terminal emulators

[Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)]

There are many out there, but few if any behave exactly like the
terminal they are trying to emulate, or even as good as DECterm.
Leaving aside for the moment the problem that most people using a VT
terminal emulation will not have a VT-style keyboard, what are the best
terminal emulators for Linux? Windows?

[MG]

Op 28-mei-2016 om 12:13 schreef Phillip Helbig (undress to reply):

If you like DECterm, then the best and most cost-effective
terminal emulator would probably be DECterm over remote X
(e.g. SSH tunneled), if on another (non-VMS) client system.

There are some good annex accurate terminal emulators, but
those generally tend to be more costly offerings and I'm
not sure if some of them still even exist. One of these
suites, which appears to still exist and which I've used
and had good experiences with, is Attachmate (now Micro
Focus, apparently) Reflection, which boasts specific
OpenVMS support:
<https://www.attachmate.com/products/reflection/desktop>

- MG

[Chris]

I've used Teraterm on windows for years. It just works and supports
telnet and ssh, as well as serial comms. If you want full emulation,
find yourself an LK250 keyboard and the PC lead that goes with
it, rather than the odd one that was for the Vaxmate. Not much
open source choice for Linux, but minicom doesn't do a bad job...

[Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)]

In article <574976b6$0$4198$e4fe...@newszilla.xs4all.nl>, MG

<marc...@SPAMxs4all.nl> writes:

> Op 28-mei-2016 om 12:13 schreef Phillip Helbig (undress to reply):
> > There are many out there, but few if any behave exactly like the
> > terminal they are trying to emulate, or even as good as DECterm.
> > Leaving aside for the moment the problem that most people using a VT
> > terminal emulation will not have a VT-style keyboard, what are the best
> > terminal emulators for Linux? Windows?
>
> If you like DECterm, then the best and most cost-effective
> terminal emulator would probably be DECterm over remote X
> (e.g. SSH tunneled), if on another (non-VMS) client system.

Right: when connecting to the VMS system, start a DECterm there and
display it locally. OK, makes sense. But what about non-VMS systems?
I'm assuming that DECterm is a good emulator, so it would be nice to
have one which behaves similarly for non-VMS systems.

[Hans Bachner]

Hi Phillip,

The option of using DECterm with a local X server on your client ahs
already been pointed out, and probably offers the best DECterm
compatibility :-)

If you're looking for a free emulator, I believe PuTTY is the best, and
is available on Windows and Linux. I use it frequently, and rarely
stumble over (display) problems in average everyday use, i.e. all
OpenVMS Utilities using VT graphics work fine. I've also seen customer
applications using FMS or DECforms working fine with PuTTY.

Another free option, but only for Windows, is the VTStar emulator from
the OpenVMS freeware V7 CD, which was developed as a successor of the
original PATHWORKS terminal emulator but eventually cancelled in favour
of PowerTerm. It has a few problems with newer Windows versions (does
not minimize to the taskbar but to the desktop, does not properly handle
multi-screen setups when displaying dialog boxes etc.) but has excellent
VT emulation.

From the commercial solutions I know that PowerTerm works extremely
well, and I have a big customer running Reflection for many, many years
to their complete satisfaction.

A PowerTerm Lite license doesn't cost an arm and a leg (<100 Euros); if
you need SSH support, you need PowerTerm Plus (slightly >100 Euros). If
you're interested in a PowerTerm license, please contact me via PM.

If you can get hold of a PATHWORKS-32 kit (and license) you can also use
the PowerTerm version that was available with PATHWORKS.

Hope this helps,
Hans.

[MG]

Op 28-mei-2016 om 15:26 schreef Phillip Helbig (undress to reply):

> Right: when connecting to the VMS system, start a DECterm there and
> display it locally. OK, makes sense. But what about non-VMS systems?
> I'm assuming that DECterm is a good emulator, so it would be nice to
> have one which behaves similarly for non-VMS systems.

Sorry, I don't understand what you're referring to or trying to
achieve.

- MG

[Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)]

In article <5749bc3b$0$4215$e4fe...@newszilla.xs4all.nl>, MG

Suppose one has a non-VMS system on one's desk. For connection to VMS
systems, one could SSH in and create a DECterm to display on the desktop
machine.

But what about a non-VMS system? Which emulator should one use there,
so that its behaviour is as similar as possible to that of DECterm or a
real terminal?

