 Apple Airport Extreme. They both should handle a lot more traffic that is passing through.

What would you recommend? Settings? Routers? Other solutions..

I know this topic has been discussed before but I wanted to start a new thread since these situations change throughout time.

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