What Your Red Hat Dollars Buy
Anonymous
poll, 96% male, needs to clean up its act if its ever going to go mainstream.
This is a stunning example of what needs to be cleaned up.
Here's a guy who abuses his position at a startup company, emails about it
from a corporate email address (which was then forwarded to other people, one
of whom forwarded it to the woman in question), and all he and his bosses can
worry about is their lawsuit exposure. They insist that she's spreading this
and that they really aren't responsible. I've seen enough to make me want to
vomit.
But then one really can't expect anything other than an "old boy's club"
response when the president is congratulating the skank for being an alley
cat, can one?
Disclaimers: I am not an employee of either Red Hat software or their
competition. I am a Linux user. I am female. I am neither goth nor bi. I am
offended by the content of this letter that was distributed, defaming a woman
of the Linux community. We're pretty rare. I did not receive this email from
"Doris."
Poster's note: I have changed all references of the original woman's name to
Doris. I have noted deleted phrases that might identify the woman in question
in square brackets []. I have left passages of description in that may well
identify her to those who saw her on the evenings in question. I might also
add that, having conversed with her, she has categorically stated that 90% of
the information below is false.
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 12:20:17 -0500 (EST)
>From: Michael Maher <mi...@redhat.com>
To: [list deleted]
Subject: Why Gothic-to-go isn't necessarily a good thing...
Ok.. this is kinda long. Where to start, well Doris [url deleted] emailed me a
few times, that when I get out there I need to contact her. I originally
met her at [trade show] and she was thrilled to meet someone from Red Hat.
So being curious... I did.
I mean what the hell, I figured she can't be all that bad. Anyone that
likes to wear leather, chains, corsets and [deleted] has to be good.
Right?? Right??
heh...
Well, It's the first day of the show, and I had alot of things to do, but
I kept hearing of this woman walking around in a real short mini catholic
school girl dress with those knee stocking things. She had those HUGE
ass [deleted] shoes. It turns out to be Doris.
I still didn't see her, but I heard people talking about her. I went to
an exhibitor party with Preston(from work) where they had free wine.
Preston and I drank very heavily. We sat down with Rob
Malda(http://slashdot.org) and harrased the fuck out of him. It was quite
fulfilling. Anyway, a short while later, in strolls Doris. She comes
over to talk and gives me the brush off. I was like whatever..
what do I care? Well Rob is on IRC and he convinces this guy to let us
all go to his cafe' where we can get free food and half off drinks. Tons
of people leave. Preston and I go into the Lobby.
Let me point out that this is the 'Fairmont' and is one classy hotel. It
blew the hell out of the other hotel I stayed at in Chicago. It was Mac
Daddy. heh. Anyway, Preston, Christian(my Romanian manager) and I are
sitting in the lobby by the piano drinking 1, 2, maybe it was 3 or 4 long
island ice teas. Can you say 'holy crap'. I was feeling pretty good at
this point. We followed some people to this place called babylon. I
barely recall it, but I was told that everyone was there. Everyone. this
means the president, Oracle partners, IBM, and a random accompaniment of
all the linux crew.
We stumble in and before you know it this girl comes out of no where and
grabs me. She yells something to me about [city] and that we should go
now. Not very congnizant of my surroundings, I was dragge..uhm.. I mean
lead out of the place. A motley assortment of people followed us. We
ended up at this place down the street that was a hole in the wall and
pretty much dead minus this small crowd. This next part is too funny to
even write about..
There was, well me and Doris. The girl turned out to be her. Next was
Erik Raymond. Can you say .. annoying fuck? If I read another article
about him in PC week I think I will vomit. I was with Preston Brown, KDE
developer, and Doug Ledford -- Mr. Adaptec and SCSI driver. Then there
was the italian partner and some dork that runs segfault.org. Doris
was whoring it up. Her breasts were falling out of her shirt. San from
Corel was also there with a linux journal chiq. So the stage is set.
Anyway, I was too drunk to pay any real attention to this slut so I
decided to play pool. Meanwhile she did the ole 'Ill make you jealous
thing.' which you know doesn't work on me. :-)
So she sat on this couch with Erik Raymond and segfault fucker.
I played pool. I didn't know it but Preston and Doug made a bet of $10 on
me. I guess I'm cheap. :-)
Well this lasted about oh ... 10 minutes before Erik Raymond was asking
her back to his room and jumping all over her. He even kissed her on the
lips. At this point she jumps up and runs over to me like the slut that
she is. She then begins to babble something about free software and linux
and shit. Now look at the pictures of this girl and imagine her spewing
this shit. I know... it's hard to comprehend.
So she --tells-- me that I'm going to [city] with her and that we
are going to a Goth club b/c I'm the most cool guy there. uhm... yeah
sure, it was my banana republic clothes and my Red Hat business card and
we all know it. We leave. It's a 1 hour drive there and we roll up to
her apartment where she changes into this dress, I mean skirt, I mean
thing that looked alot like a loincloth but was longer and black. She
then put on a metal chained corset thing that covered her nipples with
metal. Oh I almost forgot the stilleto metal shoes. I'm all about
shoes I tell ya...
We then went to this dive called 'The Death Guild'. Yes, I said Death
Guild. In the Death Guild was what you'd expect. Death. Lots of people
that listened to music that made you want to kill yourself. Lots of hot
sluts that acted like it. We sat in a corner where she then began to tell
me that this was the place that she liked to take all her girl friends.
What? Oh yeah, she's bi-sexual. Not bad, a bi-sexual, leather, [deleted],
goth queen. what more could you ask for??? hhm???
We go back to her aparment after our $20 drinks... ugh. She then begins
to tell me all about linux. Ok, I need a rest from this linux shit. She
takes a shower. I explore the place.
The first thing you should do in an [deleted] goths house is explore the
place. God knows you don't want to get chloroformed or anything bad like
that. First thing I do is look at the music, gimme something else to talk
about. What does she have?? If it's not marilyn manson or NIN, it's
something in [deleted] I can't pronounce. OK .. next.
I look at the pictures. They are all of [deleted]. Well except for the
pictures of her with her girl friend. Oh and the pictures of her posing
in her star trek uniform with Data.... and Picard.... and Riker... and
that borg bitch. Then there are all her pictures of the borg girl
and scully. She has a facination with metal implants and pale skin.
*gulp* And did I mention the star wars posters? Oh .. man.
So what next?? Look in the closet. Upon seeing the whips and ropes and
chains I shut the door. This peaked my curiousity a bit. Make sure you
can get out of this room if neccesary. I checked and none of the stuff
was too secure. I could escape if necessary. Next... Look in the fridge.
Hmmm.. Ensure.. more ensure.. some juice, did I mention more ensure??
This is a sign of someone that might have some eating problems. Oh what's
that?? the birth control in the fridge?? Checking the date on this, she's
up to date..... *whew*. At this point I know I'm going to score.
Last place to look... ahh.. Mr. Laptop is on. Mr. Laptop's name is [deleted]
and after notifying some people that a naked [deleted] person is about to
emerge.. she does. quick.. send message FAST!!!! that was close.
My turn to take a shower. It's 4am... plus my jet lag made that 7. I was
tired. I go to the shower and after moving some bottles, some more
bottles and some other pill bottles out of the way I can get at the sink.
Curious.. I look at the bottles. TONS of prescription drugs. Hmmm..
lithuim, valium, riddlin, some other stuff I have no idea what it is..
hhmm.. intereting... what's this?? a syringe?? great.
"Hey Doris?? are you sick?? there are alot of uhm... interesting
medicines in here."
"YEs.. I'm manic depressive.. and I like to pop pills. My Dad is a
pharmicist in [deleted]. I can have any drug I want.. do you want
some?"
"??? ... NO!! "
"Sometimes I take them too feel good, other times I take them and
get on irc, but usually I take them to make myself feel however I
want and crawl in the closet for a few days"
lovely....
"Mike..sleep here with me."
I layed there like a log. I was scared to death. I couldn't move. I
though I might die or something. I had 3 hours to get back to san jose
for a meeting at 9. Uh oh.. .she started talking again.
"Mike you need to sign my book."
She then produces me a book and urges me to write in it. She told me to
write about linux and sex. So I wrote a quick spec file to be the dork
that she wanted. All kinds of people signed this book. all kinds....all
linux kinds. What have I gotten myself into??? I joked about becoming
a famous linux rockstar, but I never thought I'd have groupies so soon.
Sure enough I did... and she was laying next to me. I finally fell asleep
after her discussing window managers. I was TIRED.
"What's Rasterman really like?"
ugh..
I have her drive me back the next day. I drank alot of jolt cola the next
day and almost passed out a few times. ugh. not good. I saw a few
people, like the president of Red Hat.
Pres: "Hey Brother you are quite the alley cat."
"huh?"
"Sheesh.. I can see the tail swoosh from here.. swish..."
"oh.. you mean squish."
"I don't follow???"
"never mind... ask Raster."
Then the Oracle people said something to me..then a few others.. ugh.
Everyone in the fucking place saw me with this girl. Not that she wasn't
noticeable or anything. Why today she wore 2 slips, a white and black
one... and to enhance some things, she wore a corset to make things snug.
She also wore these HUGE heels with rope type things that laced all the
way up her thigh. I didn't see her that day an avoided her like the
plague. I mean I had work to do, people to talk to that were supposed to
take me serious, not to mention that I was dizzy as all hell.
So what do I do?? go to the gym.. ahh. Then Preston and I met Jim
Klinger(from PV) for sushi. I figured what the hell I'll go to bed
early.. like 10am.. which is really 1am for me. Here I am finally
getting some sleep when the phone rings at 1am. Ugh.. who the hell is
this? Rob Malda told her were my room was. She asked if she could come
up..huh?? I hung up. Next thing you know .. she's at my door. I go to
the door to find her scantily clad and wanting to come in. What the
hell.. she's on my turf now.. why not??? really?? why not?? Gimme a
break already, you would have done the same thing.
So I let her in... she strips down and before you know it, I have a [deleted]
goth slut on top of me.. only... she was asking me .. ARRGHH!!! LINUX
QUESTIONS!!!! "What's your favorite part of the install?" blah blah..
blah... Then... "So what's Red Hat up too??" Ahh I know the game now.. I
know that you are friends with our competitors. HAHAHAHA you think I'll
tell you that??? You dumb whore... I was vague. I had her give me the
scoop on our friends over at LinuxCare. She did tell me that she would do
drugs with a few of them. This is good, our competitors are on drugs.
She then asked me if I liked pain.
"uhmm.. that would probably be NO."
"But Why?? it's fun.. I'll let you do it to me."
"Do what?"
"Pain is so close to pleasure.. if it hurts real bad it feels good."
"You've been watching too many hell raiser flicks."
"Let me bite you..."
"No."
"PLeasEeeee?? I 'll pick a spot. It will be nice. trust me."
"No.. no pain... pain bad."
What the hell? I'm sure I'm going to let some girl I hardly know BITE me.
God forbid she might have HIVe or something.. wait a minute Mike.. She
MIGHT have aids. After my last trip to the STD clinic, I'm not wanting to
go there anytime soon... condom or not.. this could be bad.
She jumps out of bed and runs to the bathroom quick. She pops some drugs
and comes back. She just slammed some E's or something so she says.
Lovely.. a horny slut that is all drugged up and probably wants to bite me
again jumps on top of me.
"I'm going to tie you up."
"What??"
"I have something.." *produces rope*
"No way."
"Well how about this bathrobe strap at least."
"OK.. I can deal with that."
There is no way in hell I'm going to let some strange girl tie me up with
someting I can't break. No way.
She wants to have sex.. .Uhm.. hhmm.. uh. ... maybe .... NO MIKE . are you
on CRACK??? well not yet.. but this girl might be. What is the safest
alternative for me??? ahh.. think.. role model.. who.. what should I do???
Then in came to me suddenly... BILL!!! Yes.. BILL CLinton!!! that's it..
No you sicko.. not the cigar.
I made sure to take my time so that she had to work extra hard. heh.
Bill would be proud.
She's done and before getting our of bed again, she says, "Left click,
Mouse, Xlock" When she comes back she says, "Click, password, resume."
"Boy it sure is nice to finally have someone around that can get
my linux jokes."
At this point.. I pretend to be asleep. It quickly becomes a reality and
I'm up for work again. Hmm.. she's going to be asleep for a while. I
better make sure to TAKE everything I own that is valuable in this room.
