What was the first RPG?
Fredrik Ekman
that it was Rogue (released in 1983, I think), but the other day I
happened to take a look at my old Temple of Apshai box and found that it
was copyrighted in 1983, so I suppose neither of these games were
influenced by the other, in spite of many similarities.
Were there other, even earlier, games that the above two were inspired
by, or did they just happen upon the same concept at the same time?
/F
Mark W. Maurer
: I am wondering what the very first computer RPG was. I used to believe
: /F
Could it possibly by Akalabeth (or however it was spelled) by Richard
Garriot? Myself, I can't decide if that was just adventure or what. And
when did Ultima I come out?
--
Mark mwma...@colossus.csl.mtu.edu
.sig under construction.....
Entropy
: : I am wondering what the very first computer RPG was. I used to believe
: : that it was Rogue (released in 1983, I think), but the other day I
: : happened to take a look at my old Temple of Apshai box and found that it
: : was copyrighted in 1983, so I suppose neither of these games were
: : influenced by the other, in spite of many similarities.
:
: : Were there other, even earlier, games that the above two were inspired
: : by, or did they just happen upon the same concept at the same time?
:
If you are considering games like rogue, then I *think* I remember
something about telendgard being written way back on the crays. Don't
quite remember the specifics, though.
Shadrach
--
"If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am
only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of
prophecy and can fathom all mystersies and all knowledge, and if I have a
faith that cam move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing"
-1 corinthians 13:1-2
Robert Shannon Gregg
|> Fredrik Ekman (ek...@lysator.liu.se) wrote:
|> : I am wondering what the very first computer RPG was. I used to believe
|> : that it was Rogue (released in 1983, I think), but the other day I
|> : happened to take a look at my old Temple of Apshai box and found that it
|> : was copyrighted in 1983, so I suppose neither of these games were
|> : influenced by the other, in spite of many similarities.
|> Garriot? Myself, I can't decide if that was just adventure or what. And
|> when did Ultima I come out?
spelling, congrats :) was originally written in 1979. There ARE character
classes; you can be a mage or fighter, and that affects what weapons/armor/
spells you can use. However, that's the ONLY such decision you make in the
game; Monopoly has more role-playing that Akalabeth. Decide for yourself.
Underworld Dragon
--=(UDIC)=--
Brent Michael Krupp
Harold Hislop <haro...@genie.com> wrote:
>The earliest RPG that I can recall was "Adventure" (also known as
>Colossal Cave) written by.... uhm... the names fade into antiquity :/
Adventure was the first text adventure, and thus the first "adventure" game,
but it was in no way whatsoever an RPG. You had no character to speak of,
no choices about your abilities, etc., etc. Not an RPG at all.
Brent Krupp (flet...@u.washington.edu)
http://weber.u.washington.edu/~fletcher/
"In the faculty of writing nonsense, stupidity is no match for genius."
-- Walter Bagehot
mjs
>I am wondering what the very first computer RPG was. I used to believe
>that it was Rogue (released in 1983, I think), but the other day I
>happened to take a look at my old Temple of Apshai box and found that it
>was copyrighted in 1983, so I suppose neither of these games were
>influenced by the other, in spite of many similarities.
>Were there other, even earlier, games that the above two were inspired
>by, or did they just happen upon the same concept at the same time?
> /F
I think it was either Ultima 1 or Wizardry. Anyone know for sure?
Harold Hislop
>> I am wondering what the very first computer RPG was. I used to believe
>> that it was Rogue (released in 1983, I think), but the other day I
>> happened to take a look at my old Temple of Apshai box and found that
>> it was copyrighted in 1983, so I suppose neither of these games were
>> influenced by the other, in spite of many similarities.
Colossal Cave) written by.... uhm... the names fade into antiquity :/
included with many Apple ][+ systems that were purchased with DOS 3.3
and a Disk][ drive (as a package deal)
This RPG first gained fame as, of all things, a hardware and OS debug
tool on DEC mainframes. It is available now days for many platforms,
including Apple II, Mac, MS-DOS compatable, and Unix compatable.
Before this there was that mouldy oldie known as Hunt the Wumpus...
which some may claim wasn't a true RPG, but given it's age and
what it spawned I feel was one of the very first RPGs.
--
-Harold Hislop
Hardware Coordinator,
Apple II RoundTable, GEnie
14Mhz/32k TWGS, 1Mb Rev-C RamFast, Prototype ROM_03 in tower
(Heritage Mac hardware also spoken (great IIgs peripheral ;))
Harold Hislop
>>The earliest RPG that I can recall was "Adventure" (also known as
>>Colossal Cave) written by.... uhm... the names fade into antiquity :/
flet...@u.washington.edu (Brent Michael Krupp) replied:
>> Adventure was the first text adventure, and thus the first "adventure"
>> game, but it was in no way whatsoever an RPG. You had no character to
>> speak of, no choices about your abilities, etc., etc. Not an RPG at all.
not claim that it was anything other than an RPG. Infact in it's day
it was the only contender.
It involved a considerable amount of strategy, battles with "denizens",
treasures, multiple weapons, majik (Plugh, Y2, XYZZY, etc) plus many
other features that set the stage for later RPGs. To top this off it
was based on / surounded by a well thought out and described
enviroment (both above and below ground)
Games such as Adventure laid the very foundation for what evolved into
what we today refer to as "Role Playing Games".
Of course if you want something a little later in time there's always
"Sorceror of Siva" (published by Epix) This had a crude graphical
interface, as well as a limited text based one (text was on Hires) This
too contains many of the key elements of RPGs, so many of them that if
it is considered in the frame of time that it was published in it too
must be looked at as an RPG.
Mischa E Gelman
Fredrik Ekman <ek...@lysator.liu.se> wrote:
>I am wondering what the very first computer RPG was. I used to believe
the computer. You can come near it, and some games are getting close,
but there is no real CRPG. Adventure is the oldest computer game I know
of which features stuff found in Fantasy RPGs, though.
--
Ron Luciano: I remember one time Catfish Hunter moved the team's right
fielder, Roy White, about 7 steps closer to the foul line.Then, after thinking
about it, he moved him 3 steps back towards center.Unfortunately,the batter hit
a tremondous home run - but it did go directly over Roy White's head.
Nathaniel Vincent Lucier
>>by, or did they just happen upon the same concept at the same time?
Couldn't be Ultima I because Richard Garriot had written an RPG before
then. I think it was called Alkalabeth or something like that.
nate
Jeffrey L. Powell
: ek...@lysator.liu.se (Fredrik Ekman) wrote:
: >I am wondering what the very first computer RPG was. I used to believe
: >that it was Rogue (released in 1983, I think), but the other day I
: >happened to take a look at my old Temple of Apshai box and found that it
: >was copyrighted in 1983, so I suppose neither of these games were
: >influenced by the other, in spite of many similarities.
: >Were there other, even earlier, games that the above two were inspired
: >by, or did they just happen upon the same concept at the same time?
: > /F
: I think it was either Ultima 1 or Wizardry. Anyone know for sure?
Adventure.
--
How do I sign up for one of those 3 hour tours?
Duane Guingrich
>: Fredrik Ekman (ek...@lysator.liu.se) wrote:
>: : I am wondering what the very first computer RPG was. I used to believe
>: : that it was Rogue (released in 1983, I think), but the other day I
>: : happened to take a look at my old Temple of Apshai box and found that it
>something about telendgard being written way back on the crays. Don't
>quite remember the specifics, though.
The guy who wrote Telengard was a Purdue student. He was DM'ing at the RPG
club when I was going to school there ('83-'86); he may have already graduated by
that time. I think that I had Telengard for my C64 before I went to Purdue ('82), and
so he probably wrote Telengard in '81 or earlier. BTW, Purdue had a Cray at that time,
so he could very well have written it first on that platform. I also remember that
Temple of Apshai came out after Telengard.
Duane
Jason Holtzapple
->ek...@lysator.liu.se (Fredrik Ekman) wrote:
->
->>I am wondering what the very first computer RPG was. I used to believe
->>that it was Rogue (released in 1983, I think), but the other day I
->>happened to take a look at my old Temple of Apshai box and found that it
->>was copyrighted in 1983, so I suppose neither of these games were
->>influenced by the other, in spite of many similarities.
->
->>Were there other, even earlier, games that the above two were inspired
->>by, or did they just happen upon the same concept at the same time?
->
->> /F
->
->I think it was either Ultima 1 or Wizardry. Anyone know for sure?
I dug out my old Apple 2 Wizardry box and it was copyrighted in
1981. I'm not sure when Ultima 1 came out.
--
Jason Holtzapple * http://www.paranoia.com/~jth/
Even a good thing is not as good as nothing.
Rick_Micha...@cup.portal.com
right about the copyright being something like 1985, but the free
version came out much earlier. I also have a version of Rogue that
runs under CP/M that was originally hacked on a TRS-80 near as I
can figure, which would probably predate the IBM version by 4 or 5
years. There's a good history of adventure games in the book "Quest
for Clues". There is some crossover since the book covers both
CRPGs as well as Adventure. The author, Adams, gives most of the
credit to Crowthers<sp?> for writing the original Colossal Cave
in Fortran on a mainframe so his kids would have something to play.
Crowthers worked as a mapping Mammoth Caves in Kentucky<Once again,
foggy memory> before he got involved with programming. My own
first experience was with "Hunt the Wumpus" on a DEC mainframe. We
would play using a huge daisywheel printer/terminal at 300 baud. When
you'd fire an arrow it would invariably respond something like;
The arrow bounces!
The arrow bounces!
...
This noisy printer the size of a microwave oven would be clanging
away: thunka thunka pitter pat pat ca chong! After about 4 bounces
you'd find out if you hit anything including the Wumpus or yourself.
I recall my son was about 5 years old at the time, so this puts it
somewhere around 1977-1979. I believe it was out before the Apple II
came out since we tried to get an Apple II for data aquisition in
our lab as soon as they came out & the Information Science group convinced
management that what they really wanted to do was buy a mainframe for
$750,000 vs $3,500 for the Apple system we wanted. => Wumpus was already
a fact on DECs before the Apple even appeared. The funny thing is
Hunt the Wumpus gets almost no press. Apparently it was one hidden/included
on all DECs or at least available. I can only guess that the authors
didn't want managment to know they were fooling around with this sort
of thing so they chose to remain somewhat anonymous. Anyway, AFAIK,
[Colossal Caves, Hunt the Wumpus, Rogue] are the first three games
in the gen're, probably in that order.
Rick
Michael Carmack
: I think the first role-playing game was the original Adventure game.
: (the text game where you explore the underground). I think this much
: predates any of the other role playing games.
Perhaps, but most of us would categorize it as an adventure game, not an RPG.
[Common knowledge about Tolkien and AD&D snipped]
: Zork and its sequels refined this type of game and a boom in text
: based games ensued. But, Zork is the best example of the
: fantasy ones that I remember. I know it had hit points,
: and ability to cast spells.
Hit points in Zork? I don't think so. You had a general "health"
condition, i.e you could be in perfect health, weakened, etc. But no hit
points in the version I played (Apple ][).
