Sorting out the complete access system, including the mechanical /
physical works, power supply, electronics, software (firmware /
back-end) and communication (notifications) ... will be high on the list.
On Tue, Aug 7, 2012 at 11:19 AM, Andy Gelme <an...@geekscape.org> wrote:Sorting out the complete access system, including the mechanical /
physical works, power supply, electronics, software (firmware /
back-end) and communication (notifications) ... will be high on the list.
What did you have in mind for notifications/comms ?
Does twitter/irc integration make sense ?
as in "Fred just entered the hackerspace"
or is that too creepy ?
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NdefMessage
'sThis ACR122U Contactless NFC Card Reader USB for AU $60 looks a more complete and reliable option.
I found this interesting RFID door access build - is it any use to the group?
http://staticfree.info/projects/rfid_front_door/
Is there a NFC Card Reader this is packaged like the ACR122U?
I have seen some readers that can be used at a small distance, if we could use the reader though the window packaging would be easier?
If building a single board is an option, LED, speaker (we thought playing actual sound from the RasPi would be fun), PN532 (don't forget the antenna) could sit on a single board (for the 'outside' bits), with a wire running to the Raspberri Pi on the other side of the door.
I 100% agree
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Thank you for your explanation, this has help my understanding of the issues to do with using NFC.
"I imagine making libnfc talk to a PN532 chip over SPI rather than UARTwould be doable by writing the relevant code - it already abstracts
between native access over USB, UART - see for yourself at
https://code.google.com/p/libnfc/source/browse/ on svn/trunk/libnfc/drivers "
I had a quick look at this reference and I did not see an easy or quick way to use the GPIO and libnfc.
Would it be best to accept the Adafruit "PN532 NFC/RFID controller breakout board - v1.3" as the one we go with, given the comments in the libnfc wiki?
I think that if the RaspPi does not have the required mains power to open an automated door latch, we have more pressing issues ;-)
IMO, I would rather go somewhere else than try and use the HackerSpace without power.
In the case of mains power failing, somebody who knows the key code for the padlock box could be sent an email to investigate, therefore eliminating the need for a battery backup of any sort.
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"Do we really need a "first prototype", "
Generally yes, it is often part of the specification process.
On Monday, 10 September 2012 08:17:43 UTC+10, Luke Weston wrote:Do we really need a "first prototype", as opposed to specifying it and doing it properly so that it's done right the first time, or as close to done right as can possibly be specified, designed and planned in advance?
There's no point in spending the time, resources and money to do it twice if you don't have to.
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I work fo a constuction company and have a bit of experiance with electronic strikes. The come in 6, 12 and 24v options and the majority are fail secure. The current drawn for the strikes ranges from 0.1A to 2.4A but most are belo 1A. I suspect the higher current units relate to their holding strength. The tech data can be downloaded from the Dorma or Assa abloy websites who are the main companies that are used on the projects I've been involved in.
Stefan
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"Do we really need a "first prototype", "Generally yes, it is often part of the specification process.Hi Geoff,
I'm a firm believer in prototyping, and I teach it as a technique, however I don't believe it's true to claim it's a general practice, and there are various contexts, including this one, where I don't think it's applicable.Why not? Well:- This is not a new, unproven project or technology.- There are various existing prototype examples available via google foo that can be referenced, if not for the whole system, then at least the core subsystems.- We're not designing for a product, or even a kit that might be produced and used by many people. To all practical purposes, this is a one off.- We have an established cultural precedent at CCHS of not doing staged protyping. Instead, we might optionally breadboard or veroboard a simple first prototype when trying out new components. But often, even if producing a PCB, we simply check and review the eagle schematics, and get boards produced.- it's the "hacker way" to hack a thing: to build a thing and then fix and improve it until it works. We've produced PCB's in quantities before, and needed to fix small oversights and mistakes. The problems are typically small, and can generally be corrected without significant drama.Paul
On Monday, 10 September 2012 08:17:43 UTC+10, Luke Weston wrote:Do we really need a "first prototype", as opposed to specifying it and doing it properly so that it's done right the first time, or as close to done right as can possibly be specified, designed and planned in advance?--
There's no point in spending the time, resources and money to do it twice if you don't have to.
