Amazing what Windows still doesn't do well.

[Alan Baker]

Setting up a new PC for a client today (she had a panic when for some
reason her laptop went into its BIOS-based diagnostic mode while in her
case while driving home and now she doesn't trust it), and I have many
observations of the silliness that is Microsoft:

Here are a few:

1. You can no longer set up a new PC without creating a Microsoft
Account; no local account option is available anymore; not at least
running Windows 10 Home. Yes: there is apparently a workaround where you
cut off the machine from internet access before trying to create the
account, but it's still ridiculous that you're forced to use a fudge.

2. (And I should have mentioned this ages ago)...

...why is there no built-in utility for migrating your data from an old
PC????

How is it even remotely acceptable that you must buy a 3rd-party utility
to do this basic task?

3. Do you know how many times you now have to say "No" when you're
setting up a new account on your new machine? It's a lot.

[ed]

On Tuesday, June 23, 2020 at 5:47:26 PM UTC-4, Alan Baker wrote:
> Setting up a new PC for a client today (she had a panic when for some
> reason her laptop went into its BIOS-based diagnostic mode while in her
> case while driving home and now she doesn't trust it), and I have many
> observations of the silliness that is Microsoft:
>
> Here are a few:
>
> 1. You can no longer set up a new PC without creating a Microsoft
> Account; no local account option is available anymore; not at least
> running Windows 10 Home. Yes: there is apparently a workaround where you
> cut off the machine from internet access before trying to create the
> account, but it's still ridiculous that you're forced to use a fudge.
>
> 2. (And I should have mentioned this ages ago)...
>
> ...why is there no built-in utility for migrating your data from an old
> PC????

Sure there is - it downloads it from your microsoft account! :-D

...

[Alan Baker]

GREEEEAAAAAAATTTT!!!

[Arlen Holder]

On Tue, 23 Jun 2020 17:56:48 -0700 (PDT), ed wrote:

> Sure there is - it downloads it from your microsoft account! :-D

Just as with iOS and Android, I keep abreast of Windows' news... where I
tried _everything_ that people suggested to _not_ create a Windows account
when converting a neighbor's Win10S to Win10H (fully documented, with tons
of screenshots, as I normally do, since my threads are for archival &
re-use by as many others as possible, since all threads should add value).

For the record, I documented conversion of a Win10S to Win10Home a few
weeks ago, where I agree wholeheartedly that Microsoft sucks by requiring,
at least temporarily, a bogus M$ Account just to perform that conversion.

My heroic attempts to convert sans that obnoxity, were to no avail:
o *Is there freeware extent to convert Win10S to Win10H*
*WITHOUT enabling the Win10S laptop Wi-Fi?*
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.comp.freeware/MwzjUei-0Oo>

Many agreed with me on that thread (and in many others) that Microsoft
sucks in this regard.

Even worse, as most are aware, I keep abreast of Windows news (good or bad,
it's just a simple non-emotional fact), where the latest M$ Windows 10
v2004 update is generally considered by me (& others) to be almost
worthless in terms of risk:reward payback, as described here (& elsewhere):
o *The Windows 10 May 2020 Update is finally now released 5/27/2020*
<https://alt.comp.os.windows-10.narkive.com/PWUc4URA/the-windows-10-may-2020-update-is-finally-now-released-5-27-2020>

Again, most people agreed, in that the latest Windows 10 has
a) bugs
b) no added value

As shown here just today:
o *Question about delaying 2004 upgrade*
<https://alt.comp.os.windows-10.narkive.com/Mh85snag/question-about-delaying-2004-upgrade>

I agree that it's horrid whenever the OS manufacturer _requires_ a login
account, where I make sure I have none for those OSs where it's possible to
have that kind of privacy (i.e., there should never be a need or
requirement to create a OEM-based account on any modern consumer OS, IMHO).
--
It sucks that they're trying to get us to create accounts we don't want.

[Thomas E.]

On Tuesday, June 23, 2020 at 5:47:26 PM UTC-4, Alan Baker wrote:

Try and set up an iPhone without an iCloud account. Even if you could do it the phone is crippled.

[Alan Baker]

1. It's easy to do.

2. The phone is in no way crippled.

3. Way to go on the major deflection, Liarboy!

[Thomas E.]

How do you set up an Apple ID without an iCloud account?

[Alan Baker]

You can have the iCloud account and just never use it, doofus.

And still going on the deflection!

Way to commit to ignoring the fact that Microsoft now makes it
impossible (without deliberate fudges) to set up a new PC without using
a Microsoft account.

[Thomas E.]

Let me re-state my question as:

"What happens if you set up an iPhone without an Apple ID and account?"

Here is the answer from Apple's discussion board:

https://discussions.apple.com/thread/7138048

"He doesn't have to have an Apple ID, but it's highly recommended. Without an Apple ID, he won't be able to download any apps or use Facetime or iMessage. Kind of defeats the point of having an iPhone, if you ask me. He could still make and receive calls and use the browser, but he can get a basic phone to do that for far cheaper. It only takes five minutes to set up an Apple ID."

Now, how is this different from Windows wanting a Microsoft account?

Is an iPhone set up without an Apple ID a fully functional device?

[Alan Baker]

Right. So there is a purpose that has always been a part of having an
iPhone that makes an AppleID desirable.

>
> Now, how is this different from Windows wanting a Microsoft account?

Do you need a Microsoft account to get software for your PC? No.

>
> Is an iPhone set up without an Apple ID a fully functional device?
>

Keep deflecting, Liarboy!

[Thomas E.]