: I remember some 3-D maze games very early on and soon
: fantasy elements were added to these. Both overhead games
: and 3-D maze games developed.
I believe Akalabeth predates Wizardry, so it's the oldest 1st person maze
game I remember. I've heard there are older ones on other compter models
though.
: Ultima (and its Aklabeth predecessor) helped popularize the
: overhead game with maze sequences,
Not to be picky, but Akalabeth practically invented the genre. Ultima I
is nothing more than a really enhanced Akalabeth.
: and Wizardry was a very popular early game with 3-D maps. The Sierra Kings
: Quest games were another early RPG type game.
King's Quest is by no means an RPG. It came out late enough in history
for there to be a distinct difference between RPGs and adventures. King's
Quest is an adventure game.
: In my opinion, the game that really made the 1st person 3-D
: perspective RPG games huge was Bard's Tale. Most current
: games using a 3-D perspective are pretty much direct descendants
: of that game.
Uh, Bard's Tale is a direct descendent of Wizardry. If you're going give a
game credit for a popularizing a genre, give the credit to the correct game.
[A little bit snipped]
: Some games are starting to incorporate smooth
: movement which is solely due to the influence that Castle
: Wolfenstein 3-D (not a RPG) influenced into the 1st person
: perspective world.
Uh, STARTING to incorporate smooth movement? It has been around for
years. Still the only really good one IMHO is Ultima Underworld, which
came out at roughly the same time as Wolf-#D. Wolf-#D hasn't influenced
anything but shoot-em-ups, give the credit to UW.
: The main mover in the overhead RPG was the Ultima series. This
: series has been the only major series in the overhead RPG except
: for some of the Sierra games. The Ultima series advanced in technical
: sophistication to the current Ultima 8 which has arcade-type action.
: (Whether this improved the fun of the game is another issue).
I feel like I'm grading a thesis that was done at the last minute...
Yes, we know how important Ultima is. But it's hardly the only top-down
game around. Jeez, there have been Ultima rip-offs on console machines
for many, many years (Dragon Warror for the NES is the oldest I can recall).
: There was no single game that was the first game that started everything.
: One game built on another by adding new features slowly and over
: time. In my opinion, the fantasy world can be credited to Tolkein and
: the D&D crew that popularized (copied wholesale) his type of universe.
No one is debating who invented fantasy in general. The issue is the
different game genres, which neither Tolkien or TSR had anything to do with.
--
========================================================================
"In sports, it's not who wins or loses; | Mike Carmack
it's how drunk you get." | mcarmack@freenet.
- Homer Simpson | columbus.oh.us
J. David Spafford
You attacked various monsters in a random dungeon while building up
character points. I don't know if this is a true RPG, but it proceeds all
the ones mentioned before. I was playing it 1979-80.
J. David Spafford,
Department of Biological Sciences, University of Alberta
jspa...@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca
Kay-Yut Chen
: : : I am wondering what the very first computer RPG was. I used to believe
: : : that it was Rogue (released in 1983, I think), but the other day I
: : : happened to take a look at my old Temple of Apshai box and found that it
: : : was copyrighted in 1983, so I suppose neither of these games were
: : : influenced by the other, in spite of many similarities.
: :
: : : Were there other, even earlier, games that the above two were inspired
: : : by, or did they just happen upon the same concept at the same time?
: :
: If you are considering games like rogue, then I *think* I remember
: something about telendgard being written way back on the crays. Don't
: quite remember the specifics, though.
: Shadrach
I think Wizardry and Ultima I on the Apple II predates all of those.
--
=====================================================================
| A Traveler between dimensions | |
+ ------------------------------+ |
| |
| In the Kingdom of Drakkar, I am known as <Narius the Mentalist> |
| To the denizens of Britainnia, my name is <Seldon the Avatar> |
| The Terran Confederation pilots call me <One the Cat Slayer> |
| |
| <<Kay-Yut Chen>> |
| |
=====================================================================
Davis W. Edwards
(the text game where you explore the underground). I think this much
predates any of the other role playing games.
There were many smaller role-playing games that came out of
early Dungeons and Dragons ideas.
The begining of the whole idea of modern fantasy (elves = tall,
immortal, dwarves = short, mountainpeople, trolls = green,
scale-covered, orcs = big sub-humanoid, etc) really began with
the works of JRR Tolkein. Prior to him, elves looked a lot like
fairies, trolls looked like leprechauns, and orcs were big, flying
birds that inhabited the Arabian Nights tales. Tolkein should get
the credit for coming up with the modern fantasy world.
The Dungeon and Dragons team turned these ideas into a
extremely popular game and popularized the standard
fantasy world.
In the computer realm, I think Adventure was the first widely
distributed fantasy-type game. (It might have had a predecessor)
It had many fantasy elements, and the beginning of a role-
playing idea. (Collect equipment, etc)
Zork and its sequels refined this type of game and a boom in text
based games ensued. But, Zork is the best example of the
fantasy ones that I remember. I know it had hit points,
and ability to cast spells.
I remember some 3-D maze games very early on and soon
fantasy elements were added to these. Both overhead games
and 3-D maze games developed.
Ultima (and its Aklabeth predecessor) helped popularize the
overhead game with maze sequences, and Wizardry was a
very popular early game with 3-D maps. The Sierra Kings
Quest games were another early RPG type game.
In my opinion, the game that really made the 1st person 3-D
perspective RPG games huge was Bard's Tale. Most current
games using a 3-D perspective are pretty much direct descendants
of that game. Numerous enhancements developed over the years
with a major step being Dungeon Master, which (I think) was
the first to introduce real-time, with monsters moving around
in the dungeon. Eye of the Beholder built on this to improve this
idea for the PC, and game technology hasn't advanced a whole
lot since. Some games are starting to incorporate smooth
movement which is solely due to the influence that Castle
Wolfenstein 3-D (not a RPG) influenced into the 1st person
perspective world.
The main mover in the overhead RPG was the Ultima series. This
series has been the only major series in the overhead RPG except
for some of the Sierra games. The Ultima series advanced in technical
sophistication to the current Ultima 8 which has arcade-type action.
(Whether this improved the fun of the game is another issue).
There was no single game that was the first game that started everything.
One game built on another by adding new features slowly and over
time. In my opinion, the fantasy world can be credited to Tolkein and
the D&D crew that popularized (copied wholesale) his type of universe.
The best that can be done is to look at major game milestones that
popularized and/or defined the genre. These influential games
were not the earliest ones in all cases, but I think the ones listed above
were the most influential.
--
Davis W. Edwards
BJSTONE
>: I think it was either Ultima 1 or Wizardry. Anyone know for sure?
>
>Adventure.
>
I thought Adventure was an "adventure" game, NOT an rpg.
--
---------------------------------------------------------------
Brantley Jones | LDS iAmerica
http://www.nlu.edu/~bjones | Technical Support Rep.
bjo...@iamerica.net | (318) 388-1389 x3109
---------------------------------------------------------------
Brent Michael Krupp
Harold Hislop <haro...@genie.com> wrote:
>If Adventure is looked at =in it's original temporal context= one can
>not claim that it was anything other than an RPG. Infact in it's day
>it was the only contender.
The meaning of the term "RPG" hasn't changed since the time that Adventure
came out. It is not an RPG. The context has nothing to do with it.
>It involved a considerable amount of strategy, battles with "denizens",
>treasures, multiple weapons, majik (Plugh, Y2, XYZZY, etc) plus many
>other features that set the stage for later RPGs. To top this off it
>was based on / surounded by a well thought out and described
>enviroment (both above and below ground)
You have just described an adventure (lower-case a) game. Not an RPG.
None of what you list is in any way unique to RPGs.
>Games such as Adventure laid the very foundation for what evolved into
>what we today refer to as "Role Playing Games".
Untrue. Actual pencil and paper role playing games like D&D laid the
foundation for computer role playing games.
Without any ability to personalize your "character" whatsoever and
virtually no random element (the knife throwing dwarves and the pirate
hardly count at all) and essentially no combat system (alternately
banging out 'thro axe' and 'get axe' ain't a combat system), Adventure
was, I repeat, not in any way whatsoever a role playing game.
Matthias Mensing
But this would lead us into a discussion like "who was the additional
Nexus-Unit in Blade Runner?" or "Is Roswell a fake?" or "Who sunk the
Titanic?" or "Has Jupiter a solid surface?" or "Why gets milk bad while
thunderstorms?" or "... =-]
by
Matthias
William Shubert
>
> I remember hearing that Adventure was the first RPG. But if you're talking about a
> roguelike RPG, with a series of flat mazes, character attributes, etc., then I know that
> Telengard predates Wizardry and Ultima. I remember playing something called "Telengard's
> Dungeon" on my friend's father's VAX account from DEC when I was in third grade; this would
> have been 1977, before the Apple II even existed.
> -Bill (w...@hevanet.com)
> http://www.hevanet.com/wms/
Whoops. After thinking more, this was not in third grade, but
somewhere in fifth grade to seventh grade.
Which would put it in the 1979-1981 time frame.
-Bill (w...@hevanet.com)
http://www.hevanet.com/wms/
Lynn Johannesen
: I am wondering what the very first computer RPG was. I used to believe
: that it was Rogue (released in 1983, I think),
I saw Hunt the Wumpus on a toy computer (KIM, I think it was called)
in 1978. I only had that job 6 months, so I'm sure of the year.
The mainframe Dungeon (the predecessor of Zork) was also around in
that timeframe; its history is rather mysterious, I think because its
author wrote it at DEC while he was supposed to be doing something else,
and is a little paranoid about talking about it. He wasn't one of
the guys who went on to found Infocom, I don't think. (Based on
rumor from a DEC engineer who worked there at the same time.)
Original Adventure was by Crowther & Woods. The Scott Adams adventures
came later. (That's not the same guy who writes Dilbert BTW.)
None of those are RPGs. The first RPG would be either Akalabeth
(which I never played) or Wizardry 1. We have a firm date of 1981
on the latter. Can anybody supply a date for Akalabeth?
William Shubert
Michael Carmack
: So maybe someone could first present a definition "what is a rpg"?
I think you'll get a lot of varying answers, but here's my general definition.
In an RPG, the player gets a chance to create his character to suit
his/her tastes. At minimum this involves choosing a name, and ideally a
race, class, even a picture if the graphics can support it. There should
be some numerical statistics involved to the character, including
strength, intelligence, agility, hit points, etc. (They could be called
something else, of course, but we all know what they mean.) Some or all
of these statistics should be able to improve over time, e.g. by gaining
experience levels or some other method of advancement. You should be able
to equip your character(s) with different weapons and armor which will
affect your luck in combat. Finally, you need to have some interaction
with NPCs, even if it's as basic as getting the quests from the kings in
Ultima I. I really don't see a need for much combat, except as a means to
gain experience and to make the game more exciting.
That's just my definition, and of course I recognize that there will be
holes in it. Some really popular RPGs don't make it according to this;
Betrayal at Krondor springs instantly to mind. The pre-made characters
detract from the first rule of an RPG: the characters aren't you. I
prefer to call it an interactive story, a category I also use for most
SNES RPGs (Final Fantasy, Chrono Trigger, etc.)
