Real HP50 Specs?
Avatar_e
Interface: USB/RS232/IrDA
LCD display: 131 x of 80 pixels
2,300 math functions
4xAAA power supply
From: http://www.dynatech.de/produkte/produkt.php?prod=4143
Image: http://commerce.hpcalc.org/images/50g.jpg
-What about:
CPU speed?
Keyboard quality?
I think this is just a minor updating of hp49g+, 1 MB more flash
memory, 1 more AAA battery... same old OS, Screen, design, math
functions, etc...
The most interesting thing is RS232 compatibility for me, I thinking to
buy some hp48gII because my actual 49g+ is not programmable like data
collector or someting
John H Meyers
They seem to have a new photo of their own,
showing a detailed menu for choosing among internal applications:
http://www.dynatech.de/grafik_inc/?sizes=GG&show=4143
If they made their own photo, might they have it in stock right now?
Well, apparently not ready to ship, for the red "status" symbol
indicates "momentan nicht lieferbar" ("momentarily unavailable")
German:
http://www.dynatech.de/produkte/produkt.php?prod=4143
[r->] [OFF]
James M. Prange
The 48gII has almost RS-232 compatible I/O. From what I
understand, its signal levels are 3.3V/0V at the calculator port
itself, and it relies on a level-switcher built in to the cable to
get them to RS-232 levels. The level switching hardware relies on
being able to "steal" power from other lines in a 9-pin port, so
it won't work with a "3-wire" type RS-232 device, although by all
reports that I've seen, it does work with a standard COM port on a
PC. One could, at least in theory, make an externally-powered
adapter to go between the 48gII's cable and the other RS-232
device, and supply the power for the level-switcher.
The RS-232 on the 50g may turn out to be like the "RS-232" on the
48gII. I suppose that we'll have to wait until someone tries one
out to find out for certain.
--
Regards,
James
James M. Prange
the 49g+ (and 48gII?) before announcing a replacement.
Of course, now the cat's been let out of the bag, and noticed by
at least some.
--
Regards,
James
Jean-Yves Avenard
> I think this is just a minor updating of hp49g+, 1 MB more flash
> memory, 1 more AAA battery... same old OS, Screen, design, math
The 49G always had 2MB of Flash... 1MB being used by the OS in the 49G
and 1.2MB being used in the 49g+
JY
John H Meyers
> The 48gII has almost RS-232 compatible I/O. From what I
> understand, its signal levels are 3.3V/0V at the calculator port
> itself, and it relies on a level-switcher built in to the cable to
> get them to RS-232 levels. The level switching hardware relies on
> being able to "steal" power from other lines in a 9-pin port, so
> it won't work with a "3-wire" type RS-232 device
How about with another calculator,
E.g. another ARM-based HP calc with serial port, or an HP49G
(with or without the "serial port bug" - which mine have),
or even an HP48?
> The RS-232 on the 50g may turn out to be
> like the "RS-232" on the 48gII.
> I suppose that we'll have to wait until someone tries one out
> to find out for certain.
Do the ARM-based calcs which have serial ports
also have any IR serial ability (compatible with HP48 series?)
[r->] [OFF]
GWB
John H Meyers wrote:
> German:
> http://www.dynatech.de/produkte/produkt.php?prod=4143
>
> English:
> http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.dynatech.de/produkte/produkt.php%3Fprod%3D4143&sa=X&oi=translate
>
> [r->] [OFF]
John H Meyers wrote:
>
> German:
> http://www.dynatech.de/produkte/produkt.php?prod=4143
>
> English:
> http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.dynatech.de/produkte/produkt.php%3Fprod%3D4143&sa=X&oi=translate
>
> [r->] [OFF]
Hey, have you noticed the 3-year warranty? Does this mean we can expect
a trouble-free keyboard?
I purchased my HP-49G only about six months ago. Contrary to what I had
read, it's an excellent calculator. Even the rubber keys are not a
problem (the only thing I disliked is the shifted EVAL and ' keys). Now
that the keyboard issue on the 49G+ has finally been solved, I was
intending to get one. Perhaps I should wait for the new 50G...
Regards,
Gerson.
Han
Han
Wes
Anybody remember the "Osborne Effect" ?
>From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osborne_effect
"The Osborne effect is exhibited when a company's revelation of
information about future products results in customers delaying
purchases of the current offering. Its origin is a purported suicidal
marketing mistake made by the Osborne Computer Corporation in the 1980s
when its announcement of a successor to its Osborne 1 system led to a
sharp reduction in sales and the delay of the successor system created
a revenue vacuum from which the company did not recover."