LOL, you deflected my question about the function of an Apple account for an iPhone.

You need a Microsoft account for the same reason as the iPhone. The only difference is that Microsoft actually ALLOWS you to load software without paying the 30% tax that Apple charges in the App Store. Imagine the Applopoly allowing that freedom? LOL!

https://www.isumsoft.com/windows-10/why-do-i-need-a-microsoft-account-for-windows-10.html

[Alan Baker]

So then you don't NEED a Microsoft account...

...but Windows 10 Home now forces you to get one.

[Wolffan]

On 23 Jun 2020, Alan Baker wrote
(in article <rctt9c$888$1...@dont-email.me>):

> Setting up a new PC for a client today (she had a panic when for some
> reason her laptop went into its BIOS-based diagnostic mode while in her
> case while driving home and now she doesn't trust it), and I have many
> observations of the silliness that is Microsoft:
>
> Here are a few:
>
> 1. You can no longer set up a new PC without creating a Microsoft
> Account; no local account option is available anymore; not at least
> running Windows 10 Home.

the last time that I set up a Win 10 Home system (January this year) there
was a ’skip this step’ button on the install MS Account dialog. You had
to be persistent, but you could get to where you could install a local
account. Has this changed? I usually set up Pro and Education versions of Win
10, and as of May those still can go to local accounts.

> Yes: there is apparently a workaround where you
> cut off the machine from internet access before trying to create the
> account, but it's still ridiculous that you're forced to use a fudge.

it’s Microsoft. packing fudge is what they do.

[Thomas E.]

Apple forces you to get an Apple ID to make an iOS device useful.

If you want to sync your Edge browser across multiple devices you need at least a Live account. That's what I use for Windows 10 and my Apple phone and tablet. It takes all of 2 minutes to set up.

Finally, Liarboy, you can set Windows 10 without a Microsoft account, you are NOT forced. A simple Bing search on "set up windows 10 with no sign in" found this:

https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/windows_10-windows_install/set-up-windows-10-without-account/d7c08c1a-0fcc-49ac-96ac-297879dbee6f

You ignorance of Windows continues to amaze and delight!

[Arlen Holder]

On Sun, 28 Jun 2020 08:16:07 -0700 (PDT), Thomas E. wrote:

> Apple forces you to get an Apple ID to make an iOS device useful.

Hi Thomas E.,

It's only on iOS that not only _must_ you have an Apple ID for even basic
functionality of downloading apps, but concurrently, you must have the
privacy hole of an "advertiser id".

It's quite rare, on this newsgroup, to have anyone like you who actually
understands the facts, where my hat is off to you for trying to knock sense
into the Apple apologists.

Alan Baker is, at once, a cultist for Apple par excellence, dunning kruger
far-to-the-left first quadrant, and what I call a "Type III" apologist
(i.e., shockingly, he's not pulling your legs - he actually _believes_ what
he writes!).

*Notice what Alan Baker claims is mutually exclusive (i.e., doublespeak).*
o Windows, he thinks, requires a login in order to be functional (he thinks)
o The iPhone, he claims, is functional without a login (which it's definitely not).

Notice apologists are quite unlike normal people.
o They're bamboozled by MARKETING such that they can't comprehend facts.

I've noticed almost all Apple users appear to so bamboozled by their
imaginary belief system that they literally think, in doublespeak!
a) They want to think Apple is very different, and yet,
b) They constantly excuse Apple for doing exactly what everyone else does.

BTW, I have Windows 10 Pro, and Windows 10 Home on a variety of machines,
_none_ of which have a Microsoft account.

And, of course, on Android, there's absolutely no need to set the phone to
an account for _full_ functionality (e.g., Google Play works just fine via
the many anonymous scrapers such as the Aurora Store).

NOTE: That means the "advertiser ID" simply does not exist on Android!

It's only on iOS that not only _must_ you have an Apple ID for even basic
functionality of downloading apps, but concurrently, you must have the
privacy hole of an "advertiser id".
--
Bringing TRUTH to the Apple newsgroups by logic & application of fact.

[Alan Baker]

Apple has had an app store (since before they were called "app stores)
since the inception of the iPhone, Liarboy.

Microsoft has CHANGED this on an OS that doesn't require the use of an
app store.

>
> If you want to sync your Edge browser across multiple devices you
> need at least a Live account. That's what I use for Windows 10 and my
> Apple phone and tablet. It takes all of 2 minutes to set up.

Bully for you!

>
> Finally, Liarboy, you can set Windows 10 without a Microsoft account,
> you are NOT forced. A simple Bing search on "set up windows 10 with
> no sign in" found this:
>
> https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/windows_10-windows_install/set-up-windows-10-without-account/d7c08c1a-0fcc-49ac-96ac-297879dbee6f
>
> You ignorance of Windows continues to amaze and delight!
>

Except I specifically mentioned that workaround, Liarboy:

'Yes: there is apparently a workaround where you cut off the machine

from internet access before trying to create the account, but it's still

ridiculous that you're forced to use a fudge.'

[Thomas E.]

Your own words:

>> ...but Windows 10 Home now forces you to get one.

Which is not true, Liarboy.

[Thomas E.]

Here is an example of a Baker lie:

I wrote:

Try and set up an iPhone without an iCloud account. Even if you could do it the phone is crippled.