: But this would lead us into a discussion like "who was the additional
: Nexus-Unit in Blade Runner?"
Decker!
: or "Is Roswell a fake?"
No, it was Quark, Rom, and Nog.
: or "Who sunk the Titanic?"
Could have sworn it was an iceberg.
: or "Has Jupiter a solid surface?"
Well, I suppose it does if you penetrate deep enough.
: or "Why gets milk bad while thunderstorms?" or "... =-]
??? That's new to me...
Bret Patterson
>ek...@lysator.liu.se (Fredrik Ekman) wrote:
>
>>I am wondering what the very first computer RPG was. I used to believe
>>happened to take a look at my old Temple of Apshai box and found that it
>>was copyrighted in 1983, so I suppose neither of these games were
>>influenced by the other, in spite of many similarities.
>
>>Were there other, even earlier, games that the above two were inspired
>>by, or did they just happen upon the same concept at the same time?
>
>
>I think it was either Ultima 1 or Wizardry. Anyone know for sure?
The first RPG was "adventure" written for the old PDP 11. I'm not sure what
year but it was the first. Adventure spawned the whole genre like Dungeon Hack,
Rogue etc.
Bret
David Adrien Tanguay
> I am wondering what the very first computer RPG was. I used to believe
> that it was Rogue (released in 1983, I think), but the other day I
> happened to take a look at my old Temple of Apshai box and found that it
> was copyrighted in 1983, so I suppose neither of these games were
> influenced by the other, in spite of many similarities.
>
> Were there other, even earlier, games that the above two were inspired
> by, or did they just happen upon the same concept at the same time?
I ported Rogue to a Wicat in 1982, and I'm pretty sure it was on the Unix
distribution that we (then U. of Waterloo) got with the Vax in 1981. It was
already up to version 3 by then. The 1983 date is probably when it was
released commercially.
There was a game on GCOS in 1979 (and probably earlier, but that's the
save-file date) called dung or dungeon, a half-duplex, text-only RPG. It may
have been local to UW. There were probably many other similar games flying
about: putting the Dungeons and Dragons dice character attributes back into
Adventure.
What's the distinction between "adventure game" and RPG? I think it's a bit
fuzzy. You'll probably find that RPGs evolved out of adventures. The missing
links might be hard to classify as one or the other.
--
David Tanguay d...@Thinkage.on.ca http://www.thinkage.on.ca/~dat/
Thinkage, Ltd. Kitchener, Ontario, Canada [43.24N 80.29W]
mbdi...@waikato.ac.nz
> Colossal Cave) written by.... uhm... the names fade into antiquity :/
Was this the text adventure written by Scott Adams? I seem to remember I had a
whole series of them (12) and that name rings a bell as the first in the
series. This however was not an RPG by any stretch of the imagination but more
of a text (like infocom) style type-in. This could well be the first ever
type-in adventure game (any earlier?).
The first RPG I can remember was Ultima I, but I'm sure I played some games
that could be described as RPGs in good-old-fashioned Apple II low res (now
this res is _really_ low 40x40x15 I believe...) ahhh the good old days when
any sort of graphics was eye-popping!
Maarten.
Davis W. Edwards
edward...@jpmorgan.com (Davis W. Edwards) wrote:
About response to my previous post and comments
about it.
I don't think there was a real difference between
role-playing games and adventure games in the
early days.
Adventure was definitely an attempt to translate
the paper and pencil RPG to a computer. It had
many attributes of modern games (inventory,
problems, some interaction with NPC creatures)
Granted interaction wasn't much, but is Stonekeep's
interraction much more advanced?
Zork was a progression of this incorporating damage
and hit points. I guarantee that the computer had a
counter keeping exact track of damage even if it never
showed the player anything other than 'you are about to
die'
I also remember a game called Rogue? that allowed
a user to move around a random dungeon with
ASCII graphics. Pretty simplistic, but that might
be the start for some RPG purists.
I also think that seperating out early adventure games
from early RPG games. Games existed before either
classification came in to being, why try to back-classify?
Seriously, when it came out do you think anyone would
have complained that it wasn't a real RPG it was just
and adventure game? It was as close as you come with
the technology.
Hexen is just about to RPG levels (inventory, hits).
Granted, it has no plot, but neither did some RPGs
that I played. Ultima 8 and Temple of Apshai were
filled with arcade action too.
Granted, clicking on a sword icon is easier than typing
'thro axe' but it is really accomplishing the same thing.
A command is still sent to computer to use the weapon.
Ultima Underworlds was the first RPG that I played that
had smooth 3-D scrolling, and it was one of my favorites.
But, Wolf 3-D, made the whole 3-D smooth scrolling popular-
it wasn't UW (no matter how fun the game was). That doesn't
say Wold 3-D was a RPG, but that RPGs took some aspects
of Wolf 3-D.
RPGs also took some aspects of Adventure, and the King's Quest
games too. That's where RPG's came from. If you want to
talk about the beginnings of the genre, talk about the begginings,
and various influences into the modern RPG, rather than discussions
on which made the genre. No single game created the whole genre,
although certain ones defined parts of it.
--
Davis W. Edwards
David Scfres
please e-mail me.
David Putnam
me on those dates but it seems as long ago
Thomas Matteo
Johannesen) wrote:
> Fredrik Ekman (ek...@lysator.liu.se) wrote:
> : I am wondering what the very first computer RPG was. I used to believe
> : that it was Rogue (released in 1983, I think),
>
> I saw Hunt the Wumpus on a toy computer (KIM, I think it was called)
> in 1978. I only had that job 6 months, so I'm sure of the year.
> The mainframe Dungeon (the predecessor of Zork) was also around in
> that timeframe; its history is rather mysterious, I think because its
> author wrote it at DEC while he was supposed to be doing something else,
> and is a little paranoid about talking about it. He wasn't one of
> the guys who went on to found Infocom, I don't think. (Based on
> rumor from a DEC engineer who worked there at the same time.)
>
> Original Adventure was by Crowther & Woods. The Scott Adams adventures
> came later. (That's not the same guy who writes Dilbert BTW.)
>
> None of those are RPGs. The first RPG would be either Akalabeth
> (which I never played) or Wizardry 1. We have a firm date of 1981
> on the latter. Can anybody supply a date for Akalabeth?
In a computer magazine insert entitled, "The First Decade of Computer
Games", an article dates "Adventure" by William Crowther as being created
in the late 60's.
The magazine labels "Akalabeth" (sorry, no firm publishing date) as a
"dungeon adventure game" which was the foundation for Richard Garriott's
Ultima series of adventure games. Richard Garriott also created
"Akalabeth."
The first mention of a "fanstasy role-playing game" in the magazine is
"Wizardry: Proving Grounds of The Mad Overlord", created by Robert
Woodhead and Andrew Greenberg in 1981. Wizardry went on to become the
number one rated game for about 18 months in "Computer Gaming World"
magazine, selling more than 100,000 copies in its first years
release.Incidentally, Sir Tech's new Wizardry series begins sometimes
early next year and thus brings the title and the genre full circle, so to
speak.
Tom Matteo
--
Tom Matteo
Publisher/Editor
CD-ROM Above Board (newsletter)
Chan Hoong Keong
In article <DJtHt...@news2.new-york.net> m...@unix.asb.com writes:
>
> ek...@lysator.liu.se (Fredrik Ekman) wrote:
>
> >I am wondering what the very first computer RPG was. I used to believe
> >that it was Rogue (released in 1983, I think), but the other day I
> >happened to take a look at my old Temple of Apshai box and found that it
> >was copyrighted in 1983, so I suppose neither of these games were
> >influenced by the other, in spite of many similarities.
>
> I think it was either Ultima 1 or Wizardry. Anyone know for sure?
There were much older games than Ultima 1 and Wizardry. For example,
Eamon, which is a text-only RPG game, but I am sure there were much
older games even than Eamon. Hmmm, maybe the first RPG is a Wombat-like
game running on a mainframe?
W. Gregory Klett
Mensing) wrote:
>So maybe someone could first present a definition "what is a rpg"?
>
>But this would lead us into a discussion like "who was the additional
>Nexus-Unit in Blade Runner?" or "Is Roswell a fake?" or "Who sunk the
>Titanic?" or "Has Jupiter a solid surface?" or "Why gets milk bad while
>thunderstorms?" or "... =-]
>
>by
>Matthias
Actually this is a self defining term;
"Role Playing Game"
Adventure and Akalabeth etal only really vary in their interfaces. In
both of these you are playing the role of a character on an adventure.
Point and Click, or Text entry doesn't matter, neither does the text or
graphic output. It is the structure and how you interact with the world
that make it a roleplaying game. Better games, IMO, are those that provide
a complete and vivid feedback of the world you are entering. True, the
above would technically include the DOOM family of games as well, but
only just as the feedback may be vivid, but extremely limited!
My first Role Playing event was back in the dark ages of the Cold War. In
school we were to take on the Role of the President having to choose who
would get to enter the Fallout shelter and who wouldn't! I only wish I
could remember how the choices went back then. (1970)
Greg Klett
--
W. Gregory Klett | Congratulations! your Ship just came in,
cyc...@minn.net | Unfortunately it hit a rock in the harbor
| and sank. To bad you let the Insurance lapse,
| Here is the Bill for the clean up
mjs
>What about Adventure for the Atari-2600 cica 1978-1979? don't quote
>me on those dates but it seems as long ago
Are you referring to the game where you control a little box and your goal was
to get the chalice back to the yellow\gold castle? That brought back some fond
memories... that was a fun game. Actually, it was the best game for the old
2600. No way an RPG though. I hated that DAMN bat......
Roger Tramp
In article <cyclops-2012...@dialup-82.minn.net>, cyc...@minn.net (W. Gregory Klett) writes:
> In article <4b9e6n$a...@indigo2.dv.fal.de>, men...@bst.fal.de (Matthias
> Mensing) wrote:
>
> >So maybe someone could first present a definition "what is a rpg"?
> >
> >by
> >Matthias
>
> Actually this is a self defining term;
> "Role Playing Game"
>
> Adventure and Akalabeth etal only really vary in their interfaces. In
> both of these you are playing the role of a character on an adventure.
> Point and Click, or Text entry doesn't matter, neither does the text or
> graphic output. It is the structure and how you interact with the world
> that make it a roleplaying game. Better games, IMO, are those that provide
> a complete and vivid feedback of the world you are entering. True, the
> above would technically include the DOOM family of games as well, but
> only just as the feedback may be vivid, but extremely limited!
> My first Role Playing event was back in the dark ages of the Cold War. In
> school we were to take on the Role of the President having to choose who
> would get to enter the Fallout shelter and who wouldn't! I only wish I
> could remember how the choices went back then. (1970)
>
> Greg Klett
>
To me by definition, RPG's would also include games like Monopoly. You are
playing a role of a land developer, it just lacks some of the qualities of
other RPG's such as a character generation, stats, exerience points.
Let's just say Monopoly requires a great deal of creativity to compare to
a traditional RPG such a AD&D. By the same token, couldn't you say that
Ultima is just a game where you move your pieces around a board(map) and
collect items and gain power.