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An Electronic strike can be used as a normal strike. When it is not powered, the door can still be opened normally by key or lever as that retracts the tongue of the lock from the strike.
Also, an electronic strike doesn't need to be installed by a lock smith. A competant carpenter or handy man shouldn't have any trouble installing a strike. It just takes a bit of care and attention.
Stefan
On 10/09/2012 9:53 PM, "tubular" <lac...@tubularcontrols.com> wrote:
Is there any sub-task that we could get started on while the software and micro is being sorted out?Would replacing the side door deadlatch with a latch & electronic strike (fail-secure) be worthwhile yet, or is it too early? Keep the key barrel the same, so the door could still be opened manually until the smarts are ready to deploy
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Just so... I have already donated a new electronic strike, something like this http://img.diytrade.com/cdimg/804427/7038585/0/1223110971/Electric_strike_lock.jpg -- don't hold me to it, I don't know the brand exactly, I think it was a 12V one. It's in the space somewhere.
It has a tongue sense inside and so can "know" whether the door is open or shut (respectively, whether someone clamps back the tongue sense with a finger).
Any chance to get involved in this project?
Cheers
Barbara
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There is another thing to consider with an E strike, does it work with the lock being used? If the current lock is a dead latch mountes on the surface of the door, then a surface mounted strike is required. To use the donated strike which is installed in a rebate in the door frame would require a morticed lock installed in the edge of the door which is more work. It also depends on whether the door swings in or out. I've also noticed that the door frame is loose in the brickwork. A couple of Dyna bolts will need to be installed to make it secure again.
Architects always make mistakes with door hardware as it can be more complex than most people expect. I will try to drop by the space tonight but i'll only be in briefly.
Stefan
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There is another thing to consider with an E strike, does it work with the lock being used?
If the current lock is a dead latch mountes on the surface of the door, then a surface mounted strike is required. To use the donated strike which is installed in a rebate in the door frame would require a morticed lock installed in the edge of the door which is more work.
It also depends on whether the door swings in or out.
I've also noticed that the door frame is loose in the brickwork. A couple of Dyna bolts will need to be installed to make it secure again.
On 11 September 2012 09:52, Stefan Lacombe <stefan...@gmail.com> wrote:There is another thing to consider with an E strike, does it work with the lock being used?
We will have to replace the lock anyway, as the current lock is an E-shape vertical deadbolt (aka a copy of a Lockwood 355), which I believe there isn't an electronics strike option for (we all looked, a lot).
If the current lock is a dead latch mountes on the surface of the door, then a surface mounted strike is required. To use the donated strike which is installed in a rebate in the door frame would require a morticed lock installed in the edge of the door which is more work.
You can get surface mounted bolts for outward opening doors, like the Lockwood 509: http://www.lockweb.com.au/en/site/lockweb/Products/?groupId=473&productId=753
That said, there are other requirements hat may rule out that sort of lock.
IMO the strike won't fit in a standard morticed configuration. The frame is too thin, and we'd have to cut into the brick to get it in place, which I wouldn't recommend even trying given how tough the brick has proved when we put up the shelving.
It also depends on whether the door swings in or out.
Door swings out. Yes this makes it difficult IMO.
Sorry, mounting the strike we have on a block is unlikly to work as it has to sit at least 2mm clear of of the edge of the door. Creating a pocket in the brick work isn't a huge drama provided you have the appropriate tools.
I'll be at the space at about 6 for half an hour or so to get a better idea of what we have and what we need re the hardware.
As the door has an E type lock, we'll have to change everything on this door to make any Elec strike work.
Stefan
On 11/09/2012 11:02 AM, "tubular" <lac...@tubularcontrols.com> wrote:
On Tuesday, 11 September 2012 10:34:05 UTC+10, Cefiar wrote:
>
> On 11 September 2012 09:52, Stefan Lacombe <stefan...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> There is another ...
How about we just mount Barbara's strike in its own ~35mm deep rebated wooden block, then this can be screwed to the existing frame with countersunk screws, so we don't have to get into the brickwork, and wouldn't have to make a potential mess that the landlord could object to?It would cut down the opening slightly, but its a very wide door, wider than the access path I think.The electronic strike and latch can be located below the existing deadlock, we can just remove the old catch once we cut over to our new systemDoes anyone have a latch spare to donate? Or is there budget for this? I have suitable hole saws
>>
>> It also depends on whether the door swings in or out.