To which Liarboy Baker replied:

1. It's easy to do.

2. The phone is in no way crippled.

3. Way to go on the major deflection, Liarboy!

The facts are that iCloud with 5 gb storage comes with an Apple ID. Apple ID is required to use the App Store. Therefore, an iCloud account is required to actually use an iPhone. You don't have to use iCloud, but it's there. If there is a way to turn off iCloud I'd like to find out. Right after I got my first iPhone I ran out of the 5 gb and started getting nagging messages asking me to upgrade storage. I see the utility in iCloud, so I went with the 50 gb plan. Liarboy Baker at his best!

So, to summarize, Apple has a monopoly on iOS app distribution that can only be breached if you jailbreak a device, voiding any warranty and likely any Apple technical assistance. Using that monopoly power Apple forces you to sign up for an Apple account to unlock your iOS device's full capabilities. Absent an Apple account your iPhone is basically a feature phone and an iPad can pretty much only be used to browse the web and email.

[Alan Baker]

Except this entire thread is within the caveat of my earlier statement,
Liarboy.

There is a fudge which is in NO WAY explained to the simple user who
buys a PC. Microsoft doesn't advertise this as an option when you're
setting the PC up.

[Alan Baker]

While you will GET an iCloud account, are you are in no way forced to
USE an iCloud account, Liarboy.

>
> So, to summarize, Apple has a monopoly on iOS app distribution that
> can only be breached if you jailbreak a device, voiding any warranty
> and likely any Apple technical assistance. Using that monopoly power
> Apple forces you to sign up for an Apple account to unlock your iOS
> device's full capabilities. Absent an Apple account your iPhone is
> basically a feature phone and an iPad can pretty much only be used to
> browse the web and email.

And that is an integral part of the product and its services, Liarboy.

[Wolffan]

On 28 Jun 2020, Alan Baker wrote
(in article <rdaib4$2m3$1...@dont-email.me>):

I again note that the last time that I set up a Win 10 Home system there was
a ’skip this’ button in the install dialog when it mentioned MS Accounts.
I could, and did, avoid having a MS Account in Win 10 Home as late as January
this year. I don’t usually set up Home systems, I usually do Pro or
Education systems. As of late May this year (after 2004 arrived) I could and
did set up Pro and Education systems without MS Accounts, and not necessarily
by joining an Active Directory domain, either. (Though that’s what I
usually do. I have AD set up at home, after all...) It was true that I had to
be persistent to get the local account on Win 10 Home, as MS really, really,
REALLY wants you to use a MS Account, but it was possible. At least it was
possible in January. I repeat, has this changed?

[Alan Baker]

Yes, that has definitely changed:

<https://www.windowslatest.com/2020/02/22/microsoft-is-making-it-harder-to-use-windows-10-local-accounts/>

Yes: if you know that the option isn't available, you can start the
setup process without connecting to WiFi (or if wired, pull the Ethernet
cable)...

...but that's a workaround, not a real option.

[Wolffan]

On 28 Jun 2020, Alan Baker wrote

(in article <rdarbd$rvr$1...@dont-email.me>):

MS is being even more idiotic than normal.

[Arlen Holder]

On Sun, 28 Jun 2020 07:57:56 -0400, Wolffan wrote:

> the last time that I set up a Win 10 Home system (January this year) there

> was a Ēskip this stepĒ button on the install MS Account dialog.

Microsoft sucks in many ways, of that there is no doubt.

But on the topic of Alan Baker's claim that you need a Microsoft Account to
set up Windows 10 Home or Pro, Alan Baker is simply ignorant and stupid.

The main issue is he's too stupid to realize how stupid he actually is.
--
It's petrifyingly scary that these people are even allowed to vote.

[Arlen Holder]

On Sun, 28 Jun 2020 16:31:46 -0400, Wolffan wrote:

> MS is being even more idiotic than normal.

OMG... The idiot Wolffan believing the moron Alan Baker.

[Arlen Holder]

On Sun, 28 Jun 2020 09:49:39 -0700 (PDT), Thomas E. wrote:

> Try and set up an iPhone without an iCloud account.
> Even if you could do it the phone is crippled.

Hi Thomas E.,

Regarding the errant claims by Alan Baker in this thread he authored:
o Amazing what Windows still doesn't do well.
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/7BV04N_AAEI>

"You can no longer set up a new PC without creating a Microsoft Account"

Alan Baker posts purely for his own amusement... and he's always wrong.
o Much like a child, he spends _zero_ energy to get his facts straight

When you provide facts to apologists - they simply call all facts lies
o And, of course, like childish bullies - they call bearers of facts liars

As with cultists or flat earthers - facts are _dangerous_ to apologists.
o The only way apologists can process facts is to simply deny they exist.

Apple apologists like Alan Baker don't seem to ever care about actual facts
o Does anyone on this newsgroup ever deal with FACTS?
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/ACAP8ckqmeo>

You are stating facts, which, over time, will get you filtered on this ng.
o People on this ng _hate_ almost all actual facts about Apple products.

They prefer to live in the imaginary world crafted for them by MARKETING.

FACTS:
1. *An iOS device sans an iCloud account is crippled* (you can't add apps).
2. In addition, you're stuck with the _Apple advertiser ID privacy hole_.
3. Less important, the paltry 5GB iCloud storage is ridiculously puny.

FACTS:
1. *An Android device sans a Google account works just fine.
2. In addition, the advertiser ID privacy hole simply doesn't exist.*
3. Less important, you can still have 15GB cloud storage if you want it.

FACTS:
1. *I have Windows 10 Home & Pro and I do NOT have a Microsoft Account.*
2. In addition, you can turn off the Microsoft Windows advertising ID
Settings > Privacy > General > {turn everything off}
3. Less important, Microsoft offers "OneCloud" storage, but it's paltry.
--
The only time I needed a Microsoft ID was when I converted a few
inexpensive Windows 10S laptops to Windows 10 Home, where the conversion
_required_ a momentary Microsoft Account, which I then deleted.