However, by connotation, I feel that RPG's should have a bit more to them
than games like Monopoly or Life. They should be flexible in role that
you can play. I guess I am saying that when I hear the term RPG, I think
of games like AD&D.
So what are are some minimum requirements for a game to be considered
an RPG?
Regards,
Roger Tramp
DLRapp
>Fredrik Ekman (ek...@lysator.liu.se) wrote:
>: I am wondering what the very first computer RPG was. I used to believe
>: that it was Rogue (released in 1983, I think),
>I saw Hunt the Wumpus on a toy computer (KIM, I think it was called)
>in 1978. I only had that job 6 months, so I'm sure of the year.
>The mainframe Dungeon (the predecessor of Zork) was also around in
>that timeframe; its history is rather mysterious, I think because its
>author wrote it at DEC while he was supposed to be doing something else,
>and is a little paranoid about talking about it. He wasn't one of
>the guys who went on to found Infocom, I don't think. (Based on
>rumor from a DEC engineer who worked there at the same time.)
>Original Adventure was by Crowther & Woods. The Scott Adams adventures
>came later. (That's not the same guy who writes Dilbert BTW.)
>None of those are RPGs. The first RPG would be either Akalabeth
>(which I never played) or Wizardry 1. We have a firm date of 1981
>on the latter. Can anybody supply a date for Akalabeth?
Rogue was out long before 1983. It was unofficially available on college
campus mainframes for years prior to commercial release. I believe that
it was floating around in the mid '70s. Long before Akalabeth. Rogue
was the original "alphabet" game and most likely should be considered as
the precursor to today's RPG genre. You had the basic RPG-required
concept of "character management" to keep your character alive.
Decision-making is the main key to RPG definition, IMO.
As for definition of RPGs, it fits as well as Akalabeth; which was just
Rogue with stickmen and some text. Defining RPGs is the sticky point in
this and has lead to some great flamewars. RPGs, IMO, were out long
before Akalabeth or Wizardry. Graphics do not an RPG make. I believe
that an RPG, among other things, requires a nonlinear approach, the
development of characteristics that influnce the approach to the game, the
naming of the character (important, but not essential), and a degree of
"character management" by the player. By the last, I mean you have the
responsibility of when to heal, eat, drink, etc. to varying degrees to
keep your character alive. Here is where many do not fit the RPG concept.
Rogue fits these in a rudimentary way, as should be expected from the
early development of any concept. You could explore every room, or not;
as you chose. You could fight, or run away. You decided what armor,
weapons, clothes, etc to wear/use. You chose what potions/scrolls to use
and when/where. No two players (or games) were ever the same; nor required
to be.
mjs
>m...@unix.asb.com (mjs) wrote:
>>ek...@lysator.liu.se (Fredrik Ekman) wrote:
>>
>>>I am wondering what the very first computer RPG was. I used to believe
>>>that it was Rogue (released in 1983, I think), but the other day I
>>>happened to take a look at my old Temple of Apshai box and found that it
>>>was copyrighted in 1983, so I suppose neither of these games were
>>>influenced by the other, in spite of many similarities.
>>
>>>Were there other, even earlier, games that the above two were inspired
>>>by, or did they just happen upon the same concept at the same time?
>>
>>> /F
>>
>>I think it was either Ultima 1 or Wizardry. Anyone know for sure?
>The first RPG was "adventure" written for the old PDP 11. I'm not sure what
>year but it was the first. Adventure spawned the whole genre like Dungeon Hack,
>Rogue etc.
>Bret
Adventure was a text adventure. Not an RPG.
Michael Carmack
: The magazine labels "Akalabeth" (sorry, no firm publishing date) as a
: "dungeon adventure game" which was the foundation for Richard Garriott's
: Ultima series of adventure games. Richard Garriott also created
: "Akalabeth."
: The first mention of a "fanstasy role-playing game" in the magazine is
: "Wizardry: Proving Grounds of The Mad Overlord", created by Robert
: Woodhead and Andrew Greenberg in 1981.
Hmmm, I wonder where the distinction arose between genres between
Akalabeth and Wizardry? Akalabeth is less of a dungeon-crawl than
Wizardry; the latter has no overland portion at all. Wizardry was
obviously more technically advanced than Akalabeth, but that doesn't make
it an RPG. The only things I can think of that Wizardry had the Akalabeth
didn't is a sophisticated magic system and a party of characters (vs. one
character). I don't think either of these make or break a games RPG-ness
(is that a word?)
I have to believe that the casual genres these games were classified as in
the magazine weren't meant to be used in a discussion of this nature. ;-)
In my eyes, Akalabeth is the oldest RPG. Adventure is an older game, but
I think it's an adventure game (thus the name, heh heh) not an RPG. RPGs
are an off-shoot of the broader category of adventure games.
Michael Carmack
: David Putnam <dpu...@allencomm.com> wrote:
: >What about Adventure for the Atari-2600 cica 1978-1979? don't quote
: >me on those dates but it seems as long ago
: Are you referring to the game where you control a little box and your goal was
: to get the chalice back to the yellow\gold castle? That brought back some fond
: memories... that was a fun game. Actually, it was the best game for the old
: 2600. No way an RPG though. I hated that DAMN bat......
Maybe not a real RPG, but I could see it classes as an "action-RPG" like
on the console systems. I'd call it an ancient ancestor to Legend of
Zelda, for example.
Darin Johnson
> >If Adventure is looked at =in it's original temporal context= one can
> >not claim that it was anything other than an RPG. Infact in it's day
> >it was the only contender.
>
> The meaning of the term "RPG" hasn't changed since the time that Adventure
> came out. It is not an RPG. The context has nothing to do with it.
Why not? RPG does not mean there have to be stats. Pray tell, what
is the official definition then, if it isn't "a game that deals with
playing a role"? Or is this a "I can't describe it, but I'll know
it when i see it"?
Note that Dungeon/Zork actually *had* character stats, just that the
player couldn't view or manipulate them. (ooh, it had combat, does
that make it RPG?)
> Without any ability to personalize your "character" whatsoever and
> virtually no random element (the knife throwing dwarves and the pirate
> hardly count at all) and essentially no combat system (alternately
> banging out 'thro axe' and 'get axe' ain't a combat system), Adventure
> was, I repeat, not in any way whatsoever a role playing game.
Well, almost everyone will agree that combat is not a required element
of RPG's (I hope they do). And probably a majority agree that
randomness is not needed. So what we're left with is the ability to
personalize the character! Odd - Al'Qadim doesn't let you personalize
your character, but people call that a role playing game. What about
Doom, Dark Forces, or Marathon? Some people think they're role
playing. On the other hand, there are quite a few people that think
nothing from SSI is even close to being an RPG. Is Zork Zero an RPG
with it's stats and combat, and if these elements were removed leaving
a virtually identical game, would it someone not be an RPG anymore? I
really hope your definition includes more than just these elements.
What did Adventure give you? You could take on the persona of the
adventurer. Sure, you only got one choice, but many things considered
RPG's do that. Sure, combat was limited, but if someone came out with
the My Dinner With Andre RPG, would it fail the test because of that?
Like any good RPG, it presents you with "what would you (or your
character) do in this situation?" What about more complex and
better adventure games, such as Curses? Is that less of an RPG than
Rogue?
And there was certainly much more role playing in Adventure than
in Temple of Apshai and Wizardry, the first games I remember that
might fit your definition.
--
Darin Johnson
djoh...@ucsd.edu
"Floyd here now!"
Jonathan Badger
that an CRPG is a game inspired by genuine RPGs such as Dungeons and Dragons.
Thus Rogue and Wizardry are CRPGs but Adventure and Zork are clearly not.
The confusion comes from the fact that both Adventure and Zork have fantasy
settings. While fantasy was in fact the first genre to be the basis of RPGs,
merely being set in a fantasy setting does not make a game an CRPG.
The Avatar
>Original Adventure was by Crowther & Woods. The Scott Adams adventures
>came later. (That's not the same guy who writes Dilbert BTW.)
>
>None of those are RPGs. The first RPG would be either Akalabeth
>(which I never played) or Wizardry 1. We have a firm date of 1981
>on the latter. Can anybody supply a date for Akalabeth?
According to my _Official Book of Ultima_
"Garriot's first published game was a one-player scenario with activites
that primarily entailed exploring dungeons, fighting monsters and
scooping up treasure. Though a relatively simple affair, its popularity
with the world's first computer games -who bought over 30,000 copies ...
-turned Alkabaleth into one of the classics... From 1978 to 1981 it was
voted as one of the top 30 games by _Softalk Magazine_..."
(p.9, Official Book of Ultima c1990, used without permission...yadda
yadda yadda)
It also goes on to state, that while some of Wizardry's levels were being
constructed as early as 1977, the game itself didn't come out till 1981
--
========================================================================
Hey! It's THE Avatar
(note the "THE"; I'm more than the garden-variety Paragon of Virtue!)
a.k.a ava...@chelsea.ios.com
Darin Johnson
> What's the distinction between "adventure game" and RPG? I think it's a bit
> fuzzy. You'll probably find that RPGs evolved out of adventures. The missing
> links might be hard to classify as one or the other.
And pen-paper RPG's evolved out of miniature war games (the big
difference between the two there being scale). But I think D&D really
invented the concept and the term RPG (argh, I hate giving TSR credit
for anything) Outside of computers, the only real workable definition
for RPG is a game that allows the players to assume different roles
(which is why the RPG newsgroups use "FRP" in their names, to limit
it to the more classical RPG types).
--
Darin Johnson
djoh...@ucsd.edu
The trouble with conspiracy theories are that they assume
the government is organized.
Darin Johnson
> I think you'll get a lot of varying answers, but here's my general definition.
You said "general". Does this mean there are exceptions?
> In an RPG, the player gets a chance to create his character to suit
> his/her tastes. At minimum this involves choosing a name, and ideally a
> race, class, even a picture if the graphics can support it.
What about "rpg" games where you are given a character to start with
(or multiple ones). What about ones where you have a small set of
characters to choose from rather than create your own? Al'Qadim,
The Genie's Curse didn't give you a character choice, and most would
call that RPG (probably says that on the box). I guess there are
exceptions to this rule.
> There should
> be some numerical statistics involved to the character, including
> strength, intelligence, agility, hit points, etc. (They could be called
> something else, of course, but we all know what they mean.)
Hmm, there are probably some non-computer RPG's that don't have
these... What does "Amber" use? I take it this is optional too.
> Some or all
> of these statistics should be able to improve over time, e.g. by gaining
> experience levels or some other method of advancement.
Why is this integral to RPG's? (and not just computer ones) Sure,
it's ubiquitous, but surely it doesn't need to be required.
> You should be able
> to equip your character(s) with different weapons and armor which will
> affect your luck in combat.
Unless of course, you roleplay something that doesn't deal with
combat. Pen-and-paper RPG's certainly don't require combat.
(talking RPG here, most CRPG's are *soley* combat)
> Finally, you need to have some interaction
> with NPCs, even if it's as basic as getting the quests from the kings in
> Ultima I.
Guess this rules out Rogue, Temple of Apshai, Wizardry(?), and plenty
of others.
> I really don't see a need for much combat, except as a means to
> gain experience and to make the game more exciting.