>
>
> Door swings out. Yes this make...
The side door is a bit unusual, but the latch doesn't have to be at the very perimeter, it'll work fine inset
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Sorry, mounting the strike we have on a block is unlikly to work as it has to sit at least 2mm clear of of the edge of the door. Creating a pocket in the brick work isn't a huge drama provided you have the appropriate tools.
I'll be at the space at about 6 for half an hour or so to get a better idea of what we have and what we need re the hardware.
For a proof of concept I added hooks to send a character across the
serial port to an Arduino - to blink a LED if the presented card was
accepted.
Ideally the security/door access system should rely on the CCHS Membership CMS system that I believe Chris Pendlebury was recommending. Otherwise it's another system that a time-stressed committee member will have to maintain and remember to revoke a card when necessary while amending the membership record. Regards George
On 12/09/12 6:34 AM, George Patterson wrote:Can we integrate it into there somehow? Good that it has come up now before I write any code that depends on backend features.
Ideally the security/door access system should rely on the CCHS Membership CMS system that I believe Chris Pendlebury was recommending. Otherwise it's another system that a time-stressed committee member will have to maintain and remember to revoke a card when necessary while amending the membership record. Regards George
A backend will need to store other card details, possibly including a salt or other details used to determine the validity of the card.
Can we integrate it into there somehow? Good that it has come up now before I write any code that depends on backend features.
A backend will need to store other card details, possibly including a salt or other details used to determine the validity of the card.
The CMS runs physically outside the space, so the best way would be to extract data from the CMS regularly (eg: every hour?), with the CMS being the authorative system for the data. This way, if the update process fails, the cards as of that point will be authorative.
FWIW: We could also have a 'core set' of cards (eg: Committee et al) that are the only ones allowed if the update process fails for more than a set time (eg: 1-2 days) - effectively reducing access issues due to problems caused by out-of-date data.
Really, for security, we definitely want this process to be one-way, so that there is no way for the system to be 'hacked' to put data back into the CMS (ie: for it to manipulate the authorative data permanently). All the data should be synced (it won't be that big), as that way if the data gets corrupted/altered, the next update fixes it.
This of course means that we DO need a way to load this data into the CMS using a NFC interface say plugged into a PC to read the necessary details, which are then loaded into the CMS (eg: manually).I know we can create custom fields in the DB, so we should then be able to create fields that will contain the card data. Of course this means that the data needs to be maintained, but this way it'll all be in one place, and just pushed down to the system at Kent Lane.
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Please check the pertinent pages after the hackmelb.org server picks itself up, dusts self off (seems to be having problems at the moment, otherwise I'd include links).
On 12 September 2012 09:59, tubular <lac...@tubularcontrols.com> wrote:
* The RFID reader will be in window area next to the door.
* We'll have a mini working bee some Saturday arvo, when Rasp Jam aren't using the space, to install, and dynabolt reinforce the frame which is a bit loose. We'll also run some cables in a surface duct for the RFID reader (PN532), electric strike, indicator lights/lcd etc.
* For the landlord's approval:-We propose to add a single cylinder deadlatch and electric strike above the existing E style lock. The Electric strike is a "fail secure" model, so can be used just like a normal door strike in the absence of any electric control signal. The existing double cylinder E lock will be left in place, locked in the open position.
Not RFID ... NFC.
Apart from applying dynabolts to reinforce the door frame and running cabling ... is there any other proposed works, e.g changes to the door, door frame or surrounding areas ?
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Nice wadge of clear polycarbonate over a a good proportion of the window at RHS... or even replacing the glass entirely would prevent forced entry by smashing glass, reaching in and activating handle.
Easier than changing the door hinges/geometry.
Also, maybe not so good having door hinges swapped to other side given the wall on that side may cause bottleneck for rapid egress of estimated/proposed max number of people in Hackerspace.