[Hans Bachner]

Well - I assume that a non-VMS system would not use much of VT
functionality; maybe some ANSI escape sequences, but probably none of
the DEC specific escape sequences. I also assume that most of the
terminal emulators out there would support basic ANSI escape sequences,
but I don't have much experience with other products than those I
already mentioned.

Also, "non-VMS system" is a wide area, with a wide range of potential
requirements. Tell us your specific requirements so c.o.v participants
can help you.

Regards,
Hans.

[David Froble]

Why don't you just start a religious debate?

To answer your question, I use PerSoft's SmarTerm. Not free. And the version I
have won't run on weendoze 7. But, with the exception of the DCL insert /
overstrike toggle with F12 or F14, I forget which, (Ctrl-A works) it does
everything I need. Not saying there might not be a few more things it doesn't do.

[Simon Clubley]

On 2016-05-28, Hans Bachner <ha...@bachner.priv.at> wrote:
> Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) schrieb am 28.05.2016 um 17:58:
>>
>> But what about a non-VMS system? Which emulator should one use there,
>> so that its behaviour is as similar as possible to that of DECterm or a
>> real terminal?
>
> Well - I assume that a non-VMS system would not use much of VT
> functionality; maybe some ANSI escape sequences, but probably none of
> the DEC specific escape sequences. I also assume that most of the
> terminal emulators out there would support basic ANSI escape sequences,
> but I don't have much experience with other products than those I
> already mentioned.
>

The display functionality is only one part of the VT functionality;
just as important is the keyboard functionality and is an area in which
the various open source emulators fall down badly.

BTW, I use EDT keypad mode in emacs under Linux (including to type up
this response) so I need a decent emulator. Depending on the system,
I either use xterm with a keyboard script or use PuTTY (with a preference
towards the latter for any new setups).

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Microsoft: Bringing you 1980s technology to a 21st century world

[Hans Vlems]

I have four choices ( on a Windows 8.1 workstation):
1 Reflection X suite v14
2 PuTTY
3 VT310
4 MobaXterm
Even though reflection offers a lot of functionality (burroughs and data general terminal support, and an x server) I mostly use PuTTY.
YMMV

[Jan-Erik Soderholm]

There is one thing I'm missing from PuTTY that Reflection has
is the "display control chars" where all ESC sequences, CRs and
LFs and so on are displayed on screen and not interpretted.

But apart from that, there is nothing in PuTTY that doesn work.
Including connecting to a terminal server for console work on
both Alphas and has also tried it against a rx2660 successfully
using the semi-graphics used there...

For my professional VMS support I only use PuTTY at the moment.

Jan-Erik.

[Kerry Main]

I agree with Jan-Erik with the only small twist is I use PuttyCM
(Putty Connection Manager) which provides the capability to use
tabbed putty sessions for Telnet/SSH sessions. Can rename tabs for
easier identification when working across multiple systems. You can
also move tabs around, side-side, top-bottom, combo etc. See link
below for dockable session support.

If interested, send me an offline email and I will fwd a small tips and
tricks doc I put together on PuttyCM.

Sample screen shots:
http://www.unixmantra.com/2013/04/putty-connection-manager-tabbed-putty.html

- Display Multiple PuTTY Sessions in Tab
- Dockable Windows for PuTTY Sessions
- Multi Command Sender (MCS)
- Encrypted PuTTY Configuration Database (you do not need to use)
- Automatic PuTTY Session Login
- PuTTY Session Post-Login Commands

Regards,

Kerry Main
Kerry dot main at starkgaming dot com

[Jan-Erik Soderholm]

Yes, PytyyCM *looks* nice. But is seems to give a lot of extra stuff on
screen apart from the terminal window itself. I have "saved sessions"
for what I need, and it is simple to open a new session. I have no
needs for the tabs themselfs I can just as easy switch window...

Jan-Erik.

[VAXman-]

Most linux distros come with xterm. How it's built from the xterm source can
vary. I've taken to building xterm with a few extra switches when I build it
to add some terminal functionality that's amiss in the distro builds -- as an
example, DECDWL and DECDHL, and DECELR and DECSLE. With some experimentation,
usually a more suitable font can be found that's easier on the eyes too.

Windows? I look outside through them.

FWIW, you can telnet into one of my systems in the tmesis domain, the typical
FQDN separation character, and the TLD net, and log in using VTTEST -- there
it no password -- and it will launch the VTTEST suite. Check your emulators
against that. It tests a great many of the VT100 and VT2xx escape sequences
and quirks that cause many of the emulators to misbehave.