[knuttle]

I have not had a MS account since I upgraded from Windows 8. When I
installed Windows 10, I created a MS account because it seem you had to.
A short time later I created a local account and have gone through
18xx, 19xx, and now installed 2004 and a couple of fixes, without
accessing the MS account. In fact I don't know if it is even active, or
if it is I have no idea what the pass word is.

[Roger Blake]

On 2020-06-28, knuttle <keith_...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> I have not had a MS account since I upgraded from Windows 8. When I
> installed Windows 10, I created a MS account because it seem you had to.

Microsoft does its best to lie and trick people into doing so but don't
have to. Typical MS dirty tricks. Don't connect to a network until
initial setup is completed and you can create a local account. (Tell
setup you don't have internet, and to continue with "limited setup".
Then connect when you finally get to the desktop.)

It is also a good idea to turn off all of the "features" offered during
setup, then go into the privacy settings and turn everything off that
you do not specifically need.

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Roger Blake (Posts from Google Groups killfiled due to excess spam.)

The US Census, what info must you give? -- http://censusfacts.info
Don't talk to cops! -- http://www.DontTalkToCops.com
Badges don't grant extra rights -- http://www.CopBlock.org
The facts about Climate Change -- http://www.RealClimateScience.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Arlen Holder]

On Mon, 29 Jun 2020 00:29:03 -0000 (UTC), Roger Blake wrote:

> Microsoft does its best to lie and trick people into doing so but don't
> have to. Typical MS dirty tricks. Don't connect to a network until
> initial setup is completed and you can create a local account. (Tell
> setup you don't have internet, and to continue with "limited setup".
> Then connect when you finally get to the desktop.)

Agreed that it's simple to tell Microsoft to "skip" creation of the
Microsoft Account (exact same with Android - you just "skip" it).

However, the OP, Alan Baker "claimed" it's difficult on the Mac forums:
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/7BV04N_AAEI>

On Tuesday, June 23, 2020 at 5:47:26 PM UTC-4, Alan Baker wrote:
> Setting up a new PC for a client today (she had a panic when for some
> reason her laptop went into its BIOS-based diagnostic mode while in her
> case while driving home and now she doesn't trust it), and I have many
> observations of the silliness that is Microsoft:
>
> Here are a few:
>
> 1. You can no longer set up a new PC without creating a Microsoft
> Account; no local account option is available anymore; not at least
> running Windows 10 Home. Yes: there is apparently a workaround where you
> cut off the machine from internet access before trying to create the
> account, but it's still ridiculous that you're forced to use a fudge.
>
> 2. (And I should have mentioned this ages ago)...
>
> ...why is there no built-in utility for migrating your data from an old
> PC????
>

> It is also a good idea to turn off all of the "features" offered during
> setup, then go into the privacy settings and turn everything off that
> you do not specifically need.

Regarding the useful suggestion from Roger Blake:

> It is also a good idea to turn off all of the "features" offered during
> setup, then go into the privacy settings and turn everything off that
> you do not specifically need.

Agreed that in every common consumer operating system (e.g., Android, iOS,
Windows, and maybe even Linux), it's important to change the default to
privacy-based defaults.

On Windows & on Android the privacy-based settings are scattered all about,
where some day I'll write up a comprehensive tutorial for both Windows &
Android settings (although they keep moving them about).

I've experimented with Android, in depth, for example, where it's
surprisingly easy to turn off all "known" Google apps without losing
functionality (which was a surprise, even to me that it was so easy):

For example:
o *My experiment turning all Android app permissions off*
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.mobile.android/FKjvRYbqgIw>

Where, surprisingly so, shockingly few had to be turned back on!
o <https://i.postimg.cc/8Cn1nNZf/killgoogle01.jpg>
o <https://i.postimg.cc/d0Q1xWvp/killgoogle02.jpg>
o <https://i.postimg.cc/DzwR5fYf/permission00.jpg>
o <https://i.postimg.cc/Cx4m8LzJ/permission01.jpg>
o <https://i.postimg.cc/pdGC0GQF/permission02.jpg>
o <https://i.postimg.cc/xTvRrTyY/permission03.jpg>
o <https://i.postimg.cc/QxWXjCfB/permission04.jpg>
o <https://i.postimg.cc/xdc1W5Nm/permission05.jpg>
o <https://i.postimg.cc/wxcg4Z4P/permission06.jpg>
o <https://i.postimg.cc/SxHBxftC/permission07.jpg>
o <https://i.postimg.cc/L8wMJx2c/permission08.jpg>
o <https://i.postimg.cc/KjZ66VDM/permission09.jpg>
o <https://i.postimg.cc/V6wptTTV/permission10.jpg>
o <https://i.postimg.cc/HkmSks4V/permission12.jpg>
o <https://i.postimg.cc/q7m1Lf6y/permission13.jpg>
o <https://i.postimg.cc/fbwNRB1D/permission14.jpg>

In summary, it's amazing how _easy_ it is to turn off permissions in both
Windows & Android, if you just look for the settings scattered about.
--
Someday I will spend a few days to write up and fully document the steps.
NOTE: Documentation takes far more time than does the experiment itself.

