Planescape from Final Fantasy (long)
Kenny Smith
Fantasy has had on the design of Planescape:Torment. In particular, I'm
talking about the closed-minded people who easily dismiss the Final
Fantasy series because of its console roots, all the while singing
praises of a great CRPG like Torment.
At first I thought I was imagining things while playing Torment ---
drawing parallels between an AD&D game and Final Fantasy games. But
after having read a few articles from the Torment designers openly
praising Final Fantasy, I'm more convinced than ever. Some of Final
Fantasy's influence include:
--strong focus on personal story & inter-PC relationships, where the
"epic save-the-world" cliche becomes a mere background. Most RPGs put
the "epic" in the foreground, and the "personal" becomes an
afterthought. Hell, off the top of my head, I can't even think of any
other computer RPG that has ever done this.
--Weapons systems. In Planescape, like in the Final Fantasies, ALL the
weapons & their upgrades are designed specifically for each PC. Morte
can only have Teeth Weapons (and vise versa). Dak'kon his Karach
blade. Axe for Vhailor, arrows for Nordom, and so forth. The only
exception is that NMO can use some of Annah's gloves. When you find/buy
a weapon, 99% of the time it can only be used by one specific
character. This system is most prominent in Final Fantasy games. For
computer RPGs, it's unheard of.
--Spell Implementation. The first time I saw a mid level offensive
spell in Planescape, I immediately thought about FF7 & FF8. It's a
system where *everything* pauses while the screen pans and centers
around the target to maximize dramatic effect. Then a graphic will show
up (toxic cloud, call lightning, lighning chain, etc) while everything
else is frozen. Most other CRPGs do their spell FX in real time.
Further, high-level Planescape spells actually go as far as showing cut
scenes (or movies), such panning the screen to a scene in space for
Meteorite summons, or any of Planescape FMV summon sequences. I
could've sworn I was playing a Final Fantasy game. The system employed
by Planescape is *exactly* the same as the one used for spells/summons
in FF7 & FF8. The designer Kenneth Lee openly credited Final Fantasy
for his inspiration for this system.
--Storyline. (possible minor spoilers). In both FF7 & Planescape, we
have heroes that slowly discover their past through mysterious
flashbacks. There's even a scene in both games where the hero meets 3
versions of himself, each representing a different side to his psyche.
Then there's the possible merging of the 3 parts to create a whole.
There's also the romantic aspect of the story. In both FF7 &
Planescape, the player controls the hero's romantic involvement with
either the brash, spunky girl (Annah, Tifa) or the pristine, lady-like
woman (FF-Grace, Aeris). Then there's also the part in FF8 & Planescape
where the hero (NMO, Squall) slowly discover that most of the companions
he picked up have a forgotten history/relationship with him.
--The Player Characters (PCs) in Planescape are designed in a very Final
Fantasyish way. Armor for Planescape women are bought at tailors, which
reminded me of the cheesy "dresses" for Final Fantasy women's armor. I
already mentioned the PC-specific weaponry, and the PC's forgotten
history with the main hero. They also created unique music for each PC,
which is a trademark of Final Fantasy games since FF2. Off the top of
my head, I can't think of any other Computer RPG that has ever done this
for every player-character. There's also the heavy focus on optional
background storyline for every PC you pick up. Most CRPGs give you the
PC's background story *when* you meet them, but it's forgotten/neglected
soon afterwards. Occasionally you'll have one or two PCs with optional
storyline that appears in mid-game (ie Coran's lover in BG, Iolo's wife
in UltimaV). In Planescape & FF games, this is true for nearly *all*
members of your party. Additionally, the background storyline for every
PC is stretched out & developed over the course of the game. In fact,
I'd say that the backbone of the Planescape story is in the character
development of your party members. The "epic" part of the story becomes
background to that.
--Those Lim-lims remind me of those Moogles from FFIII (usa). Cute
little creatures with the potential to be lethal, and can only quip
"Pi-Yo!". Moogles served the exact same purpose in FFIII, except they
quipped "Ku-Po!"
--Hero development. In FF7 & FF8, the heroes (Cloud, Squall) usually
have twice as much experience points as their party members. This
effectively makes the hero the strongest character due to his high level
& experience (as opposed to special powers). NMO is the same way
relative to his companions.
Now, let me *emphasize* that any one of the reasons I mentioned above
could be a simple coincidence. However, taken as a whole, I think it
clearly shows the influence Final Fantasy had on Planescape. Add to
that the open admiration of Planescape designers for Final Fantasy (read
the "Thank You" section of the Planescape manual). I hope people
remember this the next time somebody foolishly dismisses Final Fantasy
as just another juvenile "console" game.
Patrick Mcginley
: I am so glad I am not the only one thinking that.
You are forgetting some other parallels! They are:
1. They are both GAMES! For computer like gadgets!
2. Both employ representations of human ALTER EGOS!
3. Nerds made both of them! Only from different parts of the world!
4. Hit Points! Need I say more?
5. Spells! Oh, yeah, someone mentioned this before...
6. From what I hear, both involve devil worship in some way!
7. They both ripped off every RPG to come before them - and both openly
praise other RPG's! Coincidence? My ass!
8. Neither has horribly ugly women you can add to your party - what, do
the developers for both meet together in a secret meeting once a month and
plan strategy or something? What happened to our anti-monopoly laws!
Someone call Janet Reno and her flame throwing tank, or her Japanese
equivalent!
I was thinking they were *really different* until some guy mentioned the
secondary save-the-world aspect. Two teams of genius freethinkers to come
up with the same damn brilliant inovative idea at the same time? You have
me convinced - they were both created by the same people. What's their
angle? I haven't the foggiest, but by God, MAN - You are on to something
bigger than the both of us!
If I don't post again, they have gotten to me! Save yourself!!!
--
transport. motorways & tramlines. starting then stopping. taking off &
landing. the emptiest of feelings. disappointed people. clinging onto
bottles. when it comes it's so, so disappointing. let down and hanging
around. crushed like a bug in the ground. i7yci7cyi** Radiohead
Shawn Gumbleton
along with your three-line follow-up?
-Shawn
> The Final Fantasy *series* is good. Final Fantasy VII, and from all
> reports VIII, however, are straight-line adventure game crap. They
> aren't RPGs.
>
> To respond by email, remove "blort" from the front of my email
> address.
> blort...@ou.edu
> Jason McCullough
>
> ".....to identify Flavor Flav as a clown with a clock is to lose sight
> of Public Enemy's goal to inspire, entertain and educate."
> (from www.public-enemy.com)
Jason McCullough
The Final Fantasy *series* is good. Final Fantasy VII, and from all
Silke (Snowball)
side quests, which have been given much thought, especially in 7. In fact, I
would consider there is much more freedom in FF7 than PST, however, they are
both two of my favorite RPGs of all time.
Firearm
There are also other points:
1. Annah's a melee fighter using her fists; so is Tifa in FF7.
2. FFG's a healer; so is Aerith in FF7 (her limit break)
3. Dakkon's character is very similar to that of a Japanese Samurai in
fedural Japan. (no, this has nothing to do with the FFs...)
On Sat, 12 Feb 2000 18:31:56 -0600, Kenny Smith <ksm...@nospam.com>
wrotf:
William
Kenny Smith <ksm...@nospam.com> wrote:
(snip list of similarities)
Those are some good points, but Torment was superior in one way: the
ending. The FF games all end with a typical fight Foozle ending. In
Torment, there was a choice as to how the game could end. I liked that a
lot.
But yes, they are quite similar in some ways. And, when I first saw
Celestial Host, I thought "That's Torment's answer to Knights of the
Round..."
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Zyan
characterisation and plot. And I really like to thank BIS for being
"influenced" by the ground-breaking FF series so that after all these years,
I can finally play a RPG that has such a great story and character
interaction.
RPG developers, please make more of such RPGs. There are enough action RPGs
and hack/slash RPGs out there now to fulfil the killer instincts of mine. I
need something intelligent and emotional too.
Firearm <fs...@hotnospamail.com> wrote in message
news:38a618bf...@news.hknet.com...
Zyan
really that well hidden). Vincent in FF7 (Yuki is still OK).
Firearm <fs...@hotnospamail.com> wrote in message
news:38a618bf...@news.hknet.com...
Miles Osborne
>Now, let me *emphasize* that any one of the reasons I mentioned above
>could be a simple coincidence. However, taken as a whole, I think it
>clearly shows the influence Final Fantasy had on Planescape. Add to
>that the open admiration of Planescape designers for Final Fantasy (read
>the "Thank You" section of the Planescape manual). I hope people
I don't have a Thank you section in my Planescape manual (UK) is this
another example of where the UK operation has cut back. In BG they
missed out the Cloth Map that the US version had.
Does anyone else no what else has been missed by the UK.
If anyone has the time I wouldn't mind knowing what the Thank you
section said.
Miles
--
Miles Osborne mailto:m...@mados.demon.co.uk
Southampton
UK UIN: 29637931
John Ford.
<blort...@ou.edu> wrote:
>The Final Fantasy *series* is good. Final Fantasy VII, and from all
>reports VIII, however, are straight-line adventure game crap. They
>aren't RPGs.
Yeah, you're right. All that 40-hours of combat I struggled through
plus another dozen or so hours of item collecting to beat those Weapon
guys was actually an elaborate hallucination. My friends tell me I was
actually just clicking the circle button to read signposts for several
days.
John Ford.
Mcginley) wrote:
>I seem to recall Firearm babbling somthing about:
>: I am so glad I am not the only one thinking that.
>
>You are forgetting some other parallels! They are:
>
>1. They are both GAMES! For computer like gadgets!
>2. Both employ representations of human ALTER EGOS!
>3. Nerds made both of them! Only from different parts of the world!
>4. Hit Points! Need I say more?
>5. Spells! Oh, yeah, someone mentioned this before...
>6. From what I hear, both involve devil worship in some way!
>7. They both ripped off every RPG to come before them - and both openly
>praise other RPG's! Coincidence? My ass!
>8. Neither has horribly ugly women you can add to your party - what, do
>the developers for both meet together in a secret meeting once a month and
>plan strategy or something? What happened to our anti-monopoly laws!
>Someone call Janet Reno and her flame throwing tank, or her Japanese
>equivalent!
>
>I was thinking they were *really different* until some guy mentioned the
>secondary save-the-world aspect. Two teams of genius freethinkers to come
>up with the same damn brilliant inovative idea at the same time? You have
>me convinced - they were both created by the same people. What's their
>angle? I haven't the foggiest, but by God, MAN - You are on to something
>bigger than the both of us!
>
>If I don't post again, they have gotten to me! Save yourself!!!
Your sarcasm does not dilute the validity of the original post, nor
does it erase the heavy thanks to FF7 & 8 as influences in Torment's
manual.
John Ford.
>A lot of people probably don't realize just how much influence Final
>Fantasy has had on the design of Planescape:Torment. In particular, I'm
>talking about the closed-minded people who easily dismiss the Final
>Fantasy series because of its console roots, all the while singing
>praises of a great CRPG like Torment.
[SNIP]
Personally, I'm happy to finally have a computer RPG where character
development involves more than "You gained +1 DEX!"
Until Torment, I played console RPG's to feel attached to the
characters, and computer RPG's to explore a world. Hopefully Torment
will hasten the development of more games that allow me to do both.
John Ford.
<new...@mados.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>Does anyone else no what else has been missed by the UK.
>
>If anyone has the time I wouldn't mind knowing what the Thank you
>section said.
The designers had a "Thanks to" section. One of them read simply,
"Final Fantasy 7 and 8, for inspiration."
TitanMage
(specifically FF7, the only one I played) conventions did not make their way
into PS:T.
1) Dialogue that is weakly translated from another language and very kiddie-ish
2) Not being able to see enemies before combat
3) Non-visual inventory system
4) Save points
5) Different look for world map vs. locales
6) Not being able to customize and advance your character to your style/liking
(role playing)
7) Very very poor graphics except for combat sequences
8) No mouse control
9) No spoken dialogue
10) Very few side-quests, very linear
11) Very repetitive combat limited to your three characters against only up to
five enemies in the same formations over and over
12) No multiple solutions to waypoints (triggers that advance the plot)
13) Personally, I don't care for anime (flying pumpkins, penguins, tarzan
swinging from a vine??)
The features that made it into PS:T are the good ones. IMHO, these other bad
features above, definitely outweigh the good. Give credit where credit is due,
but PS:T is a masterpiece, whereas FF7 is really a sub-par game with a couple
of nice features.
FS
>>I was thinking they were *really different* until some guy mentioned the
>>secondary save-the-world aspect. Two teams of genius freethinkers to come
>>up with the same damn brilliant inovative idea at the same time? You have
>>me convinced - they were both created by the same people. What's their
>>angle? I haven't the foggiest, but by God, MAN - You are on to something
>>bigger than the both of us!
>>
>>If I don't post again, they have gotten to me! Save yourself!!!
>
>Your sarcasm does not dilute the validity of the original post, nor
>does it erase the heavy thanks to FF7 & 8 as influences in Torment's
>manual.