-wes
James M. Prange
> On Sat, 17 Jun 2006 04:03:15 -0500, James M. Prange wrote:
>
>> The 48gII has almost RS-232 compatible I/O. From what I
>> understand, its signal levels are 3.3V/0V at the calculator port
>> itself, and it relies on a level-switcher built in to the cable to
>> get them to RS-232 levels. The level switching hardware relies on
>> being able to "steal" power from other lines in a 9-pin port, so
>> it won't work with a "3-wire" type RS-232 device
>
> How about with another calculator,
> E.g. another ARM-based HP calc with serial port,
I don't have a 48gII, so anything that I write about it is from
what I've read and what I guess, not from experimentation.
I expect that with a special cable, or cable(s) plus adapter(s),
to make the connections correctly, a 48gII should work with
another 48gII without any level shifters, and for that matter,
with any device that uses the same signal levels. I'm pretty sure
that Cyrille (or maybe Jean-Yves?) mentioned this when the issue
came up. Of course, each device's TD (Transmit Data) line should
connect to the other device's RD (Receive Data) line, with SG
(Signal Ground) straight through to the other SG.
Or using the special cables supplied with the 48gIIs, one could
make a special adapter, with power externally supplied, to go
between them and supply the power for the level shifters. This
assumes that the level shifter gets it power from the DTR (Data
Terminal Ready) and/or RTS (Request To Send) lines with SG as
ground. My plan would be to connect DTR and RTS of both calculator
cables to the external power source's positive side, and SG of
both calculator cables to the external power source's negative
side. The voltage should be anywhere from 5V to 15V; a standard 9V
battery seems good to me. Of course each calculator's TD line
should connect to the other calculator's RD line.
But with a pair of 48gIIs, (or 49g+es, or a 49g+ and a 48gII) the
most obvious way to get them to communicate would be to simply use
IrDA. No cable required; simply aim them at each other while
they're pretty close together.
> or an HP49G
> (with or without the "serial port bug" - which mine have),
> or even an HP48?
As far as I know, except for the "serial port hardware bug" in
early 49G units, the 49G signal levels are the same as in the 48
series.
Using the 48gII with the level shifter built in to its cable, one
could again build a special adapter to supply external power to
the level shifter, and from there it would be just a matter of
connecting the adapter to the 48 series (or 49G). For this case,
it wouldn't be necessary to connect the DTR and RTS lines at the
48 series (or 49G) side.
For making such an externally powered adapter for connecting a
48gII to other RS-232 compatible devices, I'd think it best to
leave DTR and RTS unused on the connector to the other device,
just in case they actually make some connection within the other
device.
Without the level shifter in the supplied cable, I don't know, but
I doubt it. According to the "HP 48 I/O Technical Interfacing
Guide", the 48 series TX (transmit) signal swing is +/-3.0V
minimum, +/-3.5V typical. What applying -3.5V (or even -3.0V)
directly to the 48gII's port would do to it, I don't know; it
would certainly seem to be an "unexpected condition". Also, the 48
series (or 49G) might see it as a short from TX to SG; it *should*
be able to withstand this, but a 49G with the "serial port
hardware bug" may not. The expected signal on the 48 series RX
(receive) line is +1.0 to +15.0 for a space bit, and for a mark
bit, -15V to (depending on which document I read) "0.3" or ".03",
I guess positive. For all I know, the 48gII signal might also be
inverted, that is, 0V for a space and +3.3V for a mark. I suppose
that it *might* work; is anyone brave (or rich) enough to
experiment with this?
>> The RS-232 on the 50g may turn out to be
>> like the "RS-232" on the 48gII.
>> I suppose that we'll have to wait until someone tries one out
>> to find out for certain.
I'm hoping that on the 50g, the level shifter will be internal to
the calculator, and not need to "steal" power from the other
RS-232 compatible device, which may not be equipped to supply it.
We'll see.
> Do the ARM-based calcs which have serial ports
> also have any IR serial ability (compatible with HP48 series?)
I rather doubt it. I expect that the IR of the 48gII is the same
as of that of the 49g+.
As I understand it, the IrDA signal level for transmit and IrDA
sensitivity for receive are both intentionally low in the 49g+ and
48gII, resulting in a maximum range of about 100mm for an IrDA
connection to a "standard power" IrDA device or for printing to an
82240A/B printer, and about 60mm for an IrDA connection between a
pair of calculators. I don't know the range for an IrDA connection
to a "low-power" IrDA device, but it seems reasonable to assume
somewhere between 60mm and 100mm.