[Alan Baker]

On 2020-06-28 9:26 p.m., Arlen Holder wrote:
> On Mon, 29 Jun 2020 00:29:03 -0000 (UTC), Roger Blake wrote:
>
>> Microsoft does its best to lie and trick people into doing so but don't
>> have to. Typical MS dirty tricks. Don't connect to a network until
>> initial setup is completed and you can create a local account. (Tell
>> setup you don't have internet, and to continue with "limited setup".
>> Then connect when you finally get to the desktop.)
>
> Agreed that it's simple to tell Microsoft to "skip" creation of the
> Microsoft Account (exact same with Android - you just "skip" it).

No, actually.

Microsoft has removed that option as a UI choice.

Not setting up your internet is a fudge.

[Alan Baker]

On 2020-06-28 9:26 p.m., Arlen Holder wrote:

> On Mon, 29 Jun 2020 00:29:03 -0000 (UTC), Roger Blake wrote:
>
>> Microsoft does its best to lie and trick people into doing so but don't
>> have to. Typical MS dirty tricks. Don't connect to a network until
>> initial setup is completed and you can create a local account. (Tell
>> setup you don't have internet, and to continue with "limited setup".
>> Then connect when you finally get to the desktop.)
>
> Agreed that it's simple to tell Microsoft to "skip" creation of the
> Microsoft Account (exact same with Android - you just "skip" it).

Nope. It is no longer as simple as telling Microsoft to "skip" it...

...because there is no longer a button (or anything else) to click.

[Thomas E.]

Nice try, no go. You MUST have an iCloud account to make an iPhone useful. I NEVER said you have to use iCloud.

[Thomas E.]

You said: "You can no longer set up a new PC without creating a Microsoft

Account; no local account option is available anymore; not at least

running Windows 10 Home." That is a LIE.

It's as simple as searching "Set up Windows 10 without a Microsoft Account". For several ways to do this:

https://windows.gadgethacks.com/how-to/psa-you-can-run-windows-10-without-microsoft-account-0163711/#:~:text=%20You%20Can%20Run%20Windows%2010%20Without%20a,For%20many%20years%2C%20Windows%20has%20supported...%20More%20

You want to look for problems, easy solutions be damned.

[Thomas E.]

Disconnecting the internet is an option.

[Thomas E.]

He just wants to bitch, not look for solutions that are dead easy to find.

[Alan Baker]

You get one... ...but you don't need to USE it in any way. So it's moot.

The iPhone has always been focused around using an app store to buy
software for it. A large part of its success has been that people had
trust in that process. So Apple requiring what it has ALWAYS required is
not the same as Microsoft removing any UI method for just setting up a
PC with a local account.

[Alan Baker]

'On the setup screen called Make it yours, where it asks you to type in
your Microsoft account information, choose the "Skip this step" option
on the bottom left of the screen.'

That option is no longer available with Windows 10 Home.

[Alan Baker]

Only if you know it exists.

Real options are presented to the user, not hidden on advice websites.

[Alan Baker]

I had the solution...


...it's just absurd that Microsoft prevents the ordinary user for doing
what he or she has been able to do for decades.

[Arlen Holder]

On Mon, 29 Jun 2020 14:30:15 -0700 (PDT), Thomas E. wrote:

> You MUST have an iCloud account to make an iPhone useful.

Hi Thomas E.,
You're dealing with an Apple apologist - for whom facts are anathema.
o Yet again - these *Apple apologists' belief systems are devoid of fact*.

The facts are Alan Baker boldly made these two clear & obvious claims:
Alan: "It's easy to do [i.e., set up an iPhone without an iCloud account].
Alan: "The phone is in no way crippled."

And yet, the facts are that the iPhone _is_ crippled sans the login account
o And, you _must_ have an iCloud account (along with the Advertiser ID).

Years ago, I wondered why these apologists appeared to be so ignorant
a. Either they were pulling out leg every time they posted, or,
b. They actually _believed_ what they write (which is shocking if true).

Only over time did I realize it depends on the "type" of apologist:
o Type I apologists like nospam don't believe a word of what they claim
o Type II apologists like Steve Scharf are simply ignorant of basic facts
o Type III apologists like Alan Baker actually _believe_ what they write!

Yet again - these Apple apologists' belief systems are devoid of fact.
o It's proof apologists are not like normal human beings
--
What's petrifyingly scary is that Alan Baker is actually allowed to vote.

[Thomas E.]

The iPhone is focused on it's app distribution monopoly that generates after-sale fees for Apple. Sort of like HP almost giving printers away so they can sell ink.

That's why you are required to have an Apple ID, and accompanying iCloud account, to actually use the phone as intended.

The Microsoft change, if there was one, upsets you only because you are not a victim of an app store distribution monopoly. You can get Windows software from multiple competitive sources.

[Alan Baker]

That's as may be, Liarboy...

...but it is the way it was designed from the outset and it is clearly a
very popular modus operandi for consumers.

>
> That's why you are required to have an Apple ID, and accompanying
> iCloud account, to actually use the phone as intended.
>
> The Microsoft change, if there was one, upsets you only because you
> are not a victim of an app store distribution monopoly. You can get
> Windows software from multiple competitive sources.

Which is you dragging the goalposts.

Answer these two questions honestly (as if!). Yes or no:

Has Apple changed the model by which the iPhone makes software available
to require something that was not required before?

Has Microsoft removed the user-friendly option to create a local account
from Windows 10 Home?

[Arlen Holder]

On Mon, 29 Jun 2020 14:36:44 -0700 (PDT), Thomas E. wrote:

> He just wants to bitch, not look for solutions that are dead easy to find

Hi Thomas E.,

Actually it's worse than "he just wants to bitch".
o *Shockingly, Alan Baker actually _believes_ what he wrote!*

He's a Type III apologist, similar to Jolly Roger, Lewis, Chris, BK, Joerg
Lorenz, et al., where their entire _identity_ is wrapped up in Apple's
MARKETING messaging.