Nopes, but it's hilarious as hell. :)
L.J. Wischik
>[snip]
>If I don't post again, they have gotten to me! Save yourself!!!
Very funny!
--
Lucian Wischik, Queens' College, Cambridge CB3 9ET. www.wischik.com/lu
Kenny Smith
entirety, have you? Maybe read a few things about it, or played a couple of
hours? Your post feels like a typical response from somebody like that.
Your sarcasm is humorous, but severely misguided. There's very little actual
content in your otherwise long post. Don't criticize anything you know very
little about (my post, or the Final Fantasy series) unless you can support it
with solid arguments.
The Final Fantasy games are great games, but not *great* rpgs by the standard
definition of rpgs. In fact, it's probably closer to an Adventure game
running an RPG engine. I seem to recall Planescape:Torment being described by
many reviewers in a very similar (though more favorable) way.
Kenny Smith
TitanMage wrote:
> Well, yes there are some similarities, but be thankful that some other FF
> (specifically FF7, the only one I played) conventions did not make their way
> into PS:T.
>
Well, you have to look both games under different lights. FF games are console
games, generally designed for a younger audience *and* for an obsolete system with
limited resources. I don't agree with your assessment that FF7 was a sub-par
game. It was a sub-par RPG, but a great game.
>
> 1) Dialogue that is weakly translated from another language and very kiddie-ish
You have to take into account two things: The Japanese version loses a lot in the
translation to English. Some of the cheesy sentences in English doesn't
necessarily sound as weird in the original, colloquial Japanese dialogue. The
second (and most important) thing to remember are the characters. The characters
you play in FF7 & FF8 typically are 15-17 year old kids. Hearing NMO say "cool!
kickass! suck!" is out of character. Hearing a 15-year old Yuffie say the same
things is not.
>
> 2) Not being able to see enemies before combat
> 3) Non-visual inventory system
> 4) Save points
> 5) Different look for world map vs. locales
> 6) Not being able to customize and advance your character to your style/liking
> (role playing)
> 7) Very very poor graphics except for combat sequences
> 8) No mouse control
> 9) No spoken dialogue
All of the above are limitations of an obsolete system that's probably the
equivalent of a Pentium 120 Mhz. I mean, you can't store a lot of information in
those little memory cards for the playstation, hence the lack of customization.
It's amazing what Squaresoft was able to do with an old system like the
Playstation. Comparing FF games to PC games is like saying the Nebraska
Cornhuskers (a good college team) suck because they're not as talented as the
Cincinatti Bengals (a horrible NFL team).
>
> 10) Very few side-quests, very linear
This was true for FF8. FF7 had a *lot* of sidequests, optional characters, quests
for optional materia & weapons & limit breaks, a *lot* of optional scenes triggered
by optional characters. FF7 was linear up until you get the airship, and from
there it's open ended. Besides, PST is *very* linear too. The sections starting
from Ragpicker's Square -> Burried village -> Catacombs -> Drowned Nations -> Tomb
is practically a straight line. Same goes for the ending sequence of Upper Curst
-> Lower Curst -> Underground -> Prison -> Baatazu -> Curst Gone. Whereas FF7's
open-ended section occurs in the end (with the airship), in PST this occurs in the
early-mid game with the Hive & Upper Wards. Same thing, different arrangement.
> The features that made it into PS:T are the good ones. IMHO, these other bad
> features above, definitely outweigh the good. Give credit where credit is due,
> but PS:T is a masterpiece, whereas FF7 is really a sub-par game with a couple
> of nice features.
Like I said, FF7 is a subpar RPG, but a great game. I think PST is a combination
of BG's body and FF's soul. Best of both worlds. And like you said, give credit
where credit is due. Most people don't do this enough.
Elric10041
I'm ravenously enjoying Planescape: Torment at the moment, and it's due in no
small part to what you are saying. I'm a veteran of Sega and Nintendo classics
like Shining Force, and Final Fantasy, and to see a modern CRPG take
inspiration friom those games in amazing.
Those "kiddie-console" RPGS made me care more about the characters and stories,
and kept me playing FAR longer than any CRPG on the PC (I gave up on both
Betrayal at Krondor and RoA: Star Trail)...until Torment, that is.
Way to go, Interplay and Black Isle!
Kenny Smith
Firearm wrote:
> I am so glad I am not the only one thinking that.
>
> There are also other points:
>
> 1. Annah's a melee fighter using her fists; so is Tifa in FF7.
> 2. FFG's a healer; so is Aerith in FF7 (her limit break)
Of course, to people not familiar with FF7 (ie Patrick Mcginley's response to
Firearm's thread), Tifa using fists and Aeris being a healer may not sound
like much of a comparison to PST.
Until they consider that Annah/Tifa is the spunky-romantic-interest
of-the-hero and-uses-fists as-a-primary-weapon type-of-girl, and serves as a
contrast to FFGrace/Aeris character who's the pristine-lady-like
alternate-love-interest for-the-hero and-serves-as-the party-healer type of
girl.
I'm sure we see this kind of relationship between the party leader & two
party members all the time in all CRPGs! Either it's one big coincidence, or
a sign of FF7's influence on PST.
Firearm
so different that I think they should be considered to be in another
gerne altogether.
It's not something everyone can swallow, and it's fine. US/Europe RPGs
aren't that popular in Japan for the same reason: different people,
different taste. It's not like we should start a war just because we
tend to like different RPGs.
Btw, There are people who think Torment's graphics suck too (What is
this ugly guy? I want a teenage cute boy!) That's why we have
different markets.
Me? I enjoy both. Why are we so keen on flaming each other just
because we have different tastes?
Oh, and maybe UT is inspired by the Quake series also... =)
Firearm
On 13 Feb 2000 11:28:01 GMT, tita...@aol.comNOSPAM (TitanMage)
wrotf:
>Well, yes there are some similarities, but be thankful that some other FF
>(specifically FF7, the only one I played) conventions did not make their way
>into PS:T.
>
>1) Dialogue that is weakly translated from another language and very kiddie-ish
>2) Not being able to see enemies before combat
>3) Non-visual inventory system
>4) Save points
>5) Different look for world map vs. locales
>6) Not being able to customize and advance your character to your style/liking
>(role playing)
>7) Very very poor graphics except for combat sequences
>8) No mouse control
>9) No spoken dialogue
>10) Very few side-quests, very linear
>11) Very repetitive combat limited to your three characters against only up to
>five enemies in the same formations over and over
>12) No multiple solutions to waypoints (triggers that advance the plot)
>13) Personally, I don't care for anime (flying pumpkins, penguins, tarzan
>swinging from a vine??)
>
(re)flex
Kenny Smith wrote in message <38A6D091...@nospam.com>...
>
>All of the above are limitations of an obsolete system that's probably the
>equivalent of a Pentium 120 Mhz. I mean, you can't store a lot of
information in
>those little memory cards for the playstation, hence the lack of
customization.
>It's amazing what Squaresoft was able to do with an old system like the
>Playstation. Comparing FF games to PC games is like saying the Nebraska
>Cornhuskers (a good college team) suck because they're not as talented as
the
>Cincinatti Bengals (a horrible NFL team).
A Pentium 120? There isn't even that much parity- PSX has what, a 33mHz
processor and 1MB of RAM? It's only real advantages are A)it has a 3D
accelerator (which presumeably a vanilla P120 wouldn't), and B)when coding
for it, one needn't account for innumerable hardware configurations. I think
these days, most PSX games are coded down to the metal (I know GT was).
Jazar
news:38A5FB7B...@nospam.com...
> snip
Kenny, can you email me? A friend of mine would like to discuss this with
you but he can't get on a news server.
Thanks!
Jazar
ja...@allgaming.com
John Ford.
>1) Dialogue that is weakly translated from another language and very kiddie-ish
This is the series' biggest flaw. Plot twists that are meant to be
astounding and revelatory elicit "Huh?"s most of the time.
>2) Not being able to see enemies before combat
>3) Non-visual inventory system
>4) Save points
>5) Different look for world map vs. locales
>6) Not being able to customize and advance your character to your style/liking
>(role playing)
These are just staples of the console RPG industry, which is derived
from the same D&D legacy PC RPG's have been. I don't feel they are
innate flaws so much as they are just trademarks of a different style.
Computer RPG's have plenty of inexplicable little quirks as well.
>7) Very very poor graphics except for combat sequences
>8) No mouse control
>9) No spoken dialogue
>10) Very few side-quests, very linear
>11) Very repetitive combat limited to your three characters against only up to
>five enemies in the same formations over and over
>12) No multiple solutions to waypoints (triggers that advance the plot)
>13) Personally, I don't care for anime (flying pumpkins, penguins, tarzan
>swinging from a vine??)
For the most part, yes.
>The features that made it into PS:T are the good ones. IMHO, these other bad
>features above, definitely outweigh the good. Give credit where credit is due,
>but PS:T is a masterpiece, whereas FF7 is really a sub-par game with a couple
>of nice features.
I would definitely choose PS:T over any one Final Fantasy game, as far
as the "complete great RPG experience." But you also have to realize
that PS:T is the first computer RPG to do this as well. Until now FF
games have been the only RPG's where plot and atmosphere and emotional
impact are considered as much or more than the gameplay.
Trent
along with your three-line follow-up?
---> Trent, who did feel he had to include the entire post.
Steve Kostoff
This is like the CRPG version of the Kevin Bacon game...
Don't worry, everything that is exists at the universal Point of
Correspondance, so everything is related to everything else, and everything
influences everything else. Pretty cool, eh?
Steve Kostoff
Shawn Gumbleton
--Shawn, who very occasionally remembers to practice what he preaches.
Trent wrote:
>
> I hate to be a bitch, but didja have to include the *entire* posting
> along with your three-line follow-up?
>
> ---> Trent, who did feel he had to include the entire post.
>
> Shawn Gumbleton wrote:
> >
> > I hate to be a bitch, but didja have to include the *entire* posting
> > along with your three-line follow-up?
> >
> > -Shawn
> >
> > Jason McCullough wrote:
<snip>
Brian H.
>
> I hope people
> remember this the next time somebody foolishly dismisses Final Fantasy
> as just another juvenile "console" game.
>
>
Fortunately, Black Isle only adopted the good points of Final Fantasy,
and ditched the bad points from it, precisely:
1. Random & tiresome & relentless & unpredictable monster bashing
jumping from nowhere.
2. You can only save in a certain point.
3. Your main character is always a teen speaking childish dialogues
which add "depth" to the adolescent feel.
4. Exaggerated boss fighting with extremely long period of spell
animations clashing on the screen for nearly an hour.
If PS:T adopted either one of such game designs from FF, I'd happily
pass it over as if what I did for the FF.
--
Brian.
Human beings can send to bh1234...@nospam.please.ctimail.com.
Spammers can send to bh1...@my-deja.com because I never use it.
Bob Byrne
> I hate to be a bitch, but didja have to include the *entire* posting
> along with your three-line follow-up?
>
> -Shawn
And guess who did the same bloody thing!!!!
--
Bob
Led Mirage
wrote:
>I'm sure we see this kind of relationship between the party leader & two
>party members all the time in all CRPGs! Either it's one big coincidence, or
>a sign of FF7's influence on PST.
How many Japanese RPGs have you played? And how many anime have you
watched? It's a very typical Japanese formula (not to say that it's
bad or anything), but it's certainly very common in Japanese culture,
and not limited to a certain game series.
William
For that matter, the Japanese didn't invent love triangles either. It's
a real stretch to say that this aspect of Torment was inspired by the
FF series. There are other points that are much better examples.
Jarno Kaarinen
>--strong focus on personal story & inter-PC relationships, where the
>"epic save-the-world" cliche becomes a mere background. Most RPGs put
>the "epic" in the foreground, and the "personal" becomes an
>afterthought. Hell, off the top of my head, I can't even think of any
>other computer RPG that has ever done this.
Betrayal at Krondor, Ultima 7 and Serpent Isle. Aeris dies in FF7?
Duh, so does Dupre in Serpent Isle.
>--Weapons systems. In Planescape, like in the Final Fantasies, ALL the
>weapons & their upgrades are designed specifically for each PC. Morte
>can only have Teeth Weapons (and vise versa). Dak'kon his Karach
>blade. Axe for Vhailor, arrows for Nordom, and so forth. The only
>exception is that NMO can use some of Annah's gloves. When you find/buy
>a weapon, 99% of the time it can only be used by one specific
>character. This system is most prominent in Final Fantasy games. For
>computer RPGs, it's unheard of.
>
>--Spell Implementation. The first time I saw a mid level offensive
>spell in Planescape, I immediately thought about FF7 & FF8. It's a
>system where *everything* pauses while the screen pans and centers
>around the target to maximize dramatic effect. Then a graphic will show
>up (toxic cloud, call lightning, lighning chain, etc) while everything
>else is frozen. Most other CRPGs do their spell FX in real time.
Huh? No they don't. In CRPGs it is also usually taken in turns.