As we know, the IR receive sensitivity for the 48 series is
intentionally low.
It seems to me that even if the IR signal timing were compatible
with the 48 series, the 49g+'s and 48gII's low transmitted IR
signal level combined with the 48 series' low IR sensitivity would
prevent communication.
Note that I've tried "printing" via IR from a 49g+ to a 48 series
running the INPRT program to capture the transmission, without any
success. Of course INPRT works when "printing" from another 48
series, and a 49g+ does print successfuly to an 82204A/B, although
the range is much lower than with a 48 series.
It seems to me that it might have been possible to restore the
transmitted signal level and receiver sensitivity to allow for
communication with the 48 series, and to allow for a longer range
to the 82240A/B printers, but keeping them low for IrDA. But maybe
that would be more difficult than I'd expect, or maybe it wasn't
considered important enough.
All of this range restriction on the IR communications, and
removing IR from some models, is simply to keep the "educational
community" satisfied that these devices won't be easy to use for
surreptitious communications.
The IrDA specification calls for a range of 0.2m between a pair of
"low power" devices, 0.3m between a "low power" device and a "high
power" device, and 1.0m between a pair of "high power" devices.
Would the "educational community" really object to these
capabilities? If so, then it seems to me that we have some very
paranoid educators. Besides, my sister and brother-in-law tell me
that their students simply try to get away with using the "text
messaging" capabilities of their cell phones. I suppose that using
calculators would be less obvious, but even a 1.0m range seems
pretty restrictive, and having the calculators within 0.2m and
pointed at each other would seem rather obvious to me.
I'd be very happy if the 50g would communicate with the 48 series
via IR, and have the range to the printers restored, but rather
surprised.
--
Regards,
James
Avatar_e
> I'd be very happy if the 50g would communicate with the 48 series
> via IR, and have the range to the printers restored, but rather
> surprised.
>
> --
> Regards,
> James
49g+ and maybe 50g IrDA capability is far away from 48 series IR. In
HP48 the IR works like a wireless serial port, but in 49g+ is like a
real server-client communication... as far as I now.
James M. Prange
[James M. Prange wrote the following, not John H Meyers]
>> I'd be very happy if the 50g would communicate with the 48 series
>> via IR, and have the range to the printers restored, but rather
>> surprised.
>>
>> --
>> Regards,
>> James
>
> 49g+ and maybe 50g IrDA capability is far away from 48 series IR.
Well yes, IrDA communication is indeed quite different from the 48
series "Serial IR", particularly in the matter of the IrDA
protocols' added transfer control information. An analogous
situation would be trying to use XMIT and SRECV on one calculator,
but a Kermit or Xmodem file transfer protocol on the other device.
It should be simple enough to just leave out all of the extra
control information that's added for IrDA. But note that the byte
encoding is very similar. One difference is that the 48 transmits
two stop bits and IrDA only one; this shouldn't matter because
IrDA would treat the second received stop bit as an idle
condition, and the 48 needs only at least one stop bit when
receiving. There is a speed difference; as far as I know, the IrDA
as implemented in the 49g+ has 9600bps as its lowest speed,
although the IrDA specification allows for speeds down to 2400bps,
and the 48 always uses 2400bps for its serial IR. A possible
difference would be in the pulse widths. I suppose that it
shouldn't be too difficult to drop the 49g+'s rate to 2400bps and
make sure that the pulse width would be compatible with the 48
series. Another issue would be signal strength and sensitivity; I
don't think that it would be that hard to arrange for them to be
switched between two levels in hardware. It may well require some
extra hardware, perhaps to get that low of a signal rate for the
UART, and for pulse width conditioning and signal strength
switching between the UART and the IR transmitter/receiver, but I
do think that it would be feasible. Whether it would be worthwhile
is another question, and apparently HP thought not, although it
did go to the trouble of making "RedEye" IR transmission, which
uses a very different byte encoding, available for the 82240A/B
printers.
> In
> HP48 the IR works like a wireless serial port, but in 49g+ is like a
> real server-client communication... as far as I now.
Well, that's because of the IrDA transfer protocols, just as with
a file transfer protocol using RS-232 communications, one device
can be the server and the other the client. Note that with a pair
of 49g+es, you can send data back and forth via IrDA, even with
just XMIT and SRECV, as long as you're careful not to overrun the
input buffers; which one is the client and which one is the
server? With IrDA, the client-server roles can be negotiated;
they're not fixed as they are with USB.