Apple knows these Type III apologists far better than they know themselves.

Apple MARKETING constantly feeds them exactly what they want to hear, about
what they fear most, which is, as far as I can tell:
a. They fear functionality - they actually call functionality complexity!
b. They fear danger - which is why they _rush_ to install iOS each time
c. They fear not being stylish - such that they line up to ditch old phones
etc.

Apple _knows_ their customer is _driven_ almost mad by these three fears.
o complexity
o danger
o style

They are basically driven insane by these fears, where all three are
threatened by Windows and Android, such that any dirt they can find on
Windows or Android, they _love_ to tout since they're _threatened_ by these
operating systems.

What's interesting is nobody on Android or on Windows is even in the least
threatened by Apple products - it's only the Apple users who are
threatened, because they live their lives daily in abject fear.

On the Android newsgroup, we openly discuss when Google sucks, just as we
do on the Windows newsgroups - where we're not at all afraid of the truth.

But on the Apple newsgroups, they're literally afraid of the truth.

Which is why, for example, like flat earthers and cultists, they simply
deny the truth, flat out, as their entire belief system is imaginary.

As I noted, the type III apologists (Alan Baker, Lewis, Jolly Roger, et
al.) actually _believe_ what they write, even as it lacks any semblance of
adult cognitive thought processes.

So trust that Alan Baker actually believes it when he boldly claims:
"You can eliminate the Apple ID on iOS & still have full functionality"

*Shockingly, Alan Baker actually _believes_ what he wrote!*
--
That's the petrifyingly scary thing about these Type III Apple apologists.

[Alan Baker]

On 2020-06-29 3:05 p.m., Arlen Holder wrote:
> On Mon, 29 Jun 2020 14:36:44 -0700 (PDT), Thomas E. wrote:
>
>> He just wants to bitch, not look for solutions that are dead easy to find
>
> Hi Thomas E.,
>
> Actually it's worse than "he just wants to bitch".
> o *Shockingly, Alan Baker actually _believes_ what he wrote!*

I know what I wrote to be true.

1. I have personal experience setting up a new HP laptop just last week.

2. It's been reported all over:

<https://www.windowslatest.com/2020/02/22/microsoft-is-making-it-harder-to-use-windows-10-local-accounts/>

<https://www.howtogeek.com/442609/confirmed-windows-10-setup-now-prevents-local-account-creation/>

<https://www.zdnet.com/article/windows-10-users-fume-microsoft-wheres-our-local-account-option-gone/>

<https://www.thurrott.com/forums/microsoft/windows/thread/microsoft-remove-option-to-create-local-windows-account>

<https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/microsoft/microsoft-wants-to-do-away-with-windows-10-local-accounts/>

[Paul]

It's there.

Release 2004 tested in a virtual machine, so I can take pictures.

https://i.postimg.cc/7YjwSXSF/local-acct-waltz.gif

If the picture isn't sharp enough, use the "Download Original" at
the top of the page.

The necessary buttons are placed in a "darker" part of the
screen in the hope you won't see them.

Paul

[Arlen Holder]

On Mon, 29 Jun 2020 18:46:05 -0400, Paul wrote:

> It's there.
>
> Release 2004 tested in a virtual machine, so I can take pictures.
>
> https://i.postimg.cc/7YjwSXSF/local-acct-waltz.gif
>
> If the picture isn't sharp enough, use the "Download Original" at
> the top of the page.
>
> The necessary buttons are placed in a "darker" part of the
> screen in the hope you won't see them.
>
> Paul

Hi Paul,

You're dealing with what Mayayana calls an "AppleSeed"...

As usual, Alan Baker is fantastically _immune_ to obvious facts!
o He just wants to complain about Windows by making up issues
o And, he wants to claim iOS is functional without an Apple ID

All sans even a single shred of actual adult cognition behind his claims.

Let's see how this Type III apologist, who claimed many times it is not
there, responds to your image showing that it _is_ actually there:
o <https://i.postimg.cc/7YjwSXSF/local-acct-waltz.gif>

Given Alan Baker is the one who authored that thread, he should respond:

o Amazing what Windows still doesn't do well.
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/7BV04N_AAEI>

Bear in mind Apologists like Alan Baker are so afraid of Windows & Android
that they have to fabricate completely imaginary issues that don't even
exist (even as, Lord knows, there are _plenty_ of real issues on both
platforms that we users discuss daily, openly, and factually).
o Why are apologists like Alan Baker so fantastically immune to basic
skills an adult should have on the Internet?
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/4AdaprOPM-g>

Let's see what 'adult' response Alan Baker has, to the facts you provided!
o What are the common well-verified psychological traits of the
Apple Apologists on this newsgroup?
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/miwGEINsoFQ>
--
The weird thing with Apple apologists is they feel Microsoft (Windows) &
Google (Android) are both a dire threat to their very existence; and yet,
nobody on Windows or Android feels Apple is in any way a threat to them.

[Alan Baker]

It is no longer there on Windows 10 Home.

