65816 in a IIe? (or, buddy, can you spare a 65802?)
Ron Kneusel
Greetings all!
I have been told that it might be possible to put a 65816
CPU (from a IIgs I imagine) into a IIe so that one would have
the functional equivalent of the rare 65802. Does anyone know
for certain if this is possible and how to go about doing it?
Alternatively, anyone have a spare 65802 they don't want? Were
these used commonly in any machine/device that I might find an
old one of?
Thanks!
Ron Kneusel
rkne...@mcw.edu
Roy and/or Janet Miller
the 6502 like the 65802 was. Didn't TransWarp cards have a spot for
65816s?
Roy
Wayne Stewart
would sell you a 65802 to replace the 65C02 on the card.
They did sell a 65816 card that clipped onto the RamWorks memory card
though.
I'd suspect they didn't sell many of them as there never was much software
that
would take advantage of it. Now if Apple had started putting 65802s into
their
later IIes the situation might be a lot different now.
Wayne
Randy Shackelford
>
>Greetings all!
>
>I have been told that it might be possible to put a 65816
>CPU (from a IIgs I imagine) into a IIe so that one would have
>the functional equivalent of the rare 65802. Does anyone know
>for certain if this is possible and how to go about doing it?
I have read about people who tried that, but it's surprising that they said
it worked. They are far from the same pinout wise.
>Alternatively, anyone have a spare 65802 they don't want? Were
>these used commonly in any machine/device that I might find an
>old one of?
I doubt that any type of device used 'em since they'd use 65C02s if the
pinout was such, or a 65816 if they needed the instructins 'n stuff. They
were meant to upgrade old computers, mainly Apple IIs I suspect, but that
never really materialized.
Tee hee, I got CMD to send me a free engineering sample way back in '89
when I was calling around trying to buy one. It's still in my //e.
--
Offsite mail to this host gets nuked.
Jeff Blakeney
wrote:
>I have been told that it might be possible to put a 65816
>CPU (from a IIgs I imagine) into a IIe so that one would have
>the functional equivalent of the rare 65802. Does anyone know
>for certain if this is possible and how to go about doing it?
Yes, you probably could do this but you would need to build a socket
adapter. I'd have to check into it more thoroughly to save for sure
whether this would work or not as there are still some differences
between the 65802 and the 65816.
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
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| Delphi Apple II Forums Web Pages |
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+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
David Empson
> Greetings all!
>
> I have been told that it might be possible to put a 65816
> CPU (from a IIgs I imagine) into a IIe so that one would have
> the functional equivalent of the rare 65802. Does anyone know
> for certain if this is possible and how to go about doing it?
Some people claim to have done this and it appeared to work, but I
wouldn't recommend it.
The major difference is that the 65816 uses the data bus pins for a
second function, namely outputting the bank address during the first
half of each cycle.
Here is a slightly reworded extract from an article of mine from about
18 months ago that covers the remaining details.
Several pins are used for totally different functions on the 65C02 and
65816, and some of these happen to include a reversal of the signal
direction.
From a quick glance at the pinout, here are the major differences:
65C02/65802 65816
1 Ground Vector Pull (output)
3 Phase 1 clock (output) Abort (input)
5 No Connection Memory Lock (output)
7 Sync (output) Valid Program Address (output)
35 No Connection Emulation status (output)
36 No Connection Bus Enable (input)
38 Set Overflow (input) M/X status (output)
39 Phase 2 clock (output) Valid Data Address (output)
(There is also the data bus, which has a bank address on it as mentioned
earlier.)
The most serious difference is pin 1: if this is tied to ground on the
circuit board (as it is on the Apple II motherboard), then plugging in a
65816 will cause its vector pull output to be shorted to ground. This
signal is normally high, so this isn't very good for it.
Some of the control signals (abort and bus enable) would not be driven
by the circuit board, which may cause them to float to an undefined
state, increasing power consumption and possibly causing random aborts
and bus floats. (This depends on whether the CPU has an internal pullup
on these inputs.)
The Sync output on the CPU (65C02) goes to all the slots, and can be
used by cards to identify an opcode fetch (e.g. for a debugging card).
This won't work any more if you replace the CPU with a 65816.
The other signals are less of a problem on the Apple II motherboard, as
the clock outputs of the CPU are not used, and neither is Set Overflow.
On an accelerator, on the other hand, all bets are off. The card might
be using the Sync output and clock signals for something important, and
putting a 65816 on there would prevent it from operating. Trying to use
native mode of the '816 may also cause problems, depending on how the
accelerator interacts with the CPU (if it has any timing dependencies or
watches instructions for doing some special operations).
The bank address being on the data bus during the first half of the
cycle is likely to cause continuous signal collisions, which will
increase system noise, increase power consumption and reduce
reliability. It could also prevent an accelerator from operating.