Gosh, to gain experience? Most role playing games give experience
in other ways (ie, for having good play sessions, completing
adventures, or for just role playing well).
I can think of exceptions to all of these rules for games
that some consider CRPG's (or even real paper RPG's). I guess
it still boils down to "I can't describe it, but I'll know it
when I see it".
--
Darin Johnson
djoh...@ucsd.edu
Support your right to own gnus.
Darin Johnson
> Are you referring to the game where you control a little box and
> your goal was to get the chalice back to the yellow\gold castle?
> That brought back some fond memories... that was a fun
> game. Actually, it was the best game for the old 2600. No way an RPG
> though. I hated that DAMN bat......
Hmm, if it's not RPG, then neither is Rogue. They're both basically
the same.
--
Darin Johnson
djoh...@ucsd.edu
Gravity is a harsh mistress - The Tick
Rick_Micha...@cup.portal.com
America. Extremely important, breakthough, whatever adjectives you
want to use, but as in the case of America where there were already
20-30 million Native Americans living here not to mention North
America being colonized centuries earlier by the Vikings, JRR was not
the first.
I've read fairy tales since grade school, which for me is decades. The
typical fairy tale, particularly Scandinavian in origin are nothing short
of brutal & can usually be told in several hundred words at most. A typical
tale would run something like:
There was once a bad boy who ran into the woods instead of helping his poor
old mother. He taunted a witch who turned him into a horse so he stomped her
to death. When winter came he was starving and cold when the wolves caught
him and ate him.
Ditto for most of the Disney stuff. For instance Pinochio<SP?> is an Italian
fairy tale, only it ends when Pinochio & his father are eaten by the
whale. In Sleeping Beauty, the poison apple kills her. Hansel & Gretal
EAT the witch after they burn her to death in the oven. The first two
of the three little pigs are not saved by their brother in the brick
house, they are eaten by the wolf. And on it goes.
IMHO: JRR was not even the first to add the elements he did to
his story, that honor would go to Frank L Baum author of The
Wonderful Wizard of Oz circa 1900 not to mention a dozen or so
sequels. I think what has happened is people have seen the movie
so they don't bother to read the books. The movie has undergone the
same 'cleaning up' as the Disney cartoons. I don't have my copies
of the JRR trilogy, but I'm under the impression they weren't even
printed until after WWII. I believe WOOz was made into a movie in
either 1939 or 1940. As such, it's impossible for me to believe
that JRR wasn't influenced by Baum's works.
Rick
RUBYWAND
Tramp) writes:
>
>So what are are some minimum requirements for a game to be considered
>an RPG?
>
You need to have control of one or more characters involved in some
kind of adventure. The original "Adventure", the Eamon games, "Zork",
"Wizardry", "Ultima", ... are all role-playing games. Games where the
emphasis is upon fast action, like "Pitfall", and "Warlock"/gs are
considered to be Arcade games, not rpg's.
The "RPG" tag says nothing about playing time or scenario content. It
does mean that you can expect to engage in an adventure, that you will
have 'time to think', and that you will be able to Save and Restore your
position.
Eric A Lulie
: So what are are some minimum requirements for a game to be considered
: an RPG?
I would say that, at the very least, there should be some kind of defined
rules system that allows for the creation of characters, the advancement
of those characters, and the interaction of those characters with other
characters and with their environment. When you think about it, almost
everything else that is typical of a role-playing game (combat, magic,
technology - be it swords or guns or blasters, etc.) is a variation on
one of the above three points; as well, NPCs are characters who are
created by the GM.
As for the creation of an environment, that is something that is left up
to the GM; in CRPGs, this is left to the programmer to create.
Again, at the very least an RPG should have these three things as
defining characteristics:
1) Specific rules for creating characters
2) Specific rules for allowing characters to advance
3) Specific rules for allowing characters to interact with other
characters and with the environment.
Eric
Brent Michael Krupp
Darin Johnson <djoh...@tartarus.ucsd.edu> wrote:
>> The meaning of the term "RPG" hasn't changed since the time that Adventure
>> came out. It is not an RPG. The context has nothing to do with it.
>
>Why not? RPG does not mean there have to be stats. Pray tell, what
>is the official definition then, if it isn't "a game that deals with
>playing a role"? Or is this a "I can't describe it, but I'll know
>it when i see it"?
Actually, an RPG pretty much *does* have to have stats, so as to better
create your character. A game without stats is often an adventure
game, not an RPG.
>Note that Dungeon/Zork actually *had* character stats, just that the
>player couldn't view or manipulate them. (ooh, it had combat, does
>that make it RPG?)
Stats that can't be viewed or manipulated ARE NOT character stats in
any meaningful way. The point of stats being important to RPGs is that
they *distinguish* the various characters one can play. Every single
time anyone played Dungeon or Zork they got the exact same "stats" with no
possible variation. Everyone playing Adventure can do exactly the same
things, with no trade-offs at all. These trade-offs are also usually
a part of the stats that define an RPG character.
>Well, almost everyone will agree that combat is not a required element
>of RPG's (I hope they do).
Without a combat system, or at least some sort of conflict resolution
rules, it isn't an RPG. Lots of people would agree with me here. This
is a topic that gets argued about all the time in rec.games.frp.misc,
however.
>And probably a majority agree that randomness is not needed.
A majority? I doubt it. Many people consider diceless "role-playing"
to be simple make-believe storytelling, and barely an RPG at all. Without
a random element in a computer game, you are left with an adventure game.
That is one of the biggest distinctions between RPGs and adventure games:
in an adventure game, you can pretty much do the exact same thing every
time you play, and always win. RPGs are much less predictable and
usually have a more free-form nature.
>So what we're left with is the ability to personalize the character!
>Odd - Al'Qadim doesn't let you personalize your character, but people
>call that a role playing game.
People would be over-simplifying. Al'Qadim is a rather hybrid game --
almost an action game with RPG elements, rather than a true RPG.
It fails to be a true RPG in part because you have no control over what
character you play and the rather simplistic inventory and magic system
is quite arcade-game-like.
>What about
>Doom, Dark Forces, or Marathon? Some people think they're role
>playing. On the other hand, there are quite a few people that think
>nothing from SSI is even close to being an RPG.
Some people are extremely stupid. This adds nothing to your argument.
>Is Zork Zero an RPG
>with it's stats and combat, and if these elements were removed leaving
>a virtually identical game, would it someone not be an RPG anymore? I
>really hope your definition includes more than just these elements.
I haven't played Zork Zero, so I can't really comment. I'd guess that it
is simply a fancy adventure game.
>What did Adventure give you? You could take on the persona of the
>adventurer. Sure, you only got one choice, but many things considered
>RPG's do that.
What persona? You manipulated a completely anonymous and featureless
entity about a fantasy environment, doing little but picking up and
dropping various objects. No character at all to that. Sure, you could
imagine that you were an intrepid explorer, but I could imagine that
I was a cow, and the game played the same.
>Sure, combat was limited, but if someone came out with
>the My Dinner With Andre RPG, would it fail the test because of that?
Yes, unless you developed a "dinner table argument resolution system".
Without conflict, you don't really have an RPG, just an interactive (or
not) storytelling experience.
>What about more complex and better adventure games, such as Curses?
>Is that less of an RPG than Rogue?
Never heard of Curses. If it is an adventure game, it probably is not
an RPG as well.
>And there was certainly much more role playing in Adventure than
>in Temple of Apshai and Wizardry, the first games I remember that
>might fit your definition.
Of course there wasn't. I do not know how you could possibly think
this. In Wizardry, you could name your characters, give them different
"jobs" (classes), races, equipment, and so on. Vastly more than in adventure
(which had none of this at all).
Wizardry is in fact one of the first computer RPGs ever, though I
think Apshai predates, and Telengard may as well (if it is the very
D&Dish one I am thinking of).
Brent Krupp (flet...@u.washington.edu)
http://weber.u.washington.edu/~fletcher/
"In the faculty of writing nonsense, stupidity is no match for genius."
-- Walter Bagehot
Michael Carmack
: mcar...@freenet.columbus.oh.us (Michael Carmack) writes:
: > I think you'll get a lot of varying answers, but here's my general definition.
: You said "general". Does this mean there are exceptions?
Yes, there are bound to be some exceptions. Most of the time I have trouble
when a game borrows elements from other game genres, such as the so-called
"action-RPGs" on console systems. Legend of Zelda plays like a video
game, but it has many RPG-like elements, for example.
: > In an RPG, the player gets a chance to create his character to suit
: > his/her tastes. At minimum this involves choosing a name, and ideally a
: > race, class, even a picture if the graphics can support it.
: What about "rpg" games where you are given a character to start with
: (or multiple ones). What about ones where you have a small set of
: characters to choose from rather than create your own? Al'Qadim,
: The Genie's Curse didn't give you a character choice, and most would
: call that RPG (probably says that on the box). I guess there are
: exceptions to this rule.
I mentioned this in my original post. I have trouble calling these RPGs,
although I understand why they are. I used Betrayal at Krondor as an
example of one I have trouble with. But Al'Qadim -- no problem. It is
NOT a full RPG, but I'm willing to call it an action-RPG. (I'm playing it
right now as a matter of fact, and my first impression of it was, "Wow, an
Arabian Legend of Zelda!")
: > There should
: > be some numerical statistics involved to the character, including
: > strength, intelligence, agility, hit points, etc. (They could be called
: > something else, of course, but we all know what they mean.)
: Hmm, there are probably some non-computer RPG's that don't have
: these... What does "Amber" use? I take it this is optional too.
Can't say I've played more than a handful of pen-n-paper RPGs, and that
was many many years ago. But we are talking about CRPGs here (I thought
that was understood, this is a computer games newsgroup after all). The
game aspects that classify a game as a CRPG are bound to differ from a true
pen-n-paper RPG. (This Amber game, it it based on Roger Zelazny's Amber
series of books?)
: > Some or all
: > of these statistics should be able to improve over time, e.g. by gaining
: > experience levels or some other method of advancement.
: Why is this integral to RPG's? (and not just computer ones) Sure,
: it's ubiquitous, but surely it doesn't need to be required.
I think it is required, but that's strictly a game design issue. Small
boons such as hit point raises and new spells give a player a feeling of
growth. It's also a simple way to set goals, e.g. have a really cool
magic item guarded by a monster too powerful to defeat until the character
reaches a higher level.
: > You should be able
: > to equip your character(s) with different weapons and armor which will
: > affect your luck in combat.
: Unless of course, you roleplay something that doesn't deal with
: combat. Pen-and-paper RPG's certainly don't require combat.
: (talking RPG here, most CRPG's are *soley* combat)
They don't require it, but I think most RPG-players want *some* combat.
It's usually interesting for the first half of the game while you're
trying to figure out what the heck is going on. But once you've
established some solid goals, or once you've become so immensely powerful
that nothing can stop you (poor game design in this case), then the combat
only gets in the way.
: > Finally, you need to have some interaction
: > with NPCs, even if it's as basic as getting the quests from the kings in
: > Ultima I.
: Guess this rules out Rogue, Temple of Apshai, Wizardry(?), and plenty
: of others.
