SFD1001 / PET 4032 help
Robin Harbron
So, I find a perfectly good 4032 today,
and take it home for $5. I go through
my stack of disk drives, and find two
parallel drives - a 2031LP and a SFD1001.
I hook up the 2031LP, because I figure
that's the one that's fairly 1541
compatible - unfortunately, when I power
it up, it just spins and spins, much like
many of my broken 1541's. So, I unhook
it, and hook up my SFD1001. It seems to
power up fine - so I stick a 1541 formatted
disk in it, and do a CATALOG - it spins
for a while, then the READY prompt comes
up again, and the green light on the left
turns red. So then, with the DDSD disk
in the drive, I do a
OPEN15,8,15,"JUNK,J1"
and for about 3 minutes the drive makes
happy clicking noises, just like it's
formatting the disk, although the clicking
pauses twice for about 15 seconds near
the end. But then the green light turns
red again. Then I
CLOSE15
CATALOG
and it tries to read, then gives the red
light. Then I try formatting two different
HD 5.25" disks, but it doesn't click on
those, it just runs for about 15 seconds,
then gives the red light. So, am I doing
something wrong? Do I have the right kind
of disks? Or is this disk drive prolly
just messed up too? I don't have any
PET disks to test on this at all, nor
do I have the manuals - just my C64/128
experience to rely on. What I'm ultimately
trying to do is transfer a bunch of PET
tape games onto disks which the PET can
read. Thanks!
--
Robin Harbron mac...@tbaytel.net
http://www.tbaytel.net/macbeth
Robin Harbron
Robin Harbron wrote:
> and it tries to read, then gives the red
> light. Then I try formatting two different
> HD 5.25" disks, but it doesn't click on
> those, it just runs for about 15 seconds,
> then gives the red light. So, am I doing
> something wrong? Do I have the right kind
> of disks? Or is this disk drive prolly
> just messed up too? I don't have any
> PET disks to test on this at all, nor
> do I have the manuals - just my C64/128
> experience to rely on. What I'm ultimately
> trying to do is transfer a bunch of PET
> tape games onto disks which the PET can
> read. Thanks!
Well - the mystery is solved - the solution
was threefold:
1. Took the drive apart and cleaned the heads.
2. Used DSDD disks.
3. Put the drive on the -right- hand side of
the computer.
What I find suspicious is how the drive formats
DSDD disks to 4133? blocks free! While a 1571
with the same disk only gets ~1280 blocks free?
I don't understand why the SFD1001 doesn't require
DSHD disks...
phs EDV Beratung Michael Penzkofer
Robin Harbron wrote a cry of help...
Just as I remember the SFD1001 is half a 8250-machine, this means 1 MB
for a drive and not compatibel with 4040/1541-format.
But the 4032 should include the new ROMs to use
header d0,"name,ipr" and print ds$
The "print ds$" should give you more informations about the error
occuring.
(If no new ROMS: put your commands to format to a program and add:
20 input#15,a,b$,c,d: ?a,b$,c,d)
Therefore you should be able to get more informations about the kind of
error.
Michael
Brian Strang
-> Robin Harbron wrote:
-> > and it tries to read, then gives the red
-> > light. Then I try formatting two different
-> > HD 5.25" disks, but it doesn't click on
-> > those, it just runs for about 15 seconds,
-> > then gives the red light. So, am I doing
-> > something wrong? Do I have the right kind
-> > of disks? Or is this disk drive prolly
-> > just messed up too? I don't have any
-> > PET disks to test on this at all, nor
-> > do I have the manuals - just my C64/128
-> > experience to rely on. What I'm ultimately
-> > trying to do is transfer a bunch of PET
-> > tape games onto disks which the PET can
-> > read. Thanks!
-> Well - the mystery is solved - the solution
-> was threefold:
-> 1. Took the drive apart and cleaned the heads.
-> 2. Used DSDD disks.
-> 3. Put the drive on the -right- hand side of
-> the computer.
-> What I find suspicious is how the drive formats
-> DSDD disks to 4133? blocks free! While a 1571
-> with the same disk only gets ~1280 blocks free?
-> I don't understand why the SFD1001 doesn't require
-> DSHD disks...
-> --
-> Robin Harbron mac...@tbaytel.net
-> http://www.tbaytel.net/macbeth
-> .
Hi Robin, All,
I have never used these older drives, but weren't one of these "Quad
Density" drives? If so, I have some "Verbatim DataLife" disks labeled,
2S/4D and described as Double Density and Quad Density. With 80 tracks
per side at 96 tpi.