>Now, let me *emphasize* that any one of the reasons I mentioned above
>could be a simple coincidence. However, taken as a whole, I think it
>clearly shows the influence Final Fantasy had on Planescape. Add to
>that the open admiration of Planescape designers for Final Fantasy (read
>the "Thank You" section of the Planescape manual). I hope people
>remember this the next time somebody foolishly dismisses Final Fantasy
>as just another juvenile "console" game.
What makes them juvenile is that they are too easy. Try Xenogears or
FF8, there's no challenge to be found anywhere. Planescape, on the
other hand, has lots of challenge.
That said, it is quite obvious that Planescape was influences by some
later FF games, FF7 and FF8 particularly. LUCKILY they still avoided
to make the game as easy and rigid as those games. And also you should
remember that Japanese console RPGs owe it to western RPGs anyway,
because Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest were heavily influenced (read:
carbon copies) of early Ultima titles.
Jarno Kaarinen
>I am so glad I am not the only one thinking that.
>
>There are also other points:
>
>1. Annah's a melee fighter using her fists; so is Tifa in FF7.
Not to mention Werg in Wizardy Gold, eh? :-)
>2. FFG's a healer; so is Aerith in FF7 (her limit break)
My priest in Wiz Gold was also a healer. :-)
Zyan
> That said, it is quite obvious that Planescape was influences by some
> later FF games, FF7 and FF8 particularly. LUCKILY they still avoided
> to make the game as easy and rigid as those games. And also you should
> remember that Japanese console RPGs owe it to western RPGs anyway,
> because Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest were heavily influenced (read:
> carbon copies) of early Ultima titles.
>
If the influences are for the better, just acknowledged it and move on.
PST is a good game as it combines the better elements from FF7 and BG.
These make it the ultimate game it is today. True that FF7 has it flaws
(never played FF8) such as save points and repetitive combat (but compared
to MM6, it is really nothing). But hey, at least it does some good. Such
as influencing some designers who are intelligent enough not to copy
everything but just the good stuff. So what do we get? Great story, great
depth and great entertainment. Everybody except the trigger happy folks
(maybe they should play Quake 3 instead?) are happy.
And FF and DQ are NOT carbon copies of Ultima series. They are influenced,
most probably, not sure about that. The DQ series is very much influenced
by PnP AD&D. Not sure about FF. But the interaction, the characters and
details etc, are very much different from Ultima. Guess it has something to
do with culture. Thus they are influenced maybe but definitely not carbon
copies.
BTW, if you asked me, I prefer FF7 over MM6 or MM7 anytime. AND I prefer
PST over FF7 anytime too.
Zyan
Jarno Kaarinen <ja...@remotel.com> wrote in message
news:C7ynOJxXXGbduSBnie=QY0Y...@131.228.6.99...
Huh? What are you implying? Our friend (Firearm) here is trying to compare
the similarities of the love interests of the main protagonist in both
games. I don' t remember Wiz Gold having any love interests in the party.
The whole party was generated by me.
Er, you do understand what Firearm mean, do you?
Jarno Kaarinen
>> 2) Not being able to see enemies before combat
>> 3) Non-visual inventory system
>> 4) Save points
>> 5) Different look for world map vs. locales
>> 6) Not being able to customize and advance your character to your style/liking
>> (role playing)
>> 7) Very very poor graphics except for combat sequences
>> 8) No mouse control
>> 9) No spoken dialogue
>
>All of the above are limitations of an obsolete system that's probably the
>equivalent of a Pentium 120 Mhz. I mean, you can't store a lot of information in
I don't agree at all on points 2, 3, 5 and 6 (9 is irrelevant, because
Planescape doesn't seem to have that much of SPOKEN dialogue either,
due to CD-ROM capacity restrictions + amount of dialogue, something
that is a problem both in PSX and PC CD-ROM RPGs).
Ultima 7/Serpent Isle kind of game should run fine on PSX, and it
already offers many of those points. I think they are in Japanese RPGs
mainly because that is how Japanese RPG developers are accustomed to
doing RPGs. It is a similar reason why so many PC RPGs is set to
medieval world: most PC RPG makers seem to think that is the essence
of RPGs, when it clearly doesn't have to be.
>those little memory cards for the playstation, hence the lack of customization.
I think the memory cards have plenty of room for letting you decide
yourself what kind of party you have.
>It's amazing what Squaresoft was able to do with an old system like the
>Playstation.
Yes, yes, you have a point there. Then again, I wouldn't concentrate
on the graphical issues anyway, because it isn't like the best and
biggest PC RPGs like Fallout 1,2, Baldur's Gate, MM6-7 and Planescape
use any revolutionary graphics system either. Fallout's graphics
system doesn't look that different from years old 2D games like
Diablo, Crusader: No Remorse or Little Big Adventure.
>Comparing FF games to PC games is like saying the Nebraska
>Cornhuskers (a good college team) suck because they're not as talented as the
>Cincinatti Bengals (a horrible NFL team).
I would actually reverse that, if you count how much more MONEY they
poured into making FF8 (or FF7) compared to that measly amount of
money used in making Fallout or Planescape. Just shows that you don't
always have to use millions upon millions of dollars to make one
kickass RPG.
Jarno Kaarinen
>A Pentium 120? There isn't even that much parity- PSX has what, a 33mHz
>processor and 1MB of RAM? It's only real advantages are A)it has a 3D
It has much more than 1MB, more like 3 or so. And it doesn't have to
load Windows nor hardware drivers into memory either.
And comparing MHz of two different processor families is futile, they
can't be compared just like that. Especially (like you said) the other
one also has co-processors that do other tasks. I assume that P120
example didn't include any SB Live and GeForce 256 cards. :-)
Jarno Kaarinen
>>2) Not being able to see enemies before combat
>>3) Non-visual inventory system
>>4) Save points
>>5) Different look for world map vs. locales
>>6) Not being able to customize and advance your character to your style/liking
>>(role playing)
>
>These are just staples of the console RPG industry, which is derived
>from the same D&D legacy PC RPG's have been. I don't feel they are
>innate flaws so much as they are just trademarks of a different style.
I agree. Many of them are simply how Japanese RPG developers are
accustomed to doing these games.
>Computer RPG's have plenty of inexplicable little quirks as well.
For example over-usage of medieval settings.
Jarno Kaarinen
(sheesh, now I am starting to side with FF-people, but anyway I'd
comment:)
Brian H. <bh1...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>Fortunately, Black Isle only adopted the good points of Final Fantasy,
>and ditched the bad points from it, precisely:
>
>1. Random & tiresome & relentless & unpredictable monster bashing
>jumping from nowhere.
You must remember though that this is how many PC RPGs in the past
handleded it. Games like Wasteland and Dragon Wars (I think), Wizardy
7, Bard's Tale, Phantasie etc. I think console RPGs as a whole adopted
this way.
There are also many PC RPGs which let you see enemies before the
encounter, and I think they mostly owe this feature to Ultima series.
I can recall some console RPGs where you could see enemies beforehand
(Secret of Mana/Evermore? Not quite sure), but they were usually
action-RPGs with action combat.
>4. Exaggerated boss fighting with extremely long period of spell
>animations clashing on the screen for nearly an hour.
I think this is the case mostly with FF7 and FF8, not that much other
console RPGs. Xenogears also has some "spell" animations, but they
weren't that long as I recall. I agree Square went way overboard with
that sh*t in FF7 and FF8. Maybe it is some kind of Japanese inside
joke to make simple things excessively long and spectacular. Similar
to all cars in Hollywood movies blowing up upon crashes like
fireballs, or tires always screeching.
Kenny Smith
Jarno Kaarinen wrote:
>
> Betrayal at Krondor, Ultima 7 and Serpent Isle. Aeris dies in FF7?
> Duh, so does Dupre in Serpent Isle.
>
Did we play the same games? U7 had a great storyline, but it was *far* from
being a personal story among your party members. The Avatar maybe, but not
the others. All the other party members had great background story when they
joined you, but never developed much after that point. A lot of cRPGs are
like that (BG, Fallout, etc) Serpent Isle had a few exceptions though, but
far from being in the same league as PST. That said, the ultima games have
great stories. It's just that they're usually very focused on the superhero
saving the world from evils... at least on the ones that I've played (U1 to
U8).
Betrayal of Krondor, though I've never played it, would probably have a good
story. It was written by famed Fantasy novelist Raymond E. Feist... not
exactly a typical occurence in CRPG industry.
>
> Huh? No they don't. In CRPGs it is also usually taken in turns.
>
You missed the point entirely. It wasn't about the spell system... but just
the graphics *effects* in FF games. Typical CRPGs don't spend 30-45 seconds
to focus & dramatize a single spell with cutscenes. If you still don't
believe me, read the "interview part I" with the PST designers and they
explain how they got that technique from Final Fantasy. There's a link from
www.planescape-torment.net's news section. Kenneth Lee said he wanted to
make spells in Planescape "more of a major event" like in FF7&8, not the
mundane spell systems found in all other CRPGs.
>
> What makes them juvenile is that they are too easy. Try Xenogears or
> FF8, there's no challenge to be found anywhere. Planescape, on the
> other hand, has lots of challenge.
What's your point? I never claimed FF games were superior to Planescape or
Ultimas or any other CRPGs. I said FF games were great games (but not great
RPGs). The difficulty has nothing to do with a game's quality (ever played
The Last Express by John Mechner?). I judge games by their enjoyment factor,
and the FF games were damn fun to play. Playing an FF game, to me, is more
like playing an adventure game with novice RPG overtones. FF games are
played for their intricate storyline & tongue-in-cheek humor, *not* for the
rolls you get from yet another 4D6 dice...
>
> to make the game as easy and rigid as those games. And also you should
> remember that Japanese console RPGs owe it to western RPGs anyway,
> because Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest were heavily influenced (read:
> carbon copies) of early Ultima titles.
So because Japanese RPGs were inspired by Western AD&D games in the '80s, it
makes it OK to summarily dismiss these console RPGs as badly-made moronic
child's play, & simultaneously taking inspiration from their creative
design? Makes perfect sense. Very fair. That's kinda like an ungrateful
dog biting the hand that feeds it.
Kenny Smith
Jarno Kaarinen wrote:
>
> >those little memory cards for the playstation, hence the lack of customization.
>
> I think the memory cards have plenty of room for letting you decide
> yourself what kind of party you have.
>
What are you talking about?? You *can* customize your party in FF games. Who you're
with, what they're equipped with, and so forth. Have you played FF7 or FF8 at all?
Hell, the materia & junction systems for FF7 & FF8 are so convoluted that some critics
actually consider them as too complicated for the general public. As a veteran of
cRPGs from the '80s, I was still using FF8's Junction tutorial after some 20-hours of
gameplay. I'd say that the materia & junction system bring more customization to
arming single FF party than both Ultima7 and PS:T parties combined. In FF7&8, you
don't pick up magic weapons. You *customize* your weapons to give them magical
properties. There are literally thousands of combinations.
The problem with memory cards is the inability to customize the gameworld. Take a
look at how much memory a PST, U7, U9, or Fallout game takes up. Not even a fraction
of one saved game into a memory card, much less multiple saved games in one card.
Console games had to cut corners, so there's very little customization that happens
outside the party.
>
> I would actually reverse that, if you count how much more MONEY they
> poured into making FF8 (or FF7) compared to that measly amount of
> money used in making Fallout or Planescape. Just shows that you don't
> always have to use millions upon millions of dollars to make one
> kickass RPG.
You can spend $1 trillion dollars on developing a PSX game, but it still wouldn't
compare to a Pentium II 450mhz system with a 3D card. But I digress... the point is,
you've got no business comparing graphics & sound from a $99 console system designed
in 1994, to a $1500 computer system from 1997-2000.
Eric Ashcroft aka The Ancient One
wrote:
excellent post. that愀 why i liked PS:T so much :-)
.. no really... i didn愒 realize the many similarities... and i like
PS:T as well as the FF games.. no wonder :)
Eric Ashcroft aka The Ancient One
The Ancient One愀 Wallpaper Site
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~ancient/
--------
Iron walls and chains surround us
Yet we are proud and free
Nothing kills the ties that bind us
I惻l meet you at the Gate Of Kings...
- David DeFeis
Eric Ashcroft aka The Ancient One
<blort...@ou.edu> wrote:
please don“t start another "DIABLO is no RPG", "FF8 is no RPG" thread.
this has been discussed 100 times.
Eric Ashcroft aka The Ancient One
The Ancient One“s Wallpaper Site
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~ancient/
--------
Iron walls and chains surround us
Yet we are proud and free
Nothing kills the ties that bind us
I“ll meet you at the Gate Of Kings...
- David DeFeis
Eric Ashcroft aka The Ancient One
LOL
Eric
Jarno Kaarinen
>Jarno Kaarinen wrote:
>
>> Betrayal at Krondor, Ultima 7 and Serpent Isle. Aeris dies in FF7?
>> Duh, so does Dupre in Serpent Isle.
>
>Did we play the same games? U7 had a great storyline, but it was *far* from
>being a personal story among your party members. The Avatar maybe, but not
>the others. All the other party members had great background story when they
>joined you, but never developed much after that point. A lot of cRPGs are
Then we apparently didn't play the same games. I recall for example
this certain ghost in Serpent Isle which was the wife of one of the
party members.