Never played Rogue. Temple of Apshai I played for an hour on my ancient
Apple ][ before I trashed that piece of crap. And Wizardry did have some
very basic interaction, i.e. with the shopkeeper, the priests in the
temple, even the monsters (you could try to be nice to them and avoid
combat, as I recall). This is VERY basic, but that's what I meant.
: > I really don't see a need for much combat, except as a means to
: > gain experience and to make the game more exciting.
: Gosh, to gain experience? Most role playing games give experience
: in other ways (ie, for having good play sessions, completing
: adventures, or for just role playing well).
Again, let's stick to CRPGs. There are simply a lot of aspects to real
RPGs that CRPGs cannot yet implement. (Someday, though...)
The only CRPGs to date that I've played that grant experience for anything
other than combat are: 1) Ultima Underworld 1 and 2 grant experience for
mapping new parts of the dungeon. This is excellent, but still most of
your expernece comes from combat. 2) Al'Qadim grants XP for fulfilling
sub-quests, but most of the time it seems rather arbitrary and pointless.
But then again, I think it plays more like a video game than an RPG; the
entire stats system seems tacked on just to give it the AD&D flavor.
: I can think of exceptions to all of these rules for games
: that some consider CRPG's (or even real paper RPG's). I guess
: it still boils down to "I can't describe it, but I'll know it
: when I see it".
There will always be exceptions and other opinions. I can live with that,
as I said these are what I go by. But it seems to be like you're unfairly
expecting CRPGs to look, act, feel, and play like a real RPG. You'll
NEVER find a good CRPG by that criteria.
Darin Johnson
> I guess I am saying that when I hear the term RPG, I think
> of games like AD&D.
I'm glad you said "like" AD&D. There's still debate about whether
AD&D itself is RPG :-) :-)
> So what are are some minimum requirements for a game to be considered
> an RPG?
Computer game, or pen-and-paper RPG?
For the latter, there are real newsgroups to ask about what they are.
There are exceptions, but I would place into this group anything that
can be played with no equipment other than pen and paper (even those
are optional), and which involves having the players act out roles of
different persona for their own enjoyment (ie, performing in front of
an audience doesn't really count). Further, such acting is
improvisational, not scripted, and the players must respond in
character to various situations. And the primary purpose is for
entertainment (thus ruling out role playing in group therapy
sessions).
For a computer game, I would say anything derived primarily by
from non-computer RPG's, or influenced by such, and retaining
many aspects of such games (not just set in an RPG world).
This is always going to be a vague definition. Because notice
that most won't consider Doom to be a CRPG. But what if you had
Doom where you could vary your players stats and assign a name?
(ie, just like many CRPG's where you assign a name then *never*
see it mentioned again except when you look at your stats)
What about Hexen? You can choose between three stereotypes (bad
RPG in the real world, but typical for CRPG's)
The most you can really say is if a game has RPG elements or not.
Thus, Doom has some RPG elements, Hexen has more, Ultima games vary
from few to many RPG elements. Wizardy had very few elements, but
felt a lot like the early primitive RPG's. I suspect that in the
software industry, the definition of RPG is anything that resembles
AD&D :-(
--
Darin Johnson
djoh...@ucsd.edu
"Are you a doctor?" "No, but I watched."
mjs
I agree with this. I think that's why someone thought that Adventure for the old
Atari 2600 was an RPG. There were castles and dragons in that game. But all you
did was a find a chalice and bring it back to the castle. Where's the role
playing in that?
ncl...@bda-hp.bda.nasa.gov
>Davis; JRR Tolkein is to fantasy what Columbus is to discovering
>America. Extremely important, breakthough, whatever adjectives you
> I don't have my copies
>of the JRR trilogy, but I'm under the impression they weren't even
>printed until after WWII. I believe WOOz was made into a movie in
>either 1939 or 1940. As such, it's impossible for me to believe
>that JRR wasn't influenced by Baum's works.
>Rick
JRRT originally started writing about Middle Earth around the
time of the First World War. He wrote parts of the Hobbit in the
twenties/thirties as an adjunct to his work as a professorat Oxford
University. He gave readings of his work at meetings of the Inklings
(a writers group that included CS Lewis and others) in Oxford and
then went on to write LOTR in '40/'41. His son was training as a
fighter pilot in South Africa and was sent early drafts there.
If you look at some of the scholarly material published on LOTR you
will find that a lot of his Middle Earth background is based on
Scandanavian and Middle English myth and the Shire is reminiscent of
the area JRRT grew up in in the late 19th century.
JRRT was more influenced by the Scandanavian sagas and Middle English
tales than Frank Baum. I'm not even sure that Frank Baum's works
would have been available to him when he started writing about Middle
Earth.
Nigel J. Clarke
NASA Tracking Station BDA
Office (809) 293-1142 x 203 Fax (809) 293-6955
EMail: ncl...@bda-hp.bda.nasa.gov
Any views expressed are those of the author.
Darin Johnson
> Ditto for most of the Disney stuff. For instance Pinochio<SP?> is an Italian
> fairy tale, only it ends when Pinochio & his father are eaten by the
> whale.
You certainly weren't reading the original Collodi book then.
(granted, it's extremely different from the movie)
--
Darin Johnson
djoh...@ucsd.edu
"Look here. There's a crop circle in my ficus!" -- The Tick
James Gassaway
role playing game in human history:
<Grunt> <Ugh>
<UGH!> <GRUNT!>
sssssssWHAMMM!!!!!
<thud>
...
<grunt>
Hope all of you appreciate the amount of effort and research it took to
uncover the above transcript. :)
Dimensional Traveler
Multiversal Mercenaries. Feeding the tree of Liberty.
mjs
>In article <4bc20r$s...@ausnews.austin.ibm.com>, rtr...@netcom.com (Roger
>Tramp) writes:
>>
>>So what are are some minimum requirements for a game to be considered
>>an RPG?
>>
> You need to have control of one or more characters involved in some
>kind of adventure. The original "Adventure", the Eamon games, "Zork",
>"Wizardry", "Ultima", ... are all role-playing games. Games where the
>emphasis is upon fast action, like "Pitfall", and "Warlock"/gs are
>considered to be Arcade games, not rpg's.
> The "RPG" tag says nothing about playing time or scenario content. It
>does mean that you can expect to engage in an adventure, that you will
>have 'time to think', and that you will be able to Save and Restore your
>position.
Zork and Adventure were text adventures. Ultima and Wizardry are RPG's.
Rick_Micha...@cup.portal.com
not sure if they are talking about Elmore's pictures or the actual game,
but the earliest copyright I can find is 1974. At least this will establish
the absolute bottom year RPGs can be pushed back to. If anybody has a ref
earlier, please post it. I think it's reasonable to assume the computer
versions of RPGs could not be before the initial games came out.
As far as the IBM version of Rogue goes, the title screen gives
Michael Toy and Kenneth Arnold (I wonder if this is the same Ken Arnold
that did the music for early Ulitmas??), adapted for the IBM by Jon Lane
with significant design contributions by Glenn Wichman and scores of others.
Rick
Rick_Micha...@cup.portal.com
what an RPG is, but the only REAL definition could/should/would be
that found int the original D&D, predates AD&D. Page 2 under the title
What is "role playing"
This is a role playing game. That means
that you will be like an actor, imagining
that you are someone else, and pretending
to be that character. You won't need a
stage, though, and you won't need cos-
tumes or scripts. You only need to imag-
ine.
But as people have commented, this would include such diverse games
as simulations, Wolf 3d, Kings Quest, ... all as being RPGs. So from a
practical standpoint we all narrow our definition to the maximum
bandwidth we're willing to read in the .cprg group.
Rick
Darin Johnson
> create your character. A game without stats is often an adventure
> game, not an RPG.
Are you talking *computer* RPG's, or RPG's? I'm sure someone's
running a Fudge campaign with no stats somewhere.
> Stats that can't be viewed or manipulated ARE NOT character stats in
> any meaningful way. The point of stats being important to RPGs is that
> they *distinguish* the various characters one can play.
What about stats that only the GM can view or control? Does that
make the game less RPG? (there are undoubtedly some PBEM's run
this way)
> Without a combat system, or at least some sort of conflict resolution
> rules, it isn't an RPG. Lots of people would agree with me here. This
> is a topic that gets argued about all the time in rec.games.frp.misc,
> however.
Well, if it gets argued, it must not be so cut-and-dried then?
> >And probably a majority agree that randomness is not needed.
>
> A majority? I doubt it. Many people consider diceless "role-playing"
> to be simple make-believe storytelling, and barely an RPG at all.
Many? I've met few (ok, one more now). There are plenty of games
where the GM fudges all the roles, thus being halfway between random
and not random. Are all those choose-your-own adventure books,
advertised as RPG, not RPG if you don't use any randomness?
> Without
> a random element in a computer game, you are left with an adventure game.
> That is one of the biggest distinctions between RPGs and adventure games:
> in an adventure game, you can pretty much do the exact same thing every
> time you play, and always win. RPGs are much less predictable and
> usually have a more free-form nature.
What do you call an adventure game that has randomness then? What
makes RPG's less predictable is that the players and GM are
unpredictable, not some roll of the dice. Adventures are predictable,
because you can't say "ok, we skip the little white house and head
to Bermuda". In this sense, there no less predictable than your
typical SSI RPG computer game.
> People would be over-simplifying. Al'Qadim is a rather hybrid game --
> almost an action game with RPG elements, rather than a true RPG.
> It fails to be a true RPG in part because you have no control over what
> character you play and the rather simplistic inventory and magic system
> is quite arcade-game-like.
Inventory and magic systems are now part of the definition?
I beg to differ on Al'Qadim. It is very much an RPG. RPG doesn't
require you to choose your character, only that you play the role.
There was certainly much more role playing than there was in Bard's
Tale.
> >What about
> >Doom, Dark Forces, or Marathon? Some people think they're role
> >playing. On the other hand, there are quite a few people that think
> >nothing from SSI is even close to being an RPG.
>
> Some people are extremely stupid. This adds nothing to your argument.
Huh, so anyone with those views is stupid? My point was that there
*are* people with those views, and that you can't just dismiss them
because you have your own definition of RPG that conflicts with theirs.
> I haven't played Zork Zero, so I can't really comment. I'd guess that it
> is simply a fancy adventure game.
Why? You have stats. You can view them. You can't change them, but
many computer RPG's don't let you change the stats either. You can
do combat to defeat the opponents, or figure out easier ways to get
past them. Sure, you don't have a dungeon crawl...
> What persona? You manipulated a completely anonymous and featureless
> entity about a fantasy environment, doing little but picking up and
> dropping various objects. No character at all to that. Sure, you could
> imagine that you were an intrepid explorer, but I could imagine that
> I was a cow, and the game played the same.
Gosh, Wizardry felt like I was playing a cow too. Rogue was defintely
a game where you played an amphibian. We're just quibbling over
quality of role playing here.
> >Sure, combat was limited, but if someone came out with
> >the My Dinner With Andre RPG, would it fail the test because of that?
>
> Yes, unless you developed a "dinner table argument resolution system".
> Without conflict, you don't really have an RPG, just an interactive (or
> not) storytelling experience.