Keys, money, wallet, phone, laptop, extra keys to the room, and finally --
the minibar key. I pick the chains and ropes up off the floor and put
them back in her bag. Don't want to freak out housecleaning more than
they will be when they finda naked goth slut in my bed. I leave.. go to
show.. come back to go to the gym at 4.. What the HELL she is still in my
ROOM!!!!
Now I'm starting to panic. What the HELL am I going to do? I leave..
for the gym come back later.. and she's gone.. *whew*.. that was close.
Ok there is a Red Hat party that nite and I can't be anywhere near this
slut. How will people our partners Reps think of Red Hat if they talk to
me and I have this Goth slut hanging off of me? I mean on this day of
the show she was wearing a transparent dress. No one will possibly take
me seriously.. there are booth babes.. then there are freaks.
I carefully select who I invite to this party at the show. You have to
have a ticket to get in. The party is in the middle of gang town. the XIV
gang, who happend to be at war with the 13'ers.. lovely. Meanwhile..there
are some hot chics at this party. I'm also hanging out with the pres
giving him the scoop on everyone at the party. Then, even after special
orders, they let her in.. UGH!!!!! I'm doomed. I guess it's the whole
chic ratio thing. She comes directly towards me and I have to talk to her.
This is the woman that was earlier sucking back some tadpoles so I felt
obliged to entertain her for a bit. hell I felt guilty I guess. Everyone
was staring at me...especially when she lead me upstairs to the balcony
area where she started to shirk off her shirt and straddled me wanting
to fuck.
I just stopped it before things got out of control. Call me a wimp. I
wasn't ready to fuck some girl with half of red hat and senior management
in the room downstirs.
It was a good thing I didn't do anything, I ran downstairs and Christian
my romanian boss then grabbed me yelling.. "We have a devel meeting right
now, let's go!!" which isn't really that peculiar. He did save me though.
So I survived.. she wants to come to linux expo and stay at my house
though.. ouch!!! I've been fielding all sorts of weird inquiries since.
Great. Hilary asked me if I had a good time in CA. HA that's funny.
I apologize for this being so long.
-mike
Neil Cherry
--
Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry nch...@home.net
http://members.home.net/ncherry (Text only)
http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/lightsey/52 (Graphics GB)
http://www2.cybercities.com/~linuxha/ (Graphics US)
Anonymous
Steve Gage
>
> Why this is being posted: I think the Linux community, which is, by Slashdot
> poll, 96% male, needs to clean up its act if its ever going to go mainstream.
> This is a stunning example of what needs to be cleaned up.
[huge spew of drivel deleted]
> I apologize for this being so long.
>
> -mike
You should.
- Steve
Mr. Zenn
acquired taste (but quite entertaining really). I beat her out for the 'Best Use
of Vinyl Apparel' in a trade show award on /. Apparently Malda thought my pants
were shinier than her corset. ;)
Going for a little shock value is not a bad thing.
And as far as his attitude towards ESR...I'll take his company over RMS, Young, or
Perens anyday. You want to compalin about someone...spend thirty seconds with Sam
Ockman and you'll pray for Percodan to fall from the heavens...
Quite frankly, the attitude he gives has nothing to do with anything except being
excessively male (of which I do not exempt myself). It doesn't have to be cleaned
up, it just has to be spoken with discretion...something women are far better at
than us boys...;
mr. zenn
Steve Gage wrote:
> Anonymous wrote:
> >
> > Why this is being posted: I think the Linux community, which is, by Slashdot
> > poll, 96% male, needs to clean up its act if its ever going to go mainstream.
> > This is a stunning example of what needs to be cleaned up.
>
> [huge spew of drivel deleted]
>
> > I apologize for this being so long.
> >
> > -mike
>
> You should.
>
> - Steve
Christopher Browne
>Why this is being posted: I think the Linux community, which is, by Slashdot
>poll, 96% male, needs to clean up its act if its ever going to go mainstream.
>This is a stunning example of what needs to be cleaned up.
>
>Here's a guy who abuses his position at a startup company, emails about it
>from a corporate email address (which was then forwarded to other people, one
>of whom forwarded it to the woman in question), and all he and his bosses can
>worry about is their lawsuit exposure. They insist that she's spreading this
>and that they really aren't responsible. I've seen enough to make me want to
>vomit.
>
>But then one really can't expect anything other than an "old boy's club"
>response when the president is congratulating the skank for being an alley
>cat, can one?
>
>Disclaimers: I am not an employee of either Red Hat software or their
>competition. I am a Linux user. I am female. I am neither goth nor bi. I am
>offended by the content of this letter that was distributed, defaming a woman
>of the Linux community. We're pretty rare. I did not receive this email from
>"Doris."
Note that if true, this indicates that the business community that has
sprung up around Linux isn't that much different from most business
communities that have sprung up around many things.
The story is indeed pretty slimy, almost regardless of the nearness/
distance from truth. The story seems a bit extreme; I was at ALS back
in October, many of the same characters were there, and there didn't
seem to be anything nearly so bizarre in Atlanta, despite there being
some "gentlemens' clubs" not terribly distant from that convention spot.
At ALS, the Friday night after-convention activity was basically that a
hundred people headed to a local brew pub, and ESR was buying beers for
quite a lot of people. Certainly not consistent with an "orgy
scenario."
The slimy bits are probably closer to the story of the average trade
convention than anyone should be comfortable with; there haven't been
any sizable organizations I've been associated with where there *wasn't*
some instances of rather questionable "sleeping around" somewhere along
the way. (I didn't get any of "it," doubtless to my benefit... No
skeletons there...)
I don't think this is a sign of a community needing to "clean up its
act;" it shows some combination of:
- People quite willing to slur Red Hat Software picking yet another
excuse,
- A world with quite enough people with somewhat disturbing sexual
desires,
- The Linux community being visited by what is likely far more
commonplace in arenas where money and power walk hand in hand.
Note that if the Linux community grows to include wider varieties of
people that this probably implies that the users of Linux may
ultimately include people from such assortedly vilified groups as:
- People who "prefer to engage in sexual activity with people with
the same kinds of sexual equipment/receptacles"
- People who drink too much
- People who eat too much
- Men who beat their wives
- Women who beat their husbands
- People who pollute
- Pedophiles
- Thieves
- Murderers
- Secret police
- Abortionists
- Anti-abortionists
in much the same way that the community of users of Microsoft Windows
very probably includes members of all of these categories.
[Note: The Linux community probably *does* already include people in
most of these categories...]
--
"What is the purpose of a person acquiring perfect French pronunciation
if they have nothing of value to say in any language?" -- Walter Ong
cbbr...@hex.net- <http://www.ntlug.org/~cbbrowne/lsf.html>
Neil Cherry
>On 17 Mar 1999 19:45:03 -0000, Anonymous wrote:
I appologize for reposting this junk, for not trimming it and not
adding comments. I intended to cancel my psot and for some reason it
posted (and without my comments, wierd).
I'll try not to do that again (if I can figure out what I did).
Reality is a point of view
| Why this is being posted: I think the Linux community, which is, by Slashdot
| poll, 96% male, needs to clean up its act if its ever going to go mainstream.
| This is a stunning example of what needs to be cleaned up.
If true it is a sad story about the state of human interaction.
If not it was funny, in a bar blab sort of way, helping make up
for the destruction of the text based alt.sex.* newsgroups.
Is it true that Linus's wife is a karate champ? As if the
responsibilities of family weren't enough to keep him from the
cream of the groupies . . .
--
Gary Johnson gjoh...@season.com
Privacy on the net is still illegal.
John A. Limpert
Rob
wrote:
If this Michael Maher person is real I think it's only fair that this
"Doris" persons real name shown to the public as well....
And for this "Anonymous" thing that posted this you should
be...
1. Ashamed of yourself for spreading gossip
2. Not having a sense of humour.
I laughed many times when reading this. The guy's a very funny writer.
The best line was....
... and she was laying next to me. I finally fell asleep
after her discussing window managers. I was TIRED.
"What's Rasterman really like?"
ugh..
Heheh, a classic.
I've heard the term "techno-groupies" before; I'm somewhat surprised that
it's actually true...MasterPimp and SlutPuppy (Hackers4Girlies, they
hacked NYTimes website) said it in their Forbes magazine Interview.
"Chicks dig hackers." Or something to that effect...c'est la vie.
>I know exactly who 'Mike' is reffering to. Her initials are MLM and she is an
>acquired taste (but quite entertaining really). I beat her out for the 'Best Use
>of Vinyl Apparel' in a trade show award on /. Apparently Malda thought my pants
>were shinier than her corset. ;)
>
>Going for a little shock value is not a bad thing.
>
>And as far as his attitude towards ESR...I'll take his company over RMS, Young, or
>Perens anyday. You want to compalin about someone...spend thirty seconds with Sam
>Ockman and you'll pray for Percodan to fall from the heavens...
>
>Quite frankly, the attitude he gives has nothing to do with anything except being
>excessively male (of which I do not exempt myself). It doesn't have to be cleaned
>up, it just has to be spoken with discretion...something women are far better at
>than us boys...;
>
>mr. zenn
>
>Steve Gage wrote:
>
>> Anonymous wrote:
>> >
>> > Why this is being posted: I think the Linux community, which is, by Slashdot
>> > poll, 96% male, needs to clean up its act if its ever going to go mainstream.
>> > This is a stunning example of what needs to be cleaned up.
>>
;Art is something I'd like to look at and understand. I was at
;the Tate again, where they had a sort of biggish blue canvas
;and someone had taken a bicycle and ridden about all over it.
;That is art! The whole thing is incomprehensible and disastrous.
Sir Wilfrid Thesiger
Navindra Umanee
-N.
--
"These download files are in Microsoft Word 6.0 format. After unzipping,
these files can be viewed in any text editor, including all versions of
Microsoft Word, WordPad, and Microsoft Word Viewer." [Microsoft website]
< http://www.cs.mcgill.ca/~navindra/editors/ >
Rick Moen
: I know exactly who 'Mike' is reffering to. Her initials are [snip] ...
Oh, that's really cute, "Mr. Zenn": Obviously, the anonymous
poster was at some pains to conceal the identity of a young woman
whom Michael Maher just extensively maligned (including such lovely
terms as "whore", "slut", "dumb whore", and "horny slut", and suggesting
that she's a drug abuser), so _you_ decided to help matters out by
attempting to more precisely identify her for the newreading public.
So, you're some person named "J. Sarruda", correct? I just wanted to
make sure I had that correct, so I recognise you when I see you.
I'd hate to miss an opportunity to tell you in person exactly how
commendable your "help" is.
: Quite frankly, the attitude he gives has nothing to do with anything
: except being excessively male (of which I do not exempt myself).
Oh, of course. Committing slander perse by accusing a woman of prostitution
and other misdeeds, and generally committing a scummy act of character
assassination, isn't doing anything _wrong_, and just proves your
masculinity. Right. Sure.
On some other planet, maybe.
Remind me not to go there. I don't like losing my dinner, Sarruda, and
any planet full of people like you would put supper permanently at risk.
--
Cheers, Founding member of the Hyphenation Society, a grassroots-based,
Rick Moen not-for-profit, locally-owned-and-operated, cooperatively-managed,
rick (at) linuxmafia.com modern-American-English-usage-improvement association
(speaking for himself, alone)
Rick Moen
: If this Michael Maher person is real I think it's only fair that this
: "Doris" persons real name shown to the public as well....
So, Rob aka col...@hotmail.com, which one are you, Beavis or Butthead?
I mean, hotmail accounts without even _fake_ last names on them are
not exactly the last word in personal accountability, either. In
fact, I cannot help noticing that your odd line lengths, diction,
and vocabulary are amazingly like that those of, of all people,
Mr. Michael Maher of Red Hat Software, Inc.! Imagine that.
However, your logic, "Rob", is somewhat lacking, here. It wasn't
"Doris" who called someone a whore, slut, horny slut, and dumb
whore, was it?
: And for this "Anonymous" thing that posted this you should
: be...
: 1. Ashamed of yourself for spreading gossip
: 2. Not having a sense of humour.
Boy, you're a _real_ slimeball, aren't you?
: I laughed many times when reading this. The guy's a very funny writer.
Yes, a regular laugh riot -- since I'm sure you and he are soul mates,
if not something much closer. Such as possibly the guy he shaves.
Tell me something, are you planning to come out again in August?
That would be a bad career move, methinks.
Rick Moen
thoughtful comments, saying essentially that the anonymous post
proves there are some peculiar people out there, regardless of
how accurate it is.
In particular, he takes issue with the earlier poster's suggestion
that the anecdote is "a stunning example" of the 96%-male Linux community
needing "to clean up its act".