--
David Empson
dem...@actrix.gen.nz
Snail mail: P O Box 27-103, Wellington, New Zealand
Jay
Randy Shackelford wrote:
> >Alternatively, anyone have a spare 65802 they don't want? Were
> >these used commonly in any machine/device that I might find an
> >old one of?
>
> I doubt that any type of device used 'em since they'd use 65C02s if the
> pinout was such, or a 65816 if they needed the instructins 'n stuff. They
> were meant to upgrade old computers, mainly Apple IIs I suspect, but that
> never really materialized.
>
> Tee hee, I got CMD to send me a free engineering sample way back in '89
> when I was calling around trying to buy one. It's still in my //e.
What benefits does the 65802 provide over the 65C02?
Is it 100% compatable?
Cheers!
--> Jay
Randy Shackelford
Well the idea was to give all the addressing modes and 16 bit processing in
a package that's pin for pin the same as a 6502. So if people wrote software
to use it, you could get some decent processing power. But there's the rub,
that really never happened since the IIgs with a real 65816 came out.
And it turns out that a 65802 is more compatible with a 6502 than is a 65C02
since it fixed some bugs in the 6502 without changing any clock cycle counts
on any instructions. The 65C02 fixed 'em at the cost of adding a cycle to
a few instructions. But that's of little practical concern.
sloopy malibu
when i bought
mine ($ each @4mhz ~'89-'91) i should have gotten more than 4?
--
slo...@home.com-------------------------------sloopy_m@mydeja.com
/|\ Atari, power without the price...Linux M68k, Thought Different!
800 - 1200XL // foo! Hi Critter! Power Macintosh, Think Different!
\X/ amiga, multi-tasking done right.
Cturley2
> Greetings all!
>
> I have been told that it might be possible to put a 65816
> CPU (from a IIgs I imagine) into a IIe so that one would have
> the functional equivalent of the rare 65802. Does anyone know
> for certain if this is possible and how to go about doing it?
For what it's worth, Dr. Hank Levinson sent me a rather rare
AE 65816 - 16 Bit card that goes in the Apple IIe - along with
the 'Software Developer's Guide and the AE card - Apple II software
on 5.25" disk.
I'll be making a high quality color JPEG scan of the entire manual,
archiving the software and presenting a blowup color scan of the
AE 65816 - 16 Bit card that goes in the Apple IIe - in the GS
WorldView June issue online.
This developer card was never released for commercial sale from
Applied Engineering (AE). but, one of the know few developer cards
was auctioned and sold on eBay.com a few months ago, with the
manual and I'd guess the software for it also.
The card, manual and software of this - that I have IS NOT and
never will be offered for sale. It's destined to be placed online
as I outlined above for reference needs by the general Apple II community.
It will also eventually be put on public display in a future 'Apple II
Historical Museum' - here in Northern California.
Cheers,
Tom
Roy and/or Janet Miller
> how much ar 65802's worth?i have one in my atari 800... are you telling me
> when i bought
> mine ($ each @4mhz ~'89-'91) i should have gotten more than 4?
Like anything else, they are worth what someone is willing to pay for it. I
don't doubt that there are plenty of people who would pay more than I could. :)
Roy
Rubywand
>
> Ron Kneusel <rkne...@mcw.edu> wrote:
>
> > Greetings all!
> >
> > I have been told that it might be possible to put a 65816
> > CPU (from a IIgs I imagine) into a IIe so that one would have
> > the functional equivalent of the rare 65802. Does anyone know
> > for certain if this is possible and how to go about doing it?
>
> For what it's worth, Dr. Hank Levinson sent me a rather rare
> AE 65816 - 16 Bit card that goes in the Apple IIe - along with
> the 'Software Developer's Guide and the AE card - Apple II software
> on 5.25" disk.
Remember hearing about cards like back in 1985 when we were speculating
about the "IIx" (which turned out to be the IIgs). What's funny is that,
even in late 1985, "industry analysts" were predicting that the new Apple II
would be 68xxx based.
Rubywand
Phoenyx
transwarp card in which I have placed a 65816 cpu. It works
great, especially with Hyper C and the 16 bit interpreter.
--
Thank you for your time and interest,
and for reading my message.
Phoenyx,
Apple2 user since March 1984
Have you fed your Apple II today?
bobr...@my-deja.com
Phoenyx <qua...@dcnet2000.com> wrote:
> This is rather interesting. I have a IIe equipped with a
> transwarp card in which I have placed a 65816 cpu. It works
> great, especially with Hyper C and the 16 bit interpreter.
>
> --
That is cool!
I read a few messages concerning the speeding up of a Transwarp IIe by
changing the CPU and a few other chips. Are there any FAQ's on how to
do it?
Bob
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Phoenyx
>
> That is cool!