--
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

I speak to machines with the voice of humanity.

[Johnny Billquist]

On 2016-05-29 05:04, Simon Clubley wrote:
> On 2016-05-28, Hans Bachner <ha...@bachner.priv.at> wrote:
>> Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) schrieb am 28.05.2016 um 17:58:
>>>
>>> But what about a non-VMS system? Which emulator should one use there,
>>> so that its behaviour is as similar as possible to that of DECterm or a
>>> real terminal?
>>
>> Well - I assume that a non-VMS system would not use much of VT
>> functionality; maybe some ANSI escape sequences, but probably none of
>> the DEC specific escape sequences. I also assume that most of the
>> terminal emulators out there would support basic ANSI escape sequences,
>> but I don't have much experience with other products than those I
>> already mentioned.
>>
>
> The display functionality is only one part of the VT functionality;
> just as important is the keyboard functionality and is an area in which
> the various open source emulators fall down badly.
>
> BTW, I use EDT keypad mode in emacs under Linux (including to type up
> this response) so I need a decent emulator. Depending on the system,
> I either use xterm with a keyboard script or use PuTTY (with a preference
> towards the latter for any new setups).

I have never had the need for any keyboard scripts using xterm. It works
correct right out of the box, if you just tell it what you want.
Also, xterm was written by DEC people to start with.

PuTTY is a pretty decent options, but it's not as good as xterm.

Any other implementation I have tried just downright fails.

Johnny

[Johnny Billquist]

On 2016-05-29 13:32, Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote:
> Den 2016-05-29 kl. 09:18, skrev Hans Vlems:
>> I have four choices ( on a Windows 8.1 workstation):
>> 1 Reflection X suite v14
>> 2 PuTTY
>> 3 VT310
>> 4 MobaXterm
>> Even though reflection offers a lot of functionality (burroughs
>> and data general terminal support, and an x server) I mostly use PuTTY.
>> YMMV
>>
>
> There is one thing I'm missing from PuTTY that Reflection has
> is the "display control chars" where all ESC sequences, CRs and
> LFs and so on are displayed on screen and not interpretted.
>
> But apart from that, there is nothing in PuTTY that doesn work.

Try outputting a character at the last column, and then send a
backspace, and notice how PuTTY ignores the backspace. (When terminal
not set to autowrap.)

(Yes, that one have bitten me, and I have reported it, and the PuTTY
developers response was "works as intended", even when I pointed out
that this was incompatible with DEC terminals.)

Johnny

[IanD]

I'm forced to use Putty and I find it annoying

How does one map a key in Putty? I've searched all sorts of help related stuff and I gave up. I use a laptop and I find putty painful because lots of keys are often shifted around compared to full keyboards. The DO key on Putty is annoying on a laptop versus a simple keypad '-' on a full blown keyboard

Before being forced to use putty, I used SecureCRT for many years which I found to be really good

https://www.vandyke.com/products/securecrt/

Key mapping, macro's etc are very easy to do.

It has a scripting language support

Quote:

SecureCRT® supports several scripting languages including VBScript using ActiveX on Windows. Starting with SecureCRT 6.6, you can also use Python on Windows and Mac OS X. More information on scripting in SecureCRT can be found on the Windows Scripting Examples page, the Python Scripting Examples page, and the VanDyke Software online Scripting Essentials guide.

You can have your sessions tabbed or not. I used to colour different backgrounds depending on environments connected to (production one colour, development another, testing something different again), that sort of thing to reduce risk of input errors etc

It is well maintained but it's not free however...

[Simon Clubley]

Does xterm these days put PF1 through PF4 where they are supposed to
be or does it still map them to F1 through F4 ?

> PuTTY is a pretty decent options, but it's not as good as xterm.
>

PuTTY's main problem for me is if I select logical (ie: function based)
key mapping instead of exact physical location key mapping, then PuTTY
does not implement PF1 through PF4 unless you place the keypad into
application keypad mode. Apart from that, I don't really have any
issues with PuTTY.

> Any other implementation I have tried just downright fails.
>

And that I will _totally_ agree with you about. Every few years I get
in the mood to assess all the open source terminal emulators out there
and so far I have not found anything for Linux other than xterm or
PuTTY which will work with VMS.

[Steven Schweda]

> Does xterm these days put PF1 through PF4 where they are
> supposed to be or does it still map them to F1 through F4 ?