I probably agree with Christopher: It doesn't show a _community's_
scummy attitude towards women and willingness to grossly slander
particular individual women.
However, that misses the more important point, that it _does_ show
those traits being acted out by _one_ male individual in the Linux
community. Posting from his corporate e-mail account, and pervaded
by details of his deeds at that time as a representative of his
company.
Mr. Michael Maher _has_ confirmed that he did write that disturbing
and disgusting e-mail, by the way -- and quite a large number of
people, knowing that the young woman defamed in it is my personal
friend, have subsequently sent me unedited copies of Maher's original
broadcast e-mail, listing the multiple strangers to whom Maher
originally distributed it (what in libel law constitutes the element
of "publication").
The question is whether this is how Red Hat Software wants itself
represented to the world. My friend is a respected member of the
San Francisco Bay Area Linux community. She has now been grossly
maligned _from a redhat.com address_ to third parties. She may find
her career prospects blighted by this libel. She _certainly_ has had
her reputation dragged through the mud.
She's been called a dumb whore and a horny slut, and been subjected to
an assortment of other horrifying and demeaning allegations by this
person. Those allegations had already spread far and wide, long
before the anonymous poster sent this slightly edited version
to Usenet.
That is intolerable, and I _do_ think it eminently fair to hold Red Hat
Software, Inc. accountable. _That_ is the community that, if anyone,
desperately needs to clean up its act.
Kevin Huber
Great post except for the whining crap at the beginning. LOL.
Maybe if you wore vinyl, Michael might give you installation tips
too, if you know what I mean.
-Kevin
mlw
[gossip]
Here are some hard fast truths:
E-Mail is unreliable when attained without an audit trail. One can dummy
anything the like for routes and addresses.
People are scum. Male, Female, gay, straight, it doesn't matter. Add
people, alcohol and/or drugs, a sufficiently busy environment and sleazy
things will happen. Trade shows are a prime example.
As for the "old boys club" I am sick to death of this stereo type,
although I can (probably) legally claim Native American heritage, I do
have sufficient Irish and english blood to be the dreaded white male.
There is NO "old boys club" per se, at least not one I am aware of. I
have to deal with s%$%T just like every one else. I have yet to be in a
working environment where simply being white male is an advantage, all
to often it is a disadvantage. Perhaps too many people lack the personal
responsibility to cope with their own short comings.
There is a problem with political correctness and the current social
environment today. Professionally, I don't care what a person
is/does/looks/beleives/etc. as long as they do the job they say they can
do. If fewer women, blacks, Native Americans use Linux, that is not my
fault and not my responsibility. I can honestly say my ancestors (At
least the last 5 generations) have not benefited from oppression of any
kind. In fact, one whole segment of my family tree has been, for all
intent and purpose, wiped off the planet.
To everyone else, sorry for the rant, but for the person who posted the
message, get a life and grow up. If you want anything, there are always
obstacles, and our own obstacles always look worse than every one
else's. Deal with it.
Your post was nothing more than gossip and perhaps lies, and your
motivation was clearly nothing more than libel.
--
Mohawk Software
Windows 95, Windows NT, UNIX, Linux. Applications, drivers, support.
Take the Mohawk Software Computer Survey at: www.mohawksoft.com
jedi
>In comp.os.linux.advocacy Mr. Zenn <jsar...@ucdavis.edu> wrote:
>: I know exactly who 'Mike' is reffering to. Her initials are [snip] ...
>
>Oh, that's really cute, "Mr. Zenn": Obviously, the anonymous
>poster was at some pains to conceal the identity of a young woman
>whom Michael Maher just extensively maligned (including such lovely
>terms as "whore", "slut", "dumb whore", and "horny slut", and suggesting
>that she's a drug abuser), so _you_ decided to help matters out by
>attempting to more precisely identify her for the newreading public.
>So, you're some person named "J. Sarruda", correct? I just wanted to
>make sure I had that correct, so I recognise you when I see you.
>I'd hate to miss an opportunity to tell you in person exactly how
>commendable your "help" is.
>
>: Quite frankly, the attitude he gives has nothing to do with anything
>: except being excessively male (of which I do not exempt myself).
>
>Oh, of course. Committing slander perse by accusing a woman of prostitution
>and other misdeeds, and generally committing a scummy act of character
>assassination, isn't doing anything _wrong_, and just proves your
>masculinity. Right. Sure.
>
>On some other planet, maybe.
That rather depends on whether or not the characterization
is false, now doesn't it? That has yet to be shown.
>
>Remind me not to go there. I don't like losing my dinner, Sarruda, and
>any planet full of people like you would put supper permanently at risk.
Thank you verymuch for being our judge jury and executioner.
We really wouldn't know what to do without you...
--
"I was not elected to watch my people suffer and die |||
while you discuss this a invasion in committe." / | \
In search of sane PPP docs? Try http://penguin.lvcm.com
jedi
If that is indeed the case, THAT is more the problem than
anything else in this sad puritanical affair.
>her reputation dragged through the mud.
>
>She's been called a dumb whore and a horny slut, and been subjected to
>an assortment of other horrifying and demeaning allegations by this
>person. Those allegations had already spread far and wide, long
>before the anonymous poster sent this slightly edited version
>to Usenet.
That such allegations would have any adverse effect on
someone, especially someone's professional standing is
the real problem here.
>
>That is intolerable, and I _do_ think it eminently fair to hold Red Hat
>Software, Inc. accountable. _That_ is the community that, if anyone,
>desperately needs to clean up its act.
No, Americans simply need to collectively get a life
and stop acting as if we're all still living in Salem.
Craig Kelley
> Why this is being posted: I think the Linux community, which is, by
> Slashdot poll, 96% male, needs to clean up its act if its ever going
> to go mainstream. This is a stunning example of what needs to be
> cleaned up.
BFD.
Stop living vicariously.
[snip hilarious {probably fake} story]
PS: When the brain scanner comes out, let's put *YOU* to the test to
make sure that you are right as rain.
--
The wheel is turning but the hamster is dead.
Craig Kelley -- kell...@isu.edu
http://www.isu.edu/~kellcrai finger i...@inconnu.isu.edu for PGP block
Rick Moen
:>Oh, of course. Committing slander perse by accusing a woman of prostitution
:>and other misdeeds, and generally committing a scummy act of character
:>assassination, isn't doing anything _wrong_, and just proves your
:>masculinity. Right. Sure.
:>
:>On some other planet, maybe.
: That rather depends on whether or not the characterization
: is false, now doesn't it? That has yet to be shown.
Actually, no. Thank you for raising that subject. It would have
remained _extremely_ scummy behaviour, and a discredit to the employer
whose company account he posted from, even had our confessedly drunken-sot
reporter accidentally managed to hit something approaching the truth.
And calling her "whore" and "slut" to third parties was per-se slander,
in either event.
: Thank you verymuch for being our judge jury and executioner.
: We really wouldn't know what to do without you...
Oh, I'm not acting as any of those. I'm just wiping certain people from
the bottom of my shoes.
Thanks for sharing, anyway.
Rick Moen
: On 18 Mar 1999 11:19:29 GMT, Rick Moen <rick...@linuxmafia.com> wrote:
:>The question is whether this is how Red Hat Software wants itself
:>represented to the world. My friend is a respected member of the
:>San Francisco Bay Area Linux community. She has now been grossly
:>maligned _from a redhat.com address_ to third parties. She may find
:>her career prospects blighted by this libel. She _certainly_ has had
:>her reputation dragged through the mud.
: If that is indeed the case, THAT is more the problem than
: anything else in this sad puritanical affair.
Thank you for acknowledging that this is the real issue (but not,
of course, the way you intend). Yes, it is indeed the case.
: That such allegations would have any adverse effect on
: someone, especially someone's professional standing is
: the real problem here.
They indeed do. And the law says libel is illegal. _And_ business
ethics say that your company bears responsibility for acts like this.
: No, Americans simply need to collectively get a life
: and stop acting as if we're all still living in Salem.
Unfortunately, we have to live in the _real_, adult world, not in
your junior-high-school fantasies. Welcome to reality, kid. This
is a world where people have and need reputations, where calling
someone a "dumb whore" and "horny slut" to third parties is not OK,
and where once in a blue moon you just _might_ be held accountable
for your actions.
--
Cheers, Founding member of the Hyphenation Society, a grassroots-based,
Rick Moen not-for-profit, locally-owned-and-operated, cooperatively-managed,
rick (at) linuxmafia.com modern-American-English-usage-improvement association
(speaking for himself, alone)
Deirdre Saoirse
: wrote:
: If this Michael Maher person is real I think it's only fair that this
: "Doris" persons real name shown to the public as well....
Michael Maher is most assuredly real:
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To: Deirdre <dei...@deirdre.net>
Subject: Re: That awful letter from Michael Maher
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As for so-called "techno-groupies" well, no wonder there's so few women geeks.
You just think they're there for YOUR BENEFIT. LOL, well, it doesn't work like
that, so sorry.
_Deirdre
--
_Deirdre * http://disclaimer.deirdre.org * http://www.deirdre.net
<lextreme> whats Canada's biggest product?
<kady> sarcasm
Deirdre Saoirse
: That rather depends on whether or not the characterization
: is false, now doesn't it? That has yet to be shown.
You missed, as do most people, what "slander per se" is. It is something
considered so vile that one does not have to either a) disprove it or b)
demonstrate specific damages. Calling a woman a slut and/or a whore is, in
most states, slander per se *automatically.*
In other words, if you call a woman a slut to a third party, she can sue
AND WIN.
Important safety tip. IANAL of course.
I for one would like to see the Linux community join the 20th century
before it's over. However, my hopes are dimming.
Deirdre Saoirse
: Maybe if you wore vinyl, Michael might give you installation tips
: too, if you know what I mean.
No doubt our anon poster was a lesbian friend of mine who would rather
show Michael tips she learned from Lorena Bobitt. And, according to all
accounts, she is rather good with knives.
jedi
>In comp.os.linux.advocacy jedi <je...@dementia.mishnet> wrote:
>
>:>and other misdeeds, and generally committing a scummy act of character
>:>assassination, isn't doing anything _wrong_, and just proves your
>:>masculinity. Right. Sure.
>:>
>:>On some other planet, maybe.
>
>: is false, now doesn't it? That has yet to be shown.
>
>remained _extremely_ scummy behaviour, and a discredit to the employer
>whose company account he posted from, even had our confessedly drunken-sot
>reporter accidentally managed to hit something approaching the truth.
>
>And calling her "whore" and "slut" to third parties was per-se slander,
>in either event.
So, that still leaves one attempting to portray such
a creature as sympathetic in an enviroment populated
by people where those monikers become a problem.
>
>: Thank you verymuch for being our judge jury and executioner.
>: We really wouldn't know what to do without you...
>
>Oh, I'm not acting as any of those. I'm just wiping certain people from
>the bottom of my shoes.
Pot, meet kettle.
jedi
>In comp.os.linux.advocacy jedi <je...@dementia.mishnet> wrote:
>: That rather depends on whether or not the characterization
>: is false, now doesn't it? That has yet to be shown.
>
>considered so vile that one does not have to either a) disprove it or b)
>demonstrate specific damages. Calling a woman a slut and/or a whore is, in
>most states, slander per se *automatically.*
It shouldn't be surprising that the states are so
infantile that way. They really do have a long
Puritan tradition in that respect.
>
>In other words, if you call a woman a slut to a third party, she can sue
>AND WIN.
Actually, if you say it to her face it isn't slander any more.
>
>Important safety tip. IANAL of course.
>
>I for one would like to see the Linux community join the 20th century
>before it's over. However, my hopes are dimming.
...sounds more like they are slipping into the 17th...
jedi
>jedi <je...@dementia.mishnet> wrote:
>: On 18 Mar 1999 11:19:29 GMT, Rick Moen <rick...@linuxmafia.com> wrote:
>
>:>The question is whether this is how Red Hat Software wants itself
>:>represented to the world. My friend is a respected member of the
>:>San Francisco Bay Area Linux community. She has now been grossly
>:>maligned _from a redhat.com address_ to third parties. She may find
>:>her career prospects blighted by this libel. She _certainly_ has had
>:>her reputation dragged through the mud.
>
>: If that is indeed the case, THAT is more the problem than
>: anything else in this sad puritanical affair.
>
>Thank you for acknowledging that this is the real issue (but not,
>of course, the way you intend). Yes, it is indeed the case.