What we're talking about is doing away with the IrDA protocol
overhead, and transferring just data bytes, or if a file transfer
protocol is used, also any control information used by the
protocol.
--
Regards,
James
rsch...@comcast.net
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HP-49G_Plus
48 like keyboard and solid plastic face. That alone sounds like a major
improvement to me! :-)
John H Meyers
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osborne_effect
It all depends on whether the postponement of purchases of
(or switching to) competitors' products does more good than
postponement of purchases of one's own products does harm.
Microsoft seems always to have bet that
announcing future Windows versions is good for them;
will the postponement of Vista mean an end to Microsoft?
I'm not about to buy XP (to upgrade 2K),
but it's not because of holding out for Vista :)
Another consideration is whether free or inexpensive upgrades
are available, which is a possibility at least for software,
and perhaps with a trade-in program for a discount on hardware;
it's a certainty that next year will see a "new product release"
for every automobile, yet the manufacturers (and dealers)
have found some strategy for survival
(like making them to not last too long :)
For some products, the older models are sometimes more desired,
even for real use, rather than simply collecting,
as seems to be the case with older HP calculator prices soaring.
This is countered by having upward compatibility
without downward compatibility,
so that once you migrate and develop new-model-only apps,
these desirable apps (e.g. HPGCC or internal "ARM-assisted"
common Saturn code) can't be used on older hardware.
If a product is a huge leap forward, advance announcement
and long backlogs on delivery are sometimes not harmful at all --
the brand new HP35 originally sold like hotcakes,
even though back-ordered for quite a while.
If our calculators don't wear out fast enough
and don't get substantially improved, however,
why would we ever replace our old ones?
For the fate of the ultimate product (and its entire industry), see:
"The Man in the White Suit" [Alec Guinness, Joan Greenwood]
http://www.dvdjournal.com/quickreviews/m/maninthewhitesuit.q.shtml
http://www.film.u-net.com/Movies/Reviews/Man_White_Suit.html
http://www.screenonline.org.uk/film/id/441408 [video clips online]
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0044876
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/6303209971
[r->] [OFF]
Harold Climer
I remember this happening in the late 70's and early 80's when
people were changing from analog to digital displays. Our department
got really good deals on analog displays for our Nuclear Lab.( Almost
80% off the retail prices) because everybody wanted the new digital
display units.
Harold A. Climer
Dept,Of Physics,Geology & Astronomy
U.T.Chattanooga
Room 318 Grote Hall
615 McCallie Ave
Chattanooga TN 37403
423-425-4546
TranslucentAmoebae
Avatar_e wrote:
> 2.5 MB user memory (512 KB RAM and 2 MB Flash)
> Interface: USB/RS232/IrDA
> LCD display: 131 x of 80 pixels
> 2,300 math functions
> 4xAAA power supply
>
> From: http://www.dynatech.de/produkte/produkt.php?prod=4143
> Image: http://commerce.hpcalc.org/images/50g.jpg
>
buttons to something brighter than pee snow white and dead blood
red...!!!
TranslucentAmoebae
does the USB interface capibility mean that you can plug in one of
those tiny hard drives...???
Avatar_e
TranslucentAmoebae ha escrito:
Chips
company that makes up names for their paint colors.
GC
"TranslucentAmoebae" <transa...@seanet.com> wrote in message
news:1151024996.2...@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Joe Horn
> I would just guess that [TA is] not one of the people
> who works for a paint company that makes up
> names for their paint colors.
For the record, we all owe TA an unpayable debt of gratitude for
inventing the hilarious and now famous name for the color of the HP
49G: "Frozen Hamster Butt". Every time I see a 49G, that inspired name
pops into my head and makes me laugh.
-jkh-
Veli-Pekka Nousiainen
Funny - because I named it "Blue Lightning" because of the speed
The ML coded applications were so unbelievable fast
The Metakernelized 48 took me by suprice in the 49G form
BLUE LIGHTNING
John H Meyers
> does the USB interface capibility mean that
> you can plug in one of those tiny hard drives...???
"USB does not support peer to peer comunication.
One device on the bus must be a host."
The calculator isn't a host, and most likely
neither is "one of those tiny hard drives,"
which then means "no, you can't."
However (this is very interesting, compares Serial to USB):
http://www.beyondlogic.org/usb/otghost.htm
How simple is USB?
http://www.beyondlogic.org/usbnutshell/usb1.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB
Philips has a
"Universal Serial Bus single-chip host and device controller"
http://www.semiconductors.philips.com/pip/ISP1161A1-03.html
Which calculator will be the first to have that capability?