The default mapping could be almost anything, and I
wouldn't notice. Thanks to the miracles of xev and xmodmap,
many things are possible. Generally, the real problem tends
to be the keyboard itself, and its lack of a complete (or
any) keypad. A full Mac keyboard has a proper-sized (small)
"+", but a Mac laptop tends to lack any keypad. The keypad
of a typical Windows keyboard tends to have a double-size
"+", which spoils the keypad layout. Even xmodmap can't
split a too-large key into two.

[Henry Crun]

Let me put in a good word for Powerterm.
(originally installed in the 90's, still working)
Allows me to work on TPU and/or EDT with full keyboard emulation, up to and
including split screen.
Does double-width and double-height characters.
Works with SMG screen programs.
That's about all I find use for at work...


--
Mike R.
Home: http://alpha.mike-r.com/
QOTD: http://alpha.mike-r.com/qotd.php
No Micro$oft products were used in the URLs above, or in preparing this message.
Recommended reading: http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#before
and: http://alpha.mike-r.com/jargon/T/top-post.html
Missile address: N31.7624/E34.9691

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ne...@netfront.net ---

[Johnny Billquist]

On 2016-05-30 21:14, Simon Clubley wrote:
> On 2016-05-30, Johnny Billquist <b...@softjar.se> wrote:
>> On 2016-05-29 05:04, Simon Clubley wrote:
>>>
>>> The display functionality is only one part of the VT functionality;
>>> just as important is the keyboard functionality and is an area in which
>>> the various open source emulators fall down badly.
>>>
>>> BTW, I use EDT keypad mode in emacs under Linux (including to type up
>>> this response) so I need a decent emulator. Depending on the system,
>>> I either use xterm with a keyboard script or use PuTTY (with a preference
>>> towards the latter for any new setups).
>>
>> I have never had the need for any keyboard scripts using xterm. It works
>> correct right out of the box, if you just tell it what you want.
>> Also, xterm was written by DEC people to start with.
>>
>
> Does xterm these days put PF1 through PF4 where they are supposed to
> be or does it still map them to F1 through F4 ?

Since I don't have corresponding keys on my keyboard, I can't properly
answer that one. F1-F4 generate the codes that you would expect PF1 to
PF4 send, though.
(Silly PC keyboards have '/', '*' and '-' where PF2, PF3 and PF4 would
be. And since a DEC keyboard also have those keys on the numeric part,
xterm will send the codes expected by the keys with those glyphs marked
on them.

>> PuTTY is a pretty decent options, but it's not as good as xterm.
>>
>
> PuTTY's main problem for me is if I select logical (ie: function based)
> key mapping instead of exact physical location key mapping, then PuTTY
> does not implement PF1 through PF4 unless you place the keypad into
> application keypad mode. Apart from that, I don't really have any
> issues with PuTTY.

That PF key issue sounds like a bug. The PF keys should always send
their codes, no matter which mode you are in.

>> Any other implementation I have tried just downright fails.
>>
>
> And that I will _totally_ agree with you about. Every few years I get
> in the mood to assess all the open source terminal emulators out there
> and so far I have not found anything for Linux other than xterm or
> PuTTY which will work with VMS.

Yup.

Johnny

[Johnny Billquist]

Yeah, I would agree that this is the real problem you eventually hit.
Physical world differences.

Johnny

[Chris]

As I said earlier, find yourself an LK250 (vaxmate) keyboard
and the alternate cable that connects to a PC and you are
good to go. I used one for years to provide the correctly
mapped keys for the EDT like SEDT editor...

Regards,

Chris

[tym.s...@gmail.com]

I can recommend BlueZone, by Rocket Software (rocketsoftware.com).

I've used it very successfully under Windows, and I believe it's got Linux clients, possibly others.

-Tym

[Simon Clubley]

On 2016-05-31, Johnny Billquist <b...@softjar.se> wrote:
> On 2016-05-30 21:14, Simon Clubley wrote:
>>
>> PuTTY's main problem for me is if I select logical (ie: function based)
>> key mapping instead of exact physical location key mapping, then PuTTY
>> does not implement PF1 through PF4 unless you place the keypad into
>> application keypad mode. Apart from that, I don't really have any
>> issues with PuTTY.
>
> That PF key issue sounds like a bug. The PF keys should always send
> their codes, no matter which mode you are in.
>

I reported it. The report appears to have been ignored.