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Some discussions I had with Geoff a week or two ago headed in the
direction of a 3d-printed sealed box (allowing for ventilation) that
would have some physical security features. We could take a lead from
the EFTPOS terminal industry - if the case gets opened, disable the
hardware.
http://hackaday.com/2011/11/23/name-these-parts-verifone-payment-module-tear-down/
Also, the intention is to present some kind of user feedback, via LEDs
or speakers.., as well as "reset" and other useful buttons.
Be mindful there may be maximum wire length distances for the signals
between the Pi and associated electronics. I don't have any hard numbers
with me. The PN532<->Pi would be 3.3V @115200bps and the rest of the
factors would depend on the cable type.
We could easily get around that with additional electronics at both ends
of the cable.
- Mathew
Jonathan Oxer wrote:
Perhaps this has already been discussed and dismissed, but just in
case anyone here isn't aware of it there's also the SNARC project at
Hackerspace Brisbane:
http://www.hsbne.org/projects/SNARC
I'm on both mailing lists and there's been a remarkably similar
discussion happening in parallel on both lists, with the difference
that HSBNE started the process significantly earlier and are more
progressed. They've gone through a couple of generations of hardware
to end up with the board shown on the page above. Perhaps it's worth
joining forces?
Lemming and co have done some *really* cool stuff on the software
side, too, such as linking it to Google Docs so the list of card
holders can be maintained simply by updating a spreadsheet.
1. To modify the rear door to add one "Single Cylinder Deadlatch" and door strike eg. http://www.locksgalore.com.au/?page=shop/flypage&product_id=73&category=locks, http://www.locksgalore.com.au/?page=shop/flypage&product_id=594&category=electroniclocking_electricstrikes2. Add door sensors (to indicator an open door) eg. http://www.dinodirect.com/Embedded-Door-Sensor-MC-36.html?cur=AUD&AFFID=97&utm_source=myshopping&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Security+Systems+and+Surveillance&utm_term=Embedded+Magnetic+Sensor+Alarm+Door+Security+System+MC+363. To run some wires though to the outside near the rear door.4. To modify the roller so it may be unlocked from the inside.
Hello Geoff,
I hope I'm not repeating myself... I thought people had decided to go with the electric door strike I donated for the rear door.
If so, the door strike can tell whether it's locked or not (i.e., whether the door strike engages, or not), and whether the tongue sense inside the door strike is pushed back, or not (could be meaning that the door is actually shut), it has a tongue sense.
That is, we'd already have the strike and sensor in one -- but not the lock (handle with keyed lock and bolt), of course.
If we need one of the sensors in your point 2 (http://www.dinodirect.com/Embedded-Door-Sensor-MC-36.html?cur=AUD&AFFID=97&utm_source=myshopping&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Security+Systems+and+Surveillance&utm_term=Embedded+Magnetic+Sensor+Alarm+Door+Security+System+MC+36), I think I might still have one lying around somewhere.
Regards
Barbara
Am 14.09.2012 03:45, schrieb Geoff:
Hi AndyI was away from the google groups for two days and missed the lasted posts.That list you have is for modification is incomplete, I posted the following but it seems to have been over looked:1. To modify the rear door to add one "Single Cylinder Deadlatch" and door strike eg. http://www.locksgalore.com.au/?page=shop/flypage&product_id=73&category=locks, http://www.locksgalore.com.au/?page=shop/flypage&product_id=594&category=electroniclocking_electricstrikes
2. Add door sensors (to indicator an open door) eg. http://www.dinodirect.com/Embedded-Door-Sensor-MC-36.html?cur=AUD&AFFID=97&utm_source=myshopping&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Security+Systems+and+Surveillance&utm_term=Embedded+Magnetic+Sensor+Alarm+Door+Security+System+MC+36
3. To run some wires though to the outside near the rear door.
4. To modify the roller so it may be unlocked from the inside.Please add items 2, 3, and 4.
RegardsGeoff
On Thursday, 13 September 2012 12:43:02 UTC+10, andyg (@geekscape) wrote:
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Hello Geoff,
I hope I'm not repeating myself... I thought people had decided to go with the electric door strike I donated for the rear door.
If so, the door strike can tell whether it's locked or not (i.e., whether the door strike engages, or not), and whether the tongue sense inside the door strike is pushed back, or not (could be meaning that the door is actually shut), it has a tongue sense.