>> What makes them juvenile is that they are too easy. Try Xenogears or
>> FF8, there's no challenge to be found anywhere. Planescape, on the
>> other hand, has lots of challenge.
>
>What's your point?
Explaining why some may still find FF games juvenile but not PST.
Jochen Heistermann
Silke (Snowball) schrieb in Nachricht
<38a60f0a$0$23...@motown.iinet.net.au>...
>You have got to be kidding! The plot may be linear, but there are dozens of
>side quests, which have been given much thought, especially in 7. In fact,
I
>would consider there is much more freedom in FF7 than PST, however, they
are
>both two of my favorite RPGs of all time.
>
Both games have a linear plot with LOTS of side quests. Nevertheless FF7
felt
more free for me, I just walked around and had fun for some time.
The main difference is that I played FF7 with my 6 year old daughter and she
is
afraid of the PT figures (ghosts, zombies) - she likes things that are
"beautiful".
Jochen
Steve Kostoff
Kenny Smith wrote in message <38A6CA82...@nospam.com>...
>Let me guess... you've never played a single Final Fantasy game in its
>entirety, have you? Maybe read a few things about it, or played a couple
of
>hours? Your post feels like a typical response from somebody like that.
>
>Your sarcasm is humorous, but severely misguided. There's very little
actual
>content in your otherwise long post. Don't criticize anything you know very
>little about (my post, or the Final Fantasy series) unless you can support
it
>with solid arguments.
Misguided sarcasm? I think his point was to lampoon your originial post,
which he achieved.
> The Final Fantasy games are great games, but not *great* rpgs by the
standard
>definition of rpgs. In fact, it's probably closer to an Adventure game
>running an RPG engine. I seem to recall Planescape:Torment being described
by
>many reviewers in a very similar (though more favorable) way.
Actually, that was one reviewer, and he's a weenie.
Steve Kostoff
(re)flex
Jarno Kaarinen wrote in message ...
>It has much more than 1MB, more like 3 or so. And it doesn't have to
>load Windows nor hardware drivers into memory either.
True on the latter point (It is listed as having 256K of OS ROM). However,
I'm pretty certain that it only has 1MB of RAM, because I remember when it
and the Saturn came out and the two were compared, the Saturn had slightly
more RAM (but a lower clock speed on its CPU-26mHz, although it had two CPUs
running in parallel). However, I'm not counting the additional RAM on the
Sound card and on the Graphics card.
Kenny Smith
William wrote:
>
> For that matter, the Japanese didn't invent love triangles either. It's
> a real stretch to say that this aspect of Torment was inspired by the
> FF series. There are other points that are much better examples.
>
>
True, but how many times do you see a love triangle (anime or not anime)
that involves a semi-amnesiac hero, a spunky fist-fighting party member,
and a lady-like party healer? Once every 693,000 love triangles? Oh wait,
it's Twice every 693,000 love triangles, because there's Torment & FF7.
Quite a coincidence, huh?
Kenny Smith
Steve Kostoff wrote:
>
> Misguided sarcasm? I think his point was to lampoon your originial post,
> which he achieved.
>
>
Patrick Mcginley's sarcastic post was a reply to firebird's message, not mine.
He was lampooning the fact that firebird said "Annah & Tifa are both
fist-fighters", and that "Aeris & FFGrace are both healers". To somebody who
never played FF7 (such as yourself, perhaps?), these comparisons seem like quite
a stretch.
If you've played FF7, then you notice that the hero Cloud tries to recover his
past through flashbacks & a merging to 3 versions of himself, all the while
having the option of choosing a romantic interest between a fist-fighting spunky
girl Tifa or the lady-like healer Aeris. Now, subsitute the names PST, NMO,
Annah, and Grace for the names FF7, Cloud, Tifa, Aeris and this entire paragraph
would still be 100% true. How often do you see an amnesiac hero with a choice
of romantic interests between the lady-like party healer & a fist fighting
spunky party member? Twice for every 821 RPGs? This was the "coincidence" that
Patrick Mcginley was lampooning in his post because he didn't know all the
facts. I'd call that misguided.
Frankly, I don't see why *you* refuse to see FF7 & FF8's influences on PST.
Denial, perhaps? Not willing to admit a great AD&D game actually borrows a few
ideas from a console game? The PST designers already give credit where it's due
(both in interviews & in the PST manual)... what more would it take?
Admittedly, a few of the similarities are quite a stretch, but too many
"coincidences" (along with PST designers' statements) make up a pattern. I'd
say the similarities are a sign of FF's influence.
Steve Kostoff
Kenny Smith <KSm...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:38A8B300...@nospam.com...
> Most of the people that found the original post interesting have played
through
> both FF7 and Planescape:Torment (an inference based on the factual content
of
> their responses). On the other hand, I find it amusing that most the
people
> that mocked my post never played through FF7. Valid negative criticisms
of my
> post (& there was one), I would welcome. Uninformed criticisms like
yours, I
> would not.
>
> You see, when a person has actually played through both games before
comparing
> them, they make better & unbiased comparisons! Whoa, a shocking
revelation,
> indeed. A very novel and intriguing concept, huh? You can learn this
useful
> concept, and many others like it, by reading a helpful book called "Common
> Sense" at your local public library.
So... where did you read that I never played FF7? Eh?
Steve Kostoff
Jonathan K. Lee
I would like to point out that all the similarities (whether they are
coincidences or not), are trivial. They hardly make a game or break a game.
To say because Lim-Lims are similar to moogles is like saying "I like toast."
-- So what? and who cares?
> >--Storyline. (possible minor spoilers). In both FF7 & Planescape, we
> >have heroes that slowly discover their past through mysterious
> >flashbacks. There's even a scene in both games where the hero meets 3
> >versions of himself, each representing a different side to his psyche.
> >Then there's the possible merging of the 3 parts to create a whole.
> >There's also the romantic aspect of the story. In both FF7 &
> >Planescape, the player controls the hero's romantic involvement with
> >either the brash, spunky girl (Annah, Tifa) or the pristine, lady-like
> >woman (FF-Grace, Aeris). Then there's also the part in FF8 & Planescape
> >where the hero (NMO, Squall) slowly discover that most of the companions
> >he picked up have a forgotten history/relationship with him.
The planescape amesia story does not come from FF7. Here is a quote from RPG
Vault Planescape: Torment Special Report, Part 1:
“On the Nameless One and his whole series of problems, there are two
influences that made him who he was,” says Chris Avellone when asked how the
character came to be. “The biggest one was Roger Zelazny, who is the king of
amnesiac characters coming into their own in a strange new world, which I’ve
thought is one of the best ways to introduce a game or a book - the player
and the character start on the same page. The second influence was this space
campaign I was working on in college and never got around to running, though
I did a lot of preparation work for it. All the characters started out in a
derelict space ship, waking up from their bunks with no idea who they were or
what they were doing there - and over the course of the campaign - it was
only going to be three to five nights - they would have to research
themselves on the ship’s computers, their medical records, and basically try
to puzzle out who they are, what they’re doing there, and why they are the
only survivors in the vessel.”
As for the coincidence with the resurfacing memories? Here's another thing
from the same article:
“To stay true to the genre, we also had to show the actual physical and
political nature of Planescape itself,” states Avellone, “including the
geography of the planes and the factions and power struggles between the
various philosophies. The greatest challenge became communicating this huge
amount of information to the player; unfortunately, it’s almost impossible to
convey the full scope of Planescape to a new player - and to assume he’s
supposed to start the game knowing everything about Planescape is too much to
expect.”
“We kicked around some ideas, and finally came to the conclusion that it
would make the game experience stronger if the player and the player
character explored the world *together* - the player and his character would
be starting on the same page, and both of them would slowly learn about the
strange new world they’d found themselves in,” he declares. “To reinforce the
bond, we gave the player character no memories at all, and no knowledge of
the Planescape setting.”
> I hope people
> >remember this the next time somebody foolishly dismisses Final Fantasy
> >as just another juvenile "console" game.
Just because two games have some similarities, or common background doesn't
equate to a good game. For example, the writing in FF8 was not very good.
The transition from disc 2 - disc 3 did not work at all. All of a sudden,
Squall loves Rinoa? You could act like the asshole the entire tiime, but all
of a sudden, you can't be w/o her? How about time compression? What? Why?
When? Who? How? I don't think the game seriously answers those questions.
What about the orphanage? That was a killer. Where did they pull that one
out of?
Now, I don't think the FF titles are bad games. They certainly aren't what
some people equate them to be.
Brian H.
>
> You must remember though that this is how many PC RPGs in the past
> handleded it. Games like Wasteland and Dragon Wars (I think), Wizardy
> 7, Bard's Tale, Phantasie etc. I think console RPGs as a whole adopted
> this way.
>
> There are also many PC RPGs which let you see enemies before the
> encounter, and I think they mostly owe this feature to Ultima series.
>
> I can recall some console RPGs where you could see enemies beforehand
> (Secret of Mana/Evermore? Not quite sure), but they were usually
> action-RPGs with action combat.
>
Hey, I mentioned only FF in my post. Why did you bring up all these old
stuff? And somehow your points only show that what a cliche of the FF
series is. There are almost no western contemporary CRPGs utilize such
combat scheme anymore. However, those Japanese CRPGs still stick with
such combat scheme. And to me, they are disgusting.
>
> I think this is the case mostly with FF7 and FF8, not that much other
> console RPGs. Xenogears also has some "spell" animations, but they
> weren't that long as I recall. I agree Square went way overboard with
> that sh*t in FF7 and FF8. Maybe it is some kind of Japanese inside
> joke to make simple things excessively long and spectacular. Similar
> to all cars in Hollywood movies blowing up upon crashes like
> fireballs, or tires always screeching.
>
>
I wouldn't care about FF. I wouldn't care about any of those Jap
CRPGs. I would try them if I feel good at them but so far I find none
of them appeal to me. I care only the design teams behind PS:T. I'm
afraid that they will bring up those nasty designs from FF in the
future versions of the RPGs they create. PS:T adopted good points from
FF and it's good. And better still, they ditched the worst things from
FF and didn't bring them to PS:T. I hope they'll keep doing this.
--
Brian.
Human beings can send to bh1234...@nospam.please.ctimail.com.
Spammers can send to bh1...@my-deja.com because I never use it.
L.J. Wischik
>True, but how many times do you see a love triangle (anime or not anime)
>that involves a semi-amnesiac hero, a spunky fist-fighting party member,
>and a lady-like party healer? Once every 693,000 love triangles? Oh wait,
>it's Twice every 693,000 love triangles, because there's Torment & FF7.
Once you've gone down the semi-amnesiac route (a common one, despite what
you suggest), and once you've set it within a D&D setting, then I'd say
once every 10.
--
Lucian Wischik, Queens' College, Cambridge CB3 9ET. www.wischik.com/lu
K. Laisathit
Kenny Smith <ksm...@nospam.com> wrote:
>A lot of people probably don't realize just how much influence Final
>Fantasy has had on the design of Planescape:Torment.
[snip]
>the "Thank You" section of the Planescape manual). I hope people
>remember this the next time somebody foolishly dismisses Final Fantasy
>as just another juvenile "console" game.
So, you're saying that because PST is such a great game and
it does trace certain part of its origin to FF, FF is
automatically a great game?
I'm not arguing that there is no similarity between PST and
FF. Heck, I'm not blind. I read the manual and I know that
one of the designers credits FF for the inspiration. But that
doesn't make FF a better game in my eyes.
The biggest sore point of FF has nothing to do with linearity,
but an utter lack of volition. You go through the mindless
motion of killing mobs on the way to the next boss and the next.
Until you reach the end. You don't even need to think. Yeah,
writing and presentation can be evocative. But the point is
that there is only one way to play the game.
Squall (or whatizhisname) in the latest FF8 is supposed to
be a self-centered hardass bastard. But what do I do if I
don't want to be that bastard? What PST did was giving me
a game where I can be what I choose my avatar to be. True,
there isn't much causality and choices when it comes to
story line. But along the way, I can choose to do a great
many things. Most important of all, I get to choose how I
treat my companion. Just think about the decision you have
to make at the Pillar of Skull.
Do I thrust Morte despite his protest back into the pillar
to get what I want? Do I sacrifice myself to achieve the
same objective? Do I betray Fjull after all his help, even
if his help is coerced out of him instead of given freely?
Just about everyone stops and stares at all the unpalatable
choices and arrives at a decision. Granted, somehow or rather,
you'll get through PoS. But what matters more is how not what.
In the console type game, you don't get to choose how and
that's what bugs me. If you want to tell a good story, you
can't really avoid linearity. It's hard enough to write
a single good story, let alone a good story that has many
branching paths. We accept it, but that doesn't mean we
have to be deprived of all volition when we play the game.
Without volition, I might as well be watching a rent movie.
Later...
Peter Seebach
Kenny Smith <KSm...@nospam.com> wrote:
>Let me guess... you've never played a single Final Fantasy game in its
>entirety, have you? Maybe read a few things about it, or played a couple of
>hours? Your post feels like a typical response from somebody like that.