I have about 20 boxes of 10 each, sealed in original shrink wrap. I am
willing to sell some(not all) of them to anyone who needs these.
Brian
Geoffrey Welsh
(posted to comp.sys.cbm and mailed to Robin Harbron
<mac...@tbaytel.net>)
On Tue, 30 Dec 1997 23:27:08 -0500, Robin Harbron
<mac...@tbaytel.net> wrote:
>I hook up the 2031LP, because I figure
>that's the one that's fairly 1541
>compatible
Right.
>So, I unhook
>it, and hook up my SFD1001. It seems to
>power up fine - so I stick a 1541 formatted
>disk in it, and do a CATALOG - it spins
>for a while, then the READY prompt comes
>up again, and the green light on the left
>turns red.
An SFD1001 can only read 1 megabyte double-sided diskettes formatted
by a CBM 8250 or SFD 1001 drive.
>So then, with the DDSD disk in the drive,
DDSD? DD = double density (MFM/RLL), SD = single density (FM,
obsolete). For an SFD, you want a double-sided, double-density
diskette.
>I do a OPEN15,8,15,"JUNK,J1"
Err, is there an "N" in that command somwehere?
>and for about 3 minutes the drive makes
Yes, as I recall, the format time on an 8250 or SFD is about 2 minutes
45 seconds.
>happy clicking noises, just like it's
>formatting the disk, although the clicking
>pauses twice for about 15 seconds near
>the end. But then the green light turns
>red again. Then I
>CLOSE15
>CATALOG
>and it tries to read, then gives the red
>light.
That should have worked. Tried saving something to it?
What was the error message? (Anyone: wasn't there a convenient way to
fetch the error message in BASIC 4.0?!? I've forgotten.)
>Then I try formatting two different
>HD 5.25" disks, but it doesn't click on
>those, it just runs for about 15 seconds,
>then gives the red light.
These diskettes use a higher coercivity magnetic material and the
8250/SFD is not designed to use them.
>So, am I doing something wrong?
Nope, looks like you did the right thing(s).
--
Geoffrey Welsh; crs...@inforamp.net; http://home.inforamp.net/~crs0794/
* * No one who loves freedom truly puts their own above another's * *
Geoffrey Welsh
(posted to comp.sys.cbm and mailed to brian....@bbs.axcomp.com
(Brian Strang))
On Thu, 01 Jan 1998 08:18:14 GMT, brian....@bbs.axcomp.com (Brian
Strang) wrote:
>I have never used these older drives, but weren't one of these "Quad
>Density" drives? If so, I have some "Verbatim DataLife" disks labeled,
>2S/4D and described as Double Density and Quad Density. With 80 tracks
>per side at 96 tpi.
I think that this was just an attempt to get a bit more per floppy
from consumers who didn't know any better... just like Radio Shack and
other companies sold short lengths of casette tape for relatively high
prices by calling them "data" tapes, when audio tapes worked perfectly
well. Of course, this is just a hunch.
headgap
I used to really love my SFD's! The High Density disks were a requirement.
This drive puts a strong signal down and writes to both sides of the disk.
If people would keep there drives clean they could cut out about 75% of the
alignment problems. If a drive has sit for a while the lubricant and dirt
gums up the heads.
I have a small collection of utilities you may be interested in. SFD1001
Copier is a program designed for your SFD and it is available to download
in my 64 Copier area. The CMD utilities (notably FCOPY) also works well
with the SFD. I may even have the whole disk copier up. Stop by and visit
my system via the web or telnet.
Bob Nunn - Operator Headgap
E-mail: hea...@headgap.com
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Operator Headgap BBS | V.34 Modem : (901) 759-1542
Supporting Mac, 64&128, Amiga | 33.6k Support: (901) 759-1543
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Visit our Telnet Site at: telnet://bbs.headgap.com:1474
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ph...@writeme.comm
>(posted to comp.sys.cbm and mailed to Robin Harbron
><mac...@tbaytel.net>)
>
>On Tue, 30 Dec 1997 23:27:08 -0500, Robin Harbron
><mac...@tbaytel.net> wrote:
>An SFD1001 can only read 1 megabyte double-sided diskettes formatted
>by a CBM 8250 or SFD 1001 drive.
>>So then, with the DDSD disk in the drive,
>DDSD? DD = double density (MFM/RLL), SD = single density (FM,
>obsolete). For an SFD, you want a double-sided, double-density
>diskette.
No, you want a 96tpi QUAD density disk. Available at Rat Shack.