That is, we'd already have the strike and sensor in one -- but not the lock (handle with keyed lock and bolt), of course.
If we need one of the sensors in your point 2 (http://www.dinodirect.com/Embedded-Door-Sensor-MC-36.html?cur=AUD&AFFID=97&utm_source=myshopping&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Security+Systems+and+Surveillance&utm_term=Embedded+Magnetic+Sensor+Alarm+Door+Security+System+MC+36), I think I might still have one lying around somewhere.
Regards
Barbara
Am 14.09.2012 03:45, schrieb Geoff:
1. To modify the rear door to add one "Single Cylinder Deadlatch" and door strike eg. http://www.locksgalore.com.au/?page=shop/flypage&product_id=73&category=locks, http://www.locksgalore.com.au/?page=shop/flypage&product_id=594&category=electroniclocking_electricstrikes
2. Add door sensors (to indicator an open door) eg. http://www.dinodirect.com/Embedded-Door-Sensor-MC-36.html?cur=AUD&AFFID=97&utm_source=myshopping&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Security+Systems+and+Surveillance&utm_term=Embedded+Magnetic+Sensor+Alarm+Door+Security+System+MC+36
3. To run some wires though to the outside near the rear door.
4. To modify the roller so it may be unlocked from the inside.Please add items 2, 3, and 4.RegardsGeoff
The Raspberry Pi is not a power inefficient device. It's very power efficient for what it can do.I don't see why this system needs to be optimised for extremely low power. It's not a portable battery-operated device, it's a mains-powered device.Seems like there are basically just a couple of decisions to make here in terms of hardware specification:Core hardware architecture:a) PN532 --> Raspberry Pib) PN532 --> ATmega328 --> Wiznet W5100a) Use off-the-shelf development modules/boards, eg. Adafruit PN532 board, EtherTen etc and wire them together with the extra bits required.b) Custom bespoke PCB that nicely integrates everything required?So, what other peripheral electronics is needed?12V comes in from a mains plugpack. (I assume it's 12V for a 12V door strike, but it could be higher, say 24V or something, if that's what was required for a particular door strike / solenoid.)(Keep in mind that the plugpack needs to have sufficient current capacity to run the solenoid as well as the other electronics.)That 12V rail is supplied to the solenoid, which is low-side switched with an open-drain output switched from the Raspberry Pi or AVR - i.e. a suitably rated N-channel power FET.The 12V also needs to be regulated down to 5V and 3.3V for the Raspberry Pi and PN532 or AVR and W5100.An Arduino (including EtherTen, etc.) can obviously accommodate a 12V input directly and regulate it down, and it can also supply a 5V rail and 3.3V rail (depending on the Arduino model, many of them have no 3.3V rail available, or just the FT232RL's internal 3.3V reference, which has negligible current capacity) out to the PN532.The Adafruit PN532 board has a 3.3V regulator on it... it needs to be supplied with 5V, and a Raspberry Pi needs to be supplied with regulated 5V too.And you want a little bit of peripheral hardware for status output to the user too - like a LED or two, and/or a small piezo buzzer, switched by digital GPIOs on the Raspberry Pi or AVR.So, personally, that's what I think the hardware will look like.
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The 802.3af spec has a max guaranteed power output of 12.95W at the device end. At 12V this is just over 1A max. You might get 14.5W if you are lucky.
Anything more than this is out of spec for 802.3af (either vendor specific stuff or 802.3at qualifies). Our switch is only marked for 802.3af that I am aware of.
Unless you know the switch will put out more than this, I would assume that is the max you will get.
PS: This is why I always doubt vendor specs.
PPS: The Wikipedia page for 802.3af covers all the gotchas for power limits.
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Hi Everyone,
Has anyone done research on the NFC/RFID access system? (It was on the
wish list board when I last visited).
I'm aware we have an Adafruit PN532 NFC breakout board, along with a box
of MiFare Keychain fobs, in the hackerspace, and having done previous
NFC work with libnfc, I'd love to take a look at the 'access control'
side - hopefully someone here knows more about controlling locks
electronically.
- Matt