Or, how about Firewire instead of USB?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firewire
Or, how about the good old serial port?
(back again in HP50G, so it says,
but possibly needing a special cable,
just like those Sharp Wizard and TI calc folks).
[r->] [OFF]
aplnub
on the 49G+?
Is tomorrow the day the calculator comes out?
Bob
"aplnub" <er...@installuniversity.com> wrote in message
news:1151273074.0...@r2g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> Will the ORDER command be fixed on the 50G since it was half way broken
> on the 49G+?
>
>
> Is tomorrow the day the calculator comes out?
>
I just got my 50G. I'll try the ORDER command and let you know.
Bob
John H Meyers
> Will the ORDER command be fixed on the 50G
> since it was half way broken on the 49G+?
When you brought the matter up last year,
someone pointed out that
simply inserting NEWOB before ORDER
solves the (very rare) problem:
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.hp48/browse_frm/thread/929fae3177c2d287
The internal (ML) ORDER command could attempt a NEWOB itself
before getting started doing what it's always done
(and if that errors by itself, proceed anyway!),
but there's never been much motivation to try, because
the situation where this would be needed is so unusual,
at the same time it's so easy to head off via NEWOB,
and finally, did anyone ever bother to file a bug report
at bugs.hpcalc.org?
For people who wonder what this is all about,
the HP48 series had an ORDER command that simply recalls,
PURGEs and then again STO's each variable in the list,
starting from the tail end of the list; this easily
gets a short job done, but can take a mighty long time
for lists of hundreds of variables, which probably
the architects of the HP48 never expected to be common.
Mika Heiskanen (later of Parisse, Heiskanen and Fiechter,
the HP49 CAS team) then wrote a fast ML program called ORD
(found in the HP48 "Hack" library), and which now
comes built into all members of the 49G series
as the replacement for the original ORDER command.
If the list which is the argument of ORD
is embedded in a variable which needs to be moved by ORD
(which must be pretty rare,
given that no one else ever seems to have noticed the problem),
apparently the program is clever enough to recognize this
and refuse to continue, rather than to crash or wipe out memory
(I like this attitude better than "any program I haven't yet
seen cause a crash must be okay until proven otherwise" :)
But by all means, file a bug report if you think it needed;
the HP50G is said to be expected to come with flash memory,
just like the HP49G+, which would make it possible
for ROM updates to follow later, in case anyone keeps polishing
and perfecting them, which in the past has tended to be the case.
[r->] [OFF]
John H Meyers
> I just got my 50G
Pretty neat; Dynatech is still showing the
red "momentarily unavailable" symbol next to it,
but they are posting slashed prices
for the 49G+ and 48Gii:
http://www.dynatech.de/produkte/kat.php?cat=1853
http://www.dynatech.de/produkte/produkt.php?prod=4143
> Is tomorrow the day the calculator comes out?
Everyone comes out, sooner or later.
[r->] [OFF]
aplnub
casati
they show slashed prices since years already - it's the same as the
"For Sale" sign in the US ;-))
Sorry - nothing to be especially hopeful about ...
Best regards
Peter G.
Germany will win the FIFA 2006 Cup !!!
Avatar_e
There in Chile, we are away from distribution routes :-P maybe is
better wait at least 3 years to get the new hp50... with hp49g+
experience. Sooner is no better...
John H Meyers ha escrito:
John H Meyers
has updated something since I last looked:
"Estimated arrival time: Week of June 26"
But you'd never know it from:
http://www.hp.com/calculators/news
[r->] [OFF]
aplnub
to correct a simple error and make the calculator that much better.
Eric
John H Meyers
> I will file a bug report if it is not fixed in the 50G. No reason not
> to correct a simple error and make the calculator that much better.
Thanks; please vote for the DOLIST bug too (#204),
which was introduced not long ago, and leaves junk on the stack,
as well as failing to catch a bad argument.
[r->] [OFF]
aplnub
report and how can I vote for #204?
John H Meyers
> where do I fill out a bug report
bugs.hpcalc.org [beware of mean-looking bug guarding entrance :]
More of them mean-looking bugs:
http://imdb.com/title/tt0047573
[man, look how many future major TV stars in that cast,
including even Leonard Nimoy, and see the "Trivia" too]
The trailer:
http://classicscifi.com/waspPopup.html?theFile=/trailers/them.flv&wW=320&wH=255&title=Them!
waspPopup?
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