>
> I read a few messages concerning the speeding up of a Transwarp
> IIe by changing the CPU and a few other chips. Are there any
> FAQ's on how to do it?
That I don't know. I have heard it was discussed in earlier
usenet messages so you might find it in an archive of such. It
would be nice if the FAQ included this info.
Wayne Stewart
Matt Jenkins wrote:
> Couple of things:
>
> The card that clips onto the RamWorks is different than a 65802, since
> it
> allows you to access the native addressing mode of the 65816, and
> address
> all the memory on the RamWorks (3 meg max. on the RWIII IIRC) linearly.
> VIP
> professional could use this, but I don't know of anything else.
Interesting, I knew it was a 65816 but that was about it.
> The Transwarp is capable of supporting a 65816 in it's processor socket,
> but
> this will behave exactly like adding a 65802, except for running at
> 3.6Mhz.
Yes, I my posting was from what I recalled about it and like a lot of memories
sometimes faulty. I've reread what little I have on it and found the TransWarp
16 bit option was a 65816 option.
> I'd venture that it'd be easier to locate an original Transwarp and
> chuck a
> 65816 chip on it than it would be to locate a 65802 these days. It'd be
> faster too :)
I've a number of TransWarp cards and have since upgraded most of them.
Unfortunately I'm not sure if I have anything I'm likely to ever use that'll
utilise the 65816. However it doesn't do any harm and leaves me with a
few more spare 65C02s in case I should need to enhance more IIes again.
Wayne
Matt Jenkins
>
> The TransWarp didn't have a spot for one but AE did advertise that they
> would sell you a 65802 to replace the 65C02 on the card.
> They did sell a 65816 card that clipped onto the RamWorks memory card
> though.
> I'd suspect they didn't sell many of them as there never was much software
> that
> would take advantage of it. Now if Apple had started putting 65802s into
> their
> later IIes the situation might be a lot different now.
Couple of things:
The card that clips onto the RamWorks is different than a 65802, since
it
allows you to access the native addressing mode of the 65816, and
address
all the memory on the RamWorks (3 meg max. on the RWIII IIRC) linearly.
VIP
professional could use this, but I don't know of anything else.
The Transwarp is capable of supporting a 65816 in it's processor socket,
but
this will behave exactly like adding a 65802, except for running at
3.6Mhz.
I'd venture that it'd be easier to locate an original Transwarp and
chuck a
65816 chip on it than it would be to locate a 65802 these days. It'd be
faster
too :)
Cheers,
Matt
Phoenyx
16 bit interpreter is probably 30% faster. Since I like to tinker
around with utilities, this is useful for me, especially with the
extra mhz.
--
Thank you for your time and interest. I hope it was helpful
or at least interesting.
Phoenyx,
Apple2 user since March 1984
Links to Phoenyx's pages:
preferred..... http://zip.to/Phoenyx_A2
alternate..... http://www.tinyangeldesigns.com/Apple2
Phoenyx
first Zram, Applied Engineering was promising such a thing as a
future enhancement. Sadly, it never happened.
Cturley2
65816 Apple IIe card, with the manual cover to cover - the card scan
(front and back) and a scan of the software for use with it. I will
archive the 5.25 disk in ShrinkIt archive format and make it available
from the folder noted below with all the rest in the next day or so.
The URL that contains it all follows:
http://www.grin.net/~cturley/gsezine/GS.WorldView/v2000/Jun/MiscNew/
AE.65816.IIe.Dev.Card/
Cheers,
Tom
roughana
> I have been told that it might be possible to put a 65816
> CPU (from a IIgs I imagine) into a IIe so that one would have
> the functional equivalent of the rare 65802. Does anyone know
> for certain if this is possible and how to go about doing it?
Upon re-reading this thread I may have to reconsider though.
I do have a recently identified problem with my CFFA3000 not working in this machine - it has been suggested that the 65816 could be causing this problem.
Regards,
Andrew
oneel...@gmail.com
> I have been using a 65816 cpu in my Platinum //e (w/ international motherboard) without any noticeable ill effects.
>
> Upon re-reading this thread I may have to reconsider though.
>
> I do have a recently identified problem with my CFFA3000 not working in this machine - it has been suggested that the 65816 could be causing this problem.
I have to reply for several reasons:
1. You posted to a 14 year old thread - cool!
2. I, 14 years later, saw the reply and am around to reply myself :)
I never did find a 65802 but still have a II+, enhanced IIe and IIgs that I use more often than I'd admit in other circles. I have a CFFA in the IIgs and it works perfectly, btw. I don't recall what generation the CFFA card is, however.
Ron
roughana
> I have a CFFA in the IIgs [with 65816] and it works perfectly, btw.
The CFFA[3000] is engineered to work with a IIgs.
The problem with the CFFA3000 could be my use of a 65816 in the Platinum //e.
Regards,
Andrew