I've never been able to stand them long enough. I made it a fair ways through
one of the SNES ones. FF7, I got out of the city and was too tired to
continue.
-s
--
Copyright 2000, All rights reserved. Peter Seebach / se...@plethora.net
C/Unix wizard, Pro-commerce radical, Spam fighter. Boycott Spamazon!
Consulting & Computers: http://www.plethora.net/
Get paid to surf! No spam. http://www.alladvantage.com/go.asp?refid=GZX636
Peter Seebach
John Ford. <sain...@hot.mail.com> wrote:
>On Sun, 13 Feb 2000 01:14:28 GMT, Jason McCullough
><blort...@ou.edu> wrote:
>
>>reports VIII, however, are straight-line adventure game crap. They
>>aren't RPGs.
>
>Yeah, you're right. All that 40-hours of combat I struggled through
>plus another dozen or so hours of item collecting to beat those Weapon
>guys was actually an elaborate hallucination. My friends tell me I was
>actually just clicking the circle button to read signposts for several
>days.
Did it affect the plot?
Not really.
William
kir...@u.washington.edu (K. Laisathit) wrote:
> In article <38A5FB7B...@nospam.com>,
> Kenny Smith <ksm...@nospam.com> wrote:
(snip)
> In the console type game, you don't get to choose how and
> that's what bugs me. If you want to tell a good story, you
> can't really avoid linearity. It's hard enough to write
> a single good story, let alone a good story that has many
> branching paths. We accept it, but that doesn't mean we
> have to be deprived of all volition when we play the game.
> Without volition, I might as well be watching a rent movie.
That's a very good point, and IMO the biggest flaw of the FF series. I
recall reading a review of the PC version of FF8 and it said
(paraphrased) "You can't help but get the feeling that this game would
be a lot better if you could just watch it instead of playing it." When
I played FF7&8, I had the distinct feeling that I was just watching and
not playing. The only thing I really seemed to have any control over
was the battles.
But, I think that a lot of PC CRPGs have the same problem, it just
isn't as obvious because there isn't as much character development. The
FF games have tons of character development, it's just that the player
doesn't have any control over any of it. Many PC games have little or
no character development, such as the Wizardry series, the M&M series,
or BG (BG was a bit better in that department than Wizardry or M&M, but
it still had very little character development). PS:T is really a first
for a PC game in the characterization department.
So far the choice has been between PC games, with no character
development at all, and console games, with character development the
player doesn't control. Hopefully we'll see more games like Torment so
that these won't be the only choices out there anymore.
John Ford.
<jk...@uclink4.berkeley.edu> wrote:
>The planescape amesia story does not come from FF7. Here is a quote from RPG
>Vault Planescape: Torment Special Report, Part 1:
[SNIP]
Very insightful, but surely you realize that an author's stated
motivations for something are very often not the only motivations.
Granted, amnesia is a VERY common plot gimmick in videogames (perhaps
too common) but the fact that Chris Avellone explains his primary
reasoning behind the script does not eliminate the possibility he was
influenced by something else. Sometimes influences show up in a work
almost without the artists' awareness.
The similarities between The Nameless One and Cloud from FF7 are not
insignificant. Nobody wants to detract from Planescape: Torment or
insinuate that it's some kind of talentless knock-off. I personally
believe it handled the plot twists it shared with FF7 better than FF7
did.
Perhaps Chris himself could elaborate on this...?
>All of a sudden,
>Squall loves Rinoa? You could act like the asshole the entire tiime, but all
>of a sudden, you can't be w/o her? How about time compression? What? Why?
>When? Who? How? I don't think the game seriously answers those questions.
>What about the orphanage? That was a killer. Where did they pull that one
>out of?
I could go on at length about this, but I'll settle for a general
statement. Every plot element in FF8 is developed before it occurs,
and most of the time it is foreshadowed in multiple places. There is a
lot of background information that you will not understand by simply
running through the game on automatic pilot. You have to dig a bit
deeper to find out everything.
Whether this is a good technique or not I cannot decide.
>Now, I don't think the FF titles are bad games. They certainly aren't what
>some people equate them to be.
Until Torment, they are the best examples of a scripted, linear
plotline in a role-playing game.
Led Mirage
wrote:
>Most of the people that found the original post interesting have played through
>both FF7 and Planescape:Torment (an inference based on the factual content of
>their responses). On the other hand, I find it amusing that most the people
>that mocked my post never played through FF7. Valid negative criticisms of my
>post (& there was one), I would welcome. Uninformed criticisms like yours, I
>would not.
>
>You see, when a person has actually played through both games before comparing
>them, they make better & unbiased comparisons! Whoa, a shocking revelation,
>indeed. A very novel and intriguing concept, huh? You can learn this useful
>concept, and many others like it, by reading a helpful book called "Common
>Sense" at your local public library.
I think what Steve was trying to say is that this kind of thing
happens all the time. *It's no big deal*. Akira Kurusugawa made films
based on Shakespeare's plays. Hollywood filmmakers in turn made movies
based on Kurusugawa's movies. It's not such a big deal, really. And no
need to get defensive about it, either.
Led Mirage
wrote:
>For that matter, the Japanese didn't invent love triangles either. It's
>a real stretch to say that this aspect of Torment was inspired by the
>FF series. There are other points that are much better examples.
It's pretty tough to claim that when the developers themselves
admitted that FF7&8 had "inspired" them. It's not unusual that game
developers played other people's games, love them and incorporated
what they loved about them. But what I don't understnd is that why
some peolpe have this attitude that if a CRPG is developered for the
console, then it MUST be inferior. Sure there are great CRPGs made
over the years, but for every one of them, there are at least 4, 5
so-so ones and more are crap. Some claim that Japanese RPGs have too
much combat, yet these people would play a M&M game for the umteenth
time claiming that's what they like about the series.
Jonathan K. Lee
> motivations for something are very often not the only motivations.
> Granted, amnesia is a VERY common plot gimmick in videogames (perhaps
> too common) but the fact that Chris Avellone explains his primary
> reasoning behind the script does not eliminate the possibility he was
> influenced by something else. Sometimes influences show up in a work
> almost without the artists' awareness.
I'm not saying that he was. I just think that information can lead to conclusions
regarding more of a coincidence, than direct influence.
> The similarities between The Nameless One and Cloud from FF7 are not
> insignificant. Nobody wants to detract from Planescape: Torment or
> insinuate that it's some kind of talentless knock-off. I personally
> believe it handled the plot twists it shared with FF7 better than FF7
> did.
I'm sorry if I didn't make it clear, but I was refering to the non-plotline junk
as trivial.
> >All of a sudden,
> >Squall loves Rinoa? You could act like the asshole the entire tiime, but all
> >of a sudden, you can't be w/o her? How about time compression? What? Why?
> >When? Who? How? I don't think the game seriously answers those questions.
> >What about the orphanage? That was a killer. Where did they pull that one
> >out of?
>
> I could go on at length about this, but I'll settle for a general
> statement. Every plot element in FF8 is developed before it occurs,
> and most of the time it is foreshadowed in multiple places. There is a
> lot of background information that you will not understand by simply
> running through the game on automatic pilot. You have to dig a bit
> deeper to find out everything.
>
> Whether this is a good technique or not I cannot decide.
I'm sorry if I think the story wasn't that good . Please, enlighten me to these
fore shadows. Enlighten me to a few questions:
1) Why is Laguna such a deadbeat father?
2) Time Compression: Who, what, when, where, how, and most importantly WHY?
3) I played the game just ignoring Rinoa; why the sudden change in attitude from
disc 2 - 3?
4) Explain the purpose of the Flashbacks? You do nothing. Later you know you
can't change the past, yet you still get sent back.
> Until Torment, they are the best examples of a scripted, linear
> plotline in a role-playing game.
Perhaps...
Eric Ashcroft aka The Ancient One
wrote:
>I've never been able to stand them long enough. I made it a fair ways through
>one of the SNES ones. FF7, I got out of the city and was too tired to
>continue.
>
>-s
that´s when the real game starts. the first 20 hours or so in the city
are only an introduction. that´s what many people can´t believe hehe
Eric
Knight37
>I don't have a Thank you section in my Planescape manual (UK) is
>this another example of where the UK operation has cut back. In BG
>they missed out the Cloth Map that the US version had.
I didn't get a cloth map in my US version of Baldur's Gate. I got a
poster map, though.
--
Knight37
"When a man lies he murders some part of the world.
These are the pale deaths which men miscall their lives.
All this I cannot bear to witness any longer.
Cannot the kingdom of salvation take me home?"
-- Metallica "To Live Is To Die"
Jason McCullough
>
>Jarno Kaarinen wrote:
>
>>
>> >those little memory cards for the playstation, hence the lack of customization.
>>
>> I think the memory cards have plenty of room for letting you decide
>> yourself what kind of party you have.
>>
>
>What are you talking about?? You *can* customize your party in FF games. Who you're
>with, what they're equipped with, and so forth. Have you played FF7 or FF8 at all?
>Hell, the materia & junction systems for FF7 & FF8 are so convoluted that some critics
>actually consider them as too complicated for the general public. As a veteran of
>cRPGs from the '80s, I was still using FF8's Junction tutorial after some 20-hours of
>gameplay. I'd say that the materia & junction system bring more customization to
>arming single FF party than both Ultima7 and PS:T parties combined. In FF7&8, you
>don't pick up magic weapons. You *customize* your weapons to give them magical
>properties. There are literally thousands of combinations.
>
You know, this is one of the biggest problems I have with console
RPGs. Lately, the only difficult thing in them seems to be.....the
engine. That's right, the item-building engine, instead of say,
combat, figuring out puzzles, or what have you.
How much goddamn skill or thought does it take to play an easy game
when you have the 40 page guide to the silly item creation system in
front of you? For that matter, even if you're *writing* the guide,
how much skill or thought does this take? It's nothing more than a
way to increase the perceived "difficulty" of the game, while
protecting the sales numbers. Any idiot can finish it, but those who
want can pretend it makes them very, very smart that they were able to
do so.
Stimulus, response. Stimulus, response. Cheese!
To respond by email, remove "blort" from the front of my email
address.
blort...@ou.edu
Jason McCullough
".....to identify Flavor Flav as a clown with a clock is to lose sight
of Public Enemy's goal to inspire, entertain and educate."
(from www.public-enemy.com)
Jason McCullough
>along with your three-line follow-up?
>
>-Shawn
>
>>
>> >A lot of people probably don't realize just how much influence Final
>> >talking about the closed-minded people who easily dismiss the Final
>> >Fantasy series because of its console roots, all the while singing
>> >praises of a great CRPG like Torment.
>> >
>> >At first I thought I was imagining things while playing Torment ---
>> >drawing parallels between an AD&D game and Final Fantasy games. But
>> >after having read a few articles from the Torment designers openly
>> >praising Final Fantasy, I'm more convinced than ever. Some of Final
>> >Fantasy's influence include:
>> >
>> >--strong focus on personal story & inter-PC relationships, where the
>> >"epic save-the-world" cliche becomes a mere background. Most RPGs put
>> >the "epic" in the foreground, and the "personal" becomes an
>> >afterthought. Hell, off the top of my head, I can't even think of any
>> >other computer RPG that has ever done this.
>> >
>> >--Weapons systems. In Planescape, like in the Final Fantasies, ALL the
>> >weapons & their upgrades are designed specifically for each PC. Morte
>> >can only have Teeth Weapons (and vise versa). Dak'kon his Karach
>> >blade. Axe for Vhailor, arrows for Nordom, and so forth. The only
>> >exception is that NMO can use some of Annah's gloves. When you find/buy
>> >a weapon, 99% of the time it can only be used by one specific
>> >character. This system is most prominent in Final Fantasy games. For
>> >computer RPGs, it's unheard of.
>> >
>> >--Spell Implementation. The first time I saw a mid level offensive
>> >spell in Planescape, I immediately thought about FF7 & FF8. It's a
>> >system where *everything* pauses while the screen pans and centers
>> >around the target to maximize dramatic effect. Then a graphic will show
>> >up (toxic cloud, call lightning, lighning chain, etc) while everything
>> >else is frozen. Most other CRPGs do their spell FX in real time.
>> >Further, high-level Planescape spells actually go as far as showing cut
>> >scenes (or movies), such panning the screen to a scene in space for
>> >Meteorite summons, or any of Planescape FMV summon sequences. I
>> >could've sworn I was playing a Final Fantasy game. The system employed
>> >by Planescape is *exactly* the same as the one used for spells/summons
>> >in FF7 & FF8. The designer Kenneth Lee openly credited Final Fantasy
>> >for his inspiration for this system.
>> >
>> >--Storyline. (possible minor spoilers). In both FF7 & Planescape, we
>> >have heroes that slowly discover their past through mysterious
>> >flashbacks. There's even a scene in both games where the hero meets 3
>> >versions of himself, each representing a different side to his psyche.
>> >Then there's the possible merging of the 3 parts to create a whole.