Most DS/DD disks used in a 8250/SFD will fail within a year or less
- extremely unrealiable to use (if you can get a ds/dd to format)
>>I do a OPEN15,8,15,"JUNK,J1"
>
>Err, is there an "N" in that command somwehere?
>
>>and for about 3 minutes the drive makes
Could be a classic SFD format speed error. Format speed errors will
generally just make the drive spin forever with the red light on.
>>pauses twice for about 15 seconds near
>>the end.
This is a bad spot on the disk. SFD/8250 have a tough format
routine, that will do numerous passes over a particular track trying
to format it - sometimes the drive will hang entirely on a track it
can't format. Other times it can spend up to 30 seconds on a track.
If that happens, it is a sure sign the disk is marginal.
>>and it tries to read, then gives the red light.
Whats the error channel say?
>>So, am I doing something wrong?
Yup, using the wrong disks. Radio Shack and Midwestern diskette are
the only ones I know of that still sell 96tpi disks. Although many
people have used standard DS/DD disks - their disk libraries have
vanished or have massive read errors on them.
I have 2sfds and an 8250 with about 500 full disks 5-12 years old.
The onlys disks that have lasted without errors, are the 96tpi rat
shack ones.
Never validate a SFD/8250 disk with read errors on it...
Brett
--
-- Brett Tabke
-- ph...@writeme.com http://www.netins.net/showcase/phdss/
phs EDV Beratung Michael Penzkofer
Robin Harbron wrote:
>
> Well - the mystery is solved - the solution
> was threefold:
> 1. Took the drive apart and cleaned the heads.
> 2. Used DSDD disks.
> 3. Put the drive on the -right- hand side of
> the computer.
>
> What I find suspicious is how the drive formats
> DSDD disks to 4133? blocks free! While a 1571
> with the same disk only gets ~1280 blocks free?
> I don't understand why the SFD1001 doesn't require
> DSHD disks...
> --
As I told you before: it's a half of a 8250, the 1 MB disc of cbm!
No wonder you can't read 1541-discs..!
Michael
Wayne Borean
>Robin Harbron wrote:
>
>Well - the mystery is solved - the solution
>was threefold:
>1. Took the drive apart and cleaned the heads.
>2. Used DSDD disks.
>3. Put the drive on the -right- hand side of
> the computer.
>
>What I find suspicious is how the drive formats
>DSDD disks to 4133? blocks free! While a 1571
>with the same disk only gets ~1280 blocks free?
>I don't understand why the SFD1001 doesn't require
>DSHD disks...
Robin:
I don't knoiw how it does it either. I had an SFD at one point, and it
was a beautifull drive. Perfectly reliable, and tons of storage space.
And all on Double Density disks.
Strange - but nice. Of course getting DSDD disks these days is
difficult, but I do remember telling my friends with AT's that I could
format a DSDD to 1 meg, and they couldn't, had to buy the more
expensive DSHD disks.
Wayne
Dr. Peter Kittel
In article <g7Gr0IIe...@netins.net> ph...@writeme.comm writes:
>>(posted to comp.sys.cbm and mailed to Robin Harbron
>><mac...@tbaytel.net>)
>><mac...@tbaytel.net> wrote:
>
>>An SFD1001 can only read 1 megabyte double-sided diskettes formatted
>>by a CBM 8250 or SFD 1001 drive.
Plus the single side CBM 8050 format with 500 KB.
>>>So then, with the DDSD disk in the drive,
>
>>DDSD? DD = double density (MFM/RLL), SD = single density (FM,
>>obsolete). For an SFD, you want a double-sided, double-density
>>diskette.
>
>No, you want a 96tpi QUAD density disk. Available at Rat Shack.
>Most DS/DD disks used in a 8250/SFD will fail within a year or less
>- extremely unrealiable to use (if you can get a ds/dd to format)
Sorry, completely the wrong way round! The drives are definitely
designed to use SD material, HD or QD disks just do not work.
From my experience I even can say: Use the cheapest SD disks you
can find, the more expensive, the less reliable in these drives.
--
Best Regards, Dr. Peter Kittel // http://www.pios.de of PIOS
Private Site in Frankfurt, Germany \X/ office: peterk @ pios.de
Still severe newsfeed problems, sorry for delays.
Dr. Peter Kittel
In article <34AAC0...@tbaytel.net> Robin Harbron <mac...@tbaytel.net> writes:
>Robin Harbron wrote:
>> and it tries to read, then gives the red
>> HD 5.25" disks, but it doesn't click on
>> those, it just runs for about 15 seconds,
>> something wrong? Do I have the right kind
>
>Well - the mystery is solved - the solution
>was threefold:
>1. Took the drive apart and cleaned the heads.