>
>: That such allegations would have any adverse effect on
>: someone, especially someone's professional standing is
>: the real problem here.
>
>They indeed do. And the law says libel is illegal. _And_ business
>ethics say that your company bears responsibility for acts like this.
However, that has yet to be established.
>
>: No, Americans simply need to collectively get a life
>: and stop acting as if we're all still living in Salem.
>
>Unfortunately, we have to live in the _real_, adult world, not in
>your junior-high-school fantasies. Welcome to reality, kid. This
>is a world where people have and need reputations, where calling
>someone a "dumb whore" and "horny slut" to third parties is not OK,
>and where once in a blue moon you just _might_ be held accountable
>for your actions.
Yes, a real adult world where all the stupid political
bullshit that started in middle school is alive and well.
If anyone is still trapped in that infantile mindset it
is you and the puritans that really deserved to be sued,
the ones doing the real damage in confusing personal
preferences and actions with professional competence.
The real damage here is not being done by the accused
libeler but by you and yours. The fellow with the big
mouth is just a nice scapegoat.
You're the one really still trapped in middle school.
Deirdre Saoirse
> On Thu, 18 Mar 1999 20:52:30 GMT, Deirdre Saoirse <dei...@deirdre.org> wrote:
> >You missed, as do most people, what "slander per se" is. It is something
> >considered so vile that one does not have to either a) disprove it or b)
> >demonstrate specific damages. Calling a woman a slut and/or a whore is, in
> >most states, slander per se *automatically.*
>
> It shouldn't be surprising that the states are so
> infantile that way. They really do have a long
> Puritan tradition in that respect.
Perhaps so, but the issue is that a) what Mike did was uncool; b) what
Redhat has done about it is not cool; c) the courts may have a long time
to deal with it.
I'm relatively certain that, if RedHat and Mike actually really *tried* to
repair the damages that were caused, a legal case might be avoided. What
I'm seeing however is more people who are affirming that a legal case is
not only unavoidable but a Good Thing.
> >In other words, if you call a woman a slut to a third party, she can sue
> >AND WIN.
>
> Actually, if you say it to her face it isn't slander any more.
Unless a third party is present.
> >I for one would like to see the Linux community join the 20th century
> >before it's over. However, my hopes are dimming.
>
> ...sounds more like they are slipping into the 17th...
That's because you yourself aren't living in the 20th century.
Deirdre Saoirse
> On 18 Mar 1999 19:54:58 GMT, Rick Moen <rick...@linuxmafia.com> wrote:
> >jedi <je...@dementia.mishnet> wrote:
> >They indeed do. And the law says libel is illegal. _And_ business
> >ethics say that your company bears responsibility for acts like this.
>
> However, that has yet to be established.
In a court yes, however Mike made it clear in his post that RedHat was
inseparable from what happened.
> Yes, a real adult world where all the stupid political
> bullshit that started in middle school is alive and well.
Accountability is bullshit?
> If anyone is still trapped in that infantile mindset it
> is you and the puritans that really deserved to be sued,
::snorting at the idea that Rick Moe is a puritan::
You *really* don't know him very well....
> the ones doing the real damage in confusing personal
> preferences and actions with professional competence.
No, that would be a whore's job, wouldn't it?
Mike seems to have put the two together rather well actually.
> The real damage here is not being done by the accused
> libeler but by you and yours. The fellow with the big
> mouth is just a nice scapegoat.
Well, let's watch you for the next few years and see how long it takes you
to Royally Fuck Up. Shouldn't be long. :)
Rick Moen
: So, that still leaves one attempting to portray such
: a creature as sympathetic in an enviroment populated
: by people where those monikers become a problem.
No, sir. Whether the young woman in question is "sympathetic"
or not is immaterial to this discussion. Not that I don't
intensely admire the non sequitur debate point as an art form.
:>Oh, I'm not acting as any of those. I'm just wiping certain people from
:>the bottom of my shoes.
: Pot, meet kettle.
You really _are_ from some other planet, aren't you?
Deirdre Saoirse
> All these figures "prove" is that 96% of Linux users, *who read Slashdot*
> and *who voted in the poll* are male. Female Linux users probably have
> better things to do than vote in Slashdot straw polls - such as actually
> *using* Linux instead of arguing about it with their on-line buddies. ;)
LOL, well, I often vote in /. polls and occasionally comment. I rarely
post to usenet though. But I use Linux far more. :)
IOW, Touche. :)
Deirdre Saoirse
> If this Michael Maher person is real I think it's only fair that this
> "Doris" persons real name shown to the public as well....
Mike! So nice of you to post via a hotmail account to spread your vitriol
(as I suggested in an email to you).
Or did they yank your company email?
> And for this "Anonymous" thing that posted this you should
> be...
> 1. Ashamed of yourself for spreading gossip
No, but you got to spread it all by yourself and you weren't ashamed.
> 2. Not having a sense of humour.
After all, you had such a sense of humor when you wrote it!
> I laughed many times when reading this. The guy's a very funny writer.
> The best line was....
I disagree. The concept of having a woman ask about one's favorite part of
the RedHat install process as pillow talk was clearly the funniest. Not to
mention completely incredible.
> ... and she was laying next to me. I finally fell asleep
> after her discussing window managers. I was TIRED.
This is the best line? Oh geez Mike.
> I've heard the term "techno-groupies" before; I'm somewhat surprised that
> it's actually true...
It's not, don't flatter yourself.
> MasterPimp and SlutPuppy (Hackers4Girlies, they
> hacked NYTimes website) said it in their Forbes magazine Interview.
> "Chicks dig hackers." Or something to that effect...c'est la vie.
Geek women like *clued* geek men. Alas, there are as dreadfully few of the
latter as of the former.
Rick Moen
: It shouldn't be surprising that the states are so
: infantile that way. They really do have a long
: Puritan tradition in that respect.
As opposed to _your_ home, Planet Puerile, where calling people dumb
whores and horny sluts behind their backs is a conventional ice-breaker
at parties.
:>In other words, if you call a woman a slut to a third party, she can sue
:>AND WIN.
: Actually, if you say it to her face it isn't slander any more.
Correct. That would merely be slimy. However, that is precisely
the point: Mr. Maher did _not_ do that, but rather said all those
things in a broadcast e-mail, from his company mailbox on company
servers.
Rick Moen
:>They indeed do. And the law says libel is illegal. _And_ business
:>ethics say that your company bears responsibility for acts like this.
: However, that has yet to be established.
In the sense that _law_ is what the courts do, yes. However, I did not
speak solely of law: I spoke of responsibility. Perhaps you've heard
mention of the concept?
: Yes, a real adult world where all the stupid political
: bullshit that started in middle school is alive and well.
I'm sure that on Planet Puerile, responsibility is _indeed_
classified as stupid political bullshit. QED.
: The real damage here is not being done by the accused
: libeler but by you and yours. The fellow with the big
: mouth is just a nice scapegoat.
Wait, you got that wrong. The wording you're supposed to use
at this point is "He's the _real_ victim, here!" It's in your
contract, fool.
jedi
>On Thu, 18 Mar 1999, jedi wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 18 Mar 1999 20:52:30 GMT, Deirdre Saoirse <dei...@deirdre.org> wrote:
>> >You missed, as do most people, what "slander per se" is. It is something
>> >considered so vile that one does not have to either a) disprove it or b)
>> >demonstrate specific damages. Calling a woman a slut and/or a whore is, in
>> >most states, slander per se *automatically.*
>>
>> infantile that way. They really do have a long
>> Puritan tradition in that respect.
>
>Redhat has done about it is not cool; c) the courts may have a long time
>to deal with it.
>
>I'm relatively certain that, if RedHat and Mike actually really *tried* to
>repair the damages that were caused, a legal case might be avoided. What
>I'm seeing however is more people who are affirming that a legal case is
>not only unavoidable but a Good Thing.
No, it just really demonstrates how immature this culture
really is that some idiot pissing in the wind would deserve
this much attention and require meddling on the part of the
state.
>
>> >In other words, if you call a woman a slut to a third party, she can sue
>> >AND WIN.
>>
>> Actually, if you say it to her face it isn't slander any more.
>
>Unless a third party is present.
Not at all.
>
>> >I for one would like to see the Linux community join the 20th century
>> >before it's over. However, my hopes are dimming.
>>
>> ...sounds more like they are slipping into the 17th...
>
>That's because you yourself aren't living in the 20th century.
It's not the century, it's the country and the pedigree.
jedi
>In comp.os.linux.advocacy jedi <je...@dementia.mishnet> wrote:
>
>: a creature as sympathetic in an enviroment populated
>: by people where those monikers become a problem.
>
>No, sir. Whether the young woman in question is "sympathetic"
>or not is immaterial to this discussion. Not that I don't
>intensely admire the non sequitur debate point as an art form.
There are going to be jurors involved after all.
>
>:>Oh, I'm not acting as any of those. I'm just wiping certain people from
>:>the bottom of my shoes.
>
>: Pot, meet kettle.
>
>You really _are_ from some other planet, aren't you?
That would certainly be a pleasant dellusion.
Unfortunately that is not the case. I am indeed
stuck here on Planet Middle School.
jedi
>On Thu, 18 Mar 1999, jedi wrote:
>
>> >jedi <je...@dementia.mishnet> wrote:
>
>> >They indeed do. And the law says libel is illegal. _And_ business
>> >ethics say that your company bears responsibility for acts like this.
>>
>> However, that has yet to be established.
>
>inseparable from what happened.
>
>> bullshit that started in middle school is alive and well.
>
For this stupid shit, yes.
Accountability should be placed with those
causing the direct effects and not some
random schmuck that might give them poor
motivations to cause real damage.
>
>> If anyone is still trapped in that infantile mindset it
>> is you and the puritans that really deserved to be sued,
>
>::snorting at the idea that Rick Moe is a puritan::
>
>You *really* don't know him very well....
He's certainly got part of it right.
>
>> the ones doing the real damage in confusing personal
>> preferences and actions with professional competence.
>
>No, that would be a whore's job, wouldn't it?
>
>Mike seems to have put the two together rather well actually.
>
>> The real damage here is not being done by the accused
>> libeler but by you and yours. The fellow with the big
>> mouth is just a nice scapegoat.
>
>Well, let's watch you for the next few years and see how long it takes you
>to Royally Fuck Up. Shouldn't be long. :)
You are starting to improve my opinion of lawyers in general.
Mr. Zenn
considered my post rather innocuous and quite frankly...I like 'Doris'. We spent
quite of bit of time together with ESR, and I think shes great.
That doesn't mean I have to:
a: take the post of the moron who obviously couldn't deal with someone of her depth
seriously (this is a bloody NG fer goodness sakes)
b: take myself all that seriously (I still think my post was rather innocuous, and
if someone can figure her identity out from the inits, then they probably knew who
she was in the first place, as she is a rather animated and unique person - easy to
spot)
And I am not going to apologize for making my quip about the male animal. I don't
necessarily sanction turbo alpha-male behaviour (as a matter of fact I find it
quite annoying); but I can still make an (apparently failed) sarcastic statement
about it.
Life is far too important to be taken seriously.
And as far as remembering me, you and I have met several times: at Chris DiBonas,
at Linuxworld, and at ALS; and we have always gotten along rather well (although
you never do seem to be able to remeber my name).
joseph s. arruda
Rick Moen wrote:
> In comp.os.linux.advocacy Mr. Zenn <jsar...@ucdavis.edu> wrote:
> : I know exactly who 'Mike' is reffering to. Her initials are [snip] ...
>
> Oh, that's really cute, "Mr. Zenn": Obviously, the anonymous
> poster was at some pains to conceal the identity of a young woman
> whom Michael Maher just extensively maligned (including such lovely
> terms as "whore", "slut", "dumb whore", and "horny slut", and suggesting
> that she's a drug abuser), so _you_ decided to help matters out by
> attempting to more precisely identify her for the newreading public.
>
> So, you're some person named "J. Sarruda", correct? I just wanted to
> make sure I had that correct, so I recognise you when I see you.
> I'd hate to miss an opportunity to tell you in person exactly how
> commendable your "help" is.
>
> : Quite frankly, the attitude he gives has nothing to do with anything
> : except being excessively male (of which I do not exempt myself).
>
> Oh, of course. Committing slander perse by accusing a woman of prostitution
> and other misdeeds, and generally committing a scummy act of character
> assassination, isn't doing anything _wrong_, and just proves your
> masculinity. Right. Sure.
>
> On some other planet, maybe.
>
> Remind me not to go there. I don't like losing my dinner, Sarruda, and
> any planet full of people like you would put supper permanently at risk.