[Alan Baker]

On 2020-06-29 2:35 p.m., Thomas E. wrote:

> On Monday, June 29, 2020 at 3:25:25 PM UTC-4, Alan Baker wrote:
>> On 2020-06-28 9:26 p.m., Arlen Holder wrote:
>>> On Mon, 29 Jun 2020 00:29:03 -0000 (UTC), Roger Blake wrote:
>>>
>>>> Microsoft does its best to lie and trick people into doing so but don't
>>>> have to. Typical MS dirty tricks. Don't connect to a network until
>>>> initial setup is completed and you can create a local account. (Tell
>>>> setup you don't have internet, and to continue with "limited setup".
>>>> Then connect when you finally get to the desktop.)
>>>
>>> Agreed that it's simple to tell Microsoft to "skip" creation of the
>>> Microsoft Account (exact same with Android - you just "skip" it).
>>
>> Nope. It is no longer as simple as telling Microsoft to "skip" it...
>>
>> ...because there is no longer a button (or anything else) to click.
>
> You said: "You can no longer set up a new PC without creating a Microsoft
> Account; no local account option is available anymore; not at least
> running Windows 10 Home." That is a LIE.

Nope. Because I included the caveat that there was a workaround...

[Paul]

The only difference I see, is the taskbar might
be a different color in Home. The account dialogs
seem the same to me.

https://i.postimg.cc/FRRDNMD8/local-Home-2004.gif

Paul

[Alan Baker]

And what version of Windows 10 Home is that...

...because it is literally ALL OVER the web that Microsoft has made this
change.

[Paul]

2004.

Name: Windows10-x64-2004.iso
Size: 4144168960 bytes (3952 MiB)
SHA1: A0D4D131ED24646B281BCE6F4E833CBBC10C7C12

I don't know if all the ones made by MediaCreationTool,
match on checksum. The files are marked as .wim inside,
rather than .esd, so the checksum should be listed somewhere.

If you purchased Windows 8.1 electronically and downloaded it,
the large file inside was a .esd file and the checksum on
those was never the same. I even re-downloaded the image
using my account details (from the purchase) and the
checksum was different on the second downloaded disc. This
destroys the ability to track materials by checksum. I don't
think that method is being used, but, you never know.

Mine is the 7 OS version DVD, which has Win10 Pro x64
and Win10 Home x64 and five others. And it's made by
MediaCreationTool, which you get if you visit the
download page with Windows 7 thru Windows 10.

If a person pulls the version you get from a Linux (or a
Mac browser), those will have a more consistent checksum.
The difference is, the ISO doesn't fit single-layer media
for the x64 one, and it has an additional four OSes on it.
That's the 11 OS DVD version. That would give exactly
the same install results for Win10 Pro x64 and Win10 Home x64
though.

Paul

[Alan Baker]

On 2020-06-29 6:24 p.m., Paul wrote:
> Alan Baker wrote:
>> On 2020-06-29 5:48 p.m., Paul wrote:
>>> Alan Baker wrote:
>>>> On 2020-06-29 3:46 p.m., Paul wrote:
>>>
>>>>> It's there.
>>>>>
>>>>> Release 2004 tested in a virtual machine, so I can take pictures.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://i.postimg.cc/7YjwSXSF/local-acct-waltz.gif
>>>>>
>>>>> If the picture isn't sharp enough, use the "Download Original" at
>>>>> the top of the page.
>>>>>
>>>>> The necessary buttons are placed in a "darker" part of the
>>>>> screen in the hope you won't see them.
>>>>
>>>> Nope.
>>>>
>>>> It is no longer there on Windows 10 Home.
>>>
>>> The only difference I see, is the taskbar might
>>> be a different color in Home. The account dialogs
>>> seem the same to me.
>>>
>>> https://i.postimg.cc/FRRDNMD8/local-Home-2004.gif
>>>
>>>     Paul
>>
>> And what version of Windows 10 Home is that...
>>
>> ...because it is literally ALL OVER the web that Microsoft has made
>> this change.
>
> 2004.

Which is

>
> Name: Windows10-x64-2004.iso
> Size: 4144168960 bytes (3952 MiB)
> SHA1: A0D4D131ED24646B281BCE6F4E833CBBC10C7C12
>
> I don't know if all the ones made by MediaCreationTool,
> match on checksum. The files are marked as .wim inside,
> rather than .esd, so the checksum should be listed somewhere.
>
> If you purchased Windows 8.1 electronically and downloaded it,
> the large file inside was a .esd file and the checksum on
> those was never the same. I even re-downloaded the image
> using my account details (from the purchase) and the
> checksum was different on the second downloaded disc. This
> destroys the ability to track materials by checksum. I don't
> think that method is being used, but, you never know.
>
> Mine is the 7 OS version DVD, which has Win10 Pro x64
> and Win10 Home x64 and five others. And it's made by
> MediaCreationTool, which you get if you visit the
> download page with Windows 7 thru Windows 10.
>
> If a person pulls the version you get from a Linux (or a
> Mac browser), those will have a more consistent checksum.
> The difference is, the ISO doesn't fit single-layer media
> for the x64 one, and it has an additional four OSes on it.
> That's the 11 OS DVD version. That would give exactly
> the same install results for Win10 Pro x64 and Win10 Home x64
> though.

I don't know what to tell you.

I set up a new HP PC for a client and no such option was present.

I know, because I was there.

[Paul]

Did Winver return 19041.1 or something else ?

*******

Another possibility, is you were in Win10-S Home or Win10-S Pro
or whatever. The App Store OS only makes sense with an MSA to
drive it.

Paul

[Alan Baker]

I don't have the system in front of me...

...because I set it up for a client.

:-)

>
> *******
>
> Another possibility, is you were in Win10-S Home or Win10-S Pro
> or whatever. The App Store OS only makes sense with an MSA to
> drive it.

I don't believe it was Win10-S...

...but I don't know for certain sitting right here and now.