>> >There's also the romantic aspect of the story. In both FF7 &
>> >Planescape, the player controls the hero's romantic involvement with
>> >either the brash, spunky girl (Annah, Tifa) or the pristine, lady-like
>> >woman (FF-Grace, Aeris). Then there's also the part in FF8 & Planescape
>> >where the hero (NMO, Squall) slowly discover that most of the companions
>> >he picked up have a forgotten history/relationship with him.
>> >
>> >Fantasyish way. Armor for Planescape women are bought at tailors, which
>> >reminded me of the cheesy "dresses" for Final Fantasy women's armor. I
>> >already mentioned the PC-specific weaponry, and the PC's forgotten
>> >history with the main hero. They also created unique music for each PC,
>> >which is a trademark of Final Fantasy games since FF2. Off the top of
>> >my head, I can't think of any other Computer RPG that has ever done this
>> >for every player-character. There's also the heavy focus on optional
>> >background storyline for every PC you pick up. Most CRPGs give you the
>> >PC's background story *when* you meet them, but it's forgotten/neglected
>> >soon afterwards. Occasionally you'll have one or two PCs with optional
>> >storyline that appears in mid-game (ie Coran's lover in BG, Iolo's wife
>> >in UltimaV). In Planescape & FF games, this is true for nearly *all*
>> >members of your party. Additionally, the background storyline for every
>> >PC is stretched out & developed over the course of the game. In fact,
>> >I'd say that the backbone of the Planescape story is in the character
>> >development of your party members. The "epic" part of the story becomes
>> >background to that.
>> >
>> >--Those Lim-lims remind me of those Moogles from FFIII (usa). Cute
>> >little creatures with the potential to be lethal, and can only quip
>> >"Pi-Yo!". Moogles served the exact same purpose in FFIII, except they
>> >quipped "Ku-Po!"
>> >
>> >--Hero development. In FF7 & FF8, the heroes (Cloud, Squall) usually
>> >have twice as much experience points as their party members. This
>> >effectively makes the hero the strongest character due to his high level
>> >& experience (as opposed to special powers). NMO is the same way
>> >relative to his companions.
>> >
>> >Now, let me *emphasize* that any one of the reasons I mentioned above
>> >could be a simple coincidence. However, taken as a whole, I think it
>> >clearly shows the influence Final Fantasy had on Planescape. Add to
>> >that the open admiration of Planescape designers for Final Fantasy (read
>> >the "Thank You" section of the Planescape manual). I hope people
>> >remember this the next time somebody foolishly dismisses Final Fantasy
>> >as just another juvenile "console" game.
>>
>> reports VIII, however, are straight-line adventure game crap. They
>> aren't RPGs.
>>
>> address.
>> blort...@ou.edu
>> Jason McCullough
>>
>> ".....to identify Flavor Flav as a clown with a clock is to lose sight
>> of Public Enemy's goal to inspire, entertain and educate."
>> (from www.public-enemy.com)
Yes.
TitanMage
reasons why:
- Morte & Barret (Garret?). Both trash talking bashers, and if you take the
vowels out of Morte, you're left with MrT. We all know that Barret is the
spitting image of Mr. T.
- Annah is a TIFA-ling.
imp
Annah is a tiefling, a term coined when Planescape was created. It has nothing
to do with FF and was not created by the makers of Torment. >:)
imp
>:)
Peter Seebach
Eric Ashcroft aka The Ancient One <ancie...@cyberdude.com> wrote:
>that´s when the real game starts. the first 20 hours or so in the city
>are only an introduction. that´s what many people can´t believe hehe
Yeah, but I ran around doing things, at it looked like I just had to spend
hours doing stupid things, playing some kind of battle sim tabletop game,
collecting money, and so on. Boring.
Raffael Lichtenberger
wrote:
>In article <38a9247e...@news.wiesbaden.netsurf.de>,
>Eric Ashcroft aka The Ancient One <ancie...@cyberdude.com> wrote:
>>that´s when the real game starts. the first 20 hours or so in the city
>>are only an introduction. that´s what many people can´t believe hehe
>
>Yeah, but I ran around doing things, at it looked like I just had to spend
>hours doing stupid things, playing some kind of battle sim tabletop game,
>collecting money, and so on. Boring.
You know, in most RPGs you spend your time with battles, collecting
money and doing things. Where's the problem?
Raffael
--
Die einzige Konstante im Universum
ist die Dummheit der Menschen.
Steve Kostoff
Miles Osborne
UK version didn't.
In article <8EDB6879Fknigh...@209.30.0.14>, Knight37
<knig...@gamespotmail.com> writes
>new...@mados.demon.co.uk (Miles Osborne) wrote:
>
>>I don't have a Thank you section in my Planescape manual (UK) is
>>this another example of where the UK operation has cut back. In BG
>>they missed out the Cloth Map that the US version had.
>
>I didn't get a cloth map in my US version of Baldur's Gate. I got a
>poster map, though.
>
--
Miles Osborne mailto:m...@mados.demon.co.uk
Southampton
UK UIN: 29637931
Shawn Gumbleton
Oh. :)
Chris Avellone
"John Ford." wrote:
> On Mon, 14 Feb 2000 22:32:20 -0800, "Jonathan K. Lee"
> <jk...@uclink4.berkeley.edu> wrote:
>
> >The planescape amesia story does not come from FF7. Here is a quote from RPG
> >Vault Planescape: Torment Special Report, Part 1:
>
> [SNIP]
>
> Very insightful, but surely you realize that an author's stated
> motivations for something are very often not the only motivations.
> Granted, amnesia is a VERY common plot gimmick in videogames (perhaps
> too common) but the fact that Chris Avellone explains his primary
> reasoning behind the script does not eliminate the possibility he was
> influenced by something else. Sometimes influences show up in a work
> almost without the artists' awareness.
>
> The similarities between The Nameless One and Cloud from FF7 are not
> insignificant. Nobody wants to detract from Planescape: Torment or
> insinuate that it's some kind of talentless knock-off. I personally
> believe it handled the plot twists it shared with FF7 better than FF7
> did.
>
> Perhaps Chris himself could elaborate on this...?
>
*Slight spoilers*
I have played FF7 (and loved it), and I think the influences it had on PST was
the spells (which Ken Lee designed, and did a damn good job), and the fact that
each type of player character would stick with one 'type' of weapon based on their
personality or their personal preference.
As for the amnesia, Annah and Grace/Tifa and Aeris, as well as the three
incarnations at the end -- I assure you that was not based on FF7. The amnesia was
a plot device that seemed new to me (at the time) and worked well with the plot,
Annah and Grace were based on (be prepared for lameness) Betty and Veronica from
Archie and Ginger and Mary Ann from Gilligan's Island -- these romantic triangles
seemed to work, so we went with characters that were similar (spunky with a few
rough edges, vs. prim and proper), and the three incarnations were chosen just
because of the Rule-of-Three in Planescape and because they were the ones that had
the most impact on the player's life throughout the game.
Hope that helps,
Chris
John Ford.
wrote:
>*Slight spoilers*
>
>I have played FF7 (and loved it),
Hooray!
>and I think the influences it had on PST was
>the spells (which Ken Lee designed, and did a damn good job), and the fact that
>each type of player character would stick with one 'type' of weapon based on their
>personality or their personal preference.
>
>As for the amnesia, Annah and Grace/Tifa and Aeris, as well as the three
>incarnations at the end -- I assure you that was not based on FF7.
Not intentionally, anyway.
No, just joking. :P
>The amnesia was
>a plot device that seemed new to me (at the time) and worked well with the plot,
The thing I liked about it was how it worked with The Nameless One's
immortality, how he discovered he had been *all* of these people
before, to the point where they were seperate lives (incarnations).
This treatment of the standard amnesia story is new -- or at least
different enough to be great (for me, anyway).
>Annah and Grace were based on (be prepared for lameness) Betty and Veronica from
>Archie and Ginger and Mary Ann from Gilligan's Island
Heh, heh.
>-- these romantic triangles
>seemed to work, so we went with characters that were similar (spunky with a few
>rough edges, vs. prim and proper), and the three incarnations were chosen just
>because of the Rule-of-Three in Planescape and because they were the ones that had
>the most impact on the player's life throughout the game.
>
>Hope that helps,
>
>Chris
That settles it then. Thanks for the comments.
John Ford.
<blort...@ou.edu> wrote:
>How much goddamn skill or thought does it take to play an easy game
>when you have the 40 page guide to the silly item creation system in
>front of you? For that matter, even if you're *writing* the guide,
>how much skill or thought does this take? It's nothing more than a
>way to increase the perceived "difficulty" of the game, while
>protecting the sales numbers.
Like leveling up...
Dungeons with mazes...
Jump puzzles...
Block puzzles...
Lever puzzles, key puzzles, sliding puzzles, number puzzles, word
puzzles...
Save points...
I could go on.
>Any idiot can finish it, but those who
>want can pretend it makes them very, very smart that they were able to
>do so.
>
>Stimulus, response. Stimulus, response. Cheese!
I think you're maybe missing the fact that this is all videogames are.
John Ford.
<jk...@uclink4.berkeley.edu> wrote:
Okay, you're asking questions about FF8's plot, so I formally wash my
hands of this response. You asked for it. :P
Extensive spoilers for FF8 below, if anyone cares.
>1) Why is Laguna such a deadbeat father?
Laguna remained president of Esthar after the old sorceress, Adel, was
overthrown and imprisoned. The reason he did this was to ensure that
Dr. Ellone's disastrous researches did not cause harm to anyone else.
He had already developed Guardian Forces and the Ellone Machine which
allowed Ultimecia attempt to control time in the first place. So, he
enacted a strict isolationist policy in Esthar, and his duty demanded
he complete it.
>2) Time Compression: Who, what, when, where, how, and most importantly WHY?
Okay, this will take awhile. (deep breath)
The game world of Final Fantasy 8 was created by the great goddess
Hyne. After the world was created, the people began to grumble that
she was too powerful, and was keeping herself from her creation. So
she bestowed a raiment of her power on the women of the FF8 game
world -- who became sorceresses. As a result, all sorceresses come
from Hyne, and the power of the sorceress is transmitted from one to
another kind of like the immortal powers in Highlander. (Except
without the head-severing.)
Ultimecia was born into a future where SeeD already existed, and had
existed for a thousand years. As a result, they were prepared to
contain her -- to kill her if need be. She began to hate the common
person as a reaction to this oppression, and during this time she must
have come to know that she would die at some point in the past, at the
hands of one of SeeD's founding members. This is what gave her the
irrational hatred of SeeD she seems to display near the end of the
game.
Okay. Once she knew she would die... the only way to escape this fate
was to divorce the past from the future... to erase all consequences.
The only way to do that was to pull off Time Compression... through
this, she would make the past, present, and future the same. This
would be accomplished by Ellone-leaping back to Hyne herself, and then
"drawing in" the power Hyne had formerly bestowed. As one of the game
characters said "Only Ultimecia could live in such a world."
To prevent her death, she was willing to allow everyone else to die,
is the gist of it.
The best way to think of Ultimecia's tragedy is the phrase "witch
hunt." The Japanese term is closer to "witch" than "sorceress" from
what I understand.
>3) I played the game just ignoring Rinoa; why the sudden change in attitude from
>disc 2 - 3?
This is one of the game's flaws. Too many of the important segments
are optional and may never be seen. Suffice it to say that if you
behave in a not-entirely-bastard fashion to Rinoa, and ESPECIALLY if
you make certain the concert event goes off perfectly, Squall reveals
rather circumspectly that Rinoa is breaking through to him. For me,
this hit the more he tried to rationalize away his dreams, etc... he
had grown connected to Rinoa before, but never realized it until she
was gone. I took care to try to craft this reaction, though.
>4) Explain the purpose of the Flashbacks? You do nothing. Later you know you
>can't change the past, yet you still get sent back.
The flashbacks are just junctions that span time. Laguna and company
refer to the "fairies" ... personalities which appear in their minds
and enable them to overcome great odds, to the point where they won't
enter dangerous situations without feeling their presence. These
fairies are the minds of Squall and his friends "junctioned" to Laguna
and the others via Ellone. Squall and co. in turn have the Guardian
Forces junctioned to them, which means Laguna and co. inherit all
their power. The flashback did change the past... and yet also did
not... which is the nature of paradox.
More importantly, the flashbacks help you to realize crucial things
about the plot. Laguna loved Julia, but that relationship was never
meant to be. Laguna ended up marrying Raine, and was Squall's father.
Julia ended up marrying General Caraway, and was Rinoa's mother.
Fate plays a pretty heavy role in FF8, one which is not immediately
evident.
>> Until Torment, they are the best examples of a scripted, linear
>> plotline in a role-playing game.
>
>Perhaps...
I think so, anyway.
John Ford.
wrote:
>In article <38a9a0cc...@news.chello.at>,
>Raffael Lichtenberger <raffael.li...@chello.at> wrote:
>>You know, in most RPGs you spend your time with battles, collecting
>>money and doing things. Where's the problem?
>
>I didn't care about any of the characters, there were dozens of "special
>secrets" I was expected to find, the interface was a little fussy, and I
>just didn't see any point in continuing.