>
> --
> Cheers, Founding member of the Hyphenation Society, a grassroots-based,
> Rick Moen not-for-profit, locally-owned-and-operated, cooperatively-managed,
> rick (at) linuxmafia.com modern-American-English-usage-improvement association
> (speaking for himself, alone)
Paul Taylor
>
> +---- nob...@drule.org wrote (17 Mar 1999 19:45:03 -0000):
> | Why this is being posted: I think the Linux community, which is, by Slashdot
> | poll, 96% male, needs to clean up its act if its ever going to go mainstream.
> | This is a stunning example of what needs to be cleaned up.
>
> If true it is a sad story about the state of human interaction.
As the saying goes, there are lies, damn lies, and statistics.
All these figures "prove" is that 96% of Linux users, *who read Slashdot*
and *who voted in the poll* are male. Female Linux users probably have
better things to do than vote in Slashdot straw polls - such as actually
*using* Linux instead of arguing about it with their on-line buddies. ;)
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Paul Taylor Veni, vidi, tici -
bir...@ozemail.com.au I came, I saw, I ticked.
Rick Moen
I'm sure we will continue to get along just fine in person, and I
will certainly attempt to remember your name, next time we meet.
However, you're wrong: This _is_ a serious matter. For reasons
amply described elsewhere. And helping people identify someone
whose name was omitted for obvious and compelling reasons is simply
a bad idea.
: And I am not going to apologize for making my quip about the
: male animal. I don't necessarily sanction turbo alpha-male
: behaviour [...].
That's more than good enough for me, and let's leave it at that.
Rick Moen
: On Thu, 18 Mar 1999 21:29:27 GMT, Deirdre Saoirse <dei...@deirdre.net> wrote:
:>Accountability is bullshit?
: For this stupid shit, yes.
: Accountability should be placed with those
: causing the direct effects and not some
: random schmuck that might give them poor
: motivations to cause real damage.
OK, so you simply blow off the notions of responsiblity and of
defamation of character, when you find them inconvenient. Noted.
But of course, that isn't necessarily of interest to anyone else.
Deirdre Saoirse
> You know Rick, if I personally offended you by my post I apologize, but I
> considered my post rather innocuous and quite frankly...I like 'Doris'.
> We spent quite of bit of time together with ESR, and I think shes great.
She is a nice person. So why did you have to out her?
> That doesn't mean I have to:
> a: take the post of the moron who obviously couldn't deal with someone
> of her depth seriously (this is a bloody NG fer goodness sakes)
Well, the point was more that the guy was a turd I believe. And not just a
personal turd, but one actually doing harm in the Linux community.
> And I am not going to apologize for making my quip about the male
> animal. I don't necessarily sanction turbo alpha-male behaviour (as a
> matter of fact I find it quite annoying); but I can still make an
> (apparently failed) sarcastic statement about it.
OK, I accept that it was an attempt at sarcasm and misinterpreted by both
Rick and myself. We've both been pretty appalled by the responses here.
> Life is far too important to be taken seriously.
> And as far as remembering me, you and I have met several times: at
> Chris DiBonas, at Linuxworld, and at ALS; and we have always gotten
> along rather well (although you never do seem to be able to remeber my
> name).
Heh, well, he *does* meet a lot of people. A lot more names than *I* can
remember but I'm name-impaired.
Christopher Browne
>In comp.os.linux.advocacy jedi <je...@dementia.mishnet> wrote:
>: is false, now doesn't it? That has yet to be shown.
>
>considered so vile that one does not have to either a) disprove it or b)
>demonstrate specific damages. Calling a woman a slut and/or a whore is, in
>most states, slander per se *automatically.*
My law course in university was literally Barnified (the QC that taught
it was named "Barney," and explicitly called it an "ornithological
wonder" of a course :-) ); I seem to remember that slander had to
represent a false statement in order to be actionable.
Or do I have it backwards, and that's true of libel, and *not* of
slander?
--
Would-be National Mottos:
USA: "There oughta' be a law!"
cbbr...@hex.net- <http://www.hex.net/~cbbrowne/lsf.html>
perr...@my-dejanews.com
cbbr...@hex.net wrote:
> On Thu, 18 Mar 1999 20:52:30 GMT, Deirdre Saoirse <dei...@deirdre.org> wrote:
> >In comp.os.linux.advocacy jedi <je...@dementia.mishnet> wrote:
> >: That rather depends on whether or not the characterization
> >: is false, now doesn't it? That has yet to be shown.
> >
> >You missed, as do most people, what "slander per se" is. It is something
> >considered so vile that one does not have to either a) disprove it or b)
> >demonstrate specific damages. Calling a woman a slut and/or a whore is, in
> >most states, slander per se *automatically.*
>
> My law course in university was literally Barnified (the QC that taught
> it was named "Barney," and explicitly called it an "ornithological
> wonder" of a course :-) ); I seem to remember that slander had to
> represent a false statement in order to be actionable.
And in order for there to be an award in any lawsuit, must not there be some
specific damages? Otherwise, what's the basis for determining the amount of
compensation?? There must be some damages, be it even emotional pain and
suffering.
Perry
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Donal K. Fellows
Deirdre Saoirse <dei...@deirdre.net> wrote:
> I'm relatively certain that, if RedHat and Mike actually really *tried* to
> repair the damages that were caused, a legal case might be avoided. What
> I'm seeing however is more people who are affirming that a legal case is
> not only unavoidable but a Good Thing.
I'm a little bit puzzled here. What makes you think that an action
taken against Red Hat in this case would be likely to succeed? IANAL,
but it looks very much to me like any case would be far better off
being taken against Mike only, even if that does mean that the maximum
level of damages is probably lower. Unless you're suggesting that:
a) Mike put out an official announcement on the matter from Red Hat.
b) Red Hat should censor each and every message sent by their
employees.
The first option is laughable, and the second repugnant.
Donal.
--
Donal K. Fellows http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~fellowsd/ fell...@cs.man.ac.uk
Department of Computer Science, University of Manchester, U.K. +44-161-275-6137
--
"And remember, evidence is nothing." - Stacy Strock <sp...@adisfwb.com>
Rick Moen
: And in order for there to be an award in any lawsuit, must not there be some
: specific damages?
Are you seriously suggesting that serious harm has not been done?
Under the circumstances, that would be a pretty outlandish assertion.
Rick Moen
: Or do I have it backwards, and that's true of libel, and *not* of
: slander?
Christopher, you may recall Michael Maher stating that the young woman
is a "whore" (among other things). That is indeed slander per se.
Christopher Browne
>jedi <je...@dementia.mishnet> wrote:
>: On Thu, 18 Mar 1999 21:29:27 GMT, Deirdre Saoirse
<dei...@deirdre.net> wrote:
>:>Accountability is bullshit?
>
>: For this stupid shit, yes.
>
>: Accountability should be placed with those
>: causing the direct effects and not some
>: random schmuck that might give them poor
>: motivations to cause real damage.
>
>OK, so you simply blow off the notions of responsiblity and of
>defamation of character, when you find them inconvenient. Noted.
>But of course, that isn't necessarily of interest to anyone else.
It's not too hard to evaluate "jedi's" maturity level.
--
"Besides a mathematical inclination, an exceptionally good mastery of
one's native tongue is the most vital asset of a competent programmer."
-- Edsger W.Dijkstra
cbbr...@hex.net- <http://www.ntlug.org/~cbbrowne/lsf.html>
Christopher Browne
>In comp.os.linux.advocacy Christopher Browne <cbbr...@news.hex.net> wrote:
>: Or do I have it backwards, and that's true of libel, and *not* of
>: slander?
>
>Christopher, you may recall Michael Maher stating that the young woman
>is a "whore" (among other things). That is indeed slander per se.
On the "Net of a Million Lies" (a *wonderfully* appropriate term for
describing Usenet, coined by Vernor Vinge in the book "A Fire Upon the
Deep") all that is clearly established is that:
- A posting containing seemingly slanderous material was posted on
Usenet.
- This posting contained header information suggesting that the posting
was produced by an individual employed by Red Hat Software.
I do not know with any measurable degree of certainty that Michael Maher
has stated anything.
What I know is that *someone* posted a message that claims to be a
message written by Michael Maher. That is a fairly different thing,
particularly as reflected off the notion of a "Net of a Million Lies."
As far as I am concerned, a *little* bit of skepticism is in order.
Usenet is not the world's most secure forum, and while it is reasonably
likely that the material presented "blackens" the formerly "good name"
of RHS, it is also reasonably possible that the material might represent
a further slur on RHS and the Michael Maher character by some third
party that could benefit from a nice "dung-flinging contest."
--
After watching my newly-retired dad spend two weeks learning how to make
a new folder, it became obvious that "intuitive" mostly means "what the
writer or speaker of intuitive likes." (Bruce Ediger, bed...@teal.csn.org,
in comp.os.linux.misc, on X the intuitiveness of a Mac interface.)
cbbr...@hex.net- <http://www.hex.net/~cbbrowne/sf.html>
Colin R. Day
> In comp.os.linux.advocacy Christopher Browne <cbbr...@news.hex.net> wrote:
>
> : Or do I have it backwards, and that's true of libel, and *not* of
> : slander?
>
> Christopher, you may recall Michael Maher stating that the young woman
> is a "whore" (among other things). That is indeed slander per se.
>
Excuse me, can you cite any statutes/cases involving slander per se? Does this
actually preclude truth as a defense? I'd be much more concerned about living
in a country where one cannot utter truths than I would be of having my
sexual pecadilloes broadcast on the internet.
>
> --
> Cheers, Founding member of the Hyphenation Society, a grassroots-based,
> Rick Moen not-for-profit, locally-owned-and-operated, cooperatively-managed,
> rick (at) linuxmafia.com modern-American-English-usage-improvement association
> (speaking for himself, alone)
--
Colin R. Day cd...@ix.netcom.com alt.atheist #1500
"The alleged short-cut to knowledge, which is faith, is only
a short circuit destroying the mind." Ayn Rand
Perry Pip
>In comp.os.linux.advocacy perr...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
>: And in order for there to be an award in any lawsuit, must not there be some
>: specific damages?
>
>Are you seriously suggesting that serious harm has not been done?
I was only responding to Diedre's statement that no damages are necessary.
>Under the circumstances, that would be a pretty outlandish assertion.
If 1) the claims made are truthful and 2) the perwson already has such
a reputation, then that wouldn't be outlandish at all.
If I called Son of Sam an evil psycho-killer, would that be slander, no.
would there be damages, no.
>--
>Cheers, Founding member of the Hyphenation Society, a grassroots-based,
>Rick Moen not-for-profit, locally-owned-and-operated, cooperatively-managed,
>rick (at) linuxmafia.com modern-American-English-usage-improvement association
>(speaking for himself, alone)
--
Show the code....or hit the road.
Perry Piplani www.open-systems.com
pe...@perrypip.com perrypip.netservers.com
Perry Pip
>In comp.os.linux.advocacy Christopher Browne <cbbr...@news.hex.net> wrote:
>
>: Or do I have it backwards, and that's true of libel, and *not* of
>: slander?
>
>Christopher, you may recall Michael Maher stating that the young woman
>is a "whore" (among other things). That is indeed slander per se.
And your basis for this claim is?? Is the word "whore" specifically
written in the laws??
Rick Moen
:>Under the circumstances, that would be a pretty outlandish assertion.
: If 1) the claims made are truthful and 2) the perwson already has such
: a reputation, then that wouldn't be outlandish at all.
I'm sorry, but a respected member of the San Francisco Bay Area Linux
community has just been called a whore and a slut. Are you having
difficulty grasping this? Do you presume to think that there is a
question of fact to settle?
I most sincerely hope not, sir, or we will definitely have words.
Aside from which, the statements _were_ per-se slander.
Completely aside from the question of responsibility, legal issues
aside.
_And_ all of this has been done from a corporate redhat.com address
(speaking of dodging responsibilities). I do not intend to forget that.
Rick Moen
: I do not know with any measurable degree of certainty that Michael Maher
: has stated anything.
: What I know is that *someone* posted a message that claims to be a
: message written by Michael Maher. That is a fairly different thing,
: particularly as reflected off the notion of a "Net of a Million Lies."
: As far as I am concerned, a *little* bit of skepticism is in order.
Your skepticism is, from your perspective, commendable and appropriate.