No, you have role playing. Maybe not a role playing *game*, but
you have role playing. Of course, you need a conflict resolution
method, but if this consists of requiring the players to use diplomacy
instead of dice, does this make it less of an RPG?
> >What about more complex and better adventure games, such as Curses?
> >Is that less of an RPG than Rogue?
>
> Never heard of Curses. If it is an adventure game, it probably is not
> an RPG as well.
It's an adventure, and it's very involved. You don't pick your
character, but damn it, it's a lot more fleshed out and gets to
do more than your "@" in rogue.
> Wizardry is in fact one of the first computer RPGs ever, though I
> think Apshai predates, and Telengard may as well (if it is the very
> D&Dish one I am thinking of).
And rogue predates all of those as well (and was influenced by D&D).
--
Darin Johnson
djoh...@ucsd.edu
"You used to be big."
"I am big. It's the pictures that got small."
Rick_Micha...@cup.portal.com
I hoped the analogy to Columbus discovering the Americas would make this
clear, but I can see it hasn't.
The original post made comments to the effect of JRRT being the father of
the gen're of Fantasy Worlds. His work was both original & of a higher
quality then that which came before, but it wasn't the first.
I see the print media at the turn of the century roughly equivalent to
our mass media outlets are now. The powers that be, then as now, were
not known for their risk taking ability. I think Baum was refused publication
literally dozens of times before his first book was published. Why? Because
there had never been a fantasy book like it published before so they
couldn't be sure there was a market.
When LoR & The Hobbit were published, the fantasy gen're market had already
been established for decades! I only take exception to people implying
JRRT creaated the gen're vs advancing it. For me, it's akin to saying
George Lucas invented Sci Fi because of Star Wars. It doesn't diminish
Lucas's work to admit Sci Fi themes had been around since as long
as movies themselves, just gives credit to the USA, German, French,
silent film makers that came first.
Rick
Mischa E Gelman
Darin Johnson <djoh...@tartarus.ucsd.edu> wrote:
>d...@thinkage.on.ca (David Adrien Tanguay) writes:
>> What's the distinction between "adventure game" and RPG? I think it's a bit
>> fuzzy. You'll probably find that RPGs evolved out of adventures. The missing
>> links might be hard to classify as one or the other.
>
>And pen-paper RPG's evolved out of miniature war games (the big
>difference between the two there being scale). But I think D&D really
>invented the concept and the term RPG (argh, I hate giving TSR credit
>for anything)
developed RPGs from wargames, as you mentioned. Both were kicked out of
T$$$R and have had their new materials wrecked by TSR lawyers.
--
Ron Luciano: I remember one time Catfish Hunter moved the team's right
fielder, Roy White, about 7 steps closer to the foul line.Then, after thinking
about it, he moved him 3 steps back towards center.Unfortunately,the batter hit
a tremondous home run - but it did go directly over Roy White's head.
Mischa E Gelman
>>> came out. It is not an RPG. The context has nothing to do with it.
>>
>>Why not? RPG does not mean there have to be stats. Pray tell, what
>>is the official definition then, if it isn't "a game that deals with
>>playing a role"? Or is this a "I can't describe it, but I'll know
>>it when i see it"?
>
>Actually, an RPG pretty much *does* have to have stats, so as to better
>create your character. A game without stats is often an adventure
>game, not an RPG.
I think I have to agree - even diceless games like Everway still require
stats. But there is a difference between the character being the stats
and being a seperate entity.
>Without a combat system, or at least some sort of conflict resolution
>rules, it isn't an RPG. Lots of people would agree with me here. This
>is a topic that gets argued about all the time in rec.games.frp.misc,
>however.
Never seen it there - but who better to know? If some RPGers think RPGs
don't require combat, then I think they do not. I would notlike an RPG
wo/ combat that much, but if some people play them then fine.
>>And probably a majority agree that randomness is not needed.
>
>A majority? I doubt it. Many people consider diceless "role-playing"
>to be simple make-believe storytelling, and barely an RPG at all.
Diceless doesn't equal no randomness. Everway, for example, uses a Tarot
sort of randomness in place of dice.
>in an adventure game, you can pretty much do the exact same thing every
>time you play, and always win. RPGs are much less predictable and
>usually have a more free-form nature.
RPGs shouldn't have winning. Ask anyone on any rec.games.frp.* group.
>>Sure, combat was limited, but if someone came out with
>>the My Dinner With Andre RPG, would it fail the test because of that?
>
>Yes, unless you developed a "dinner table argument resolution system".
>Without conflict, you don't really have an RPG, just an interactive (or
>not) storytelling experience.
But you're playing a role. Some people I've seen claim the best RPGs
they've played have been ones where the entire session was spent on
coversation and interaction between the PCs, no resolution system of any
kind.
>Wizardry is in fact one of the first computer RPGs ever, though I
>think Apshai predates
Apshai didn't let you have a class, race or most of the stuff you
mentioned gave Wizardry its RPG status.
RUBYWAND
been somewhat diffused. Today, a "role-playing game" means that you will
engage in an adventure, that you will have 'time to think' (any "action"
sequences are secondary), and that your position can Saved and Restored.
The first computer RPG? Who can tell. "Adventure" seems to be the
first such game to be widely available (via TimeShare, etc. in the
mid-70's).
For now, the most useful computer game descriptors are terms like "D&D
adventure", "action-adventure", "arcade", "space combat simulation", etc..
You can get more mileage from a descriptor by including the name of a
popular game. For example, Wraith (from NiteOwl) is an "Ultima-style
map/maze adventure".
Scott Wilding
>Don't give T$$$$$$$$$R credit - give it Dave Arneson and Gary Gygax who
>developed RPGs from wargames, as you mentioned. Both were kicked out of
>T$$$R and have had their new materials wrecked by TSR lawyers.
Sorry for a newbie question but, anyone know the details of what this
'kicking out' involved and when it happened?
TIA.
--
____ __ __
/ __) | || | Scott Wilding
( (__ | || | sc...@fizban.demon.co.uk
\__ \ | || |
__) ) | ^^ |
(____/ |__/\__| Not tonight dear, I have a modem.
Mischa E Gelman
Scott Wilding <sc...@fizban.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>megs...@pitt.edu (Mischa E Gelman) wrote:
>
>
>>Don't give T$$$$$$$$$R credit - give it Dave Arneson and Gary Gygax who
>>developed RPGs from wargames, as you mentioned. Both were kicked out of
>>T$$$R and have had their new materials wrecked by TSR lawyers.
>
>Sorry for a newbie question but, anyone know the details of what this
>'kicking out' involved and when it happened?
Dave Arneson was kicked out of T$R by Gygax, don't knwo the reason. He
was bought back for a short Blackmoor series after Gygax left, but has
not worked with t$R since.
Gygax was forced out when he divorced his wife. She sold off her share
of the company, making him a minority holder. He was then forced out.
He has since had I think 2 RPGs cancelled by T$R.
For more exact info, ask on rec.games.frp.dnd.
I think there are details on the r.g.f.d FAQ(Which is posted once/month
or so and which I have a link to from http://www.pitt.edu/~megst19/
Gary Sutton
: David Putnam <dpu...@allencomm.com> wrote:
: >What about Adventure for the Atari-2600 cica 1978-1979? don't quote
: >me on those dates but it seems as long ago
: Are you referring to the game where you control a little box and your goal was
: to get the chalice back to the yellow\gold castle? That brought back some fond
: memories... that was a fun game. Actually, it was the best game for the old
: 2600. No way an RPG though. I hated that DAMN bat......
I always liked trying to get to the Secret Programmer's room. BTW,
anyone remember what that little hidden dot needed to get there was
called? :)
Joseph E. Simpson
I don't believe adventure was the 1st. But did you find the hidden room in
it.
--
God is not in the details....God is in the process----- Ian malcolm
Rick_Micha...@cup.portal.com
what? It has Hunt The Wumpus on it. I'd have to double check, but I
think it's a version hacked on a CP/M box. I'm going to give it a look
today, if anybody is interested in this moldy oldy let me know. Like
people have noted, it's more adventure then RPG but if you want to
see what a thinking person's game was back in the mid '70s, this is
a good example. The only thing you have to do to make it a real time
warp is change your output from your screen to your printer! At least
for me, the information science <I guess this was before there were
computer science majors> group wouldn't let me near a CRT terminal.
Rick
csh...@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
Apple II+ called Fracas. Anybody heard of it? I believe it predates
Temple of Apshai.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
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rbs
>
> > The earliest RPG that I can recall was "Adventure" (also known as
> > Colossal Cave) written by.... uhm... the names fade into antiquity :/
>
> Was this the text adventure written by Scott Adams? I seem to remember I had a
> whole series of them (12) and that name rings a bell as the first in the
> series. This however was not an RPG by any stretch of the imagination but more
> of a text (like infocom) style type-in. This could well be the first ever
> type-in adventure game (any earlier?).
> The first RPG I can remember was Ultima I, but I'm sure I played some games
> that could be described as RPGs in good-old-fashioned Apple II low res (now
> this res is _really_ low 40x40x15 I believe...) ahhh the good old days when
> any sort of graphics was eye-popping!
>
> Maarten.
I have found a really, really old game called Demon's Winter by SSI
it is a dungeons & dragons game that isn't even Advanced Dungeons &
Dragons. I haven't played it but it looks like worse than CGA graphics
& I dread to think waht year it was played, this could certainly be
one of the oldest RPGs made.
TBS
Jason L Tibbitts III
r> I have found a really, really old game called Demon's Winter by SSI it
r> is a dungeons & dragons game that isn't even Advanced Dungeons &
r> Dragons.
It came out in 1988. It has absolutely, positively nothing to do with
Dungeons & Dragons rules. It has a skill point based system where any
class could learn any of the 31 skills, but each of the ten classes could
learn certain skills using fewer points. You had to find the places to buy
the skills. You could find a place to manufacture custom magic weapons for
literally tons of gold, too. It was really quite nice for its time.
Gameplay was pretty lame (overhead view, two scales, little character
interaction), but the combat was quite nice and has been well cloned by the
shareware game Nahlakh. The endgame (last dungeon or so) was one of the
better endings I've ever seen in an RPG.
r> I haven't played it but it looks like worse than CGA graphics &
r> I dread to think waht year it was played, this could certainly be one of
r> the oldest RPGs made.
I played it on an Amiga; it wasn't all that bad. It was written on an
Apple II and the screen shots on the box are indeed horrible. It's nowhere
near the oldest RPG given that Ultima 5 came out in the same year. You
can't use the quality of the PC graphics as a guide, since PCs had really,
really pitiful graphics until the very late 80s.
--
Jason L. Tibbitts III - ti...@uh.edu - 713/743-8684 - 221SR1
System Manager: University of Houston High Performance Computing Center
1994 PC800 "Kuroneko" DoD# 1723
Kirby Krueger
>mbdi...@waikato.ac.nz wrote:
>>
>> > The earliest RPG that I can recall was "Adventure" (also known as
>> > Colossal Cave) written by.... uhm... the names fade into antiquity :/
>>
>> Was this the text adventure written by Scott Adams? I seem to remember I had a
>> whole series of them (12) and that name rings a bell as the first in the
>> series. This however was not an RPG by any stretch of the imagination but more
>> of a text (like infocom) style type-in. This could well be the first ever
>> type-in adventure game (any earlier?).