>
>Contrast with Lunar, where, at any point, I could tell what was next, or with
>Fallout or Planescape, where I had some control over parts of the story.
The sim tabletop thing is optional, you know. As are most of the
special secrets. First time I played through, I ignored all the side
items to rush through the plot.
Jonathan K. Lee
>
> Laguna remained president of Esthar after the old sorceress, Adel, was
> overthrown and imprisoned. The reason he did this was to ensure that
> Dr. Ellone's disastrous researches did not cause harm to anyone else.
> He had already developed Guardian Forces and the Ellone Machine which
> allowed Ultimecia attempt to control time in the first place. So, he
> enacted a strict isolationist policy in Esthar, and his duty demanded
> he complete it.
But it doesn't answeer why he is such a deadbeat father? It is safe to say Raine had
Squall while ol' deadbeat was gone, then died, and had the kid sent to the
orphanage. Since Raine died, and deadbeat became aware of this notion, shouldn't he
also become aware of Squall? Now, the way I see it, there are two possiblities:
1) He doesn't know of Squall, in which case, he is an asshole for not asking why
Raine died, and become aware of Squall.
2) He is aware, but is too much a a deadbeat to take care of his own son.
Duty my ass--he is an asshole. Common, logical, sensible, etc. sense would say that
he would have gotten Squall.
I'm terribly sorry, could you tell me where in the game this information is
revealed? I just want to make sure some of this has concrete backing. Also, I was
also looking for how the "plan" works. That was just plain fucked up.
> >4) Explain the purpose of the Flashbacks? You do nothing. Later you know you
> >can't change the past, yet you still get sent back.
>
> The flashbacks are just junctions that span time. Laguna and company
> refer to the "fairies" ... personalities which appear in their minds
> and enable them to overcome great odds, to the point where they won't
> enter dangerous situations without feeling their presence. These
> fairies are the minds of Squall and his friends "junctioned" to Laguna
> and the others via Ellone. Squall and co. in turn have the Guardian
> Forces junctioned to them, which means Laguna and co. inherit all
> their power. The flashback did change the past... and yet also did
> not... which is the nature of paradox.
I dunno... I don't think your answer has that much backing... I got the impression
from the "faries" that they were observers. Something that was just *there*.
> More importantly, the flashbacks help you to realize crucial things
> about the plot. Laguna loved Julia, but that relationship was never
> meant to be. Laguna ended up marrying Raine, and was Squall's father.
> Julia ended up marrying General Caraway, and was Rinoa's mother.
True, it is important to us, but in the perspective of the game, where does it bring
Squall and everyone else? So we're watching the past. So what? Nothing gets
accomplished. They have no real purpose, but to inform us of Laguna, which doesn't
really matter to Squall's situation.
Brian H.
>
> It's pretty tough to claim that when the developers themselves
> admitted that FF7&8 had "inspired" them. It's not unusual that game
> developers played other people's games, love them and incorporated
> what they loved about them. But what I don't understnd is that why
> some peolpe have this attitude that if a CRPG is developered for the
> console, then it MUST be inferior. Sure there are great CRPGs made
> over the years, but for every one of them, there are at least 4, 5
> so-so ones and more are crap. Some claim that Japanese RPGs have too
> much combat, yet these people would play a M&M game for the umteenth
> time claiming that's what they like about the series.
>
For M&M, Diablo and most western CRPGs, combats contain tactical fun.
You *can* play it tactically as well as you *can* play it moronically.
For FF, and most Jap CRPGs, the combats contained almost NO tactical
fun. You *must* play it in the way that throwing enough spell
animations to watch the hit point bar drop to 0. No matter your IQ of
tactical combat is 200 or 0, you are *forced* to play it moronically.
And I found it *cheap*.
Now that is the difference.
--
Brian.
Human beings can send to bh1234...@nospam.please.ctimail.com.
Spammers can send to bh1...@my-deja.com because I never use it.
William
raffael.li...@chello.at wrote:
> On Tue, 15 Feb 2000 17:11:56 GMT, se...@plethora.net (Peter Seebach)
> wrote:
>
> >In article <38a9247e...@news.wiesbaden.netsurf.de>,
> >Eric Ashcroft aka The Ancient One <ancie...@cyberdude.com> wrote:
> >>that´s when the real game starts. the first 20 hours or so in the
city
> >>are only an introduction. that´s what many people can´t believe hehe
> >
> >Yeah, but I ran around doing things, at it looked like I just had to
spend
> >hours doing stupid things, playing some kind of battle sim tabletop
game,
> >collecting money, and so on. Boring.
>
> money and doing things. Where's the problem?
Maybe he just didn't like the way it was handled.
Even if two games are just basically hack and slash, I might love one
and hate another simply because I feel that game A handles its system a
lot better than game B.
Not everyone is going to like every game.
Led Mirage
<sain...@hot.mail.com> wrote:
>The Final Fantasy series have changed the way role-playing games are
>made. They are good games in their own right. It doesn't matter that
>close-minded computer RPG die-hards will not admit this simply because
>the style is different. Believe me, on the console gaming side of
>things, most console RPG players are as dismissive of computer
>RPG's... and it frustrates me to no end.
To be honest, though. There are really very few computer RPGs that I
consider great. Ultima4 and 7, The Fallouts and Planescape are the
ones that I consider great. The other are basically either so-so or
just crap. And none of them, except Planescape, features truely
memorable, likable characters.
William
Brian H. <bh1...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> (*snip*)
> >
> > It's pretty tough to claim that when the developers themselves
> > admitted that FF7&8 had "inspired" them. It's not unusual that game
> > developers played other people's games, love them and incorporated
> > what they loved about them. But what I don't understnd is that why
> > some peolpe have this attitude that if a CRPG is developered for the
> > console, then it MUST be inferior. Sure there are great CRPGs made
> > over the years, but for every one of them, there are at least 4, 5
> > so-so ones and more are crap. Some claim that Japanese RPGs have too
> > much combat, yet these people would play a M&M game for the umteenth
> > time claiming that's what they like about the series.
> >
>
> For M&M, Diablo and most western CRPGs, combats contain tactical fun.
> You *can* play it tactically as well as you *can* play it moronically.
How, exactly, can you play MM6 or Diablo tactically? In MM6, you lure a
few monsters away from the huge horde, hit AAAAAAAAAAAAA until they're
all dead, lather, rinse, repeat. Same with Diablo, except you click the
mouse instead of hitting A.
> For FF, and most Jap CRPGs, the combats contained almost NO tactical
> fun. You *must* play it in the way that throwing enough spell
> animations to watch the hit point bar drop to 0. No matter your IQ of
> tactical combat is 200 or 0, you are *forced* to play it moronically.
> And I found it *cheap*.
Wrong. I made it through over half of FF8 without using a single
summon, and very few spells. I used them very infrequently in FF7 as
well. Just because you thought you had to play the games a certain way
doesn't mean it was actually true.
Jarno Kaarinen
>On Mon, 14 Feb 2000 23:50:29 -0500, John Ford.
><sain...@hot.mail.com> wrote:
>
>>The Final Fantasy series have changed the way role-playing games are
>>made. They are good games in their own right. It doesn't matter that
>>close-minded computer RPG die-hards will not admit this simply because
>>the style is different. Believe me, on the console gaming side of
>>things, most console RPG players are as dismissive of computer
>>RPG's... and it frustrates me to no end.
>
>To be honest, though. There are really very few computer RPGs that I
>consider great. Ultima4 and 7, The Fallouts and Planescape are the
>ones that I consider great. The other are basically either so-so or
I guess you are the console counterpart of those PC RPG players who
think most console RPGs are crap (no gameplay, just a rehashed amnesia
story over and over again). I like PC RPGs more in general, and it it
usually because console RPGs seem to have thinner gameplay.
William
Chris Avellone <CAve...@blackisle.com> wrote:
> I have played FF7 (and loved it), and I think the influences it had
on PST was
> the spells (which Ken Lee designed, and did a damn good job), and the
fact that
> each type of player character would stick with one 'type' of weapon
based on their
> personality or their personal preference.
That's about what I figured. Celestial Host in particular struck me as
having been influnced by Knights of the Round...
> Annah and Grace were based on (be prepared for lameness) Betty and
Veronica from
> Archie and Ginger and Mary Ann from Gilligan's Island --
LOL! I guess inspiration is a funny thing.
Still, when it works out this well, I really can't find fault with it.
Zyan
> For M&M, Diablo and most western CRPGs, combats contain tactical fun.
> You *can* play it tactically as well as you *can* play it moronically.
>
> fun. You *must* play it in the way that throwing enough spell
> animations to watch the hit point bar drop to 0. No matter your IQ of
> tactical combat is 200 or 0, you are *forced* to play it moronically.
> And I found it *cheap*.
>
>
You sure? Have you played the SLGs (a form of tactical RPGs from Japan)?
Those are definitely tactical. And well, for better or worse, turn-based
too. For example, Odium would be considered an SLG.
Does not mean I like the combat part though. I usually played them for the
plots.
Zyan
William <willi...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:88c49g$ns6$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> That's a very good point, and IMO the biggest flaw of the FF series. I
> recall reading a review of the PC version of FF8 and it said
> (paraphrased) "You can't help but get the feeling that this game would
> be a lot better if you could just watch it instead of playing it." When
> I played FF7&8, I had the distinct feeling that I was just watching and
> not playing. The only thing I really seemed to have any control over
> was the battles.
>
> But, I think that a lot of PC CRPGs have the same problem, it just
> isn't as obvious because there isn't as much character development. The
> FF games have tons of character development, it's just that the player
> doesn't have any control over any of it. Many PC games have little or
> no character development, such as the Wizardry series, the M&M series,
> or BG (BG was a bit better in that department than Wizardry or M&M, but
> it still had very little character development). PS:T is really a first
> for a PC game in the characterization department.
>
> So far the choice has been between PC games, with no character
> development at all, and console games, with character development the
> player doesn't control. Hopefully we'll see more games like Torment so
> that these won't be the only choices out there anymore.
>
Totally agreed with your point. I was once sceptical about having a game
that can have a great plot with great character development and yet freedom
to role-play as you wish. As one game designer said (you know who you are),
"It's Chaos Theory".
Well, PST proved me wrong. And am I glad!
Kenny Smith
Led Mirage wrote:
>
>
> I think what Steve was trying to say is that this kind of thing
> happens all the time. *It's no big deal*. Akira Kurusugawa made films
> based on Shakespeare's plays. Hollywood filmmakers in turn made movies
> based on Kurusugawa's movies. It's not such a big deal, really. And no
> need to get defensive about it, either.
I beg to differ. Steve Kostoff's "Kevin Bacon game" and "Universal
Point of Correspondence" allusions suggested that the original post was
making trivial connections between two completely unrelated topics.
Isn't that the point of the "Kevin Bacon game" reference? Steve's
uninformed reply was completely off-base, and his sarcastic &
patronizing tone didn't help either.
Kenny Smith
Steve Kostoff wrote:
>
>
> So... where did you read that I never played FF7? Eh?
>
> Steve Kostoff
So... let me answer your cleverly *ambigious* response with a simple
question:
Well, have you played through FF7, eh? More than just the demo, I
mean.
Of course I won't have you put your right hand on the Bible or anything
like that ;)
Steve Kostoff
Kenny Smith wrote in message <38AABBA0...@nospam.com>...
Yes. You happy now?
Good lord, I thought my previous answer would be hint enough that I in fact
did. I really doubt I or anyone else would post that sort of response if the
answer was "no."
Steve Kostoff
Jason McCullough
Yes, but some videogames make it difficult, and that's why people play
them. I personally have no urge to solve a puzzle if it's trivially
easy. That's what the current crop of console games are, with the
latest FF games being the worst offenders. I remember Final Fantasy I
being fairly hard, but maybe I'm hallucinating, since I was 12.
Of course, this is the point where a FF7-loving whore starts
blathering about "complex item systems" or a "complicated hidden
mini-game." You can stick a "Solve the partial differential equation,
yuk yuk yuk!" subgame into a hidden corner of MathBlaster( ages 6 and
up :) !!!!!!!!) and make it accessible only by hitting the right
fourteen character combination with your thumbs melted together, but
you can't make MathBlaster a "complex," "challenging," or "difficult"
by shoehorning a difficult puzzle into a dusty back corner. Console
games engage in this a little too often for my taste.
Don't even get me started on the plots they use for "story-driven"
games.
John Ford.
>>If you referred to my post, I said you *can* play MM6 & Diablo
>tactically but you also *can* play them moronically.
Yeah, sure. I could also play them standing on my head using a
trackball with one hand, but that wouldn't make them any more
"tactical."
>Typically you
>play them moronically. In the supreme temple of Baa, e.g., you have
>lots of mages throwing spells to you. My tactical is to play hide &
>seek. Find the best strategic position, hit one or two. Then re-locate
>to another position and hit one or two and gradually clear all of them,
>similar case in Diablo.
Or in clear language, draw two out and kill them, draw two out and
kill them, draw two out and kill them, draw two out and kill them, and
draw two out and kill them. It really doesn't even matter how you kill
them, where you kill them, or when you kill them, as long as you use
this strategy. As long as you don't RUSH STRAIGHT IN SWINGING, you'll
be fine.