Mr. Michael Maher of Red Hat Software, Inc. _has_ confirmed that he
sent the original e-mail, and did so from his corporate "mi...@redhat.com"
address to multiple strangers (which constitutes the legal element of
"publication" in libel law). If you would like to examine this
confirmation, please contact me directly.
Rick Moen
: Excuse me, can you cite any statutes/cases involving slander per se?
Colin, I can recommend good legal researchers, if you would like to
hire some.
Rick Moen
: And your basis for this claim is?? Is the word "whore" specifically
: written in the laws??
Try Black's Law Dictionary. It'll be with the stuff about accusing
someone of having a loathsome disease and the other traditional per-se
slander items.
perr...@my-dejanews.com
Rick Moen <rick...@linuxmafia.com> wrote:
> In linux.redhat.misc Perry Pip <perr...@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
>
>
> : If 1) the claims made are truthful and 2) the perwson already has such
> : a reputation, then that wouldn't be outlandish at all.
>
> I'm sorry, but a respected member of the San Francisco Bay Area Linux
> community has just been called a whore and a slut. Are you having
> difficulty grasping this?
I'm having difficulty taking what you say for granted, which is what you seem
to expect me to do. I don't know you personally nor do I know the identity of
"Doris".
> Do you presume to think that there is a
> question of fact to settle?
Of course there is. That's what courts, judges and juries are for. Or do you
expect a jury to take also your words for granted.
> I most sincerely hope not, sir, or we will definitely have words.
Is that a threat?? Well...sue me.
> Aside from which, the statements _were_ per-se slander.
Not if the statements can be shown to be truthfull in a court.
> Completely aside from the question of responsibility, legal issues
> aside.
And if "Doris" behaved in such a way, doesn't she hold part of the
responsibility.
> _And_ all of this has been done from a corporate redhat.com address
> (speaking of dodging responsibilities). I do not intend to forget that.
Don't. But don't expect others to feel the way you do about the issue.
Reality is a point of view
| _And_ all of this has been done from a corporate redhat.com address
| (speaking of dodging responsibilities). I do not intend to forget that.
Is that where this issue will stop? At ill will hich
resurfaces from time to time?
Will there be any legal entanglements?
--
Gary Johnson gjoh...@season.com
Privacy on the net is still illegal.
Colin R. Day
> In linux.redhat.misc Colin R. Day <cd...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
> : Excuse me, can you cite any statutes/cases involving slander per se?
>
> Colin, I can recommend good legal researchers, if you would like to
> hire some.
>
> --
> Cheers, Founding member of the Hyphenation Society, a grassroots-based,
> Rick Moen not-for-profit, locally-owned-and-operated, cooperatively-managed,
> rick (at) linuxmafia.com modern-American-English-usage-improvement association
> (speaking for himself, alone)
If it's that arcane, I'd wonder.
Colin R. Day
> In linux.redhat.misc Perry Pip <perr...@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
>
> : And your basis for this claim is?? Is the word "whore" specifically
> : written in the laws??
>
> Try Black's Law Dictionary. It'll be with the stuff about accusing
> someone of having a loathsome disease and the other traditional per-se
> slander items.
>
How traditional, pre-First Amendment?
>
> --
> Cheers, Founding member of the Hyphenation Society, a grassroots-based,
> Rick Moen not-for-profit, locally-owned-and-operated, cooperatively-managed,
> rick (at) linuxmafia.com modern-American-English-usage-improvement association
> (speaking for himself, alone)
--
perr...@my-dejanews.com
Rick Moen <rick...@linuxmafia.com> wrote:
> In linux.redhat.misc Perry Pip <perr...@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
>
> : And your basis for this claim is?? Is the word "whore" specifically
> : written in the laws??
>
> Try Black's Law Dictionary. It'll be with the stuff about accusing
> someone of having a loathsome disease and the other traditional per-se
> slander items.
I see. And is there a *specific* law that refers to this particular
dictionary's definition of slander per-se? And does this law specifically
allow the accused to be held liable even if the statements can be shown to be
true. And in what jusrisdiction? North Carolina is where I believe Mike lives
and where he sent the email from.
Perry
--
> Cheers, Founding member of the Hyphenation Society, a grassroots-based,
> Rick Moen not-for-profit, locally-owned-and-operated, cooperatively-managed,
> rick (at) linuxmafia.com modern-American-English-usage-improvement
association
> (speaking for himself, alone)
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
Colin R. Day
> In linux.redhat.misc Perry Pip <perr...@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
>
> :>Under the circumstances, that would be a pretty outlandish assertion.
>
> : If 1) the claims made are truthful and 2) the perwson already has such
> : a reputation, then that wouldn't be outlandish at all.
>
> I'm sorry, but a respected member of the San Francisco Bay Area Linux
> community has just been called a whore and a slut. Are you having
> difficulty grasping this? Do you presume to think that there is a
> question of fact to settle?
>
> I most sincerely hope not, sir, or we will definitely have words.
>
> Aside from which, the statements _were_ per-se slander.
>
> Completely aside from the question of responsibility, legal issues
> aside.
>
> _And_ all of this has been done from a corporate redhat.com address
> (speaking of dodging responsibilities). I do not intend to forget that.
By these standards, Larry Flynt libeled (slandered?) Jerry Falwell per se.
The very outlandishness of Flynts's claims was used as a defense. Although
Falwell, as a well-known person, had a tougher case.
Now, has your friend lost her job? Have her acquaintances abandoned her?
Has her boyfriend/lover/significant other (if she has one) left her?
I'm not nominating Mr. Maher for Netizenof the Month, but you are not
clarifying the issues sufficiently.
>
>
> --
> Cheers, Founding member of the Hyphenation Society, a grassroots-based,
> Rick Moen not-for-profit, locally-owned-and-operated, cooperatively-managed,
> rick (at) linuxmafia.com modern-American-English-usage-improvement association
> (speaking for himself, alone)
--
Tim Smith
>Aside from which, the statements _were_ per-se slander.
As far as I can tell from "Prosser & Keeton on Torts" (which is not much,
since they say right at the start of the "defamation" section that the law
in this area is inconsistent and makes no sense) all that "slander per-se"
means is that no showing of *harm* is necessary in order to sue. That
doesn't mean you can't call someone a slut if its true. E.g., if I were
to call you a Republican, to prove slander or libel, you'd have to show
that calling you a Republican actually caused harm (you'd have to prove
some other things, too), whereas if I call you a slut, it is presumed that
this harms you. but you still have to prove any other elements of slander
or libel.
--Tim Smith
Chris Leahy
I find myself wondering if you folks might take this discussion to a different
arena.
perhaps
linux.redhat.lawsuits.legal-doubletalk
or maybe
screaming.linux-users.nastyfolks
This might not be the right group for you all to have your battles.
a word of advice...
"Sticks and stones....etc. etc."
Have a great day!
Love
Chris
Deirdre Saoirse
: I see. And is there a *specific* law that refers to this particular
: dictionary's definition of slander per-se? And does this law specifically
: allow the accused to be held liable even if the statements can be shown to be
: true. And in what jusrisdiction? North Carolina is where I believe Mike lives
: and where he sent the email from.
No, it's covered under English common law and therefore absorbed into our
legal system as so many things are.
North Carolina is, as can be evidenced by Michael Maher's behavior,
particularly backwards. You're welcome to do the legal research yourself
(www.findlaw.com is an excellent place to start).
And, pray tell, how are you going to demonstrate that a woman IS a whore? I
believe she would have to be paid for sex, right? If you couldn't demonstrate
that (and I guarantee you couldn't in the case of Doris), then the point about
truth vs. untruth is pretty much moot.
Y'all (you see, I too once lived in NC and therefore have the right to use the
phrase) can just sit and watch the trial if you like. As RedHat has done
nothing to try and resolve the issue, I'm relatively certain there will be
a lawsuit.
--
_Deirdre * http://www.linuxcabal.org * http://www.deirdre.net
Deirdre Saoirse
:>considered so vile that one does not have to either a) disprove it or b)
:>demonstrate specific damages. Calling a woman a slut and/or a whore is, in
:>most states, slander per se *automatically.*
: My law course in university was literally Barnified (the QC that taught
: it was named "Barney," and explicitly called it an "ornithological
: wonder" of a course :-) ); I seem to remember that slander had to
: represent a false statement in order to be actionable.
You missed the presumption part.
http://www.cyberlibel.com/defences.html
It is *exceedingly* difficult in a slander per se action to prove that
what you said was true.
: Or do I have it backwards, and that's true of libel, and *not* of
: slander?
In the case of libel or slander per se, having brought the lawsuit gives
a *presumption* that it is untrue. Michael Maher would have to PROVE that
Doris was in fact a whore and we all know that's not going to happen now
is it? (she's not after all, the vast majority of his story was MADE UP)
So she could indeed collect BigBucks.
perr...@my-dejanews.com
Deirdre Saoirse <dei...@deirdre.org> wrote:
> In comp.os.linux.advocacy perr...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> : I see. And is there a *specific* law that refers to this particular
> : dictionary's definition of slander per-se? And does this law specifically
> : allow the accused to be held liable even if the statements can be shown to
be
> : true. And in what jusrisdiction? North Carolina is where I believe Mike
lives
> : and where he sent the email from.
>
> No, it's covered under English common law and therefore absorbed into our
> legal system as so many things are.
And alot of English common law hasn't absorbed very well into our system.
> North Carolina is, as can be evidenced by Michael Maher's behavior,
> particularly backwards.
And at least some people in California, as evidenced by the the above
statement, are snobby as hell.
> You're welcome to do the legal research yourself
> (www.findlaw.com is an excellent place to start).
It's not my worry.
> And, pray tell, how are you going to demonstrate that a woman IS a whore? I
> believe she would have to be paid for sex, right? If you couldn't demonstrate
> that (and I guarantee you couldn't in the case of Doris), then the point about
> truth vs. untruth is pretty much moot.
One of the definitions of "whore", according to my Random House dictionary is
"any promiscuos woman". If she's slept around with but a few men it would be
easy to prove, especially if she's upset any of them. And you'd better
believe a "backward" North Carolina jury isn't gonna feel sorry for her if
that can be shown.
> Y'all (you see, I too once lived in NC and therefore have the right to use the
> phrase) can just sit and watch the trial if you like. As RedHat has done
> nothing to try and resolve the issue, I'm relatively certain there will be
> a lawsuit.
And so the subject line of this thread "What Your Red Hat Dollars Buy".
Settlements for frivilous lawsuits from opportunists in California. What a
shame.
Navindra Umanee
> _And_ all of this has been done from a corporate redhat.com address
> (speaking of dodging responsibilities). I do not intend to forget that.
Y'all really seem quite eager to stick it to Red Hat for the actions
of an individual. At least it was pretty clear from the story itself
that the actions involved an individual (though at one point "Doris"
was suspected of being a corporate spy) and not Red Hat.
I have to wonder what your real motivations are.
-N. (and please don't sue my university or affiliated companies for
this post as I don't speak for any of them)
--
"These download files are in Microsoft Word 6.0 format. After unzipping,
these files can be viewed in any text editor, including all versions of
Microsoft Word, WordPad, and Microsoft Word Viewer." [Microsoft website]
< http://www.cs.mcgill.ca/~navindra/editors/ >
Rick Moen
rick...@linuxmafia.com wrote (20 Mar 1999 22:07:24 GMT):
:> (speaking of dodging responsibilities). I do not intend to forget that.
: Is that where this issue will stop? At ill will hich
: resurfaces from time to time?
Actions having consequences _is_ an odd concept, I know. Not popular
on some parts of the Net, perhaps.
: Will there be any legal entanglements?
A strange question: That is not up to me.
Rick Moen
: Rick Moen <rick...@linuxmafia.com> wrote:
:>Aside from which, the statements _were_ per-se slander.
: As far as I can tell from "Prosser & Keeton on Torts" (which is not much,
: since they say right at the start of the "defamation" section that the law
: in this area is inconsistent and makes no sense) all that "slander per-se"
: means is that no showing of *harm* is necessary in order to sue.
That is correct.
However, if this forum has descended to the level of labeling a
respected member of the San Francisco Bay Area Linux community a "whore",
then it has made a self-evidently absurd charge, and I do not have to
wait for the matter to be adjudicated.
I really cannot believe the gall of some people.
Rick Moen
: By these standards, Larry Flynt libeled (slandered?) Jerry Falwell per se.
: The very outlandishness of Flynts's claims was used as a defense. Although
: Falwell, as a well-known person, had a tougher case.
Excuse me, but a respected member of the San Francisco Bay Area Linux
community is now being compared to _Larry Flynt_? You just have one
hell of a lot of gall, sir.