>> The first RPG I can remember was Ultima I, but I'm sure I played some games
>> that could be described as RPGs in good-old-fashioned Apple II low res (now
>> this res is _really_ low 40x40x15 I believe...) ahhh the good old days when
>> any sort of graphics was eye-popping!
>>
>> Maarten.
>
>Dragons. I haven't played it but it looks like worse than CGA graphics
>& I dread to think waht year it was played, this could certainly be
>one of the oldest RPGs made.
> TBS
Demon's Winter isn't that old, really. I remember having it on the
commodore 64, well after things like Questron and Ultima III. Ultima I
is a good guess, although I'd want to know the date for Rogue as well,
which was an early mainframe game and wouldn't surprise me if it predated
Ultima I. Also, there's a bit of a fuzzy line on what is a RPG, as
things like Adventure (a precursor to the text-adventure games like Zork)
probably predates most things, but is clearly (to me) an inspiration and
stepping stone to modern RPGs.
The earliest thing I remember playing that was like modern RPGs, though,
was Dragonstomper, for the Atari 2600 with the weird expander that used a
cassette player. (I can't recall the name of that doodad.) This isn't
the first RPG, by far, but it was in the very early eighties - I'd
estimate 82.
--
Kirby Krueger, kir...@peak.org
<*> "Most .sigs this small can't open their own jump gate."
Michael Carmack
: The earliest thing I remember playing that was like modern RPGs, though,
: was Dragonstomper, for the Atari 2600 with the weird expander that used a
: cassette player. (I can't recall the name of that doodad.) This isn't
: the first RPG, by far, but it was in the very early eighties - I'd
: estimate 82.
I believe the "doodad" you're referring to is the Starpath Supercharger.
Erik Schultz
: csh...@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca wrote:
: : The oldest RPG I can think of was a cassette tape based game for the
: : Temple of Apshai.
: Wasn't Ultima I release on the Original Apple (Apple I)?
Never knew that there was an Apple I, but I suppose it would make sense...
Anyhow, Ultima I was a sequel to Akalbeth. I don't know when either
were released, but they are both quite old.
Tracy S. Schuhwerk
: The oldest RPG I can think of was a cassette tape based game for the
: Apple II+ called Fracas. Anybody heard of it? I believe it predates
: Temple of Apshai.
Wasn't Ultima I release on the Original Apple (Apple I)?
I had Temple of Apshai and Gateway to Apshai on my Radio Shack
Model I... that was around 1980/81. I may still have the whole
package and tape for the Apshai games packed away down with the
old Model I (yeah... I know... The Boston Computer Museum got
someone elses before I could donate mine! :-)).
-- Tracy Schuhwerk
home: tr...@amiga.iac.net
Erik Schultz
: I have found a really, really old game called Demon's Winter by SSI
: it is a dungeons & dragons game that isn't even Advanced Dungeons &
: Dragons. I haven't played it but it looks like worse than CGA graphics
: & I dread to think waht year it was played, this could certainly be
: one of the oldest RPGs made.
I believe that Demon's Winter was a sequel to Shard of Spring, which I
have for my old C128. I imagine that the IBM version was crap...they
ususally were back in those days.
Dick Menninger
games written for the early CRTs using the character-oriented screens.
Rogue is a prime candidate and its descendents still use that style
of screen. My son learned C just to find bugs in one of the spin-offs
that was more sophisticated and that was around 1980. Adventure
games predate that and were written for paper terminals (that is why
they were text-based).
> ==========Michael Carmack, 1/3/96==========
Good Day
Dick
Dick.Me...@DaytonOH.ATTGIS.COM
Derek Chan
Wizardy by Sir-Tech for Apple II+ back in 1978 or earlier. It was a full
text base RPG written in pascal. The first RPG with graphic was Dungon
Master by Interplay for the Commandor 64.
Once again, there could be some other games earlier than these two. If
someone know the real answer, feel free E-Mail me the answer.
Thanx in advance!
Derek
Douglas Bennett
>
>Tracy S. Schuhwerk (tr...@amiga.iac.net) wrote:
>: : The oldest RPG I can think of was a cassette tape based game for
the
>: : Apple II+ called Fracas. Anybody heard of it? I believe it
predates
>: : Temple of Apshai.
>:
>: Wasn't Ultima I release on the Original Apple (Apple I)?
>
sense...
> Anyhow, Ultima I was a sequel to Akalbeth. I don't know when either
>were released, but they are both quite old.
>
Akalabeth and Ultima I were both written in an early, archaic
Basic. For Basic, it was a good game!
Phil Priest
> csh...@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca wrote:
> : The oldest RPG I can think of was a cassette tape based game for the
> : Apple II+ called Fracas. Anybody heard of it? I believe it predates
> : Temple of Apshai.
>
> Wasn't Ultima I release on the Original Apple (Apple I)?
>
> I had Temple of Apshai and Gateway to Apshai on my Radio Shack
> Model I... that was around 1980/81. I may still have the whole
> package and tape for the Apshai games packed away down with the
> old Model I (yeah... I know... The Boston Computer Museum got
> someone elses before I could donate mine! :-)).
>
> -- Tracy Schuhwerk
> home: tr...@amiga.iac.net
>
I seem to remember that Richard Garriot came out with Alkabeth on the Apple
I around '79?
David Empson
> Tracy S. Schuhwerk (tr...@amiga.iac.net) wrote:
> : csh...@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca wrote:
> : : The oldest RPG I can think of was a cassette tape based game for the
> : : Apple II+ called Fracas. Anybody heard of it? I believe it predates
> : : Temple of Apshai.
> :
> : Wasn't Ultima I release on the Original Apple (Apple I)?
>
The Apple I was only sold in kitset form (motherboard was supplied, but
the keyboard, case and power supply had to be sourced elsewhere).
Some later ones may have been supplied with a case, keyboard and power
supply. About 400 were made. This would have been in 1976, and
pre-dates the formation of Apple Computer, Inc.
It is not compatible with the Apple II. It does use a 6502
microprocessor, and was the basis for the Apple II. It had about 4K
of RAM and 256 bytes of ROM (containing a very simple monitor). Woz
wrote Integer BASIC on the Apple I, and keyed it in by hand (in hex)
each time he wanted to use it!
Ultima I was certainly never released for the Apple I. It was written
mostly in Applesoft BASIC, so it required at least an Apple ][+
(released in 1978) or an Apple ][ with an Applesoft ROM card.
--
David Empson
dem...@actrix.gen.nz
Snail mail: P.O. Box 27-103, Wellington, New Zealand
Bob
I understand, the precursor to Ultima. (Now called Ultima I). It came
out on the Apple II in about '78. Wizardry came out in 1981.
Yes, I too remember loading Scott Adams adventures in off cassette tape..
but they were hardly anything close to RPGs.
--
Bob Luce "Il faut supporter deux ou trois chenilles
System/News Administrator si on veut connaitre les papillons.."
<r...@gymnet.com> - Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Michael Carmack
: I could be wrong. As far as I can remember, the first fantasy RPG was
: Wizardy by Sir-Tech for Apple II+ back in 1978 or earlier. It was a full
: text base RPG written in pascal. The first RPG with graphic was Dungon
: Master by Interplay for the Commandor 64.
I don't know what game YOU were playing, but MY Wizardry had plenty of
graphics (dungeons, monsters, chests, etc.)
Mark Krischer
>The earliest thing I remember playing that was like modern RPGs, though,
>was Dragonstomper, for the Atari 2600 with the weird expander that used a
>cassette player. (I can't recall the name of that doodad.) This isn't
>the first RPG, by far, but it was in the very early eighties - I'd
>estimate 82.
when did the temple of apshai stuff come out from epyx? where did that fit in
it relation to say ultima 1?
i'd say the guess about rogue being the first sounds like the best answer so
far. (or which ever was first: rogue, nethack, moria....)
--mark
Tracy S. Schuhwerk
: In article <4cfkjd$e...@netaxs.com>, Erik Schultz <hik...@netaxs.com> wrote:
: > Tracy S. Schuhwerk (tr...@amiga.iac.net) wrote:
: > : csh...@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca wrote:
: > : : The oldest RPG I can think of was a cassette tape based game for the
: > : : Apple II+ called Fracas. Anybody heard of it? I believe it predates
: > : : Temple of Apshai.
: > : Wasn't Ultima I release on the Original Apple (Apple I)?
: > Never knew that there was an Apple I, but I suppose it would make sense...
: The Apple I was only sold in kitset form (motherboard was supplied,
: but the keyboard, case and power supply had to be sourced
: elsewhere). Some later ones may have been supplied with a case,
: keyboard and power supply. About 400 were made. This would have been
: in 1976, and pre-dates the formation of Apple Computer, Inc.
An excellent history lesson! Thanks!
: It is not compatible with the Apple II. It does use a 6502
: microprocessor, and was the basis for the Apple II. It had about 4K
: of RAM and 256 bytes of ROM (containing a very simple monitor). Woz
: wrote Integer BASIC on the Apple I, and keyed it in by hand (in hex)
: each time he wanted to use it!
: Ultima I was certainly never released for the Apple I. It was
: written mostly in Applesoft BASIC, so it required at least an Apple
: ][+ (released in 1978) or an Apple ][ with an Applesoft ROM card.
Thats what I get for trying to talk Apple... Never been an Apple
type so I just took a shot in the dark there.
As far as the TRS-80, I know that the Apshai games were some of the
earliest RPG type games there.
Andy Champ
in 1976 (!) on a DecSYSTEM 10 mainframe. It was not new then.
Andy
Darin Johnson
> i'd say the guess about rogue being the first sounds like the best answer so
> far. (or which ever was first: rogue, nethack, moria....)
Rogue was much much earlier than either (nethack is a relatively
very *recent* game, a successor to hack and all it's versions).
Hack's man page explicitly calls it a successor to rogue. I would
probably place rogue in the late 70's. (but it doesn't fit the
popular definition of rpg's, since you can't change your character)
--
Darin Johnson
djoh...@ucsd.edu
"Are you a doctor?" "No, but I watched."
John Lickman
> played this in 1976 (!) on a DecSYSTEM 10 mainframe. It was not new
> then.
Colossal Cave must be the most widely translated computer program in
history. I've seen versions running on everything from the
Sinclair/Timex ZX81 right up to IBM S/390 mainframes. I think its place
in computing history should be more widely recognised. Perhaps this
could become a new test of computer compatibility. Never mind which
version of Unix it will run, or whether it'll run NTH, is there a
version of Colossal Cave!
No CC, No Comment!
John Lickman
Darin Johnson
> Perhaps this
> could become a new test of computer compatibility. Never mind which
> version of Unix it will run, or whether it'll run NTH, is there a
> version of Colossal Cave!
There's probably no machine it can't be made to run on, provided
it has either enough internal memory or external storage. There's
certainly nothing complex technically required for it.
--
Darin Johnson
djoh...@ucsd.edu -- Toy cows in Africa