>Basically, a game designed with tactical nature in mind allow morons
>like you to play them in moronical way. But a game like FF designed
>without tactical nature will force you to play like a moron, even if
>you don't want to play that way.
A player's supposed tactical brilliance does not excuse a game's
abusable combat system. MM6 has the same flaw Doom did... the monsters
are STUPID. Diablo is a click fest. FF8 can be won almost purely by
summons (and definitely by just limit breaks). I don't care how many
imaginary ways you can make the game require thought to complete, any
self-important windbag can accomplish the same thing and make himself
feel big about it. Talk about the game design itself.
>Basically, if throwing such animation (well, spells, or summon) can be
>considered as tactics, then such tactics are typically cater for 8
>years old kid.
Your English is "typically cater" for a "juniors high" student,
apparently.
John Ford.
<blort...@ou.edu> wrote:
>Yes, but some videogames make it difficult, and that's why people play
>them.
Funny, most people I know play them to have fun.
>I personally have no urge to solve a puzzle if it's trivially
>easy.
Well, hooray for your intelligence and sense of integrity.
>That's what the current crop of console games are, with the
>latest FF games being the worst offenders. I remember Final Fantasy I
>being fairly hard, but maybe I'm hallucinating, since I was 12.
Are we going to talk about brain donor games here? Okay. Here's one
for you.
Every problem, in almost every RPG, can be solved by leveling up.
Instead of "difficulty," the term you should be using is "repetition."
>Of course, this is the point where a FF7-loving whore starts
>blathering about "complex item systems" or a "complicated hidden
>mini-game." You can stick a "Solve the partial differential equation,
>yuk yuk yuk!" subgame into a hidden corner of MathBlaster( ages 6 and
>up :) !!!!!!!!) and make it accessible only by hitting the right
>fourteen character combination with your thumbs melted together, but
>you can't make MathBlaster a "complex," "challenging," or "difficult"
>by shoehorning a difficult puzzle into a dusty back corner. Console
>games engage in this a little too often for my taste.
Let's examine your absurd statement that the level of difficulty in a
game is the whole of its worth.
The ease you describe is called "appealing to the target market",
which for console systems is about ten years younger than computer
gamers. You know, those who don't spend three thousand dollars on a
system. As a result, cinematic flash and atmosphere take a front-seat
ahead of level-up systems and note-taking and graphing out dungeon
maps.
I realize this may be hard for you to grasp, but sometimes a simple,
involving game is more entertaining than one that's a chore (although
the one that's a chore generally gives a greater sense of
satisfaction).
Sorry if you didn't have fun with it, but I did, and so did around 6.5
million others. I don't really understand your spite toward the genre.
Games are different. Let it go.
>Don't even get me started on the plots they use for "story-driven"
>games.
Let me guess: the plot you invent for yourself with character stats
and 'armor dress up' is much better.
John Ford.
<jk...@uclink4.berkeley.edu> wrote:
>But it doesn't answeer why he is such a deadbeat father? It is safe to say Raine had
>Squall while ol' deadbeat was gone, then died, and had the kid sent to the
>orphanage. Since Raine died, and deadbeat became aware of this notion, shouldn't he
>also become aware of Squall? Now, the way I see it, there are two possiblities:
>1) He doesn't know of Squall, in which case, he is an asshole for not asking why
>Raine died, and become aware of Squall.
>2) He is aware, but is too much a a deadbeat to take care of his own son.
>
>Duty my ass--he is an asshole. Common, logical, sensible, etc. sense would say that
>he would have gotten Squall.
Well, that's the only explanation given. I don't believe Laguna was
able to leave Esthar as president, or he would have, but the game says
nothing about it aside from he locked down the country and sealed it
off from the world. I'd rather there have been more to it as well.
My memory is foggy on some of this.
The Hyne myth is revealed in Balamb town in the later parts of the
game, where children are reading a book about her. The information
about the Sorceress power coming from Hyne is in the Tutorial section,
along with the information about how the Sorceress power is passed on.
Numerous NPC's around the time when Rinoa becomes a sorceress have
this info as well.
Seed existed in the future because, well, when you travel to the
future, there they are, fighting Ultimecia.
Ultimecia reveals her oppression when she gives a speech at Galbadia
Garden, as she possesses Edea. Something like, "Where is the sorceress
you have reviled for generations? What do you think of her now?"
The fact about Ultimecia discovering her own death is never explicitly
stated. But given that Seed was hunting her before she was born it is
a reasonable inference.
Time Compression would be the only way to escape this..
The part about jumping to Hyne is implicit based on the knowledge that
all Sorceress' come from Hyne, and that Ultimecia needs Adel's power
to complete Time Compression.
>Also, I was
>also looking for how the "plan" works. That was just plain fucked up.
The plan is not spelled out. I understand this is a flaw. But it is
not without development, or foreshadowing, or reason.
>
>> >4) Explain the purpose of the Flashbacks? You do nothing. Later you know you
>> >can't change the past, yet you still get sent back.
>>
>> The flashbacks are just junctions that span time. Laguna and company
>> refer to the "fairies" ... personalities which appear in their minds
>> and enable them to overcome great odds, to the point where they won't
>> enter dangerous situations without feeling their presence. These
>> fairies are the minds of Squall and his friends "junctioned" to Laguna
>> and the others via Ellone. Squall and co. in turn have the Guardian
>> Forces junctioned to them, which means Laguna and co. inherit all
>> their power. The flashback did change the past... and yet also did
>> not... which is the nature of paradox.
>
>I dunno... I don't think your answer has that much backing... I got the impression
>from the "faries" that they were observers. Something that was just *there*.
No, it's clear from the language used that Laguna means Squall. And
didn't you ever pause to wonder why Laguna could use whatever GFs were
junctioned to Squall at the time? At one point, I believe before
descending to the Esthar excavation site, Kiros or Ward asks Laguna if
he feels the faeries, and he answers, "Yes, so we shouldn't have much
trouble now."
>True, it is important to us, but in the perspective of the game, where does it bring
>Squall and everyone else? So we're watching the past. So what? Nothing gets
>accomplished. They have no real purpose, but to inform us of Laguna, which doesn't
>really matter to Squall's situation.
It's a parallel story. It doesn't have to accomplish anything. Ellone
sent Squall to Laguna, and as a side effect gave him the Guardian
Forces that allowed him to escape Esthar's prison and defeat Adel at
all. Ellone was trying to change the past but she failed and suceeded
at the same time. That's all there is to it.
Jonathan K. Lee
> >revealed? I just want to make sure some of this has concrete backing.
>
> My memory is foggy on some of this.
>
> The Hyne myth is revealed in Balamb town in the later parts of the
> game, where children are reading a book about her. The information
> about the Sorceress power coming from Hyne is in the Tutorial section,
> along with the information about how the Sorceress power is passed on.
>
> Numerous NPC's around the time when Rinoa becomes a sorceress have
> this info as well.
>
> Seed existed in the future because, well, when you travel to the
> future, there they are, fighting Ultimecia.
>
> Ultimecia reveals her oppression when she gives a speech at Galbadia
> Garden, as she possesses Edea. Something like, "Where is the sorceress
> you have reviled for generations? What do you think of her now?"
>
> The fact about Ultimecia discovering her own death is never explicitly
> stated. But given that Seed was hunting her before she was born it is
> a reasonable inference.
>
> Time Compression would be the only way to escape this..
>
> The part about jumping to Hyne is implicit based on the knowledge that
> all Sorceress' come from Hyne, and that Ultimecia needs Adel's power
> to complete Time Compression.
I guess I was playing the game too late at night... Don't remeber all this junk.
> >I dunno... I don't think your answer has that much backing... I got the impression
> >from the "faries" that they were observers. Something that was just *there*.
>
> No, it's clear from the language used that Laguna means Squall. And
> didn't you ever pause to wonder why Laguna could use whatever GFs were
> junctioned to Squall at the time? At one point, I believe before
> descending to the Esthar excavation site, Kiros or Ward asks Laguna if
> he feels the faeries, and he answers, "Yes, so we shouldn't have much
> trouble now."
If it's so clear, why do several of my friends agree with me? It's not *that* clear, not
that I am completely dismissing your insights. I think this area was muddled, and can't
be explained with the same interpretation.
> >True, it is important to us, but in the perspective of the game, where does it bring
> >Squall and everyone else? So we're watching the past. So what? Nothing gets
> >accomplished. They have no real purpose, but to inform us of Laguna, which doesn't
> >really matter to Squall's situation.
>
> It's a parallel story. It doesn't have to accomplish anything. Ellone
> sent Squall to Laguna, and as a side effect gave him the Guardian
> Forces that allowed him to escape Esthar's prison and defeat Adel at
> all. Ellone was trying to change the past but she failed and suceeded
> at the same time. That's all there is to it.
Assuming what you say is true, why does Ellone continue to send Squall back? She
acknowledges that she cannot change the past, and (by your statements) is changing the
past? Why does she continue to do something she knows isn't possible (even though you
claim some effect does take place)?
Brian H.
>
> How, exactly, can you play MM6 or Diablo tactically? In MM6, you lure
a
> few monsters away from the huge horde, hit AAAAAAAAAAAAA until they're
> all dead, lather, rinse, repeat. Same with Diablo, except you click
the
> mouse instead of hitting A.
>
If you referred to my post, I said you *can* play MM6 & Diablo
tactically but you also *can* play them moronically. Typically you
play them moronically. In the supreme temple of Baa, e.g., you have
lots of mages throwing spells to you. My tactical is to play hide &
seek. Find the best strategic position, hit one or two. Then re-locate
to another position and hit one or two and gradually clear all of them,
similar case in Diablo.
Basically, a game designed with tactical nature in mind allow morons
like you to play them in moronical way. But a game like FF designed
without tactical nature will force you to play like a moron, even if
you don't want to play that way.
>
> Wrong. I made it through over half of FF8 without using a single
> summon, and very few spells. I used them very infrequently in FF7 as
> well. Just because you thought you had to play the games a certain way
> doesn't mean it was actually true.
>
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.
>
Basically, if throwing such animation (well, spells, or summon) can be
considered as tactics, then such tactics are typically cater for 8
years old kid.
--
Brian.
Human beings can send to bh1234...@nospam.please.ctimail.com.
Spammers can send to bh1...@my-deja.com because I never use it.
William
Brian H. <bh1...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > Wrong. I made it through over half of FF8 without using a single
> > summon, and very few spells. I used them very infrequently in FF7 as
> > well. Just because you thought you had to play the games a certain
way
> > doesn't mean it was actually true.
> >
>
> considered as tactics, then such tactics are typically cater for 8
> years old kid.
Weren't you listening? I just got through saying I made it through over
half of FF8 without using any summons at all, and only a handful of
spells.
Most of the tactics in the FF games happen outside of combat. In FF8,
you could customize your characters for battle by deciding which
abilites to use for them. The combat itself was fairly simple, but even
with such a simple system, you had different options, and the option
that worked best in one battle might not work best in another.
There are PC CRPG's with much more tactical depth than the FF series,
but you picked a couple of really bad examples with MM6 and Diablo. Both
those games are basically just straightforward slugfests, with your only
tactical options being to fight head on, or hit and run. That doesn't
mean that they're bad games, just that their focus is on things other
than battle tactics. Which is also the case with the FF series.
Brian H.
>
> You sure? Have you played the SLGs (a form of tactical RPGs from
Japan)?
> Those are definitely tactical. And well, for better or worse, turn-
based
> too. For example, Odium would be considered an SLG.
>
> Does not mean I like the combat part though. I usually played them
for the
> plots.
>
Yes, I played several SLGs from Japan, Taiwan, and Hong Kong before.
Traditionally they like to distinguish these 2 genres so I refer the
RPGs according to their (Japanese) usual way. Typically, the RPGs in
Japan follow the same formula, i.e., series of mindless combat with
several bosses in-between in a linear way.
I did enjoy playing those SLGs though. But all these SLGs are from PC,
none of them from console. And I don't know any console SLGs.
Japanese SLGs typically are more complex than Japanese RPGs, which in
addition to story & animation effects, they have better monster A/I,
many scenario maps, and more complicated tactical combat systems taking
account of terrains, APs, and lots of other special stuff. Therefore I
suspect there would be any console SLGs because of their relatively
lower capacity and lower processing power.
--
Brian.
Human beings can send to bh1234...@nospam.please.ctimail.com.
Spammers can send to bh1...@my-deja.com because I never use it.
TitanMage
>blathering about "complex item systems" or a "complicated hidden
>mini-game." You can stick a "Solve the partial differential equation,
>yuk yuk yuk!" subgame into a hidden corner of MathBlaster( ages 6 and
>up :) !!!!!!!!) and make it accessible only by hitting the right
>fourteen character combination with your thumbs melted together, but
>you can't make MathBlaster a "complex," "challenging," or "difficult"
>by shoehorning a difficult puzzle into a dusty back corner. Console
>games engage in this a little too often for my taste.
Very funny but true.