: Now, has your friend lost her job? Have her acquaintances abandoned her?
: Has her boyfriend/lover/significant other (if she has one) left her?
(1) Her private life is none of your damned business. (2) Her reputation
has been dragged through the mud and she has been grossly maligned. Her
career prospects may very welll have been damaged.
If you somehow cannot understand this, I'm sorry, but I have no time
or patience for convincing you.
: I'm not nominating Mr. Maher for Netizenof the Month, but you are not
: clarifying the issues sufficiently.
Your assumption that I have some obligation to "clarify issues" is in
error. I have simply made obvious and necessary observations on the
facts. You evidently did not like them. Have a nice day.
Rick Moen
: In article <7d166s$er$1...@myrddin.imat.com>,
: Rick Moen <rick...@linuxmafia.com> wrote:
:> I'm sorry, but a respected member of the San Francisco Bay Area Linux
:> community has just been called a whore and a slut. Are you having
:> difficulty grasping this?
: I'm having difficulty taking what you say for granted, which is what
: you seem to expect me to do.
Excuse me, but I do not think there can be any reasonable doubt at
this point about the facts. Mr. Michael Maher _has_ confirmed that
he sent the e-mail. It _does_ contain the epithets mentioned and
much more.
: I don't know you personally nor do I know the identity of "Doris".
Immaterial.
:> Do you presume to think that there is a question of fact to settle?
: Of course there is. That's what courts, judges and juries are for.
: Or do you expect a jury to take also your words for granted.
I meant, fool, as to your implication of my young friend being a
whore.
:> Aside from which, the statements _were_ per-se slander.
: Not if the statements can be shown to be truthfull in a court.
Idiot. You evidently have no comprehension of the meaning of per-se
slander. Try: http://www.cyberlibel.com/defences.html
:> Completely aside from the question of responsibility, legal issues
:> aside.
: And if "Doris" behaved in such a way, doesn't she hold part of the
: responsibility.
Ah, yes, the expected "He's the _real_ victim, here."
You know, Mr. "perr...@my-dejanews.com", you're a real piece of
work. And I'm curious as to why all the slimy defenders of Mr. Maher
all seem to be posting from effectively anonymous e-mail accounts.
:> _And_ all of this has been done from a corporate redhat.com address
:> (speaking of dodging responsibilities). I do not intend to forget that.
: Don't. But don't expect others to feel the way you do about the issue.
Only those with a minimal sense of decency.
Rick Moen
: Rick Moen <rick...@linuxmafia.com> wrote:
:> (speaking of dodging responsibilities). I do not intend to forget that.
: Y'all really seem quite eager to stick it to Red Hat for the actions
: of an individual.
Posting from his corporate redhat.com account a disgusting libel set
in part at a corporate party, pervaded by accounts of his doings at
the time as a company representative. Indeed.
: At least it was pretty clear from the story itself that the actions
: involved an individual (though at one point "Doris" was suspected of
: being a corporate spy) and not Red Hat.
"Suspected of being a corporate spy". Oh, that's rich.
And I'm sure the notion of ethical responsibility for one's employees
is indeed unpalatable to many.
: I have to wonder what your real motivations are.
When you have no other argument, attack the critic, eh?
--
Cheers, Founding member of the Hyphenation Society, a grassroots-based,
Rick Moen not-for-profit, locally-owned-and-operated, cooperatively-managed,
rick (at) linuxmafia.com modern-American-English-usage-improvement association
(speaking for himself, alone)
Rick Moen
: If it's that arcane, I'd wonder.
It's not arcane; it's just that your request to chew up a large amount
of my time was self-evidently absurd. But please do feel free to do
your own legal research. Or hire someone.
Sure, it costs a lot of money. But it's worth it. Or not.
Rick Moen
: I see. And is there a *specific* law that refers to this particular
: dictionary's definition of slander per-se? And does this law specifically
: allow the accused to be held liable even if the statements can be shown to be
: true. And in what jusrisdiction? North Carolina is where I believe Mike lives
: and where he sent the email from.
I'm sorry, but you seem to have confused me with someone paid to chase
down legal citations for you. If you are having a problem understanding
basic notions of tort law, there are people you can pay to explain it
to you.
Rick Moen
: One of the definitions of "whore", according to my Random House dictionary is
: "any promiscuos woman". If she's slept around with but a few men it would be
: easy to prove, especially if she's upset any of them.
Ah, so you've finally gotten around to suggesting that a respect member of
the San Francisco Bay Area Linux community is promiscuous and "sleeps
around". Congratulations! You have just won next year's Slime Award.
(This year's is already spoken for by Mr. Maher.)
I'd ask where to deliver it, except you obviously value your anonymity.
Navindra Umanee
> You know, Mr. "perr...@my-dejanews.com", you're a real piece of
> work. And I'm curious as to why all the slimy defenders of Mr. Maher
> all seem to be posting from effectively anonymous e-mail accounts.
Perry Pip is neither anonymous and nor, imho, a fool. He's the guy
who wrote gtksamba if you need a pointer.
An AC did begin this whole thing by posting a private email to Usenet
though. Wonder who that was. Certainly seems more intent on smearing
Red Hat publically than anything else.
-N.
Deirdre Saoirse
: An AC did begin this whole thing by posting a private email to Usenet
: though. Wonder who that was. Certainly seems more intent on smearing
: Red Hat publically than anything else.
Insofar as it had bee widely circulated, it was hardly private. And why
shouldn't RedHat get smeared publically if they tolerate this kind of
behavior? After all, Maher DOES assert that it was his RedHat business
card that got him (supposedly) laid....
_Deirdre * http://www.linuxcabal.org * http://www.deirdre.net
"During my service in the United States Congress, I took the initiative in
creating the Internet." -- Al Gore
"If Al Gore invented the internet, I invented spell check." -- Dan Quayle
Deirdre Saoirse
: that the actions involved an individual (though at one point "Doris"
: was suspected of being a corporate spy) and not Red Hat.
Well, I could always post the reactions of Bob Young (via private email),
but that would be tacky. Then again, I might just put up the whole saga on
a web page for sport.
--
Perry Pip
>In linux.redhat.misc perr...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>: In article <7d166s$er$1...@myrddin.imat.com>,
>: Rick Moen <rick...@linuxmafia.com> wrote:
>
>:> I'm sorry, but a respected member of the San Francisco Bay Area Linux
>:> community has just been called a whore and a slut. Are you having
>:> difficulty grasping this?
>
>: I'm having difficulty taking what you say for granted, which is what
>: you seem to expect me to do.
>
>Excuse me, but I do not think there can be any reasonable doubt at
>this point about the facts. Mr. Michael Maher _has_ confirmed that
>he sent the e-mail. It _does_ contain the epithets mentioned and
>much more.
That still does not mean you're freind is not a whore? Maybe she is.
Maybe she isn't. Why are you so arrogant you expect me to take your
testimony of her character for granted.
>: I don't know you personally nor do I know the identity of "Doris".
>
>Immaterial.
>
It's not at all immaterial to the fact that I don't take what you say for
granted. Do you take every thing strangers say for granted?? Why do you
expect me to. Your entire position on this issue seems rather susupicious.
>:> Do you presume to think that there is a question of fact to settle?
>
>: Of course there is. That's what courts, judges and juries are for.
>: Or do you expect a jury to take also your words for granted.
>
>I meant, fool, as to your implication of my young friend being a
>whore.
How do I know she isn't?? I'm not saying either way.
>:> Aside from which, the statements _were_ per-se slander.
>
>: Not if the statements can be shown to be truthfull in a court.
>
>Idiot. You evidently have no comprehension of the meaning of per-se
>slander. Try: http://www.cyberlibel.com/defences.html
This web pages says that "truth" is an acceptable defense in such cases.
If it can be shown that "Doris" sleeps around, she loses the case.
>:> Completely aside from the question of responsibility, legal issues
>:> aside.
>
>: And if "Doris" behaved in such a way, doesn't she hold part of the
>: responsibility.
>
>Ah, yes, the expected "He's the _real_ victim, here."
Maybe. Maybe not. It seems from Mikes story that he was victimized by
"Doris". She promiscuously chased after him. He tried to get rid of her on
serveral occasions but she kept on sticking to him. Mike was concserned
about the impression this would make about him in front of his managers.
He may have feared losing his job. Under these circumstance, he may have
been under duress when he wrote the letter. That too is an acceptable
defense as the duress would have been caused by "Doris".
>You know, Mr. "perr...@my-dejanews.com", you're a real piece of
>work. And I'm curious as to why all the slimy defenders of Mr. Maher
>all seem to be posting from effectively anonymous e-mail accounts.
>
I use an anonymous email on usenet to prevent SPAM. Many people do that.
Here is my identity:
Perry Piplani
517 Harvard St.
Houston Tx.
My emails
pe...@NOSPAM.perrypip.com -- personal
pe...@NOSPAM.open-systems.com -- professional
I am not a defender of Mike. I'm just trying to be objective. It's pretty
obvious you have a strong attachment to "Doris" and therefore can't be
objective. It's also obvious what motivation people would have to sue
Redhat. Money.
>:> _And_ all of this has been done from a corporate redhat.com address
>:> (speaking of dodging responsibilities). I do not intend to forget that.
>
>: Don't. But don't expect others to feel the way you do about the issue.
>
>Only those with a minimal sense of decency.
>
Be careful what you say about people, Rick. Someone might sue you for
slander.
Perry
Perry Pip
>In linux.redhat.misc perr...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
>: dictionary's definition of slander per-se? And does this law specifically
>: allow the accused to be held liable even if the statements can be shown to be
>: true. And in what jusrisdiction? North Carolina is where I believe Mike lives
>: and where he sent the email from.
>
>I'm sorry, but you seem to have confused me with someone paid to chase
>down legal citations for you. If you are having a problem understanding
>basic notions of tort law, there are people you can pay to explain it
>to you.
No, you're the one making claims you can't back up.
Perry
Greg Menke
I think that the people fussing over this issue really need to get
lives- so someone said something in poor taste... BFD - and who really
cares anyway?
Gregm
Perry Pip
>In linux.redhat.misc perr...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
>: "any promiscuos woman". If she's slept around with but a few men it would be
>: easy to prove, especially if she's upset any of them.
>
>Ah, so you've finally gotten around to suggesting that a respect member of
>the San Francisco Bay Area Linux community is promiscuous and "sleeps
>around".
How am I supposed to know either way? Am I supposed to take what you say
for granted??
For that matter how do *you* know?? Do you spend all your time with her??
Maybe you don't want to know.
>Congratulations! You have just won next year's Slime Award.
>(This year's is already spoken for by Mr. Maher.)
>
>I'd ask where to deliver it, except you obviously value your anonymity.
Here is my name and address:
Perry Piplani
517 Harvard St.
Houston, Tx, 77007
Keep in mind that in Texas, if you tresspass on my property, I can shoot
you with no questions asked. Not even a grand jury hearing.
Perry
Rick Moen
: That still does not mean you're freind is not a whore? Maybe she is.
: Maybe she isn't.
You, sir, have just crossed the Rubicon.
: Maybe. Maybe not. It seems from Mikes story that he was victimized by
: "Doris".
And you are a scumbag. I do not care what software you are supposed
to have written. You have just thrown yourself in the company of
a man who casts around loose accusations of being a "whore" and a
"slut". Enjoy the association.
: Be careful what you say about people, Rick. Someone might sue you for
: slander.
Rick Moen
744 Harrison
San Francisco, CA 94107-1235
Sue and be damned.
Rick Moen
: Perry Pip is neither anonymous and nor, imho, a fool. He's the guy
: who wrote gtksamba if you need a pointer.
Ah well. Just acts that way, I guess. We had a fellow posting earlier
from han effectively anonymous hotmail.com account whose diction,
90-to-100-column line lengths, tone, and vocabulary were remarkably
like that of Mr. Michael Maher, which is what put me in mind of that.
: An AC did begin this whole thing by posting a private email to Usenet
: though.
No, actually, mi...@redhat.com began this by extensively maligning my
young friend to a whole load of people.
: Certainly seems more intent on smearing Red Hat publically than
: anything else.
The only things said about Red Hat Software have been verifiably
true: (1) That its employee sent out his lurid and scurrilous story
about a respected Bay Area Linux user from his corporate mailbox,
and (2) that it's aware of this and has elected to do and say nothing.
If you feel that's fine, you're welcome to your view. I do not.
doug
>
> In linux.redhat.misc Perry Pip <perr...@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
>
> : That still does not mean you're freind is not a whore? Maybe she is.