>2. Used DSDD disks.
Correct. The cheaper, the better. Weird, but true.
>3. Put the drive on the -right- hand side of
> the computer.
Put it as far away from the computer, and even more important: from
the monitor, as possible.
>What I find suspicious is how the drive formats
>DSDD disks to 4133? blocks free! While a 1571
>with the same disk only gets ~1280 blocks free?
It's a totally differing format with 100 tpi (not 96!).
The 1571 is practically a double-sided 1541 format with 340 KB,
where the SFD 1001 writes 1 MB on a double-sided disk.
>I don't understand why the SFD1001 doesn't require
>DSHD disks...
It's just a question of the layout of the read/write heads.
In this case they (and the currents drawn through them) are
laid out to match the magnetic properties of SD media.
HD disks are "magnetically harder", i.e. would need higher
writing currents, which these drives are not designed for.
Jim Harvey
Wayne Borean wrote:
>
> On Wed, 31 Dec 1997 16:59:02 -0500, Robin Harbron
> <mac...@tbaytel.net> wrote:
>
> >Robin Harbron wrote:
> >
> >Well - the mystery is solved - the solution
> >was threefold:
> >1. Took the drive apart and cleaned the heads.
> >2. Used DSDD disks.
> > the computer.
> >
> >DSDD disks to 4133? blocks free! While a 1571
> >with the same disk only gets ~1280 blocks free?
> >DSHD disks...
>
>
> I don't knoiw how it does it either. I had an SFD at one point, and it
> was a beautifull drive. Perfectly reliable, and tons of storage space.
>
> And all on Double Density disks.
>
> Strange - but nice. Of course getting DSDD disks these days is
> difficult, but I do remember telling my friends with AT's that I could
> format a DSDD to 1 meg, and they couldn't, had to buy the more
> expensive DSHD disks.
>
> Wayne
They did it by using a much more efficient recording scheme that packs
more
data on the outside tracks. All the CBM floppy drives worked that way,
the
single density drives put 170k on a single low density side, most others
got 70-80k. The first PCs got 180k on a single side Double density disk.
As I recall there were four different density zones, achieved by
changing
the clock frequency writing to the surface.
Apple does the same thing on the Mac DD floppys, except they do it by
varying the *motor* speed. I always wondered if apple was forced to
such a crude mechanical solution to the same problem by Commodore
patents.
--
Jim Harvey, Redford, Mich. Amiga person - Linux person - WB8NBS
This message came from Netscape running on a LINUX Laptop!
He who dies with the most software wins.
Brian Heyboer
Dr. Peter Kittel wrote:
> >No, you want a 96tpi QUAD density disk. Available at Rat Shack.
> >Most DS/DD disks used in a 8250/SFD will fail within a year or less
> >- extremely unrealiable to use (if you can get a ds/dd to format)
>
> Sorry, completely the wrong way round! The drives are definitely
> designed to use SD material, HD or QD disks just do not work.
> From my experience I even can say: Use the cheapest SD disks you
> can find, the more expensive, the less reliable in these drives.
The proper media for an SFD, 8050, or 8250 is, indead Quad density.
That is NOT the same as High density (which requires a different write
current and don't work). I'm a bit surprized you can still get quad
densit media anywhere. When I had such drives several yeard ago it was
already hard to find.
I never had any problems formatting DD media on one of these drive, but
I did find the QD media to be better for long-term storage and for a
disk that is constantly being overwritten.
Dr. Peter Kittel
In article <34B7F4...@space.honeywell.com> Brian Heyboer <bjhe...@space.honeywell.com> writes:
>Dr. Peter Kittel wrote:
>
>> >No, you want a 96tpi QUAD density disk. Available at Rat Shack.
>> >Most DS/DD disks used in a 8250/SFD will fail within a year or less
>> >- extremely unrealiable to use (if you can get a ds/dd to format)
>>
>> Sorry, completely the wrong way round! The drives are definitely
>> designed to use SD material, HD or QD disks just do not work.
>> From my experience I even can say: Use the cheapest SD disks you
>> can find, the more expensive, the less reliable in these drives.
>
>The proper media for an SFD, 8050, or 8250 is, indead Quad density.
Can't be. Proof: At that time there were no quad density floppies
existing. HD floppies were really new, perhaps so new that the
engineers of the 8x50 floppy drives did not yet have them.
I worked in the German Commodore suport back then and was in charge
for all CBM peripherals, disk drives, printers, plotters, etc.
The recommendation for the cheapest floppy material avaible became
the standard one after short time and many tests.