[Paul]

There's a claim here, that 1909 matches your experience.
That Pro has the buttons to escape, while Home requires
pulling the network cable.

https://www.thurrott.com/windows/windows-10/222344/microsoft-made-major-setup-changes-in-windows-10-version-1909

Paul

[Alan Baker]

It's hardly the only one.

Google up:

"can't setup new pc with local account windows 10 home"

[Thomas E.]

You weasel. You flatly said it could not be done when there are several ways.

[Thomas E.]

What you wrote was that it is impossible to set up Windows 10 Home without a MS account. That is not true.

Now admit you lied. Even you admitted that way down in the post.

[Alan Baker]

I flatly said:

'1. You can no longer set up a new PC without creating a Microsoft

Account; no local account option is available anymore; not at least

running Windows 10 Home. Yes: there is apparently a workaround where you
cut off the machine from internet access before trying to create the

account, but it's still ridiculous that you're forced to use a fudge.'

In a thread entitled:

'Amazing what Windows still doesn't do WELL.'

Which clearly implies that Windows DOES do it.

A workaround which is at no time mentioned to the person doing the setup
is not a real solution. It is a FUDGE.

[Alan Baker]

No. That is NOT what I wrote.

>
> Now admit you lied. Even you admitted that way down in the post.

'1. You can no longer set up a new PC without creating a Microsoft
Account; no local account option is available anymore; not at least
running Windows 10 Home. Yes: there is apparently a workaround where you
cut off the machine from internet access before trying to create the
account, but it's still ridiculous that you're forced to use a fudge.'

I explicitly stated that it WAS possible, but in a manner that was
user-unfriendly in the extreme, Liarboy.

[Thomas E.]

Quote:

"Setting up a new PC for a client today (she had a panic when for some
reason her laptop went into its BIOS-based diagnostic mode while in her
case while driving home and now she doesn't trust it), and I have many
observations of the silliness that is Microsoft:

Here are a few:

1. You can no longer set up a new PC without creating a Microsoft
Account; no local account option is available anymore; not at least
running Windows 10 Home. Yes: there is apparently a workaround where you
cut off the machine from internet access before trying to create the
account, but it's still ridiculous that you're forced to use a fudge."

You can set up a new PC without an account. What you should have said was:

"I find that you can still set up a Windows PC without a Microsoft account, but you may have to be off the internet to do it."

But NO, you had to say it's impossible. You nuance to the extreme.

There is an easy way too AFTER the install. AFTER Windows is installed with the account:

https://www.howtogeek.com/442792/how-to-create-a-local-account-while-setting-up-windows-10/

"If you’ve already created a Microsoft account during the setup process, you can convert it to a local user account afterward. In fact, this is what Microsoft officially recommends during the installation process—just signing in with a Microsoft account and removing it later.

To do this, head to Settings > Accounts > Your Info in Windows 10. Click “Sign in with a local account instead” and Windows 10 will guide you through switching from a Microsoft account to a local user account."

A REAL Windows expert would know this! Again, your lack of REAL Windows expertise is exposed. You lied when you stated: "You can no longer set up a new PC without creating a Microsoft Account; no local account option is available anymore; not at least running Windows 10 Home." There is an option, and it's quite easy.

I found this solution in literally 30 seconds with a simple search. Again, you failed to look elsewhere for a solution, assuming that you are the all-knowing expert that you are not.

Also, how did even get to the point where this became an issue when a cold boot could have worked and she could have kept her old PC? Did you even try to explain to her that it could be a minor issue - like it overheated because it was in a case and still on. Hint - I have seen this issue happen.

[Alan Baker]

Ummmm... ...what? I understand perfectly what happens when a computer
gets overheated when it's turned on inside its case.

We went through all her options and she chose to get a new system.

[Thomas E.]

It it was not turned on why did it go into a diagnostic mode? Did you explain that it might be her problem, not the computer?

[Alan Baker]

I didn't say it wasn't turned on, Liarboy. It clearly WAS turned on.

> Did you explain that it might be her problem, not the computer?

Of course. The fact that I didn't outline our entire conversation
doesn't mean we didn't have one:

'(she had a panic when for some reason her laptop went into its

BIOS-based diagnostic mode while in her case while driving home and now

she doesn't trust it)'

[Thomas E.]

My friend had a panic attack too when his PC would not finish booting up to the desktop. I calmed him down and fixed it. He did not buy a new PC.

My friend wins, your "client" loses the cost of a new PC when it was probably her fault for putting in the case while turned on. Some "advisor" you are!

[Alan Baker]

And my client...

The who was PAYING.

...made a different choice.

>
> My friend wins, your "client" loses the cost of a new PC when it was
> probably her fault for putting in the case while turned on. Some
> "advisor" you are!

It doesn't matter whose fault it is once the computer will no longer boot.

I laid out her options and she chose a new system.

[Thomas E.]

You never said it would not boot. You said she did not trust it, Liarboy. Inventing the story as you go along? Probably.

If true, what did you try to get it booted up? If it was a minor issue it's your fault.

[Thomas E.]

It's also all over the web that you can create the MS account and then convert to a local account after the install.

[Alan Baker]

And do you expect that one should have to check out the web for a change
like this before beginning what should be a very basic and simple operation?

[Alan Baker]

Oh, no!

As a preface to an experience with the idiocy that Microsoft now
attempts (Is "attempts" acceptable to you, Liarboy?) by removing the
simple UI choice to create a local account when setting up a new
machine, I didn't mention every detail of the situation that led up to
needing to set up a new PC!

Heaven forfend!