> : Maybe she isn't.
>
> You, sir, have just crossed the Rubicon.
>
> : Maybe. Maybe not. It seems from Mikes story that he was victimized by
> : "Doris".
>
> And you are a scumbag. I do not care what software you are supposed
> to have written. You have just thrown yourself in the company of
> a man who casts around loose accusations of being a "whore" and a
> "slut". Enjoy the association.
Rick,
Speaking of associations, I can see some parallels beginning to
surface between the behavior your posts are about and your own.
Additionally, I wanted to present to those following this thread
this link.
http://www10.nytimes.com/library/tech/98/11/cyber/cyberlaw/06law.html
Mr. Zenn
Perry Pip wrote:
> On 22 Mar 1999 16:57:49 GMT, Rick Moen <rick...@linuxmafia.com> wrote:
>
> >:> I'm sorry, but a respected member of the San Francisco Bay Area Linux
> >:> community has just been called a whore and a slut. Are you having
> >:> difficulty grasping this?
> >
> >: I'm having difficulty taking what you say for granted, which is what
> >: you seem to expect me to do.
> >
> >Excuse me, but I do not think there can be any reasonable doubt at
> >this point about the facts. Mr. Michael Maher _has_ confirmed that
> >he sent the e-mail. It _does_ contain the epithets mentioned and
> >much more.
>
> That still does not mean you're freind is not a whore? Maybe she is.
> Maybe she isn't. Why are you so arrogant you expect me to take your
> testimony of her character for granted.
I think part of it is that the post was insulting (granted, some of us are less
sensitive to it from ages of NG flame wars, as some of my own initial posts may
indicate) and Mr. Moen happens to know 'Doris' personally. As a friend of
someone else, there is always the need to assist in righting a wrong (for lack
of a better phrase) in the same public forum that bore it initially.
> 1<snip>
>
> I am not a defender of Mike. I'm just trying to be objective.
And I applaud that. But I can also see why people who do in fact know her
personally or professionally would come to her defence.
I'm sure I am considered a respected member of at least one of the several
organizations I belong to ;)
But I am also sure that I also have a good gallery of people who hate my guts,
or think I'm (place 'slanderous' moniker here). As it has not affected me as of
yet personally or professionally in any tangible way, I suppose I don't really
think about it much. However, if 'Doris' has been affected in such a way, I can
see why the reaction is so terse.
> <snip>
> >
> >: Don't. But don't expect others to feel the way you do about the issue.
> >
> >Only those with a minimal sense of decency.
> >
>
> Be careful what you say about people, Rick. Someone might sue you for
> slander.
touche....
> Perry
mr. zenn
Mr. Zenn
Perry Pip wrote:
> On Mon, 22 Mar 1999 21:34:18 -0800, Mr. Zenn <jsar...@ucdavis.edu> wrote:
> >Perry Pip wrote:
>
> >> I am not a defender of Mike. I'm just trying to be objective.
>
> >And I applaud that. But I can also see why people who do in fact know her
> >personally or professionally would come to her defence.
>
> And slander not only Mike and Redhat, but anyone else that doesn't totally
> see it exactly their way?? That, IMHO, is pretty obnoxious,
Easy turbo, I'm making an observation...not taking sides here. The term
slander seems to be bandied about here quite often...
calling people 'whore' or 'scumbag' is not my idea of making nice in any
respect, regardless of who is doing it.
mr.zenn
>
>
> Perry
Rick Moen
: Speaking of associations, I can see some parallels beginning to
: surface between the behavior your posts are about and your own.
Oh, yes: There's a tremendous, compelling moral equivalence between
those who call people "sluts" and "whores" and those who object to
such behaviour. Thank you for pointing that out.
: Additionally, I wanted to present to those following this thread
: this link.
: http://www10.nytimes.com/library/tech/98/11/cyber/cyberlaw/06law.html
To the effect that Internet service providers should not be held
accountable for _subscribers'_ online behaviour.
Possibly so. However, that is not what we have, here: This is
a matter of an _employee_ posting from his corporate account, and in
various other ways involving his company. Which, like it or not, raises
issues of company ethics -- which the company has seen fit to ignore.
Please note followups.
Colin R. Day
> In linux.redhat.misc Colin R. Day <cd...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
> : By these standards, Larry Flynt libeled (slandered?) Jerry Falwell per se.
> : The very outlandishness of Flynts's claims was used as a defense. Although
> : Falwell, as a well-known person, had a tougher case.
>
> Excuse me, but a respected member of the San Francisco Bay Area Linux
> community is now being compared to _Larry Flynt_? You just have one
> hell of a lot of gall, sir.
>
Actually, I was comparing her to Falwell.
>
> : Now, has your friend lost her job? Have her acquaintances abandoned her?
> : Has her boyfriend/lover/significant other (if she has one) left her?
>
> (1) Her private life is none of your damned business. (2) Her reputation
> has been dragged through the mud and she has been grossly maligned. Her
> career prospects may very welll have been damaged.
>
Sorry, I shouldn't have made it sound like I wanted you to broadcast this. In
the privacy of your mind, ask yourself why prospective employers would
treat her differently.
>
> If you somehow cannot understand this, I'm sorry, but I have no time
> or patience for convincing you.
>
Then why did you post in the first place?
>
> : I'm not nominating Mr. Maher for Netizenof the Month, but you are not
> : clarifying the issues sufficiently.
>
> Your assumption that I have some obligation to "clarify issues" is in
> error. I have simply made obvious and necessary observations on the
> facts. You evidently did not like them. Have a nice day.
>
>
> --
> Cheers, Founding member of the Hyphenation Society, a grassroots-based,
> Rick Moen not-for-profit, locally-owned-and-operated, cooperatively-managed,
> rick (at) linuxmafia.com modern-American-English-usage-improvement association
> (speaking for himself, alone)
--
Colin R. Day cd...@ix.netcom.com alt.atheist #1500
"The alleged short-cut to knowledge, which is faith, is only
a short circuit destroying the mind." Ayn Rand
Perry Pip
>Rick Moen <rick...@linuxmafia.com> wrote:
>Perry Pip is neither anonymous and nor, imho, a fool.
Err um ... I can be a fool sometimes (like anybody). For example when I
engage in a debate with someone who is obviously extremely biased to the
point of total irrationality.
Considering all the money Redhat puts into developement for Gnome, KDE,
RPM, X and other things it's too bad some of it will have to diverted into
into legal fees, settlements, etc. etc. Oh well...that's life when your
successful:)
Perry
Colin R. Day
> In linux.redhat.misc Colin R. Day <cd...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
> : If it's that arcane, I'd wonder.
>
> It's not arcane; it's just that your request to chew up a large amount
> of my time was self-evidently absurd. But please do feel free to do
> your own legal research. Or hire someone.
>
> Sure, it costs a lot of money. But it's worth it. Or not.
>
If it takes that much time, then I would say that it's arcane.
Perry Pip
>Perry Pip wrote:
>> I am not a defender of Mike. I'm just trying to be objective.
>And I applaud that. But I can also see why people who do in fact know her
>personally or professionally would come to her defence.
And slander not only Mike and Redhat, but anyone else that doesn't totally
see it exactly their way?? That, IMHO, is pretty obnoxious,
Perry
Rick Moen
: If it takes that much time, then I would say that it's arcane.
Sorry I failed to make this clear: I would not do free legal research
for _anyone_ who "asked" in that fashion, regardless of time required.
--
Cheers, "By reading this sentence, you agree to be bound by the
Rick Moen terms of the Internet Protocol, version 4, or, at your
rick (at) linuxmafia.com option, any later version." -- Seth David Schoen
(speaking for himself, alone)
Rick Moen
:> : Now, has your friend lost her job? Have her acquaintances abandoned her?
:> : Has her boyfriend/lover/significant other (if she has one) left her?
:>
:> (1) Her private life is none of your damned business. (2) Her reputation
:> has been dragged through the mud and she has been grossly maligned. Her
:> career prospects may very welll have been damaged.
: Sorry, I shouldn't have made it sound like I wanted you to broadcast this. In
: the privacy of your mind, ask yourself why prospective employers would
: treat her differently.
Wrong question. The important fact is that they _do_: Reputation
matters, and libel hurts people.
:> If you somehow cannot understand this, I'm sorry, but I have no time
:> or patience for convincing you.
: Then why did you post in the first place?
For the benefit of fair-minded people who read the group, obviously.
--
Cheers, "By reading this sentence, you agree to be bound by the
Rick Moen terms of the Internet Protocol, version 4, or, at your
rick (at) linuxmafia.com option, any later version." -- Seth David Schoen
(speaking for himself. alone)
Richard Steiner
spake unto us, saying:
>The only things said about Red Hat Software have been verifiably
>true: (1) That its employee sent out his lurid and scurrilous story
>about a respected Bay Area Linux user from his corporate mailbox,
>and (2) that it's aware of this and has elected to do and say nothing.
PMFJI, but if I were Red Hat, I wouldn't say a darn thing until I know
precisely what the situation was. And until I had consulted with legal
council about my options if the situation warranted such consultation.
I don't know that equating silence with an official sanctioning of the
alleged actions is a reasonable conclusion.
--
-Rich Steiner >>>---> rste...@visi.com >>>---> Bloomington, MN
OS/2 + Linux (Slackware+RedHat+SuSE) + FreeBSD + Solaris + BeOS +
WinNT4 + Win95 + PC/GEOS + MacOS + Executor = PC Hobbyist Heaven!
Guns don't kill people - GOD kills people!
Donal K. Fellows
Rick Moen <rick...@linuxmafia.com> wrote:
> However, if this forum has descended to the level of labeling a
> respected member of the San Francisco Bay Area Linux community a
> "whore", then it has made a self-evidently absurd charge, and I do
> not have to wait for the matter to be adjudicated.
Speaking purely at a theoretical level (and most definitely not with
close reference to the merits of this particular incident) it is
perfectly OK, though admittedly unlikely, for a whore to also be a
respected member of the global Linux user community. Anything else is
clearly unwarranted discrimination and prejudice.[*]
Given that this is the case, ths defence you are using in your
paragraph above is, unfortunately from your point of view, rather
weak. More thought and less viputeration will help you tremendously
in this matter.
> I really cannot believe the gall of some people.
If you, or someone closely connected with you, are going to sue, then
do so. And shut up in all public forums on the matter lest it
significantly prejudice the case, as courts can be rather funny like
that.
Taking legal action is not always the wisest course. Macdonalds can
tell you all about *that*...
Donal.
[* I do not want any part of any organisation or formal or informal
association of organisations that promotes discrimination against
people on such grounds. ]
--
Donal K. Fellows http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~fellowsd/ fell...@cs.man.ac.uk
Department of Computer Science, University of Manchester, U.K. +44-161-275-6137
--
"And remember, evidence is nothing." - Stacy Strock <sp...@adisfwb.com>
Rick Moen
[...]
: I don't know that equating silence with an official sanctioning of the
: alleged actions is a reasonable conclusion.
To be sure.
And, if the situation changes, my view probably will, too.
Rick Moen
: Speaking purely at a theoretical level (and most definitely not with
: close reference to the merits of this particular incident) it is
: perfectly OK, though admittedly unlikely, for a whore to also be a
: respected member of the global Linux user community. Anything else is
: clearly unwarranted discrimination and prejudice.[*]
Oh, for _chrissakes_. Where in Gehenna are we _getting_ these people
from?
If it'll help avert such flights of fancy, by all means do start
anchoring yourself to the merits of the particular incident.
: Given that this is the case,....
No, I _really_ don't think so.
: If you, or someone closely connected with you, are going to sue, then
: do so. And shut up in all public forums on the matter lest it
: significantly prejudice the case, as courts can be rather funny like
: that.
I am glad to verify that I am not a party to any contemplated
litigation, on any matter whatsoever, in any capacity whatsoever.
Thank you _ever_ so much for your advice, though.
--
Cheers, "By reading this sentence, you agree to be bound by the
Rick Moen terms of the Internet Protocol, version 4, or, at your
rick (at) linuxmafia.com option, any later version." -- Seth David Schoen
(speaking for himself, alone)
Perry Pip
>You, sir, have just crossed the Rubicon.
Uhm...Toto...does this mean we're not in Kansas anymore??
>And you are a scumbag.
Uh..hum.
>Rick Moen
>744 Harrison
>San Francisco, CA 94107-1235
>
>Sue and be damned.
>
For what?? Your piddley welfare check?? Please...